By | September 30, 2010 41 Comments

Attempting to treat evil in the UK

Britain’s most dangerous criminals are sent to Broadmoor Hospital, which has the walls and gates of a high-security prison. There, Dr. Gwen Ashead, a consultant forensic psychotherapist, tries to treat them.

Read Is there a cure for Britain’s most dangerous criminals? on

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Ox Drover

This is a very interesting article. The comments about the serial killer’s mother begging the authorities for decades for “help” for him and getting none, sort of reminds me of Witsend, a poster here, who begged the school and child services to help her with her son, and got NOTHING but the cold shoulder.

From the descriptions of the the “patients” (please don’t call them inmates) at the hospital (please don’t call it a a prison) I’m not sure how many of them are really psychopaths and how many are truly mentally ill. From the descriptions though, the “dangerously psychopathic personality disordered” describes them in the first word—you can drop the rest. DANGEROUS.

The therapist’s intentions may be good and I applaud anyone who can work with these dangerous people and have empathy for them in spite of the horrible crimes they have committed. I have difficulty with empathy for “real psychopaths” (again, I am not sure that the patients they are referring to in this article are psychopaths, i.e. without conscience.) If they are, then in my opinion I think they should be in PRISON not “hospital.”

I am glad that there is apparently no cry to actually release these people into the public again, in spite of the one “patient” (please don’t call them inmate) who said how unfair it was to hold someone just because they were dangerous.

WHAT EVER IT TAKES to keep the public safe is what I think is best. If a person has proven s/he is dangerous they need to be locked up.

super chic

“Dr Adshead’s commitment to making Broadmoor’s patients safer, through putting them in touch with themselves, is admirable.” What?????????? Sounds like they are just playing her. l agree that they should be in PRISON.


From the article, membership in this club is reserved for the violent insane. One thing that the good Dr. is doing that is a positive is helping them in becoming more self- reflective. That is something sociopaths are seriously lacking. But can you hear the dialogue? How did it feel when you butchered those people? Good. There was a case on Dateline where 2 teens shot an unsuspecting elderly couple. The girl’s diary had a casual entry that went – I killed someone today and I liked it. Can you help these types through talk therapy? How about beating the crap out of them until they are nearly dead , and then talk to them. They might listen then, but probably not still sadly.

Ox Drover

Dear Teacher,

“You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink” and you can take a psychopath to therapy but you can’t make him empathize. There just no way to force anyone to ABSORB a value, or to internalize a subjective concept.

There’s a quote I remember part of (not word for word) about “a man convinced against his will is of the SAME opinion still” (can’t remember who said it) but it is so true. If we try to be the “thought police” and to make someone believe as we do, it WILL NOT WORK. Look at how many centuries people have persecuted others to make them take on religious beliefs that they did not really believe in—they might fake it on the outside but inside they did not buy it! It just does not work.

Opinions are OURS and someone may convince us, but not force us to change our beliefs.

Since we can’t convince a psychopath because they have no frame of reference, trying to FORCE them to change their thinking doesn’t work either…I wish it did.

A former poster here once said (seriously) that if every P was put in prison and MADE TO READ THE BIBLE that it would reform every one of them. While if there was a way to make it sink in past the eye balls this might be true, but Unfortunately I don’t think we can inject morality into anyone.


this was a media report? so it’s going to be infuriatingly sensational?..So take the real bones of it peeps.x


There’s another story very similar to the one about the killer Daniel Gonzalez in today’s UK Daily Mail.

Benjamin Frankum is a 25-year-old paranoid schizophrenic who’s been institutionalized before, but they let him out. Only in this instance there were supposed to be people monitoring Frankum–and there were–but the psychiatrists who had the power to get him locked up again refused to act. Not even when they were told he’d gone off his medication and was deteriorating. Not even after he broke into his grandmother’s house and stole jewelry and knives. Barely a week or two later he broke into another house and killed a man, stabbing him 81 times, while the man’s toddler son was sleeping right there on the bed with him.

They just had a public inquiry at the cost of £100,000, but it was a contemptible whitewash.

Here’s a link to the story.

Ox Drover

While what this man did is horrible, it probably COULD have been prevented if he had been adequately supervised for medication compliance. To “trust” this kind of patient to take their medication without any supervision is like trusting a two year old to stay out of the cookie jar. To trust the same man not to engage in smoking dope which is freely available is about as rational. Then, when it is REPORTED that he is NOT taking his medication and IS smoking dope and the “powers that be” don’t see how there is a problem. DUH?

Not every paranoid schizophrenic is dangerous, but some are, and there isn’t a 100% way of telling which is and which isn’t, but someone who actually KNOWS THAT INDIVIDUAL should be the one to make the judgment, not a “fill in” practitioner who has never seen them before.

But no authority is “to blame,” right? They went by the Book..right? So the family and children of the murdered man can suck it up…right? Too bad…right? Oh, well, Next case…..


That story is so sad, and so tragic. Obviously the “public good” didn’t seem to factor into the psychiatrist’s “monitoring” evaluation criteria, which makes me ask: for what exactly were they monitoring? To see how long it would take for him to escalate into violence? If it wasn’t for the public good, were they monitoring for his own good? ‘Cause I can’t see how “monitoring” someone slide into criminal behaviour really benefits that individual either.

@Oxy: “The therapist’s intentions may be good”

This particular therapist’s intentions may be good. But I suspect that quite a number of individuals who work in this area don’t have good intentions. Several people on this forum (I believe you are one of them) have noted how P/S’s are attracted to the medical and social services fields because of the vulnerability of their clients. My personal experience says this is true. I attended a facilitated “self-help” group where I disclosed my history of psychopathic abuse; the facilitator was an “oh-so-nice” social worker type that had me fooled. There was another group member who had experienced horrific abuse. I watched this facilitator psychologically target this poor woman and start subtle insidious mobbing against her. I had just found LF at the time, and as I read the site started to recognize what was happening and was able to somewhat short circuit the mobbing before it got too far. What made my blood run cold was that this facilitator made a point of saying how she was taking this program into prisons, specifically to work with “those poor psychopaths who are so misunderstood and don’t have any support.”“.

At that moment the blinders fell away from my eyes and I saw her for who she really was. Someone with an extreme narcissistic need for a following and a “name” for working with vulnerable people, but who secretly detested them and strongly identified with abusers.

The most dangerous people in history operated the same way: e.g. Hitler, Stalin, Mao. As far as I know, they never personally killed or injured people with their own bare hands. But they got their kicks by enabling the violence of less “successful” psychopaths.


If you read this thread: I think I may live in the same city as you. So I just wanted to give you a heads up warning about certain facilitated self-help groups that are “trauma-informed”. I don’t think the program is bad, just that particular facilitator. But unfortunately that particular program IS that facilitator in my city. And from reading your story, if you happen to find yourself in this group with that particular facilitator my gut feeling is that you would be her preferred type of prey.

Not to confuse the issue, but there is another trauma self-help group in the same city which is very good. I know that you are very aware of this kind of stuff, but thought I’d give you a head’s up just in case.

Also, given your health challenges, I thought you’d be interested in the following which was just broadcast on CBC Radio. The author, at least according to this interview, wants to look at this topic from a “procedural” perspective re: how the medical model drops the ball on patients with atypical symptoms. But my suspicion is that she encountered quite a number of medical professionals who deserve to be profiled here on LF.—pt-3-chloe-atkins.html

Ox Drover

Annie, I’ve seen therapists like that, and doctors, judges, and lawyers, and “Indian Chiefs”—any professional person can be so self-centered, so self-aggrandizing, and so PERVERTED that they ruin others lives with their incompetent attempts to “make a name” for themselves. In fact, I could name a few “well known” ones that I am pretty sure of but will refrain from doing so to protect my self from Donna taking down the post and whacking me with my own cyber skillet! LOL Besides, there’s enough we can name that make the news every week! LOL


Just thinking that (just perhaps) one of them might be someone we were discussing on another thread…?



The information you cited for one-step is the experience that she may find most like hers. The woman in the book is now a college professor and the ‘experts’ all thought she would die and that her symptoms were psychosomatic. Really good reference material.

The supposed experts aren’t infallible, I’ve found this to be true as well. We need to be our own advocate for our mental and physical health.


Thanks Hopeforjoy. “We need to be our own advocate” Couldn’t agree more.

@LF’ers: I’m not on this site very often. Would appreciate if someone could point out this post to one_step next time she’s here.


Ox Drover

It is unfortunate that some “help” groups are just trolling for more victims. Also some groups that are legitimate do also attract people who are trolling for victims. AA is one of those that while I think is so good in so many ways, does attract “dry drunks”(psychopaths who have dried out from the booze but are still TOXIC predators and are now “HOLY”–at least they present themselves as “helpers”! LOL


The journalist wrote:
“One of Adshead’s themes is the rarity and randomness of violence ”“ not only in those who are victims of it but in those who commit it. “Human beings are not predictable. The capacity for doing horrible things is there in all of us. But happily very few will actually do it. The road between the two is very long and there are lots of escape routes off it.” ”

My problem with this statement is that I don’t believe Adshead has ever been the victim of a P or else she would expand her definition of violence to the psychological warfare that everyone here has experienced. Then she would see that violence is not rare and that a great number of people indulge themselves in violence every day. But these are the TRUE psychopaths, the people of the lie who wear the mask of sanity and you can’t tell unless you know the redflags to look for.

Mrs Savage begged for help because of the obvious signs of a disordered mind in her son, but many people have different ideas about whats normal so we can’t just lock up all the freaks. Besides the true P’s would love an excuse to accuse and slander the innocent while wearing their mask of sanity and piety. Laughing all the while their victims are lead away in chains,. It happened to me. My brother the kitten killer, burglar, drug addict, 46 -year old parasite on food stamps, living in my parents’ basement, attacked me then scratched himself and called the cops for DV, they took me away because he had a scratch on him while my bruises took a few hours to show up. Salem witchcraft trials are another example. We need to be careful how much power we give “authorities” because, if you read Robert Hare, u will know that the P’s are ATTRACTED to authority. If they aren’t wearing the mantle of authority, they are brown-nosing someone who does.
This is why I study P’s in the wild. There is a template for recognizing them, but it’s fuzzy. I’m trying to defuzz it.
If all P’s were loony-bin material, life would be a picnic. But life isn’t a picnic, Life is the sociopath that happens to you while you were making other plans.



Read this post, there is some info. for you from Annie (earlier post). It’s pretty interesting stuff about a woman who was near death and the experts said it was ‘in her head’. Turns out they were wrong.



thanks hopeforjoy.

kim frederick

Well, just wanted to announce to all of you that I am powerless over alcohol and my life has become unmanagable (again).

I have a desire to stop drinking, and that’s all I need. I have decided to take it one day at a time and not drink, today.

I’m going to make an apt with a substance abuse counselor and go back to AA.

I’m afraid, though. What if I can’t do it?

I started drinking and smoking pot (quit pot 20 years ago) when I was 12 years old and with the exception of the 9 years (age 30 to 39) that I stayed sober in AA, I have had substance abuse problems all my life.

I need so much help to get my shit together. I need some mentel health counseling, and some help from social services.

I have a felony for possesion of a controlled substance so it is very difficult to find a job. I am not elegible for public housing because of it.

My situation with my daughter and SIL is reaching a fever pitch, and I need to be moving in the right direction.

I’ve tried everything I know, to be ok, with the exception of giving up drinking, and I’ve got to tell you, there’s a part of me that doesn’t want to give it up….but, hey, that’s what alcoholism is.

Please say a prayer for me, LF. I need all the help I can get.

I’m so full of anger at my bully SIL, who continues to ambush me, and terrorize, assasinate my charactor, but I’m powerless over him, and I NEED TO WORK ON MY OWN ISSUES.

I’ll carry the message for the damn coke addict and maybe he’ll eventually get a program, too. If he doesn’t, it’s only a matter of time til he uses, and as miserable as he is, it won’t be long.
He needs a little alanon, too.

Like they say in the program, whoever you get sober for, is the same one who’ll get ya drunk. He quit using for my daughter, and neither one is dealing with themselves.

I have been a part of the problem, but today I will try to be part of the solution.

Thanks for listening LF. I love you.


i have been waiting for you Kim. let me just say,


🙂 🙂

We love you, too. And I am so proud of you.

I have a fair amount of 12 step years behind me. So, whatever support i can offer in the spirit of the program, I’m in. shout out here whenever you need too. I think addictions are a huge issue for many of us – and i see sobriety as a big part of healing from the spaths. that’s what NC is, isn’t it – sobriety.

I am getting treatment for PTSD – i don’t know if this is part of your problem – but for me PTSD is an underlying issue that has to be dealt with (like booze) before I am going to be able to function properly. it’s making a huge difference.

so, okay – for this day, sobriety. keep going kimmy. 🙂 🙂

(((((massive hug sent your way.)))))

one step

Ox Drover

Dear Kimmie,

I have a feeling it was harder to “stand up” here at LF and say those words than it would be in an AA meeting.

I’ve seen you make so much progress over the past year or so that we’ve both been here and I just want you to know that you can (I repeat!!!) YOU CAN do it.

YOU HAVE MADE MY DAY KIMMIE!!!!! A burden shared is halved and a joy shared is doubled!!! Your burden should be lighter and my joy is doubled! (((((Hugs))))) and my prayers for you Kimmie! Love Oxy

kim frederick

Oxy and onestep, God bless both of you. I so apreciate your support. I have really made a mess of it. I am entirely dependant on other people for almost everything. I lost my drivers liscence 4 years ago. I’ve spent the vast majority of my life in miserable relationships, but seemed unable to get out. I have totally isolated myself.
Because of this problem with my SIL, I barely come out of my room. My daughter and I get along fine, but I can see this is tearing her apart. She is very co-dependant (how could she not be?) Somebody has to be the hero. It might as well be me.
When I got sober before, my x husband had been cheating on me with a 17 year old girl, and it just about killed me. I was so very hurt and angry I literally thought I might die of it.
If I ever suffered from PTSD it was then. I realized what denial I had been in, and how betrayed my trust was, and then I questioned and doubted everything I had ever believed. I had obsessive thoughts, couldn’t sleep. Quit eating…lost 40 pounds…5’6 100 pounds. I sometimes went to 3 meetings a day, just to keep my sanity. I went to treatment for 28 days, then out-patient for about 2 years. AA became my life. I started taking anti-depressants after about 6 mos. sober, and they were a miracle for me.
I painted, wrote poetry, and went to school…got a degree in Literature, then almost finished an MA in English. I finally left my husband, only to promptly start looking for the next one, and boy oh boy, am I bum magnet.

So WTF happened?

I got lonely. I got bored. I quit going to meetings, guess I thought I was cured. I went out a couple of times with a freind from the program, into bars, just to dance…no drinking, and I’ll be damned, if one night I didn’t drink a beer. That was all she wrote. Acouple of years into it I hooked up with spath.

I lost my house, my car, my jewlery, my reputation, my self-respect.

So here I am.

Sorry for the long life story, but want you to know how much it means to me to have you all to share with. It truley is a burden halved.

kim frederick

Thank you so much Donna. And thank you for LF. God bless you.


kim frederick,

Thank you for telling your story. I feel badly that you have a son-in-law who is making your life difficult. My heart goes out to you. You’re a strong, wonderful human being who’s definitely had some hard knocks in life (all of us here in the LF group). Try not to be too hard on yourself, each one of us having made plenty of mistakes in our lifetime. Keep on keeping on. I hope that today will be a good day for you. Peace.

Ox Drover


Okay, you are at the BOTTOM of the HOLE, and you’ve quit digging!!!! GREAT!!!!! You can do it! I am sure you are truly READY this time! NO excuses, NO denials, just assuming responsibility for KIM!!!! That’s the spirit!!! You know you have the NETWORK behind you!!!! Like the phone ad says! This is the POWERFUL LOVE FRAUD NETWORK!!!! TOWANDA!!!!

kim frederick

Thanks, Bluejay. Yes, he’s been a real pain in the neck, and I hope we can experience some peace, now.

I found the Big Book on line, and read a little bit about resentment, and it really helped. I have to let go of my self will, and quit trying to be in control, so I can have my way. Got to surrender.

Been trying to find the phone number of my long lost sponser, but she lives part-time in Costa Rica, so I’m not sure if she’s even here.

I will have to ask someone to pick me up, if I intend to go to a meeting…but, they’re used to that. 🙂

Thanks again for your well wishes.


kim frederick,

I have some housework that I NEED to do, so I’ll be quick. Reading the Bible helps me (along with self-help books). Every day can be tough for me, having unwanted challenges thanks to the h-spath in my life. I have resentment toward my h-spath (and his family members), that he is the way that he is, tolerating him when he is in my presence, not going out of my way to talk to him. Forgiving our enemies is what Jesus taught – I’ll need His help to do just that in regards to the h-spath (and his family members). Good luck with your day.

kim frederick

Hey guys, I’m stoked. I called my old group and found my sponser! I’m going to a meeting tonight. I’m sooo damned proud of me. 🙂


Thank you for being transparent….talking about what you are going through takes away some of its power over you…

I am wondering if you would like to email me outside of here. I am in recovery as well (five years c and s, relapsed for a couple of months after divorce and now 4 years c and s again). I am a master’s level therapist and have private practice. my specialty is treating “professionals” (doctors, nurses, attorneys etc and have set up treatment so they can have confidentiality and also work around their work schedule) with chemical dependency (and dual diagnosis such as depression, anxiety etc). I don’t want to use this site to talk about recovery skills etc but would love to talk more with you.

I am proud of you for getting back on the path to recovery. It’s difficult to do and think about it this way. You have been sober before so that means you can do it again. Think back to what worked for you before and do those things again. I hear a lot of people say they stopped going to meetings and that was the beginning of relapse behavior. You have been through so much stress and without support and help it is difficult to stay sober at times. But I tell my clients that relapse is not failure it is an opportunity. You have most likely learned a lot about yourself and your recovery and what you need. You are here at LF and are learning even more about yourself (people pleasing, choosing the wrong people to be around, etc. been there, done that!). I find people who have what I want and then surround myself with them! Like being here and listening to the wise people.
You are asking for help and that is huge! It is so difficult to ask for help. We are smart people! We have accomplished a lot, are mothers, fathers, work, take care of everyone else! But ourselves. Now it is time for YOU. Like OxD says to me. Focus on YOU. If you aren’t healthy you can’t be there for anyone else. Getting clean and sober is hard work. Looking at our past and our defects of character is even harder. But you have self efficacy. You have shown that by having sobriety before. So know that about yourself. Believe it.

Some days its one minute at a time, not one day at a time! I use the same principles for how I deal with my xspath, and the crap with my mentally ill spath brother and having people believe those two rather than look at who I am, what I have accomplished and how I live my life. Once you get some time you will feel fewer cravings as you know. Your brain needs to heal. Excecutive thinking will get better and better and it takes about 90 days to get back to a bit clearer thinking.

You have been a support to many at LF and to me. I look forward to reading what you write here. You have a lot of strength and courage and wisdom.

Excellent news about getting sponsor! That is so great. You should be proud because it takes all we have some days to get out of bed. But you did more than that! you have said to us and to yourself that you are worth it! You are worth getting healthy, healing and moving forward.


Kudos for grabbing the problem and owning it.
Now that you own it, you can solve it – even if that means giving it up to God.
He will be there for you if you let him.
But remember, the way to manage the spath is no drama. set an example for your daughter that way. I can’t tell you how well this has worked for me. When I see drama, I just give a little smile, and call it out, patiently and with kindness.

kim frederick

Hi Chinagirl. Yes, I would like very much to e-mail you, but don’t know how to go about it. Do you? Do we need to contact Donna?

Yeah, as crazy as it sounds, I try to use everything I’ve learned in the past to live my life in a healthy way…the 12 steps are a pert of my life, as are the tools I learned in treatment about co-dependancy issues, but, I realize that nothing is going to work, really until I stop the addiction.

The Big Book says that alcohol is just a symptom of our disease. If you scratch my surface you will find a raging co-dependant. It’s the co-dependancy that causes so much
pain…and damn, I’d sure like to avoid that pain, if I could.

But, alas, I’m going to have to deal with it.

I found my dear friend and sponser today, and she’s coming to pick me up tonight. She has over 20 years in recovery. She is an artist, a musician. She surfs, and is a massage therapist. She has been married forever, and she and her husband came into the program together. She is comitted to doing service work, and is probably the most loyal person I have known in this life-time. I feel so fortunate to have found her.

Thank you so much for sharing with me. Lets figure out how we can get in touch.

kim frederick

Yeah, Skylar, the ddddrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmaaaaa sucks. I’ve really been working on avoiding it (google stuff like, detachment, how to avoid manipulation, power struggles, how to deal with difficult people etc.etc.etc.) It helps me stay focused on not reacting, holding on to my own power, taking care of myself, not allowing someone else to bait me, but the truth is, it does not come naturally, and it is very hard for me. I find I can do it for awhile, but when I get really tired of the draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmaaaaa, I do what comes natural, and react. Got to stay gray rock.

Lots of drama last night. Well, actually it started at 7 am, when SIL texted a charactor assasination to me while I was babysitting. He’s really good at hitting you when you are least expecting it, and when you are trying to stay focused on something as important as small children. It’s becoming a pattern, and in the past, I’ve handled it with very little emotion. Just the facts, telling him I understand his position, and then saying “bye now” and turning off my phone. But he just increases the intensity of his attacks, and just will not let it go… last night I gave into my baser instincts, and told him about himself.

I called him a bully and assured him that I would not be terrorized by him. I told him I didn’t like him, I saw through him, and was waiting with baited breath for the day when my daughter did, too. I told him that any problem that he has with me will be of his own making. Told him to keep his distance, that there was absolutely no reason I should have any interaction with him at all.

He promptly texted back, “We’re done. Don’t say shit to me.”
I texted back, “with baited breath”.

He was up early this morning when I was, so I told him I left my bedroom door open for him, so he could go on up.
He’s been violating my boundrys by going into my room, and policing me.

Anyway, not very gray rock is it?
This morning I decided to give up, and get a program.

I think he’s been off cocain for about a month, with nothing but his self will to rely on, and I can tell you from experience that doesn’t work. He can’t use, so I can’t drink. Oh well. Probably for the best, but, I will never like him as long as he thinks he can bull-doze his way through life.

Yeaah, I really need to focus on detachment. NO EMOTIONAL REACTION TO OTHER PEOPLES DRAMA. Thanks for the reminder, Sky. I’m glad you’re back. 🙂


Hi Kim
I think we need to go through Donna. I will email her.

Yes, the drugs, alcohol are just symptoms. it was important to me to find out why I needed that. Some people don’t need that but some do. I was one that needed to understand and break it all down.
I think all of us in aa/na are codpendents. And seriously the codependent part is the sickest part. But it’s possible to change it. I have and am still.
and you are right also that you can’t begin to do any of it until the drug or alcohol is not in your system. So, one thing at a time and you found your sponsor who sounds amazing. I am glad for you. I always tell people (and do it myself) find women who have what you want and seek them out. I said it earlier, but I like it so I’m saying it again!! Like here…we can read who has wisdom and we seek those people out to help us recover.
I’ll let you know what donna says about email

kim frederick

Yep, I did it. Went to a meeting and got my attitude adjusted. Just what I needed. We talked a lot about self-centered fear, and self-will….both are a result of a lack of faith….so, that is where I will start. It’s a spiritual disease, and I can’t afford to be in collision with another person, especially one who is also spiritually sick. ( I believe he relapsed last night…80% sure of it…He enacted all the behaviors and rituals he always has in the past…my daughter is on vacation, so she isn’t around to witness it, and he’s lying to himself that I can’t see what’s going on, just because he wants to use so bad, that nothing else really matters.

Now, what? With the sick family dynamic, ie. the scape-goating, the triangulation, the gas-lighting, the co-dependancy, the power struggles…what is the right thing to do?

I want to take the high road, and work on myself, NOT STIR THE SHIT, even though I know HE would, and has, (what a hypocrite) deep breath, Kim, you’re powerless. The only person you can controll is yourself!

The Big book says I can’t afford to have a resentment…A simple resentment has the power to kill me….It’s all about the self-centered fear. Faith instead of fear, and do the next right thing.

Ox Drover

Dear KIm,

Good going Kimmie, I’m proud of you!

We talked about this situation a while back (several months) and you knew then when it was pretty “rocky” that sooner or later it would erupt again and that as long as you stay there there will be the TRIANGULATION.

What about moving out to some where else. Maybe find a room to rent in another place instead of trying to find your own independent place, and keep on looking for a higher paying job, or maybe take in a couple more kids (if that is legal) but work on some independence for you so that you don’t have to live subservient to anyone.

Living subservient to someone like your SIL has got to be a DOWNER for you. You know I’m behind you and I’m your biggest champion. You’ve come a long way already kimmie, this skate will be all down hill! ((((Hugs)))))




Hi Kim!
I emailed Donna about exchanging emails so we can talk recovery without taking up time here.

I am so proud of you for going to the meeting. It takes courage to call someone and get up and actually go! Remember when you feel like NOT going to a meeting is when you NEED to go!! I always found that I’d get the message I needed esp. when I didn’t want to go.

You are so right about resentments. You can’t afford to have them. Neither can I. When you are ready and with your sponsors guidance you can do another fourth step and the freedom and healing from that will be wonderful. I realized, after talking to my clients, that I needed to do another fourth step after divorce. So for the past five years I have had….count ’em……50 resentments!!! No wonder I was a mess! I didn’t use but how is beyond me. LOL. So, another fourth step is in the works. Now, I am not a 12 step “beater”. I believe we can recovery in many different ways. but, I do like the steps because 1) they work and 2) I live a better life. I like who I am better when I do the steps. I am calmer, happier, kinder and more empathetic. Like we need to be more empathetic. LOL. But you know what I mean.

Also, just work on your own recovery. period. Don’t worry about his or anyone elses. That is their job. Your job is you. When we focus on our own stuff everyone around us gets better. Our perspective changes. Our codependency stuff changes. So let him go. Detach with love. That doesn’t mean you have to love him but you don’t have to hate either. You do, however, have to take good care of yourself and give yourself a break. You have been going through a lot of stress. Love yourself and let others who are safe love you back. It’s hard. I didn’t want to let anyone in after this nightmare. But I am slowly trying.

And, I know I said it yesterday, but surround yourself with women who have what you want. They will help lift you up. Stay away from toxic and sick others right now. It’s so much easier to be pulled down then to try to lift someone else up…so you can help others later when you are stonger.

Don’t mean to dictate! Sorry! Just telling you what has worked for me. You can see if it fits for you or not.

good job! You have made a crucial and very difficult first step. Keep going! And remember, if you do go off path, you can jump right back on. Don’t need to give up.

kim frederick

Thanks, to all of my dear friends here on LF.

I agree, Chinagirl, I missed the peace of mind that came through working the steps, and focussing on getting better. It’s such a paradox, but power flows in when we let go. It is so mind boggeling, but such a wondrous thing.

I apreciate the tolerence of all here, in letting me preach my 12 step stuff. It isn’t for everybody, and it does require taking some responsibility, and not everybody is willing or able to do that.

It’s all really paradxical, I think. Like, yes wer’e empathetic to a fault, and it makes us easy prey…but there again, wer’e responsible for that misplaced empathy…what were we trying to gain, hold on to or control?

Yes, sometimes really farked up, sick people do horrible things.
Did we have any control over what they did? NO. Was there possibly a weakness in us that bought into there BS, and reprehensible behavior? Is there something we should be working on, in ourselves that would explain why WE STAYED so long?

And as Donna wrote in her most recent article…fear is good.
We absolutely need to trust our instincts…unless the fear is based on selfishness and self-will. Dominace and power needs. If I’m afraid of not getting what I want, or losing what I have, then I’m not trusting my higher power, and I will be trying to force my will on the universe…to be at peace I accept Gods will.

And then the idea of resentment….wow. If you ever want to see a group of people who DON’T want to admit responsibilty for something, just tell them they need to let go of their resentments.

Another paradox. People think they are strengthed by their resentments. They think resentment gives them some kind of control over something or someone, but all it does is make you miserable, hateful, and power hungry. It’s pointing out instead of in, and there is no healing out there, only in here.

Now, I know we are vulnerable to disordered people by our empathy, but after we’ve found the weaknesses in ourselves, and built our genuine strength, there is no point in continueing to hate.

One of the books I’m reading says, that all people are to some extent sick, and just suffering from the pains of growing up…
That isn’t to make us vulnerable to their ploys, but to allow us to forgive and not harbor negative unwanted chaos in our lives.

I know a lot of folks here will object to that way of thinking, and like I said, it’s not for everybody.

I do believe anger is a valid emotion, and we need to acknowledge it and respect it…work through it, even rage with it, but eventually we need to get over it.

Love to all of you. You’ve been my life-lline for the past year. Thanks again for letting me share, and by doing so, helping me get these ideas into my own brain.

I will try to refrain from talking too much of this stuff in the future.


Kim you said some really good things above. Anger is just an emotion. Nothing more, nothing less. It is what we do with that anger that is important. Do we cause ourselves more consequences by hitting someone, blowing up, raging at our boss? or do we practice some self control and self care and give ourselves a few minutes to feel the feeling and then make a responsible choice in how we respond to it? That is what matters.

Under anger is usually another emotion. Many of us I am going to assume when growing up, have not been allowed to have anger. I know I wasn’t anyway. So by the time I got into recovery I didn’t know what to do with that emotion. It scared me. I was uncomfortable with it and had suppressed it for so long and denied it. I would have said I was not an angry person but when I first allowed myself to feel it it came raging out! Now I just allow it, feel it, and then try to respond and not just react.

I like what you said, too, Kim about taking responsibility. I have really grown up the past 6 years being in this nightmare with xspath. I learned about honesty and accountability in my recovery and have learned even more about accountability in THIS recovery from xspath. He was never accountable for any of his behaviors. And he probably never will be. He had to blame…his first wife when he was with me, now me as he is with his 3rd wife. My 2 friends that stayed with me for several years after the divorce (now all those friends from that town have left) all told me that he was not accountable and would never be. They had encouraged me to get out, to leave him. They saw it, too, which helped validate my feelings.

I have been reading about this a lot today here on LF…the crazy making of the spath. How we get manipulated into feeling and thinking that what we KNOW to be true is in our heads. That is the part that makes me nuts! And that is why having the support here is so incredible. Had I not connected with xspaths first wife after divorce I would have inevitably believed that this was all my doing, all my fault and that there was something bad about me. even though I can look at two other long term relationships I have had in the past and my first marriage with my Son’s (nice) father and see there was no chaos in those relationships, that it was relatively easy to have a relationship with them, we worked ‘together” not against each other and there was little powerplay in those relationships I would still believe it was all ME that made a mess of the marriage with spath. they are so good at projecting. He is still good at it and not having to hear him the past 6 months has been a godsend. I have been able to clear my mind of the chaos and venom and having NC has been what has made me able to pick myself up and start to take care of myself in preparation of backspathing him and getting my D back.

We have to continue to help each other realize that these spath’s love to confuse, to play head games and to make us doubt ourselves. My xspath was great at smoke and mirrors. Better than David Copperfield.!!

kim frederick

Chinagirl, agreed. It’s interesting. I was reading, a week or so ago, a book called, “Nasty People: How TO Deal With Them, and Avoid becoming One of Them. I was also reading a book entitled, “Stop Being manipulated”.

One of the points made by the nasty people book, that especially stood out for me was this: The author says we are never to let the manipulator, (or as he calls him, the invalidator) introvert us. What he means by this is that we should not allow the manipulator to turn our attention onto ourselves, and whatever he is proclaiming about our charactor. We need to be able to see clearly that it is he who is manipulating, and keep our focus on what he does.

I agree with that, truley. But again, it’s a paradox. People who don’t have the same weaknesses that we do, don’t have to read a book. They know, naturally how to respond in a he
althy way.

I personally think we need to see ouside, but look inside, both, at the same time.

Not to assign blame, but to live in the healthiest way we can.
It is probably best to first see outside, and learn some self-defense. But after a while you realize that even your ability to be manipulated is a manipulation you are doing to try to hold onto something that isn’t working, or an image of yourself as a nice person, or counter control, and it’s all so self defeating.

Yes, these abominations exist in our world. But I don’t have to be disturbed by them any more. I can admit that I can’t do a damn thing to make them right, and wash my hands of them, and then work on me.

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