By | February 3, 2011 45 Comments

Australian prime minister once involved with con man

Yes, anyone can get conned. As a young lawyer, Julia Gillard, now prime minister of Australia, fell in love with a union official who turned out to be a con man.

Read this article from 2007, Julia Gillard: Conman broke my heart on

Link supplied by a Lovefraud reader.

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Dani S

Wow thanks Donna I never had read about this before. I found it so distressing innocently getting caught up unknowingly in my husband’s cons and then him telling all sorts of malicious lies and stories about me to make himself look like the victim. It was one of the reason’s I had a break down at the time. I had always been an honest giving person and the person he was making me out to be was just horrible. Looking back he should be an Author his ability for story telling was second to non.

I am just an ordinary person not like Julia Gillard and to have had a spath in her live could have quite possibly derailed her career, dreams and goals.
I am not a huge fan of hers but I truly feel for her having that in the background and how people would perceive her and her actions at the time when knowing what we know she thought she was just doing her job and loving a normal person.

Ox Drover

What ever happened to him, I wonder? Did he go to prison or jail, or have to pay back any of the money he stole?

She must have been either very clean or very corrupt to withstand this public Attachment to a con man, and assuming she was innocent in it, I can definitely feel for her.

Dani, I think we have most of us had “breakdowns” of one level or another—that’s what the psychopaths intend, is to break us down. You’re a survivor now though, and MUCH wiser I suspect! (((hugs)))

Just shows, it can happen to anybody. Also makes Julia that much more human 🙂


So – I have spent the past half hour “googling” Bruce Wilson (her con man) but the only info I can find on him at all is related to the article already quoted, i.e: telling the story about how Julia was conned by him.

Most mysterious – not even mentioned in the union sites’ records I looked up.

Almost like he just “disappeared”…

Gee – wouldn’t THAT be unusual for a spath???? LOL

Dani S

Oxy~ oh yer so much wiser, I infact wrote those very word today. My mother ran into someone that I was friends with but chose to believe the spath and not me. He told my mother that he and his partner worked out a long time ago that the spath was evil and felt so ashamed and guilty for siding with him that he could not bring himself to contact me. So I sent him a little note through face book saying that I was ok and no hard feelings and I am a whole lot wiser for it. I know all too well about being conned and the embarrassment that follows that! And Oxy we break down because we are human with real human emotions, there is only so much the psyche can take. x

Aussie girl ~ Wow I am so not surprised though, mine did a miraculous disappearing act- hard for him to con the next single mother when you have 3 children to 3 different ripped off mothers in your wake and all the rest that didn’t bare him a child but still left penniless.

Ox Drover

you know, Dani’s comment about the guy who believed the Spath and then found out the truth but was “too ashamed” to come forward and say “I’m so sorry I believed him”—

Well, I’ve kind of been thinking about that “person” because I know there must be hundreds of that kind of person connected to “us” here. (Though I am also sure there are hundreds that still believe the s-path too) but for those that DO see the truth, WHY don’t they have the cojones and backbone to fix their “ashamed” in some way but HIDING?


It makes me wonder if these are the same people in Germany after the war who were saying “Oh, I was just following orders, I never believed in or voted for Hitler. Besides I didn’t actually kill anyone, I just kept the lists of people to be sent to the camps, and oh, I didn’t really know they were killing them there anyway, I thought it was JUST FORCED SLAVE LABOR for the good of the country. I was just doing my job. But I know the truth now so let’s JUST PRETEND NONE OF THAT HAPPENED.”

I realize that theh psychopaths can lie, and I realize that just about anyone can fall for their lies and believe them—I FELL FOR THE LIES AND I BELIEVED THEM— but to participate in the abuse because you believe the lie, but then when you KNOW THE TRUTH and realize you have participated in abusing someone and to NOT EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR REMORSE for it, puts you in my book somewhere below psychopath cheet, which is somewhere below whale cheet at the bottom of the ocean.

Yet, in a way, part of me wants to COMFORT these dupes, and feel sorry for them for being fooled, but another jpart says “hey, he’s about as bad as a psychopath himself and he may FEEL regret or remorse but he DOESN’T ACT ON IT.” Which is worse, to know and feel and DO NOTHING (the dupe) or to know and NOT feel and do nothing? (the psychopath) I’m really not sure, I have to ponder on this philosophical slant for a while.


very well said Oxy. you are one smart and wise woman. maybe we can call these “dupes” enablers to some extent. I am sure these Ps and Ns are surrounded by enablers and so they can thrive – all they need is enablers and victims and life is great for them.


OX Drover,

Good post about people being quiet enablers, not having the guts (at times) to stand up for what right, or just not caring enough to do anything about what they know (and see) is wrong. I posted something earlier about my in-law’s, deleting it because I think at heart they’re good people who are human beings, having faults just like anybody else, needing forgiveness too. I do have a grudge against them at this time, wanting to be free of it.


that reminds me of my BF’s encounter with a female psychopath that had several men all competing with each other during the course of a year. He realized what was happening after about a year and he warned 2 of them. One of them, Chris, didn’t believe him. About a year after, he ran into him at a party. Chris was walking toward him looking pretty ragged, he just said, “You were right…” and kept walking. LOL. That was it.
The other man involved was the actual target because he was the millionaire. BF warned him as well, and he thanked him, but it’s hard to say if the P didn’t worm her way back, since there was so much money involved.

So there are different layers of denial.
One layer, is really not seeing, the next is seeing but not believing.
Then we have seeing and believing but not caring because you don’t think it’s hurting you. And then there is the people who see, know and actively participate.

Ox Drover

YOu know you bring up a good point, Blue Jay, The “grudge” against people who have been duped and therefore abuse us or stand by while someone else abuses us—but you know, while I don’t in any way think that carrying bitterness, or a “grudge”, against these people for the rest of our lives, benefits US—in fact, I think carrying bitterness and/or grudges and not resolving those hateful/harmful (to us) feelings is a really BAD thing for ourselves—however, At the same time, I think we can get rid of the bitterness toward those people (i.e. “forgive” them) and yet NOT TRUST THEM or “feel warmly” toward them either.

Looking back at the many times my son C FAILED to protect me from his brother, knowing his brother was doing wrong—clear back to the time that they were teenagers when his brother was driving my car in the middle of the night to commit crimes and son C did NOT stand up, because he wanted to be “accepted” by his thieving brother more than he wanted to DO RIGHT.

Then the times that he knew that the Trojan HOrse P and his brother and my egg donor were TRYING TO FORCE ME TO LEAVE MY HOME (he didn’t know I don’t think about the planned murder—but I’m not sure he would have warned me if he HAD KNOWN THEY INTENDED TO MURDER ME.) He later did come back to me and say a general “Oh, you were so right about them, mom, you were a prophet.” But when the apology came to a “let’s discuss this about the SPECIFICS of what you did” and I asked hiim why he didn’t DO something when he knew the TH-P was remotely controlling my cell phone account and credit card accounts and running up hundreds of dollars of expenses and problems—his answer was a sort of timid whine of “well, I told him NOT to do that.” WTF??????? I “told him not to do that.”????

Okay, so lets say son C wanted to believe and DID BELIEVE I was evil and mistreating poor P son and poor grandma and poor him and poor his wife, and I DESERVED to be run out of my house by any means, and even though he said “Oh,, mom, you were such a prophet” when the rubber met the road, he was not willing to own up to the ABUSE HE HAD WITNESSED AND BEEN A PASSIVE PART OF IT….doing nothing himself, but watching others do it.

Sort of like the guy on the play ground who doesn’t kick the victim with the bullies but he doesn’t call the teacher either. When he is asked WHY he didn’t at least run for help, he says “well, I told them not to hit her.”

I realize I have always seemed to be so “forgiving” (pretending it did not happen) when others either actively or passively abused me, and that is my DEFAULT feeling in dealing with these PASSIVE abusers, or dupes, but at the same time, now, I am also seeing that these people are ALSO not people who can be trusted unless they MAKE FULL ACCOUNTABILITY AND TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT THEY DID OR FAILED TO DO IN SOME CASES.

Hiding behind “I was ashamed to come forward and tell her I was sorry” may be a truthful statement, but I am coming to the conclusion that IS NOT ENOUGH of a “change of heart” or a change of behavior…and sure enough not a valid EXCUSE.

Now, I understand why people who are not really connected with you, just “acquaintances,” would react this way at least in “small” instances of abuse, but for people who have stood by while others were dragged off to concentration camps, or stood by while a child was abused—like those people in NC that didn’t report that they saw evidence that that little girl Zara was being beaten etc.—or the people who stood by while that Kitty Genovesse (spelling?) was stabbed to death over a half hour and screamed for her life didn’t at least call the cops.

I am starting to look at the way my son C behaved REPEATEDLY and see that there is a PATTERN THERE, of him denying my value even as a human being. Him “going along” with whatever his brother and (or others) wanted to do to me—but not seeing any really sincere change of heart in his “remorse”—I do know he has a conscience, but at the same time he is able to beat it to a pulp and still do what he WANTS to do even if he knows it is wrong.

He has learned the family game of “let’s just pretend I didn’t stab you in the back and be friends again until the next time I decide to stab you or remain silent while someone else does.”

He doesn’t get the fact that he objects to and is NC with his grandmother because SHE LIED TO HIM, but it somehow is OK for him to lie to me????

I don’t hate him, I don’t want to go burn his house or slash his tires, and I would be upset if I found out he had a terminal illness, or something else bad–he isn’t a psychopath, but at the same time, he is not someone that I can “excuse” for his lack of moral compass because “he is a follower.”

Funny thing is that if he saw someone being attacked on the street, he would jump in to try to save them, he would call 911 AND jump in physically. He would give his last dollar to a friend without any hope of getting it back—he works hard, is a good employee, and tries to be a good citizen, volunteer fire department etc. yet, he is NOT someone I can trust, or that others can trust too, as I know he has betrayed his own friends in the past as well as me. While I don’t hate him or think he really set out like his P-brother did to “let’s make mom as miserable as possible” he sure didn’t say, “you know these people are abusing this woman and doing illegal and immoral things to her that I am aware of, I can’t be any part of this and I have to warn her so she doesn’t get hurt worse.”

BECAUSE he did not do that, did not choose to ACT on what he knew as bad behavior on the part of others, I cannot ever trust him again, and I can’t excuse that either because I see NO REAL SIGN OF TRUE REMORSE. He recognizes he did wrong, hej even actually cares somewhat that he did poorly, but mainly he JUST EXCUSES HIMSELF. Not the same as deep remorse, not the same as deep feeling of taking and accepting responsibility for our behavior. Not the same at all.


you are on a topic that most interests me right now.
I “get” the P. They are ruthless and without limits because they live in fantasy land. A story land of their own making where the most audacious hero wins, beats the odds, gets the girl, the gold and adoring fans.
They ALL live little Walter Mitty lives inside their heads.
Each of Walter’s fantasy’s was inpired by a mundane little detail he happened to notice. The spath’s “collect/accumulate” those details and use them in their facade to create their own reality. We just happen to be one of those details. Every person who believes their lies, makes it that much more real. That’s why they’re called people of the lie. I submit that there are many more of these liars than we know and there is much less reality in our lives than we are consciously aware of because they’ve taken over the media and government.

The only way I can come close to understanding people who cooperate with the P’s is that they have come under the spell of these lies. The collective details that the P’s used to set the stage put’s cues in their brains and they flow into the drama without thought. Maybe the average human being is not as committed to reality as we think we are.

My spath used to call it “planting a seed”. It’s also called frame control by con artists.

I imagine how astounded you must be to see that “C” can so easily allow others to abuse and destroy you. This was exactly how I felt, when I realized that my friend Kevin knew my spath was using me. And that my parents knew. Intellectually, I can discuss it, but deep down I just find it perplexing and mind-boggling.

Be forwarned, Oxy, your son C will reach out to your egg-doner if he needs something and as no where else to turn. And when he does, she will start scheming. I know that you think you have nothing she wants, but you do. She wants control over you. Ignoring her is a narcissistic injury.

My BF went NC with his N-mother for 10 years because She never called him and when he called her, she was abusive, so he stopped. Then he heard thru the grapevine that she was telling everyone he was dead. WTF? Why do that? Later, they reconciled and he took care of her while she was dying.

I thought about why she would declare him dead. I think she actually believed it. Because if an extension-of-herself, stops calling then there can only be one reason: he MUST be dead. There can be no other fathomable reason to not call your MOTHER! The other possibility is that for a narcissist, their extensions only exist while they are actually visible. Lastly, for a narcissist who loses control of one of their extensions, it feels justifiable to execute the wayward puppet. Declaring them dead works just as well.

Ox Drover

Dear Sky,

It is mind boggling sometimes to think about those who will WITNESS abuse and DO nothing…who will give their silent assent to the abuse by failure to take action to stop it. I think C falls into that catagory.

Whether or not he will go to the egg donor for something (money is the only thing I can think of) I really don’t think he would, but you know you never know what someone will do when the chips are down and if he were living on the street he might. I actually doubt that he would even come to me and ask for help, he would try to get “cozy” and wait for me to OFFER it, but you know, I CAN TELL YOU THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.


In the past I went NC with the egg donor and she did with me, and essentially with P son and C as well at various times for varying periods of time, the old “passive-aggressive carp” bwe all knew it was NOT “forever” just until we had punished or been punished enough to satisfy the family dysfunction.

NOW I at least am in a different place emotionally and in the relationshits. I do not ever have any intention of “being okay” with anything that has happened in the past or with any “apology” because I CANNOT TRUST EITHER OF THEM. If he decided he has punished her enough to have a relationshit with her that is his problem, not mine…I don’t even want to know or care. I am sure she would be glad to give him money in exchange for a relationshit, but I think he has actually got too much PRIDE for him to do that. Plus, he is SCARED of his P brother and he knows that any information he gives to grandma will go directly to P brother.

I think C FINALLY realized that P-brother (or X-brother as he calls him) is DANGEROUS. I think facing the GUN through the door that the 300+ pound Trojan Horse Psychopath was trying to push through while brandishing it sort of “put the fear” into C.

C is NOT afraid of me, but he IS VERY AFRAID of the Trojan Horse P and of his P brother. He is still very hyper vigilant and almost panics at the thought of P-brother getting out of prison. He still sort of lives in TERROR about it all. I no longer live in Terror, caution, yes, but TERROR? NO!!!

I’m actually not afraid of the TH-P at all because I know he is a coward and he KNOWS that both son D and I are armed and would not hesitate to use it. .Also, he doesn’t “hate us” the way My P son does, doesn’t have as much of a grudge. He also has more caution than son P does. P-son would walk in here even if he knew that he would be killed trying to get to us, because ifhe thought he could kill us also, he would consider it a WIN. I can’t see that, but I think that is how he views his entire life….he thinks he is a WINNER?????

He is nothing but a garden variety convict, but he sees himself as the CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE and the SMARTEST MAN in the WORLD. (head shaking here in disbelief.)

Dani S

You are so right on Oxy! I havent had a response yet and after reading your post I almost regret sending him a message! Stupid me trying to fix things again!

Ox Drover

Dani, I think we go into “defalut fix-it” mode or maybe it is “forgive and forget it” mode, but we tend to minimize what someone has done to us or how they have treated us.

I spent most of the day today with my son D and his friend G and we were cutting and sewing a 10 ft by 10 ft. “diamond fly” tent out of rip stop nylon that has been silicone treated for water proofing and sewing it is like nailing jello to a tree, it SLIDESSSSS around.

It was one of those things that we were discussing how to do this difficult part or that difficult part and the discussion was really active but WE WERE HAVING FUN. Just like the 3 of us were the ones that killed the two beeves (G’s brother was here a couple of days with the beef) but I got to thinking how much fun we had and how we treated each other with respect, we discussed different ideas and came to an agreement about how to proceed, and a couple of times when we messed up and had to laborously rip out seams and start over, no one got irritated or cranky or nasty and I thought HOW MUCH FUN it is to do things with people who are respectful, kind, caring, not critical or crabby, or biatching about this or that that you don’t do right.

I’ve realized just how HAPPY I AM with the liars and the hateful, abusive, and just plain nasty people in my life GONE!

While I realize that depression can make us all a bit cranky and I am more than willing to make allowance for people under stress, there comes a point that I can’t make any more excuses for people who either abused me or allowed me to be abused and did nothing—not even apologize in a meaningful fashion.

Life is good when you get the arseholes out of your space!

Best typo ever:

“I am sure she would be glad to give him money in exchange for a relationshit”

Ox Drover

Dear Rozzie,

NOT a typo! Dances with Weiners AKA Henry AKA Hens came up with that “typo” a couple of years ago and we liked it and it sort of stuck as part of the “lovefraud culture” LOL I mostly type “CRAP” as “carp” and there are a few others, that we have come up with as the years go on.

Actually I am sure that my egg donor would exchange money for a relationshit—she kept offering me money and was literally insulted when I turned it down. As long as I was independent financially She had no CONTROL over me, no strings to pull or cut off….and I have been financially independent since I was 17.

She was flinging money around left and right to the (now X) DIL and to the Trojan Horse Psychopath before their arrest for trying to kill my son C and stealing $20K+ from my egg donor. I may be a lot of things, but I have never been “for sale” for financial consideration. People had to KISS me before they could screw me! LOL


Oxy, there is a saying,
“All it takes for evil to flourish, is for good people to do nothing”. Sins of Omission not Commission.


hey MammaGem Sometimes evil flourish’s when good people do do something …

Ox Drover

Yea, but Wiener dancer, I can tell you I would rather TRY to do something than just sit there and say “not my yob, man.” Have you been watching this TV show “what would you do?” where the set up the cameras and then film what people do in cases of a man or woman abusing someone else or various things—-very interesting show. Unfortunately, too many times people do LOOK AND DO NOTHING….not even dial 911.


i dont watch reality tv – if somebody pulled a stunt like that on me i would be so pissed – one time i was walking into a store and a young man was being harrased by another young man in a van – the dood was saying Help me sir he is trying to harm me – well I called 911 and they both jumped in the van and sped off – i think they were trying to get me to come over to the van and mug and rob me…i have called 911 before when I was sure somebody needed help – but there r so many scams ya got to be careful – just look at the mess we got into trying to rescue somebody..

Ox Drover

Gem,, did I tell you I got the “heat index chart” out and at 100 degrees F at 90% humidity (You said david’s study was 104 and 90% humidity) the heat index is 170 degrees! That’s how hot you cook a well done beef roast!!!! OUCH

It got up to 43 today and most of our snow melted but may be more tomorrow! CARRRRZZZEEEEEE weather!


Yea I know Oxy! It got way worse!With 95 % hunmidity also!
Yesterday all day and night, the temp was 45 deg C! {In every room except the Kitchen where e have an air con wall unit. David dragged the spare bedroom single mattress downstairs into the kitchen onto the tiled floor,,and I slep t on the sofa. On Friday last, we went out and bought the biggest best Air con split system unit for the living dining areas , we got around A$500– off,{We got it forA$1,700 all up. and its being delivered free next Wednesday! Hurrah!Also got a free chinese bowl and chop stickset, big deal!This morning it was still 40 deg, but the storm broke at 12. 30 lunch time and now its a pleasant 26 deg C.Raining, what bliss and more to come. I feel so sorry for the poor people of Queensland. First desperate floods, {33 people drowned,}over an area larger than France, Germany and Holland combined, then Cyclone Yasi,in far North Queensland, near Cairns, small towns of Tully, Mission beach, and Cardwell.flattened.-no-one dead thank goodness, but many many homes destroyed .You can see the terrific australian spirit at work, someone had erected a quick signbeside their flattened home, which said in large letters {to god presumably ,or nature:}
“It THAT all you got?” In other words,” bring it on, we aint scared!”
Makes me very proud to be an Aussie.Also every single banana and sugar cane plantation flattened.
Also big bush fires in West Australia. What next, and its only February!God, you tryin to tell us something?
Love, your now much cooler and happier Mama Gem.XX


45 deg C,Thats 114 deg Fahrenheit!WOW!!
Mama gemX

Ox Drover

IN general our place doesn’t get that hot even when the humidity is high–the humidity has come up in recnet years in the summer, didn’t used to be humid up here and we could use a “swamp cooler” which hummidified the air and cooled the house, but no, it is VERY humid. I even have to keep my saddles and leather goods inside the house to keep them from molding.

The boys and I finished one tent called a diamond fly, but it was like sewing it out of silk, it CRAWLED—like nailing jello to a tree! I was pretty proud of us though, we worked together like a well oiled machine and didn’t run a needle into anyone’s finger! We got the material on sale for the end of the bolt for only $1 a yard and the tent would cost $250-300 if you bought one just like it. I think though with 3 of us working on it we made about minimum wage FOR THE HOURS WE ALL WORKED! but it was fun!

Well, it is getting (gotten) late and I’m going to bed! see you tomorrow if I have time between sewing the second tent.


I think where this thread led is very important, could use an article of it’s own?

My husband had dupes, but he also had people who were vicious to me for their own satisfactions. It was like a nest of vampires. I am a pretty solid person, but when many people are invited to feed on you by an spath husband, it’s hard to endure that kind of onslaught.

Now it’s been a couple of years, and the feedback I hear is that yes he was worse than they realized, but I came out okay so they feel No guilt. They excuse themselves for one reason or another. I too have said, well he fooled me so how can I blame others for being fooled.

BUT, once they learned the truth, I was STILL ostracized and IMHO, I think it was b/c they didn’t want to MAN UP and say they were wrong. It takes a lot for people to step up and admit their faults. I don’t understand why b/c admiting my mistakes frees me… but I’ve learned people will go to their graves, or right before if they can, with the truth about their involvement in harming another.

I had a sociology professor, a dear man who was a survivor of the holocast. He tried to answer the question of dupes, or rather, why people DID risk their lives to save another. Because THAT is the exception, that’s why they are heroes. Most will join the spath, or at least enjoy the spectacle of the drama.

If we could understand the dynamics of what happens in the mind of dupes, maybe we could limit some of the damage of the spath. My spath could not have done the depths of damage he did without the EAGER assistance of his dupes, many of which are ADMIRED community members.

Two levels, A) those who were duped into believing he was entitled to his abusive behavior, and gave their tacit approval and B) those who actively engaged an attack as a “favor” for him and basked in his approval for it.


this is also what I’m most interested in.
I can’t help but wonder what causes people to join the spaths. Granted, I was also duped, but he never tried to make he hurt anyone else, maybe because he knew he couldn’t. He DID try to make me HATE other people, and I guess I did fall for it. I simply avoided the people that I hated. He told me how awful they were, that they were crazy or selfish or alcoholics (he used that ALOT) or mean. I had no reason to think he would lie.

But this is where the difference is: when I don’t like or disapprove of someone, I avoid them. The spaths do the exact opposite. They put on the mask of love and actively PURSUE the people that they envy. WTF? Who DOES that?

The accomplices will fall in line and do the same. They will either grab a frenemy mask and pretend to be your friend and actively participate, or they will grab their frenemy mask and make a dash for the best viewing seat in the audience. They revel in the drama.

I used to watch my neighbors’ faces and hear the wicked laughs and smirks and the double-talk. I was puzzled. But it just never occurred to me that they could hate someone who never hurt them.

On the contrary, I bent over backward taking the crazy-husband stealer to her doctor’s appointment when she was ill. Offered her assistance in every way.
I wonder, do they bask in the approval or is it just that they finally get permission to do what they always wanted to do anyway?

In the case of my P-sister, I know that she has a huge void where she should have been given values. She only values money and competition for material goods. This is the only value that my parents taught us. My older sister and I absorbed other values from outside the family. Perhaps it was because we read so much. But P-sister just has a huge void and anyone could have filled it with anything. Her P-husband is taking advantage of that and filling it with evil.

Ox Drover

Katy and Skylar,

Actually, Katy there is a book already written about some of this called A MIND OF ITS OWN, HOW YOUR BRAIN DISTORTS AND DECEIVES by Dr. Cordelia Fine.

I did a review of it the other day ( check back on the blog list of recent articles) IT PERFECTLY EXPLAINS WHY we allow ourselves to be deceived and why we stubbornly refuse to change our minds in spite of evidence we should.

It isn’t just “us” or “them” it is EVERYONE –all humans have this propensity to believe what they want to believe, and to not want to change their minds about their beliefs.

I admit to being as “bad as anyone” about this.

I have a very smart male friend who debates with me various things and I must admit sometimes it is VERY difficult to see that HE IS RIGHT and I should rethink my position on something.

FOR EXAMPLE: Capital punishment (or is it capitOl? can’t remember and dont’ want to take time to look it iup. LOL) Anyway, death penalty—sure I think if you murder someone in cold blood you should be put to death. I agree with that statement.

However, AS OUR COUNTRY ACTUALLY administers “death penalty” punishments in an almost RANDOM way, and because there are so many people who have been convicted who were later PROVEN INNOCENT (not just a technical “get out of jail free card” but REALLY INNOCENT) that the very thought of someone actually being executed for something they didn’t do makes me literally ILL. So, I have changed my mind about death penalty cases, not because I don’t think that people who are TRULY shown to be guilty shouldn’t be put to death, but because our laws frequently include people who have “BAD” EYE WITNESS testimony that convicts them. In 75 % of the cases where someone was freed with DNA, there was an EYE WITNESS who identified them as the guilty party and sometimes TWO eye witnesses who identified them WRONGLY.

Memory is not just a video recording that can be pulled by up when we want it. Memory is more FLUID and changes….and “memories” that are totally false can be easily implanted even accidently, so if you factor in the intentionally bad or suppressed memories and the ones that are “fluid” our memory and our ideas about what or who we saw or what we believe or think we believe or why we should believe it are NOT carved in stone. It is like nailing jello to a tree, it keeps on shifting.

I really do suggest if you are interested in learning about the human mind, memory and how we think and why we do that you get and read this fine book.

Also “If your brain is distracted or under pressure, you will tend to believe statements that you would normally find rather dubious.”

When we have an “initial belief” it is very difficult, sometimes almost impossible, to change an “initial belief.” Dr. Fine say goes on to say, “No matter how bluntly the facts they were based on may be discredited. It’s human nature to try to explain everything that happens around us, perhaps as a way to make life seem less capricious.”

She also says that “It is a curious and somewhat disquieting, fact that effusive flattery dulls the sword of an intellectual opponent far more effectively than mere logical argument. So contrary to popular belief, flattery will get you somewhere.”

Think of how the psychopaths “love bomb” and flatter us to make an initially good impression which then we are very loath to let go of no matter what they do to show us that they are “bad.” Or, how someone else says they are “bad” we will defend them completely. That is how they DISARM US and take away our caution, by flattery and love bombing.


“Flattery will get you somewhere” is very true. I also read that it is far easier to convince people to not do stupid things than it is to convince people to not do EVIL things.

That’s because no one minds appearing evil, but nobody like to appear the fool.

Isn’t that interesting how are egos are arranged? So many of my frenemies really could see nothing WRONG with doing evil. My P-sister even said it’s OKAY to be evil.

But a fluid brain is not enough to explain the dupes. Sure they did things to fit in with the spaths, but there is a certain amount of enjoyment in seeing the scapegoat get “what they deserve” In fact, that is one phrase I know my spath used to tell people about me.

This is why I don’t think 4% is a high enough number for spaths. The number of people who engage in schaudenfraude is just the end of the spectrum which begins with pure sadism and ends with “they got what they deserve”.

The death penalty is a great example of this because it allows a group of people to become judge, jury and executioner of one person who may or may not “deserve” what they get.

The judgement part is the first step. Then all hell breaks lose.


I saw “A MIND OF ITS OWN, HOW YOUR BRAIN DISTORTS AND DECEIVES” by Dr. Cordelia Fine and ordered it.

As a funny:
When I went on Amazon, I typed “a mind of its own”. Guess What came up as #2 book listed? Come on! WOMEN on this board should easily guess this one!! It was “A Mind of It’s Own: A Cultural History of the Penis”

Now you know.

Ox Drover


Breathe, oxy, Breathe!!!!

Ohhhhhhhh! that is a good one Katy! NO SHEET!!!!!

Know why women don’t have brains?

No scrotum to put them in.


well I read the first one, now I guess I have to read the second one! Wouldn’t want to miss out on that kind of info!


sky, it’s a very short book.

Ox Drover

Well, we’re getting rain then snow tonight and I had appointments in town tomorrow, but am NOT going out with snow on top of ice on the roads—let the other fools play bumper cars on the bridges and hills…D and I will just stay hunkered down here in Booneyville til the spring thaw if that’s what it takes….no one is bleeding to death and we’ve got enough food and water to last a while. My sewing machine is still out so I will start on the next tent or on the quilted leg warmers for D and his friend G.

Sky, I did a little looking on the internet for some percentages (these are probably not all that accurate but might give you an idea:

There are supposedly (as of 2006) 6 million adults with bi-polar, or 2.6% of the adult population. Many of these people live Fairly “normal” productive lives with medication and treatment. Others are highly dangerous. Many psychopaths are also bi-polar,

Psychopaths are estimated at 1-4% of the over 18 age

People with depression (of various levels) are 5% of the populations

2.5% of the adult population has a criminal record (these are the folks on the OUTSIDE that are off parole, and 5.6 million were in prioson in 2001.

Schizophrenia is 2.2 million in the US –1.8% of adults over 18

9.5% of adults have a mood disorder of one kind or another, anxiety disorder over 18 years of age is 18.1% and many of those people have more than One disorder.

Obscessive compulsive is 1% or 2.2 million

PTSD is estimatedat 3.5% of adults and that is 7.7 million

Generalized anxiety is 3.1% and social phobia is 6.8% or 15 mijllion

ADHD in adults is 4.1%

Autism is less than 1 %

ASPD is 1%

And avoidant personality disorder is 5.25% of adults.

So if you factor in the people who are drug addicts, alcoholics, etc there are a lot of people who are NOT FUNCTIONAL.

Then there are lots of others who are not so much mentally ill as they are just not much of a moral compass, poor social skills, mentally slow and grew up without learning how to function in a compassionate and nurturing atmosphere.

FActor in the kids who have been born retarded or mentally messed up by fetal alcohol syndrome or born crank or crack babies.

Yea, Katy I think the little darling wanted us to shoot him when I got6 done working him over I turned him over too his mother who worked him over again. Actually he turned out to be a pretty good man, but he was a rap-scallion when he was a young teen.


O.M.G. I think I peed my pants. No scrotum… !!! I have not laughed that hard, that deeply, that long since before the spath! For those who might think they lost their humor, that just might be the return ticket.

I did notice when you listed the people who are not functional, you omitted those with pms/or menopause.

Oxy, I was not a good teen, not for want, but for lack of knowing what to do. I would have accepted someone working me over too, I know b/c those who took the time got my respect and I did want to improve. Good for you. Rescue one kid and only God knows how many people you’ve saved.


One Joy,
you kill me! OK, I’ll read it and write a review: life sucks!
LOL!!! I didn’t even bother to read it, just wrote the review.

Oxy, thanks for the research. I know lots of us are dysfunctional. I just want to know how many actually ENJOY OTHER PEOPLES’ PAIN.

If ASPD is less than 1% then how come I know so many of them?


Well I think I am over my user-name changes..I think I was getting manic cabin fever itis, you gals get raunchy late at nite….oh my…Ox I thot you kept your scrotum in the freezer?


I’m liking your old name, Hens, the best. It’s just easier to remember and really unpretentious, not an affectation and just YOU!

People like you are what is lacking in the world. Be happy and proud that you are who you are. Anyone who doesn’t respect that is just sad.

Ummm….I think you are going to get bonked real hard for that last comment to Oxy, DUCK! QUICK!


You asked, “If ASPD is less than 1% then how come I know so many of them?” I got an answer for ya.

Ever buy a new car? Before, it was like maybe you noticed one or two. but not long after driving your new car, you start to see them and soon they are EVERYWHERE.

Before my spath husband, only his brother stood out as ASPD. Now… there’s a whole nest of them and their whole facebook friends page is filled with them.

super chic

hens, welcome back! LOL
I remember that conversation about the bull scrotum in the freezer,
it makes a nice handbag!! LMAO!!

Does every thread eventually turn to penis talk? Lol…too funny.


rozzie – it seems everytime that Dances with Weiners guy shows up the thread takes a turn to the gutter..somebody should report that dood …!


I am such a degenerate sometimes. I did try to respond to your announcement that Hens was back but the post kept showing up all red! I was funny, but only to me. Late night pervert that I am.

Welcome back. Love your wisdom.

hens, i am glad it’s not just me then lol. usually i am the one responsible for the smut!


I’ve heard of that. It’s called blue-car syndrome.
It wouldn’t be so bad to notice all the spaths and spathettes, but I keep wondering: WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

For example, I met a guy (an old old friend of BF) several months ago. He and his wife married late in life and had a son at almost age 50. She, an architect, goes to work and he stays home taking care of the boy, except for the odd jobs. He smokes pot all day, plays in a band some weekends.

One day he says, “My wife works all day and expects me to make her a nice dinner in the evenings but I don’t. So she has to make it herself, sometimes she just whips something up” All said in a matter of fact tone.

Right then I knew that he is a narcissist: completely ungrateful for what his wife provides. Totally entitled.

A few months later, he says, “one of the things that attracted me to (wife) is that I can manipulate her.”
He didn’t say “love” he said “attracted” and “manipulate her” speaks for itself!

Later, describing his 5 year old boy, he says, “He watches how I manipulate his mom and he’s learning to do it too. But I don’t let him get away with it. He needs to learn to mind his parents”

He is a really nice guy. So respectful to me (except for when he lied, but he’s a terrible liar). Compliments my cooking, takes his plate to the kitchen, carries his weight around our house and is very protective of BF.

So what does that mean? Is he dangerous to be around? Will he turn on me or BF one day? It’s too bad about his son, because he will turn him into a monster and that kid is the sweetest, most adorable kid. When I visit their house, the boy says, “Skylar, I’m so glad I got to see you before you left!” What 5 year old talks like that? He sounds like an adult.


Skylar, yes he may turn on you.
The con i met did when i he found i out him on the net. It was anon but he still found out. Posisbly hacked my email. Not long after my email was sending out spam. He apologized. He knews i know more about his legal issues. they are not in love they are attracted to what a person can do for them. They eye people for what they can use them for. This con i knew lived wit his ex wife famlly for a time. borrowed from her his ex in laws and every ex family member he could. Keep them at arms length if you are in contact them in a social setting. Some like to be around groups to scout out victims but listen to thier words. Or lack of them at times. Most are very charimng and you would not doubt them to be dangerous. IMO that is thier hidden dangerous scam.

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