By | March 2, 2013 75 Comments

A cry for help and understanding for sons with mental illnesses

Miles O’Brien, science correspondent for PBS Newshour and NOVA, conducts video interviews with two parents who reveal the struggles they endure because of the actions of their sons.

Jeff Williams is the father of Andy Williams, who was convicted of killing two classmates and injuring 13 others. Liza Long is the mother of a boy who has threatened to harm others as a result of his mental illness. In her tearful interview, Long seeks help for both her and her son in dealing with his condition. The most compelling aspects of this story are the video interviews O’Brien conducts with both boys.

Sins of the Sons on

Story suggested by a Lovefraud reader.

Comment on this article

Please Login to comment
Notify of

That kid annoyed me severely. I’m just saying..
I’m not sure what’s going on there, spathlet

Ox Drover

When the child you love is “defective” in any way, be it born with some major physical deformity, mental retardation, mental illness, or becomes a psychopath, it hurts the parent. But when the child has an “invisible” defect, that can’t be detected visually, or worse, has a “MORAL DEFECT” a nurturing parent, a parent who has done the best they can to raise a morally upright child, suffers the “slings and arrows” of the family and the community.

When Jessica Witt was murdered by my son, I imagine the friends and neighbors came by to console the family, brought caseroles and comfort. At the time that was going on, no one brought me solace and I had also lost a child that day, and believe me, I would have traded places with Jessica’s mother, and had my son in a casket and her daughter in prison for his murder. It would have been easier on me at least. I can’t know what her choice would have been, but in either case, a child was lost, a family grieved.

My son is not “mentally ill” he does not as far as I know have bi-polar or anything else that might account as a “mental illness” but he morally corrupt and without conscience. He KNOWS right from wrong, but just doesn’t care. I too am “Adam Lanza’s mother” though my son has “only” killed once (at this point)

But I am not alone in being bereft of the child I loved, and unconsoled by the world at large, and learning to “cope” with that has been difficult. I finally came to grips with my loss of my son, and do not “blame” myself for what he is, he may have had bad DNA that I passed on from my own family, but I also have some of that DNA and I’m not a psychopath…he had a choice at some point and he made his choices…he did not have to rob, he did not have to kill. He chose to do that. Yet the community still blames the sins of the children on the parents.


OxD, i cconcur. How I can relate with you. I don’t know if you remember me posting in a different thread about my son, but I too have had to grieve the loss of my son. Back in the day, when I was married to my children’s father, at 10 years old my son stood at the window, while he watched his father get handcuffed, arrested and taken away for aggravated rape. He is my only son and that day, forever changed him. From that day forward, he was no longer the happy go lucky little boy that I loved dearly. His bright and shiny personality, became dark, sullen and introverted. Unfortunately, it completely changed his personality, and he was never the same. I have learned to live with it over the years, but to this day when I think of my son, I still cry for my lost little boy.


I did try as hard as I could to help him as much as I could, but could never pierce through his deep seeded anger. Anger at everything, anger and his father, but to no avail, nothing worked. My son grew up broken, and he is still broke to this day. He lives somewhere in Texas, I don’t really even know where. He does call me from time to time, but he turned out to be an alcoholic, a prescription drug abuser, and he floats from person to person to live with them, because he is a bum. OxD, Although our sons situations are a bit different, For what its worth, I know how you feel…….:(

Ox Drover


Part of your son’s problem may be the DNA of his father, but like my son, he HAD CHOICES. It is hard for us to accept that there was nothing we could do to change those choices. My other biological son, C., isn’t a psychopath and he isn’t a bum, he works hard, but he isn’t reliable and consistently truthful, so I don’t have a real relationship with him either. I wish things were different for both of us but accepting that we cannot change THEIR CHOICES is the best we can do.



I have not found a single book re: the normal parents of psychopathic children. I think it would be really helpful. There are many of us & keep it secret because we’re wrongly blamed by society.


Ox and Radar…… I’m sorry for my comment. After reading your posts it seems callous. Clearly you have both suffered something I have no familiarity with, except with my spath bro to a certain extent.

My God, life is so tragic in so many ways that just can’t be explained. We are so fragile. Spaths are broken in some way that can’t be fixed. I wish it were different. We all have broken pieces and I just can’t understand why some have it buried under a pile of shit…..why would anyone want to live not caring. I guess that is a somewhat rhetorical question.
I think one of the things that kept me hooked to Spath was being able to see the little boy who was wounded so deeply that he became what he is. It is a choice to some degree for all of us but, when the damage is done at such an early age and the compensation gets ingrained in the personality very early on……and then sometimes, a parent enables that trait for their own selfish dysfunctional reasons ( XSpath and Spath bro ), the ability to choose differently is all but lost. The personality develops around the injury like a tree grows around a nail driven into it…..the brain chemistry changes, etc, etc, etc……’s all they/we know and it’s gotten us this far. I think the only hope after a certain point is Devine intervention.
Love to you both,


One thing I will say…….I KNOW my mother and father were completely unaware of the impact they had on both my brother and me. My father still is, always will be and my mother took her denial and ignorance to her grave. Totally clueless. Neither one of them were “bad” people but they were ill equipped to be parents period, let alone parents of two adopted children who came into their lives with their own bag of shit. It was the perfect storm…..a true botched job in just about every department. The whole story is just too much to even tell and I can only say that I guess it could have been worse and I’m glad it wasn’t.



That was a powerful post at Noon. Wow. You said it so well…thank you.


OxD…thank you for your precious, yet painful insight. Appreciate it. BIG HUGS TO YOU!
Dorothy2, its ok. No offence taken. 🙂 I Appreciate the comment that you made in your posting, For what you said clearly defined exactly what happened to my son years ago. You stated: The personality develops around the injury like a tree grows around a nail driven into it. When my 10 year old son stood at the window that day, and watched his father be led away in handcuffs to jail… that was the event that drove the nails into my sons heart and soul. Dorothy, thank you. Because what you stated, it puts a face on what happened to my son. After all of these years, 20 of them…now i understand. Heartfelt hugs to you as well, Dorothy. Sincerely, Radar <3


Louise, from the time I first attempted sobriety, I started learning that the train wreck of a childhood that was mine really was a train wreck. That was in 1989 or 90 and I’ve been seeing it more and more clearly ever since. Now, during my latest attempt at sobriety and hopefully my last…with the help of this Spath trama…..I’m really “getting” how bad the train wreck was. All of a sudden it’s actually dawning on me that it was ME who was on the train. Before this it was almost like it was a story about someone else. It’s tragic actually and a lot to process on top of the Spatcapade……and menopause. LOL 😯
Seriously? Did it all have to come together during menopause? I guess it did..
So another piece of the puzzle is that at 53 I get diagnosed with partial Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. My bio mom was a complete alcoholic and drank with me in her belly……drank, ran around, no prenatal care, etc.
I’m sure I was traumatized before I was even born. Tell me, how in the world can two people who just weren’t cut out to be truly nurturing parents going to deal with that? Then add a spathy brother to the mix. I just want a do over. Mulligan. There was clearly a misunderstanding.


Radar, you are so welcome. Sometimes an analogy really puts things together in a way that sticks. I’m happy that it helps.
I can’t imaging having a child as you do and having to face the powerlessness that you must feel. I have just a taste of it with XSpath because I really did love him……. I thought I did anyhow. Not knowing who or what he really is puts a whole different face on that now.
There is still a part of me for sure that hopes and wishes for something to happen in his life and in him, Devine intervention, that will wake him up. Something that will fix him and bring him back whole.
I actually pray to God asking for that miracle to happen and in the mean time continue to purge my anger and disgust. It’s a very confusing dichotomy to say the least.
Love to you Radar,



Me, too with the menopause deal. It’s nuts…too many things happening at once.

So sorry to hear about your mom’s alcoholism and yours, too. I wish you sooooo much luck with your latest attempt at sobriety! It is so important!!!!! Alcoholism is close to my heart as my maternal grandfather was one, but I never met him as he was killed in a car accident when I was only two. Then I am pretty sure my oldest brother is an alcoholic. Sigh. And then spath is an alcoholic and I pitied him so I can relate to it very well. You have support here. Take care.


Louise, one of the silver linings of the Spathcapade is that it has shown me how vulnerable I am when I drink. I’m naked essentially and a sitting duck when it comes to men. I can’t even begin to discribe how lucky I am to be alive after basically 35 years of very extreme drinking. I’ve had a few periods of sobriety between age 30 and now but he times I wasn’t sober made up for them. Woah!! Lucky is an understatement. I could have been dead ten times over and I didn’t come out of it completely unscathed but all in all it could have been much worse.
Thanks for the kudos!

Mincheff Joyce

I was the vicitm of rape by fraud. Every biographical characteristic my husband told me about himself was a lie. He kept it up for almost 4 years. I separated from him when I was pregnant with my son.

As he grew I noticed his lack of empathy. I thought maturity would correct the problem. When he killed his rabbit at age 4, I thought it was a mistake. By the time he was thrown out of the 4th school, I got it, but no one else seemed to. He had several therapists through the years. Not one equated his behavior with “psychopathy” and he was a master at “gas lighting” me. Our sessions dealt with behavior instead of helping to instill the empathy that would enable him to develop moral reasoning.

The mixture of his father’s abandonment, his own genetics and his eventual awareness that his father was an extraordinarily wealthy man, turned him. At 27 he said, “Now that I’m independent, what do I need you for.” He threw a few “I hate you”‘s in for good measure. I’d be shocked if he wasn’t connected to his father’s support in some way. We’re still estranged. At his next birthday, he’ll be 32.

I hear of folks whose psychopathic children have committed horrific misdeeds, and consider myself fortunate. While mine is cruel and heartless, he’s not violent, that I know of.

Never the less, a loss is a loss and losing a child is the most excruciating pain someone could possibly endure. That it was deliberately inflicted was all the more crushing. It made me examine what had actually transpired and do some intense soul searching. It is how I came to understand the impacts of genentics and psychopathy on the moral development of my child.

My heart goes out to you for your loss. And the rejection you’ve felt from the society that surrounds you must also be horribly painful.

As parents of emotionally disturbed children, I believe the greatest good we can make of it is to create awareness for society. It’s vital for families to understand how important a child’s grasp of emapthy is at an early age. Sensitivity training may be needed for children that are exhibiting limited empathy. Without this vital characteristic, they will be unable to develop a conscience.

As you raised your child, there was little to no awareness about this problem. While it may be too late for us to see the impact of this knowledge on our own children, we can take heart by passing the message on to others.

Joyce Mincheff


Dorothy2, My heart goes out to you, The things that happened to you and What you survived growing up. Im so sorry. We are the same age, I am 53 as well. Once upon a time, I was a very heavy drinker. It was always a part of our lives when I was growing up, so I grew up to be a heavy drinker as well. Long story short, i gave it up about 5 yrs ago. I knew it wasn’t good for me, and I did not want it to kill me. I have beautiful grandchildren now, and never ever I want my grandchildren to see their Nana, intoxicated. Funny thing is, I stopped drinking about 4 years before I met the spath-hole! All I can say is it’s a good thing I wasn’t a drinker as all of this has been happening, because he would have ended up in a fatality


Mincheff Joyce, My heart goes out to you as well. I know that has to hurt about your son…Big hugs to you!


”a child school-shooter talking about the numbness, internal pain, and lack of ability in processing his thoughts and emotions” a father, recalling the first time that he told his son that “he loved him”, after his son killed and wounded students”a mother repeatedly begging for help that does not come, or is inadequate. A child with personality and behavioral disorders that understands what he is dealing with (knows right from wrong), but does not have the complete ability to control these issues. People that do not live with these scenarios on a daily basis do not think about these issues because they do not affect them. The reality is, is that these issues do affect them. We are all connected because we live in a society, and until people start listening, paying attention, gaining complete understanding of the complexities of how we are all a part of this problem, offering support, demanding that the government address the complexities, and demanding that these kids and their families get complete and adequate mental help”we, and everyone that we love, are all at risk of being harmed at some point in our lives, which varies from minimally to catastrophically.
I am not about placing blame, but when the government fails to regulate what is put into our food, water, air, and man-made toxins that we come in contact with”and the lack of resources available to those affected by these mass mistakes that have permeated the DNA of humans”I will blame them”until they do something about it. It is so easy to blame the guns, the parents, the kids, the “professionals”, drugs, money, the schools, bullies, morality (or lack of), religion, and (insert any other reason)”because the complexities are so intense and beyond what we can imagine… the problems will continue. I’ve had the opportunity to see the connections, and many times without purposely looking for them, not only scientifically but all the way through the maze of our social being, and it could scare the hell out of me, but I cannot be afraid of something that I cannot change”because it is much larger than any one person can do”and quite simply I do not want to be controlled by fear. My goal is to simply bring awareness and continue to do what I have set out to do, and that is to personally make a difference in the lives of individuals and their families affected by personality and behavioral disorders. Whether or not I accomplish that goal is up to me, but also by the forces in which I blame.
My own mother, a psychopath, who may have possibly murdered my father and got away with it, and three brothers with narcissistic or sociopathic personalities”all of whom I have no contact with”and being a sociopath magnet, have been involved in personal relationships that resulted in producing a child of my own who is disordered, and who is weeks away from giving birth and living with me, despite knowing that no contact would be in my best interest”but I continue to want to monitor what I see as being in the best interest of society, and now, most importantly, an innocent baby. At any given moment, I can lose the ability to monitor because “disordered” is subjective and adults, who stay within the guidelines of the law can move freely.
I too am Adam Lanza’s mother.


Trla, appreciate your post! Thank you. {{ hugs }}


Radar Love,
Good for you!! If nothing else motivates a person to give up their unhealthy destructive habits, those that are near and dear to them can.
That’s part of what crushes my soul about Spath…since we split, he’s right back at it drinking…not feeling what I’m feeling…..not honoring himself, me, or any chance of there ever being an “us”. He’s as ill equipped to care for me as my self absorbed parents were/are.
Yes, you are fortunate to have not been drinking during your Spathcapade. I was at the beginning and that phase almost killed me. Then I endured another 3/4 of a year with him sober. I’m not saying it was a whole lot easier but I know it helped. It’s a slippery slope to be with someone so f’ed up and to be drinking all most assures not being able to keep your feet under you and your head together.

I don’t know what to say that I haven’t said to Ox and Radar…..I don’t have children thank God. During my child bearing years I was ill equipped to raise a goldfish. I don’t know how I managed to keep my pets intact but hey all lived to a ripe old age.
I’m sad for you and to the best of my ability imagine the heartbreak of having a child who’s gone off the tracks is painful beyond the imagination of someone who has not walked in those shoes.
Love to you both and Ox and your children. D2

The videos told me that this kid is EXTREMELY manipulative.
First, his mom’s description of the “blue pants drama” revealed that he was intent on getting her to react because when she caved on the pants issue, he brought up the video games. Spaths create drama to get US to react. They need the entertainment to relieve their overpowering boredom.

When the reporter was interviewing him, he was getting attention and he knew just what the reporter wanted to hear: that there was hope for him, that he was struggling with inner demons. While I agree that he has inner demons, I disagree that he is struggling.

To quote Anna Valorious’s blog:

Let’s look at the statement above, “…all humans struggle against being selfish.” No, they don’t. THAT is what this blog is about. The ones who don’t struggle against their selfish urges. It is about those human beings who long ago gave up any struggle against their lusts, their selfish entitlement attitude, their demands, their need to control others.

Dorothy and Louise,
whatever “nail” was driven into that tree, I submit to you that he long ago stopped feeling it. Instead, he demands that his mother must feel it.

I hope that his mother reads the book, Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft. I also wish she would read the Gray Rock article because she needs to gray rock that kid and stop feeding him her emotions.

Ox Drover

Tria, Dorthy, Radar and anyone else who is also Adam Lanza’s mother, there are currently 2 million people in prison for felonies, and 5 million on parole or probation. 25% of the people in prison are full fledged 30+ score psychopaths and the entire felony convict and ex convict population (huge number of millions) have an AVERAGE PCL-R score of 22–which means that they are not someone you’d want to take home and keep for a pet.

Plus, today most of the babies up for adoption come from parental units that are disordered and very likely to show personality disorders even if raised by good, nurturing parents. Essentially 100% of kids in foster care are from dysfunctional families and all have a high likelyhood of having disordered parental DNA AND bad environment. Not only are there psychopaths, but plenty of people with other emotional problems, mental illness, retardation, fetal alcohol syndrome, drug addictions at birth, etc etc ad nauseam.

Those of us who have done our best to instill conscience and empathy in our children, and FAILED are legion, we are NOT ALONE but there is liittle or no support for us.

There are, instead, plenty of official and sociological groups who ENCOURAGE us to take these monsters back into our homes and families when they are released from prison. Instead of helping us disengage from them, disconnect from them and realize that it is probably NOT OUR FAULT that the spawn of satan, the Rosemary’s babies that we raised are like they are.


OxD, thanks for the data. Just wow…omg, i never realized. This makes my blood run cold, in my heart just sinks for the thought of it all……



Was that kid’s voice altered or did he really talk that way?


I hear you Skylar. I think the nail is still there though (demon ).
I need to watch the other videos. I just watched part of the one of the kid before I couldn’t stand it anymore.
Ten thumbs up to Lundy Bancrofts books. The other one he wrote is Should I Stay Or Should I Go and I liked it better than Why Does He Do That BECAUSE, it spells out exactly what a disordered, abusive person has to do (actions) for there to be any hope of change. There is a corresponding web site for the abusive partner who SAYS they want to change. There is a two part PDF plan that can be printed out and given to the abuser. I’m sure that if any of you ladies read it and tried to picture your abusive Spath or Spath child actually doing these things it would dash anyone’s hopes. Of course, where there is life there is hope but that goes back to divine intervention with these people.

I’m not sure. it reminds me of how my niece used to “tawk” when she wuz about two years old. I used to say she had a nyork accent. Except that she’s not from NY.

This kid’s mom doesn’t talk like that. So I think it’s an affectation of some kind.

I’ve posted this before:

It’s really a break through toward finding the genetic connections between these seemingly disparate disorders. It has to do with the calcium channels.

The way the kid created drama in the car reminds me of how my spath used to love to create car drama. He would wait until we were on our way somewhere, to attack. One has to wonder why the car becomes the setting.

But then, that one time that I slipped him the homeopathic stress pills (I could already sense what he was planning), he was completely UNABLE to create drama. He said he felt calm and didn’t like it, but that’s all he could muster. lol.

So that does indicate that there is a chemical reaction going on.


I’ve been off this site for awhile due to the fact that the last time I felt like I was being attacked. You all make it sound like its okay to be in a controlling relationship. Almost like he who holds the gold, holds the pot or whatever. That’s not how the world works in all arenas. There are good people out in this world who would not hesitate to the right thing. Yes, there are people in this world with twisted minds but to validate that type of behavior? I dont think so! And tell me cause I’m young I cannot express who I am nor where I intend to because I’m a dependent under my dad. I maybe in my 20’s but I do not condone a man mistreating cause he feels like he has the audacity. Instead you tell me to drop everything and start from scratch? Is that what you are supposed to do to finally break out of a bad relationship? How about getting a secure job then saving up little by little then work on moving out? Instead you want to sit behind a screen and tell me instead of talking to healthy people in my life I should just be up front and ask to stay at there place? Well, maybe I feel uncomfortable. Did you ever for a second think about that? I plea over and over for encouragement. Instead I get knocked down here and at this new school I just started. I DON’T THINK SO! You want to offer advice for someone? Make sure its one you yourself can handle. Yes legally my father DOES NOT HAVE to pay for school but would you want you child’s father telling her that? Is that what you want for your child? Try giving advice you yourself would give your own child. Instead of your “harsh reality”! cause your “harsh reality” is your pain in disguise! For the record ” Hurt people hurt people”. There’s no ONE way to escape abuse by the way. Instead of trying to knock someone else down cause he/she feels like they can achieve something, try encouraging them to follow their dreams and their ambitions DESPITE their circumstance. I’m done and you will not be seeing me on this website again. If I need encouragement, I will go to healthy people or ones who will be willing to place their pain aside. Well, he who holds the gold, holds the pot. HE WHO HOLDS THE GOLD ENDS UP EMPTY HANDED! GOOD AFTERNOON.

“Divine intervention”, yep, I second that.

It usually comes in the form of God YELLING at us to “GET OUT and stop being such a frickin’ martyr!”


Awesome post Skylar. You are the THE!!
I’d love to lock all of these Spaths up in a room with all the manipulation experts and let them try to wriggle free. We should start a Spath extermination school.


Oh Skylar!! I’m OUT!! And you are correct, I was a martyr. I also see its more complicated that that……all tangled up with childhood patterns and Spath deception. I’m finally feeling the fog of war lifting. It’s like I washed my windshield!!

Hurt no more,
I was with the spath for over 25 years. trying to save money was a joke. Trying to better myself, was a joke. Trying ANYTHING was a joke, because he would watch, to see what I was trying and then sabotage it.

If I tried to go to school, he would increase the strychnine in my food. If I found a job… same thing, plus he would take the money. If I got an insurance settlement, he would have a car accident, and have to pay –WITH MY MONEY.

Most spaths are not that extreme, but they wear us down emotionally until we can’t handle it anymore.

Life CAN be hard, but nothing in life is as hard as living with a spath. They are the cause of many illnesses, poverty, distress, trauma and suicides. That is their plan, they want us to die, preferably by our own hands.

If you father is truly a spath, you don’t have much hope for thriving in that environment.

Once you are out, you’ll see that life isn’t as hard as you thought. And that, in fact, the fear of being on your own was put into you BY YOUR FATHER, so that you’d never have the courage to leave him.

Still, I do recommend that you learn, learn, learn, perhaps get counseling even, before you leave him. I’ll tell you why: You are at risk for running into the same or worse. This is what you’re used to and unbeknownst to you, you will be attracted to it. You won’t recognize it because they come in disguise. They seem sooooo nice, at first.


Skylar……that was awesome what you said above about fear being put into you by a parent!!!! My mother used to tell me things all the time about myself that weren’t true! The best example was her saying….” I don’t know WHY you live way out in the country…’ve always been a city girl”. I love being in the country and have always loved living ” out ” but that didn’t fit into the picture she was painting for HER fantasy daughter. Not much about me did as it turned out! LOL


Skylar…..I see that Spaths mother does this with him but in a very subtle way….by enabling him? Stroking him? Making it just fine that he is dependent on her….setting no expectations for him while under her roof, allowing him to remain in the crib and live like a teenager. It suits her because she HAS him that way.


Skylar, just wow… I didn’t know that your husband tried to poison you! Did you ever post your story here on LF? If you did, I would very much like to read it. Could you post a link To your story here? I only have my phone to read and post here, And couldn’t begin to try to find it…

that type of enabling is very typical of narcissists.
My parents do that to us too. That’s why my spath-brother lives in their basement…

It’s also why narcissists are the spaths’ favorite food.

Radar_On, he didn’t just try, he put strychnine in my food for almost 25 years. Small amounts, just enough to make me sick but not enough to kill because, obviously he would’ve been caught. His method for killing me was going to be my own sleeping medication. That would have made it look like suicide.

I’ve never posted my whole story here. It’s too long and too disgusting. I just post little snips here and there. You can read more about it on my website under the “ABOUT” tab at


Thank you Skylar. So very glad he didnt suceed! Best to you!


Just a random share …….it’s snowing here and they are the biggest snowflakes I’ve ever seen! They have to be over 11/2 inches! It looks like someone shredded tissues and dropped them from the sky! Beautiful….


Spaths in parents basement seems to be a common theme. That and masturbation, calling you babe and baby, multiple marriages, alcohol/ drug abuse, TV always on……add to the list!


Skylar, I read the article about calcium. Very interesting. My bio mom is was a parinoid schizophrenic. This was an interesting article as well. As I’ve mentioned before on 180, I test somewhat high on Aspergers.


Skylar, Thank you for posting Anna’s link. WOW-A!! Hello! That’s a doozy. I’m surprised I never stumbled across that before.
You know, the dots keep connecting and connecting. Not a pretty picture though.



I have no clue what other posters’ might have said to you, but as a mother, I definitely would want my child to thrive, reach his/her goals in life. Most of the posters, I think would want what was best for YOU, being concerned about you, your well-being. Hopefully, you will continue to share with the LF posters. Whatever you choose to do, I hope that things only get better for you. Peace.



I read about your son and I feel so badly for him. What happened to you and your child(ren) was devastating. I can just imagine how much pain your son was in (and still is). Sometimes, I think, why the in the world does there have to be so much suffering? What does all this suffering accomplish? He is another one who I can pray for. To me, he is a soul who has been crushed by life’s cruel experiences.

another link between schizophrenia and autism is gluten and casein, the proteins found in wheat and dairy, respectively. It seems that dietary changes make a difference in many people affected by the disorder.

The surprising thing about the calcium channel article is that the connection encompassed ADHD, bipolar, and major depressive disorders too.

I’m glad Anna’s blog helped you. Hers was the first blog I found after I ran from the spath. It spells things out very clearly, doesn’t it? She was raised by one, so she’s had a lot of time to think about it.


Oh, Bluejay, bless your heart! Yes, It was incredibly hard and I did try my best back then when they were children. I have 3 daughters, And they all turned out pretty well. As for my son, he is an only boy. I suppose that’s why what happened with his father hit him so very very hard. Not to be mellodramatic in stating this, but looking back at it all, I remember that day very vividly. That was the day my sweet little boy died. I watched him die from the inside outward. To my dying day, I will despise the man that did that to my son. Thank You, Blue Jay. Your heartfelt words are most appreciated. Best to you, Sincerely, Radar


RadarLove, hope you don’t mind me calling you that ;). Old song from our era……
Is your sons story listed separately on LF? How do I find it if so? I’d like to read. D2


If I gave up wheat and dairy I’d have to exist on air, LOL
Yes, Anna’s site was amazing. I’m all over the place with Spath today….flip flopper. I’m exhausted. Need food.



The car becomes the setting because you are trapped. He knew you couldn’t get out for that period of time.

I’m not sure about that. It seems the obvious answer, but early on I did train him to shut his mouth in the car. He would criticize my driving and I finally pulled over and told him to shut up or get out. He shut up.

So he stopped criticizing my driving but then he started up a new tactic.

I think, possibly, that there is more to it. I think perhaps they get triggered by us paying attention to something other than them. When we drive, people get into a “flow state”.

I think it bothers them to see us that way.

I had noticed my spath watching the way I drive in my peripheral vision. He looked envious. He looked down at the way I shifted gears using my wrist while my hand draped down, totally relaxed. I could tell he was judging my relaxed state and trying to determine how to change it.

Here’s something related to that from my shame article on my blog:

Sylvan Tompkins, the developer of Affect Theory, described shame as a sudden interruption of pleasure, a feeling of knocking the wind out of your sails. Tompkins theorized (as cited in Gilbert & Andrews, 1998: 5) that shame is a breaking mechanism on focused interest or joy:

“I posit shame as an innate affect auxiliary response and specific inhibitor of continuing interest and enjoyment. As disgust operates only after something has been taken in, shame operates only after interest or enjoyment as been activated; it inhibits one, or the other or, both.

The innate activator of shame is the incomplete reduction of interest or joy.”

Spaths are always trying to shame/slime us. That’s why they interrupt our flow states.

Edit: I think it’s interesting that Sylvan Tomkins correlated disgust with shame, in that quote. It reminded me of Eve taking a bite of the fruit expecting to become like God but finding herself naked, vulnerable and ashamed. It’s like biting an apple expecting sweetness and finding disgusting maggots.


No, Dorothy2. Have not posted about my sons life here, but would like to someday……. I could post it under ” damaged children as a result of psycho parents”……..and yes! RadarLove is sweet! Thanks!

Lovefraud is being upgraded. Comments and forum posts are temporarily disabled. Dismiss

Send this to a friend