By | February 6, 2012 116 Comments

Deadly blast proves, once again, that courts don’t understand sociopaths

Judges and Child Protective Services providers, listen up!! Pay attention to the case of Josh Powell, his missing wife, Susan, and their two boys. They’re all dead now.

Susan disappeared in 2009, and Josh was a “person of interest.” Josh and the boys moved in with his father, Steve. Last year Steve gets arrested for child pornography, so the judge gives temporary custody of the boys to their mother’s parents. But he also gives Josh supervised visitation.

So yesterday, when the boys arrived with a social worker for their regular Sunday visitation, Powell let them in, slammed the door shut in the face of the social worker, and blew up the house.

Judges and child protective services workers, know this: If you believe that one parent had something to do with the injury, disappearance or death of the other parent, you must be concerned about the safety of the children.

Most people who commit domestic violence are sociopaths, or have sociopathic traits. Sociopaths care about no one except themselves. It is not possible for a sociopath to kill his wife and love his children.


Susan Powell’s slain sons were ‘beginning to verbalize,’ lawyer says, on

State to examine terms of Josh Powell’s visitation, on

Story suggested by two Lovefraud readers.

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Thanks Donna for posting this article. It was a foreseeable and preventable tragedy.

Edit: I take that back. It was evil, not tragedy

“What happened here … was an act of evil. Do not call it a tragedy because that sanitizes it. This was a terrible act of murder involving two young children,” Pierce County Sheriff Paul Pastor said near the house.


Skylar – THANK YOU….

I looked up the Pierce County Sheriff’s Office and I phoned and left a message of thanks to Sheriff Pastor for “naming it” and not sanitizing it…. I want to support every single person I can catch in an act of calling out evil and not allowing excuses for it.

If more people like the Sheriff stood up – well I think we might have a movement –

Signing off as~
I am fishead.

With thanks to LoveFraud for posting this earlier…
If you haven’t taken the time go check it out do so.

If you want to watch the film and provide some feedback, go to, click on Where To See and use the password: fhmovie


I think Josh had a secret. I think Susan discovered that secret. Yes, dad was a peeper. But worse, dad was a pedophile and Josh was one of his victims, and now Josh was also a pedophile with two sons, one old enough to tell, and possibly did. And Susan confronted him, said she was taking custody of the sons, and was murdered. Not planned. The murder was sloppy. A bizarre camping story that a five year old would recognize as a lie. The red flags were so bright they were blinding. Look at Josh’s ridicule when he commented on his wife being flirtatious. He couldn’t hardly keep his delight off his face. IN that micro moment, he BLAMED her, revealing she deserved to be murdered, b/c his victim was “flirtatious”. (bad, wrong, BLAMED. and must be held accountable, i.e. murdered. Victims are accountable, their abusers are excused.)

Katydid (enraged at failures of family courts and social workers to comprehend the risk of RED FLAGS SO BRIGHT THAT CAN’T BE IGNORED, yet they did.)


This is so horrific! How brave of the BIL to speak out and speak the truth about this evil deed.
I was wondering,
How could they legally refuse to allow him visitation to his children? He was a person of interest in the disappearance of his wife but presumably there wasn’t enough evidence to investigate further…..and no body.

He lost custody of the children, quite rightly but I don’t know how the authorities would have justified him not seeing his children and on what grounds?
Is “suspicion” of murdering his wife enough?

Those poor little boys. RIP


KatyDid ~ I agree with you 100% on what probably happened Not so sure about him being sloppy though, obviously he has the law enforcement agencies puzzled.

Strongawoman ~ I think you are right with the visitation. If I understand this right, from what I have read – The grandparents petitioned for legal custody of the boys and finally obtained that custody when the father’s father was arrested on the child porn charges. When “legal” custody is taken away from a parent, they still have, under the law, “parental rights” to the child which includes visitation (which is now called parenting time). The judge MAY not have had a choice here, according to the law. The judge did choose supervised visitation in an attempt to keep the children safe. Here is the other misconception. If the grandparents petitioned the court for custody, and were awarded custody, the governmental DCF or Children’s Services probably was not involved. In private custody situations, such as this one, Children’s Services either can not or will not conduct the supervision of the visits because they are not the ones with the custody of the kids. Therefore a private visitation service would be hired to do this. They are few and far between and have their own rules regarding how the visits are conducted. I believe I read that this is what was going on in this case, it was a private social worker.

Another thing is, if this creep had been charged with something, anything, then the private agency would have been reguired to have a off-duty paid police officer be present during the visitations. At least that is the way it works in my neck of the woods.

I read that the judge was shown a piece of evidence from his computer that related directly to his children. My question here is why couldn’t the police come up with something to charge him with. Why are there suddenly all these “wait and see” attitudes?

If and when it gets to the point that, as Oxy says, the kids are given RIGHTS and the RIGHTS of the abusive, neglectful parents are taken away, then some of this may stop. Why can’t DCF and the courts use caution on the side of the innocent children.

Thank you Donna for the warning to Children Services and the Courts – if someone would just listen.

ps I wanted to add one last thing – I brought up the fact that the term “visitation” is no longer used, the “experts” have decided it should be called “parenting time” because they believe these people should not just be able to “visit”, but must get the experience of “parenting” their children. That is most likely why it was taking place in his home.

Ox Drover

Yea, this is a really BAAAAD case and I can only hope that it, like the Susan Smith case will get enough national attention that something will be DONE about it…and like the “amber alerts” that came from the loss of that little girl…and actually last year saved a kid….our local police depart is the first in the state of Ark that has a new program. If you have a “special needs child” like an autistic one that runs away or a demented older person who might wander away, you can put a photo and information about them, where they might go etc. at the PO so that as soon as the 911 call comes in the photo and information can be flashed to every cop in the city immediately.

You know it might be a good idea for DV and stalking victims to have their information out there too…..



Private social workers. Who regulates them? And why would a family go private rather than through Children’s Services? It’s very different to the UK.
Sadly our track record on protecting children from evil b******s is appalling. So we hear of children murdered by their parent or children abused on the “At Risk Register” that die at the hands of evil. Protected by none.
Victoria Climbie case was supposed to change everything.

Thanks for answering


Breaks your heart it really does

Ox Drover

He obviously had a PLAN IN PLACE and the house was filled with gas before the kids got out of the car. They, like most kids, ran ahead of the worker to see their daddy….and he slammed the door as soon as they got in there and struck a match…a time of only a few seconds I imagine. Just like the time that the fake Clark Rockefeller had the driver primed to help him grab her and run….told the driver he was getting the kid away from an abuser. The driver fell for it. Or wanted the money or both!

I think it is very hard and difficult to PREDICT which parent will behave like this but I do think that a) the kid starting to talk and b) the nature of the probably sexual offenses made it important for this guy to “protect his mask” and his name if the TRUTH were to come out….not just the murder, I think the murder was the least of the crimes. That however is an OPINION ONLY and probably there will never be any total truth come out about what happened to those children or where that woman’s body lies buried. My prayers and my heart go out to the nurturing grandparents of these children for their losses how horrible it is is incomprehensible to me. God bless them and bring them peace.


Strong ~ I’m not sure who regulates them, if anyone. Sometimes they are picked out by the court, sometimes you are left on your own to find them when supervised visitation is ordered. The family would not have had a choice between Children’s Services and private. Because the children were “out of danger”/”safe” living with the grandparents and they had custody, Children’s Services probably did not have an open case with these kids, so they would not be responsible for providing supervision during visitation time.

The whole thing is just so so broken.


It’s pretty obvious that supervised visitations are required because of concern for the safety of the children. So why isn’t anyone concerned for the safety of the supervisor?

Perhaps supervised visitations should happen in a building with cameras inside and guards outside. Disneyland has security and it doesn’t put a damper on the fun. It’s just not fair to send kids into the lions den every Sunday with only a mild-mannered mary poppins to “supervise”.

Ox Drover

Milo, my guess is that they have to have a social worker license after passing the national test, then that board lets them practice independently. The family of the kids (the grandparents) would probably have a law case against the social worker who let this happen….my guess anyway Since she SHOULD have kept the kids by the hand so he couldn’t pull them into the house and shut the door. But don’t know if they will sue…but she should have mal practice insurance which might pay them something or settle. As far as “regulation” unless there is a complaint or something like this happens, my guess is not much.


to Strongawoman

who do i contact to in uk in case we are attacked again pls…i and our child we are not uk residents…spath is…last time it was his word against mine.
tx in advance


LoveFraud blogs have save my life. I was being to kind to my husbnd that has either Aspergers or is a sociopath. this forum showed me how not to trust or believe.
I follow stories like this one – Powell. I cringe. So many of these guys LOOK normal and ACT so nice.
There really needs to be lessons out there for people.

Fishhead. – Yes, that needs to be advertised a lot more! People need to know about sociopaths. They they can look nice!

I followed the Powell story and others and just crushed when I heard this update. This Dad should not have seen these kids. I read many stories where the courts are smart and do find some way to keep these guys away.

It is painful because if we don’t have bruises or broken house items – they don’t think these guys are violent. Or perverted.

Another story:
Venus Rose Stewart, 32, disappeared on April 26, 2010.
She got custody of the kids. He did kill her and was charged. they never found the body.

I do read cases where the courts find some way to keep the kids from Dad. Powell should have have been allowed to leave Utah.

A blog I read and also saved me:
Eyes for lies – teaches you to read if someone is lying. I could tell when my ex smirked and laghed and changed the subject.
I knew he had potential to kill me – like all these other others. Even though he seemed so sweet and juvenile at age 49.

We have to learn that one meltdown from these guys can kill us.
I am only separated. Once I file divorce – I will never trust of be near him.


I absolutely concur with you. The kids were starting to talk. And I don’t think it stopped at mommy’s murder. I think mommy was murdered b/c she discovered her sons were being sexually molested by her husband, the child of a pedophile AND by their grandfather, the creepy peeper.

I think the murder of the wife was sloppy b/c it was not planned. It was a consequence. I don’t think law enforcement was puzzled, I think they were still building a case. I think SOMEONE was able to put sloppy excuse story together with mommy being missing. And that little boys were starting to tell and being BELIEVED (miracle!) points to authorities continuing to pursue the case.

I did think supervised visits were supposed to be in neutral settings, not at the home. After all, if the danger is so great as to warrant supervision, then the POTENTIAL should fall on side of overprotection, esp when dad is suspected in mom’s murder and gramps computer in the home was full of child porn and therefore can not rule out HIS access to that same computer.

Gramps knows the truth. He’s not going to tell. No remorse. No conscience.


Katy ~ this is the new norm – parenting time – giving the “mommie” or “daddie” the opportunity to enjoy the experience and practice their skills on parenting – so the home is the best place to do that. They are to make food, change diapers, the whole nine yards. These are the “experts” who know what is best. YEA RIGHT – GIVE ME A BREAK. Oh, and the social worker doing the supervision is told to be where they can keep an eye on things, but do not interfere, unless child is in danger.

Sky ~ they are dangerous jobs, that is why around here if the parent requiring supervision has any criminal record that parent must pay for an armed security guard to be on premisis. I don’t think this guy had any record.

Oxy ~ I can only imagine how this woman felt, having to watch this right before your eyes. Oh, my.


Dana ~ stay safe.


Pretty creepy that authorities want the dysfunctional parent to “parent” the child that needs to be protected from them. and that the child’s security and well being must be sacrificed so that their dysfunctional parent can have time to ENJOY playing house. I am angry that the objective is to provide an experience for the dysfunctional parent to practice and enjoy parenting, and NOT have the objective be to protect the physical well being of the child; after all, that’s WHY the child was removed, b/c of the threat to their well being!!


Yea, Katy, try to explain that to the experts. grrrrr


This also creeps me out:
“We really look at the service delivery with the case. Was there anything we can learn about what happened? It’s not necessary to see what went wrong, but how were services delivered. Is there something we can learn?” said Sharon Gilbert, deputy director for field operations at Children’s Administration, which is part of DSHS.

Ummm. NOT NECESSARY TO SEE WHAT WENT WRONG???? Major WTF moment. Ms Gilbert is looking to cover her A*. Ms Gilbert’s attitude is what’s WRONG WITH DSHS.



If you are attacked you must go to the police. If you and your child are in danger you have to get to a place of safety. Do you have friends or family? If you and especially your child is in danger then contact the police, social services or a womans shelter for support and advice. I hope that helps. It’s not much. Don’t stay if you fear for your life. Get help.
Bless you.


I was reading up on this case and hearing a lot about it on the news today.
I decided to check in with Lovefraud knowing the story would probably be posted.
I learned he used an axe on the kids before they burned to death.
The detectives found it near the 3 bodies and the kids had head and neck wounds. He probably did this so the kids couldn’t run out of the house.
The kids were old enough to unlock the doors so before the house ignited he probably knocked them out with the axe. (horrific and sick)
Some folks on the news were saying they hope this got national attention so that in the future court ordered supervised visits would take place at a neutral location provided by the courts and not the personal home of the dysfunctional parent. This way the location could not be booby trapped to injure or kill the kids.
Again I agree the courts DO NOT KNOW the way of the “spath.”

Ox Drover

Yea, I just read the “axe” attack on the kids…..article

Just when you thought “it couldn’t get any worse” it did! OMG what a beast!

New Beginning

Absolutely horrific.


I wonder if it is the first time he used an “axe”? I bet that is the way he killed his wife.

I heard somewhere, can’t remember where, that the computer images that were shown to the judge that prompted her to order a psychological/sexual exam and lie detector depicted women being sexually tortured. Don’t know if it is true or confirmed or not.

Ox Drover

Obviously the judge didn’t trust him…ordering the lie detector as well as the psycho/sexual exam…my bet is that not only had he murdered his wife (because she found out) either he and/or grandpa were abusing the kids and he knew it would come out in the exam and lie detector test.

The hacking the kids though…oh, my God! Why not just fill the house with gas and strike a match? He had to hurt them before the blast! They had betrayed him by remembering and telling…so he had to hurt them. What a piece of shait!

Ox Drover

The last article I read said the social worker is having a hard time. My guess would be PTSD from the trauma…of course it can’t be diagnosed early on and maybe she won’t get it, I hope that she has plenty of support so maybe she will miss that bullet.

Here’s a nice professional article about PTSD, diagnosis and treatment. Hope the link works.

the phoenix

Chiming in on this one since I talked to a friend of mine last night, who lives a bit too close to this whole mess.

Dad was ordered to undergo the psychosexual evaluation. It was forthcoming and he had lost custody until it could be done. When the social worker and kids arrived, as she was parking the car, the kids jumped out and ran to the door. Not her fault, but they just bolted.

He grabbed the kids, locked the door, taking them to and locking them in the room in the center of the house. The social worker ran back to her car and tried calling inside the house before calling her supervisor who told her to hang up and call 911. As she was calling 911- the house blew up.

I hadn’t heard the story about the axe and my friend never mentioned it last night on the phone, but I wouldn’t be surprised in the least. Anything is possible when a spath is involved.

In my opinion, I would say that the police, both in Washington and Utah, were busy building a case against him that would stick. Not wanting any chance of any mishaps, any ‘edge’, loophole or gap for the defense attorney, no they wanted to nail him and not risk any chance of him getting away with it. Doing it right takes time. Unfortunately time is not something the kids had on their side.

In looking for the good in any of this- at least the boys are with their mother. I hope her parents know they did the best they could for her and their grandkids and may peace be with them. They are not alone in their sorrow over a situation that seems it could have somehow been prevented. I think many people across the country feel some sense of loss in trying to make sense of this.

I can only hope the court system, government- that provides funding for social workers, and other agencies involved in work like this, can somehow find a way to change this. Hopefully nobody else will be involved in a sad, similar situation like this before the proper changes are made.

Ox Drover

Thanks Phoenix….I think there are many many people all over the world who are saddened by this horrible event. I hope the poor social worker can find some peace as well. She I am sure did the best she could with the situation. I can’t say that I would have been any more effective than she was. I can imagine the kids bolting right out of the car. This jerk had this planned from the get go as well. Even an armed cop along might not have been able to stop it fast enough.


Good evening all, I am writing from Spanaway, WA not even 5 miles from Graham, WA where the Charlie and Braden were killed…

Someone above mention the look on Josh’s face when his father told that story of Josh’s wife being flirtatious and in a relationship with him. I immediately recognized that to be a lie coming from Josh’s father. Why? Because I saw it in Josh’s face. If anything, his dad tried really hard to do her, not vice versa….and I am so sure she found out about daddy in law doing Josh. I felt that all along. most pedophiles don’t get into regular relationships. All they think about, desire and try to get is with a child. I know because my maternal uncle, tried to molest me and did molest all 3 of his daughters. hE WAS ONLY EVER CHARGED WITH ONE THOUGH!!! And my grandmother protected him. She blamed herself for what he was. After she died, it came out that my grandmother’s father’s brother (my great great uncle who had 10 children 5 girls and 5 boys) was the worst pedophile that hit southern california, he molested everyone of his 5 daughters, he went to jail I believe in the 50’s and was jailed until 1979. But none of this came out until after my grandmother’s death in 1998. I can now look back on things and know there were some issues, great and deep. My grandfather died before his son was charged. My uncle he plead by noncontesting (I think I spelled that right). Anywho……

Mere words cannot explain the pain I felt hearing what this man did to his children as I was driving home from church. I prayed for the kids who are in heaven, even if their death was evil and painful. I also prayed that the grandparents find peace amongst the ugliness that was left behind by satan incarnate. That they be given the strength to endure and finally they find their daughter, so that they all can get closure.

Lovefraud, I thank you too!! I pray for those like me, who were the products of a “SPATH”, mine being my mother. It took many years to get far away (I joined the military and my signed up to go to Europe to get away), spent hundreds of thousands of dollars before I was diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. I originally started out being treated with medication, and have now progressed to not having to take any. The peace in my life surpasses all understanding…..I can spot them right away now. I call it “The Real Con”!!! I am no match for it (he or she) and will run in the opposite direction. I thank GOD that I found HIM amidst all the pain and suffering. But there was nothing like finding the truth in it all. Thank you to this blog as it has been a place for me to come when I attempt to have a pitty party, (tried to tell me my uncle didn;t molest me, but I taunted him!!!!! I would als ask myself, “what did I do to deserve such hate from my mother”, she has tried to get me fired from my job, for a year straight, it was brought to my attention by my grandmothers dearest friend that she was super promisuous, lied about the paternity of my 3 other siblings, especially my terminally ill sister, who went to her death not knowing who her father was, for the past 3 years she tells anyone who will listed that my sister was a DIVA and I can’t even compare to her, GO FIGURE!!! I have enough stories of the generation course that seems to plague our family because of her and my uncle…..who are both psycho/socio pathic!!! As recent as a few years ago, has turn my 2 oldest daughters against me, like I am the crazy one)… I say thank you thank you thank you……I am so much better because of this blog. God bless each and everyone of you.


sorry for the typos….good night!


Hi MyGodisGood,
from another washingtonian, its nice to see you.
I’m sorry your family is so toxic. So many of us can relate. We do know what you have suffered and survived. And it’s better now than it’s ever been because we aren’t blind anymore. We can spot them a mile away.

Don’t be afraid of them, just cautious. Their power is in the disguise. If you know what they are, they can’t fool you and then they can’t hurt you.


Jeepers, what a horrible ending to the article.

What IS it with the legal system, anyway?!

Something similar happened in PA – a father of 2 from a previous marriage and his very young wife with a brand new infant was arrested, charged, and convicted of a number of sexual offenses that had apparently been an ongoing thing with him.

This guy would cruise the local high school in very expensive cars, ply teenaged women with booze, get them into sexual situations, and then VIDEO RECORD what he did to these young women. His young wife was involved in these activities, as well. When they raided his house, they found hundreds (literally, hundreds) of video recordings of his (and, his young wife’s participation) sexual activities.

As if this isn’t horrific enough, the Court granted him visitation with his 2 daughters from the previous marriage 12 & 15 years of age. So… between the time that he was arrested and finally went to trial and, subsequently to prison to serve his time, he had access to these two innocent kids. He was “entitled” to visitation, according to the Court.

So….then, imagine being 12 years old and having your father’s name and vague albiet harrowing details about your father’s crimes in the newspapers and broadcast on the local news stations. What did these children do to deserve being punished for their father’s crimes?!?!

In my opnion, the Courts don’t want to bother with Truth and common sense. They just want to push the cases through the revolving doors and get them off of the dockets.

Ox Drover

Dear MyGodIsGood,

Welcome and thanks for your post….You are not alone in having a family like a nest of rattlesnakes….alll poison. There are several of us here that post and God alone knows how many people here who read and do not post.

Sexual abuse within families is more common I think than can even be imagined. Emotional and physical abuse as well. What goes on behind closed doors is unknown. Unfortunately there are many enabling family members who cover up, protect the perps or pretend it didn’t happen, even if they know.

The family mantra is “protect the dirty linen and keep it quiet” and in my family “pretend we’re a nice normal family” and “what would the neighbors think if they knew?” The ALL important neighbors who could have frankly cared less….in many cases they were as bad or worse than our family, but WE talked about them, but never about ourselves. Only that we were superior to them.

I’m glad that you ahve found LoveFraud, because you are NOT alone….I’m also glad that you have faith and that you are able to access that. Coming up inside such a nest of vipers it is amazing! God bless you!

Ox Drover

Well, look who is at “fault” now that those boys were murdered?

Well, at least according to the monster’s family.


OMG!!! I hate to laugh at such a horrific murder case as this but I just read the article you posted Oxy and I couldn’t contain myself.
His families reasons for making excuses for the evil act Josh Powell committed is horrendous. And you gotta love the name of his kin “the Leeches”. I’m telling you, ya can’t make this stuff up!!!


Oxy and Joanie,

rolling my eyes at that crap blame everyone but powell… and yeah, their name struck me as ironically comical too.

Ox Drover

It makes me think that he must come from a family that blames all bad consequences on someone else. Obviously they believed he took the kids camping at 3 in the morning in freezing weather. Maybe his wife decided to ride in the trunk on the trip and fell into a grave.

People can be so unbelievable.


“Under suspicion” So how far did they investigate? If they had dug into this man’s background and family, they might have discovered the child pornography and other damning evidence that may have saved the children’s lives. In a case like that where the wife went missing, I think they need to investigate as if they were dealing with a sociopath. They have to be cunning like a spath and turn over stones that they may not routinely turn over in a normal case. Poor kids – what a horrific way to die. This saddens me so much.


This absolutely terrifies me. Powell used so much of the same language as my kid’s dad… the same controlling behavior. And what did the courts here in WA state tell me? “It doesn’t matter what he did to you. He’s the father, and he deserves parenting time with his child”. They denied my p.o. and gave him the 50/50 he demanded. What little I was able to prove in terms of how he treated my son did nothing more than order him to attend a parenting class, which of course he reveled in because it gave him a whole lot of well-meaning folks he could fleece. Not only did they invite him back to be a volunteer and shining example of a wonderful father, they even offered to attend our trial on his behalf to sing his praises! No one cared what I had to say. No one cared what my SON and his therapist had to say… they had been “poisoned” by my evil vindictiveness, of course. Then again, if I had been awarded custody, this may have happened.

This MUST change! I feel like it is now my duty to flood every comment section of an article about this story with the word SOCIOPATH. If we don’t call it what it is and force people to deal with this issue, it will continue to be written off as one unfortunate but total random act of a “crazy” person. I hope you join me. Let’s not let the lives and deaths of these two beautiful boys be in vein!!!


freemama ~ I will cetainly join you!!!!!

I heard a well respected psychologist actually acknowledge, and state that this seems to be happening more and more in family courts, that this is not an isolated incident. That this whole idea of parents having “rights” regardless of what they have done to the children or spouses and the children having no “rights” or “best interest” of the child being ignored must stop.

This is happening in all states, not just WA. Those of us who have been through the court system with cases like this know all too well that NO ONE WILL LISTEN. I would bet you, today, right now, that if you had a case being heard and you stated that you were afraid that something like this could happen, and had evidence supporting your claim, you would be laughed at and told “random act of a crazy person” “one in a million” “not a valid argument in this court”.

I also heard a group of prosecuters discussing it on TV. They all said that they understood the police were trying to build an air-tight case for a murder arrest, because you only have one chance to convict. If more evidence is uncovered after the fact it is too late. BUT they said they could not understand why he could not have been charged with kidnapping. He would have been sitting in jail, the kids would have been able to be safe and carefully questioned by a pediatric forensic psychologist to learn what they witnessed. This would have given police all the time they needed to follow their investigation. WHY wasn’t this done?????

I think there is so, so, much more to this whole story and I doubt it will ever all come out. There is also something else that is bothering me and I am torn about even mentioning it. Maybe because I am a grandmother that was put in a position of fighting for her grandchild I am overly sensative, I don’t know. Shortly after this happened, a picture of the boy’s bedroom at the grandparents house was shown. It has bothered me ever since. There were two beds in the room. PERIOD – no toys, no toy shelves, no toy boxes, no pictures on the walls. It was a “cold” sterile room with two beds.

Last night I watched the grandparents being interviewed on Nancy Grace. I know everyone grieves differently and I would never judge another for their emotions, but the grandmother just appeared so cold. AND when it was brought up that he had used a hatchet on the boys, she immediately replied, Oh, that was to knock the boys out so they would not have to experience the fire. It was truly like she was defending him. When asked if he would have killed the social worker too, if she had followed them into the house. Again, immediately she said, Oh, no, he never would have hurt her, he pushed her back out the door.

I was shocked and even more saddened. I don’t know what to think. Who knows what we would say, in our grief, but I would be interested to know if anyone had watched any interviews.

I so agree with freemama – LET OUR VOICES BE HEARD IN ANY WAY WE CAN Maybe a good place to start helping is to read “A petition to save a child’s life” that Donna posted on here this morning – and then take the time to sign

the phoenix

My friend lives in Graham, WA and she said this was actually closer to Pyallup, (sp?) than Graham. Graham gets the attention because their fire department was the first responders on the scene.

Oxy- I read the article you linked to. Seems strange that the one part of the family- the Leaches- would defend him, when another part of the family- Josh’s BIL called him out on it, stating he was incredibly narcissistic and him taking the kids lives was not anything he put past Josh…

So the father/grandfather- Steven has back up while his daughers husband holds them both (him and Josh) accountable. Pretty interesting and makes me wonder how messed up the Leaches are and either of them were also abused as a child or even into adulthood. If they were, one or both of them, it might make it all a little easier to understand why they choose this poistion. Not saying it is ok for them to defend either of them, but at least we would have a better idea why they choose to.


I saw this dynamic in my spath x!husbands family. I called it backward thinking. In reality, it is a lack of CONSCIENCE, no remorse.

There are members of Josh’s family with NO remorse over the deaths of his wife’s little boys. Defending Josh as unable to deal with scrutiny of the justice system. DUH. Mom is missing and Josh’s story is stuff and nonsense? Blow ya away don’t it?

(reminds me of Scott Petersen story about going fishing by himself on Christmas Eve at nearly same spot his wife’s and baby’s body are found. Cause I believed that story too. Yep. It coulda happened!)

My spath x! family gave HUGE approval for being disrespectful to others, (power and domination over others) and they ridiculedanyone being considerate as being weak (what? got that ring in yer nose?). I think therapists call it Enabling, where excuses are made that spin immoral behavior so the perpetrator doesn’t feel bad about themselves. (“he’s only human and humans make mistakes” – talking about the cousin doing time for beating someone up in a road rage incident.)


You know, I didn’t even realize what the original article was about – this is how much I watch the news.

I was HORRIFIED at what this man did, and apparently got away with! HOW could that man have been a “person of interest” in his wife’s disappearance and, yet, just goes on about his business until he finally slips his final cog?

I am nauseated over this – it’s so insane.

Ox Drover
Ox Drover

This is another man I thought would never stand trial……I’m so glad for the family of the victim that he is…he thought he had a perfect crime…to do it in Mexico.


I don’t believe for a minute he knocked the kids out so they wouldn’t feel the fire. I believe he knocked them out so they wouldn’t make a B-Line for the front door. He wanted to go to hell and take the kids with him.
As for the social worker she was very fortunate she didn’t make it into the house or she surely would have met with the same fate. Any “psycho” man who has no regard for human life and could take out his own kin would not hesitate to take out a stranger. So I believe the social worker should count her blessings she didn’t make it into the house.
She has guilt grief for not protecting the kids. There is little she could have actually done.
Let this be a lesson to the state dept. of DCF to send out two case workers on assignment.


This is such a tragedy.

It makes me wonder about the DCF Services type organizations. I wonder if they have oversight by psychiatrists – or appropriately trained clinical staff who can pick up on these personality disorders?

It sure seems like it doesn’t happen. There is no evidence of LEARNING and IMPROVING the operations of these agencies.


Ox Drover

This guy had a known history of violence as a teenager, and I realize it is 20/20 HINDSIGHT but past behavior is a really good indicator of future behavior and that Lacrosse player who killed his GF had threatened to kill her several times and was seen choking her only days before he killed her—-these things need too be taken SERIOUSLY.

Ox Drover

edit: we need to, in actual fact, realize that these social workers are worked like galley slaves many times with way more cases than any human can keep up with and emotionally numbed by their horrid jobs, long hours and nothing but criticism from everyone from the DA to the parents, teachers for either doing too much or not enough. God b less and give peace to that social worker in this case.

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