Do sociopaths know what they are?

I receive a lot of email from readers, and over the years many have asked some variation of the question: Do sociopaths know what they are? Do they realize that something is wrong with them?

The answer varies with the individual sociopath, because they aren’t all the same. Generally, though, I believe sociopaths know that they are different from the rest of the human race. However, most are not bothered by their difference. They view themselves as superior.

It’s easy to see where this attitude comes from. Because sociopathy is highly genetic, and is influenced by the early childhood environment, sociopaths never were anything but sociopaths. They never experienced a true empathetic connection with another human being. They did not develop a desire to love and be loved. Therefore, they do not know what they are missing.

Talking to sociopaths about love and empathy is like talking to someone who has been blind since birth about the color blue. They simply have no frame of reference.

Sociopaths have totally different motivations from the rest of us. As I explained a couple of weeks ago in Sociopathic deceit: Plan or second nature?, they are driven by the desire for power, control and winning. Because they become so good at manipulating others to get what they want, sociopaths perceive themselves as successful, and therefore superior.

When they are diagnosed

Here’s a key point: Sociopaths do not feel any distress due to their disorder. (It’s everyone around them, who have been deceived, manipulated, cheated on, stolen from, etc., who feel distress.) Therefore, sociopaths feel no motivation to change, and do not seek treatment on their own.

When a sociopath ends up in a therapist’s office, it is because he or she was forced to go there. The sociopath was dragged in by a parent or spouse, court-ordered for an evaluation, or was incarcerated and diagnosed by prison staff.

Therefore, sociopaths may be aware of their diagnosis. Again, this does not cause them distress. They either deny it, or figure out a way to use the information to their advantage.

Lovefraud published an article back in 2007 by Dr. Steve entitled, What does the psychopath ‘do’ with this diagnosis? The article makes the point that psychopaths (the term Dr. Steve uses) don’t see themselves as having a problem. One of the most interesting things about this article was that it drew comments from someone with the user name “Secret Monster.” He said was diagnosed as a sociopath and had been in therapy. His comments gave a good insight into how a person with this disorder thinks.

In their own words

Lovefraud has heard from other people who identified themselves sociopaths. I’ve posted a few of their emails. My objective wasn’t to give them a platform; it was to show Lovefraud readers how sociopaths look at the world and how they go about manipulating others. The more we understand what they’re about, the better we can protect ourselves.

Here are two of those stories:

Letters to Lovefraud: Female sociopath shares her experience of growing up with one and using what she learned

Letters to Lovefraud: I am a sociopath

About a month after the second letter posted, I received another email from the man who wrote it:

I was very disappointed to find that you didn’t permit commenting on my letter that you posted, I was really looking forward to the responses I would receive.

I decided to search my letter online and I quickly found that it spread to numerous sites. Some of the websites allowed readers to comment and this is what I mainly gathered from the comments. People found that I was arrogant and that I enjoyed “bragging” about my intellectual ability, mainly my IQ. People also made it clear that they feel sorry for me. Fuck them.

Many readers shared that they know me but they don’t so I assume that I represent a certain sociopathic person in their lives. An archetype of what they collectively despise.

I decided to read a couple of articles on your website which you had personally wrote and you don’t have to have an aptitude at discerning to realise that you hate me. And by “me” I mean sociopaths as a whole. You do love to quote our good friends Robert Hare and Martha Stout, who are both idiots I must add.

I’ve been reading up, hitting the books ya know?, and I’ve found that some researchers and psychologists have a theory that Sociopathy/Psychopathy is not a disorder but rather an evolutionary response. Humans were created to excel and we wouldn’t be that good at it if we felt bad about our achievements.

Some people are just so stupid. They cling to their moronic convictions and when confronted with contrary evidence they still hold on to their prior beliefs. It’s pathetic. They say things that are blatantly false such as how all sociopaths are criminals or that the good ol’ anti-sociopath people are smarter than the sociopaths. Of course there are some examples when this is true but on the most part we are smarter.

I understand that it is your hobby or maybe even job, but you do seem to dislike sociopaths. I could probably find the reason if I cared enough to read your bio that you probably have on the website but where’s the fun in that? You are extremely negative towards people who you say are “struggling” with this “disorder”. Seems quite hypocritical of you to go extremely anti-sociopath. You may not know it but you are breeding the next generation of sociopath haters. Of course we don’t really care but I’d appreciate it if your website was more about raising awareness and helping people get over traumas than going on the full attack.

Proof of my point

I’ve received similar letters from a few other people who claim to be sociopaths. They say I don’t know what I’m talking about, I’m judgmental, I shouldn’t refer to sociopaths as if they are all monsters.

I look at these letters as typical sociopathic trivializing, blaming, manipulation—and proof of my point. Many sociopaths know exactly what they are and what they are doing. They know the difference between right and wrong. They know that they hurt people. But they are fine with their behavior and have no motivation to change.

So to answer the original question, yes, many sociopath know what they are, but they don’t think anything is wrong with them.


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73 Comments on "Do sociopaths know what they are?"

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The comments about seeing themselves as superior are spot on for my spath mother. She was gorgeous – looked just like Ingrid Bergman in the movie “Casablanca.” So you can imagine how easily she got away with everything. She actually worked hard on me to turn me into a manipulator – putting me into all kinds of situations which I could not handle and trying to teach me how to lie. Bless my heart – I always disappointed her and I had undiagnosed Celiac Disease which rendered me scrawny and far from good looking.

She honestly believed that winning made her right. There was zero acknowledgement of the rights of others. She would laugh off any confrontations. And she would be enraged when anything or anyone got in the way of her unpredictable impulses.

So – spot on about the attitude of superiority. And thank goodness I know better now. Wish I had known sooner but I’m grateful for the change in paradigm and the opportunity to recover.

Great article, Donna!

Something Joel Osteen said comes to mind with reading the sociopath’s comment above. Joel notes “The enemy always fights the hardest when he knows God has something great in store for you.” In my opinion, God has given us lovefraud through you. It is our place to heal and the sociopath hates that. When the world is educated, the sociopath will no longer be able to wreak havoc as they have for so long.

The sociopath that was previously in my life made a comment to me one night just after he slammed my body into a wall. He stated, “I know what I do is wrong, but that is who I am. Take it or leave it.” Thank goodness I left.

The last sentence is one of the things that is so perplexing to me. They know what they are. They know what they do but they don’t think anything is wrong with them. They see the aftermath of what they do in that the string of targets hate them and surely they see other people (men) around them, friends etc. not doing the same things. How do they totally miss the connection of themselves and the people they have left in the dust. The people like me who would love to see their rancid existence removed from the planet.

If they are so superior, then why don’t they just stick to relationships with their own kind? Then they don’t cause pain, or get accused of causing pain, to non-sociopaths/empaths, and we have less reason to dislike them as a group. I met a young self-described sociopath online, and I told him the things my narc/socio exbf did to me, and he was disgusted by it because he still has his own values of honor. I think that, along the spectrum, there are some who do not cause hurt on purpose or are clueless or are trying to do better to get along with others. And then there are the extremes who affect many people because of multiple relationships (and work, family relations also), so like any group – the people that have been negatively affected by that have to be more cautious and aware of any. It doesn’t mean we dislike all the people who have it, though we can still dislike the effects and choose to keep our distance from it. And on these group-help sites, its mostly those who were hurt by the extremes, so that is what they refer to, imho.

Thank you for this article, Donna. I think the way this sociopath and others focused on the word “monster” is so telling! The spath I survived told the OW, in regards to his treatment of me, “I know I was a monster to an innocent person.” He just described his pathology in a nutshell with that one-liner!

One of the cardinal signs of sociopathy is pathological lying, right? So everything and anything that any self-proclaimed sociopath says is up for speculation. That’s why I think it’s so hard to determine if they REALLY know what they are. And how can they really, truly know what they are, given that their narcissism and lack of normal emotions prevents them from ever having any true insight into the reality of their personalities? But like you said, the letters from this loser just prove everything that you’re saying here on Lovefraud.

That is so interesting because my sociopath used the word monster too! She said “You act like I’m a monster who doesn’t deserve to walk this earth.” I never said that to her but I did feel that way. This makes me think that either someone else said it to her or maybe that’s how she sees herself.

Thanks for posting this article.It helps to “get into the mind” of the sociopath,to try to understand why they act the way they do.

I didn’t reread the letter from the sociopath as I found the email from him reminded me of my husband…wordy.He LOVED to hear himself speak and could be quite charming and grandiose!He also loves to act more important than he is!These people need to take warning from the real life example found in the Scriptures at Acts 21:21-23!

I did read the experience shared by a female sociopath;and found that atleast some of her MO was the same as my husband’s.She described how her mother would “hit where it hurts”,by deteriorating the mind,and making suggestions,whereupon she and her sister were to choose the right decision.Of course,whatever answer they came up with,was always wrong!She learned sociopathic behavior from her mother.She went on to to say that the target person would start questioning themselves on anything and everything.Once the person’s thought process was weakened,they could be controlled.This is EXACTLY what happened to me!

findingtruth quoted Joel Osteen as saying “The enemy always fights the hardest when he knows God has something great in store for you.” I know now that my husband used me to hopefully look like a “spiritual man” since I am a spiritual person and have alot of friends in the congregation.He has actually proven to be jealous of me because he Knows I am genuine and he is not.I guess he hoped if he mirrored me long enough that would be all that was necessary.He is in denial about the heart being involved.

I thought it was interesting what she said about the need for the sociopath/parasite to keep the host body/target alive because they need them in order to stay alive themselves.From reading many stories here,they move on to other victims,but as she was saying,most parasites eventually kill the host body they have attached themselves to(or the person leaves)and they die themselves because of causing so much damage;no longer having a host body to live off of.

I think they do know what they are. My ex-boyfriend (a sociopath) likes to cloak his manipulative and deceitful ways to being a “military guy.” He even says he only hangs out with other military people as if he and they are superior to everyone else. He is always talking about how he used people. He said he only brought his ex-wife back to live with him after their separation so he could collect extra pay from the military. He was always bragging about how he worked people to do what he wanted them to do. I know he was abused as a child, but in his mid-forties, it’s his responsibility to get some help. But I believe he is too far gone. And I don’t think he wants help. I think he rationalizes and romanticizes his worst behaviors as if they are evidence of his superiority to other people. The military thing is just a smoke screen.

Military attract’s physcopaths, they can kill for free..

My late spath was diagnosed as a sociopath by a clinical psychologist who is also a forensic psychologist. I have been with this doctor over 3 years. In addition to my recollections,(I had known the spath 47 years, since little kids, and was married to him for 33 years) the doctor had tens of thousands of emails(only sent me one), loads of internet posts, as well as other indisputable documents, to work with.

The spath was very intelligent, he was IQ tested twice, one score 184 and the other 181. Professional Ivy League education, fluent in 5 languages. But like many spaths, he could not function in the real world. In 28 years, he worked for a total of less than 6 years in 3 jobs, last worked in 1993. He never had any money.

The spath lived a double, and then some, life for the last 5 years of his life.

In many of his writings he said “I have been living a double life for 2, 3, 4, 5, years(depending on when he wrote). I used to know which was the real one, but I am no longer sure.”

Did he know what he was doing, by all means. He even wrote on a web bulletin board a very detailed ‘how to live a double life and not get caught’ check list which included cell phone, computer, and mail monitoring tips. He knew how to get my mother’s brokerage house to change the phone number assigned to her account to his cell number. He knew how to create documents that appeared real. He knew how to keep his lies straight, depending on who he was talking with. He knew that he could never let these world/people intersect.

He even went to see a long practicing psycho analyst for the 13 months before he died. Not because he believed he had a problem, he first called the doctor to let her know that one of his “girlfriends”, a long term patient of hers, died. The doctor told him to make an appointment so that she could help him get over his “bereavement’. Bereavement, he was screwing hundreds, yes hundreds, of other girls while he was with her and 2 days after this woman’s burial, he was trolling for new girls on new sites. But this analyst was feeding his ego. I spoke to this doctor and she never had a clue that everything he told her was all lies.

Did he know that he was a sociopath, no I don’t believe he did. He certainly knew that much of what he was doing was criminal. He knew he was a con man. He knew he was inordinately intelligent. He believed himself smarter and better than the rest of the world. He knew that certain things, beyond his control (health, accidents, human error), could destroy the fantasy world he created, expose him to the real world, and very likely send him to jail. By being a con man, he knew he had to live in a “sub world” populated by people who would never ask questions or expose him. He was always very rational and got angry and at times violent if anyone expressed emotions or feelings; but he knew how to emulate emotions and feelings when necessary. He also knew that many people considered him to be very charming.

But how could he consider himself a sociopath, when the last words he said to me, 36 hours before a massive heart attack, were “this is all your fault”. At the time, I had no idea what he was talking about.

Lost, my heart aches for you… I can read the pain in your post…
I too married someone I thought was my best friend since childhood. I was married to him for 28 years. He was leading a double life for atleast five of those last years before the mask slipped and I was discarded. My ex now lives in that “sub world” you talk about… he too is exceptionally intelligent and equally cunning. I feel they come into our lives to allow us to learn BIG life lessons. I hope you are taking tender care of yourself now!!!

Hi Imara and Everyone,

Yes, I am in pain, but I have progressed to the point where I can admit it.

I had nothing in my name. The spath not only stole money, via fraud and forgery. Money, that my father worked 35 plus years for, 7 days a week, 12 hour days, no vacations, in his gourmet candy shop(decades before Food Network).

In the last week of his life, the spath stole every piece of well secured jewelry in the house. My father’s pinky ring and class ring that he never took off until he was hospitalized; my mother’s wedding band, circa 1949; an initial pin my high school boyfriend gave me for my 16th birthday; my mother’s cross and my cross; my late uncle’s ring; my grandmother’s, who died before I was born, ring, 2 bracelets and earrings. And then there was the expensive stuff, jewelry accumulated over my parents 49 year marriage; as well as all of the baubles my father and uncle(unmarried) bought me over the years.

How do I know the time schedule, I went to church the Saturday night, a week before he died and I grabbed a watch; nothing was out of place or obviously missing.

He also, in that last week of his life, took my mother collection of two dollar bills, silver dollars, and other coins that caught her fancy. Expensive, no, but part of my mother, something she enjoyed.

What he did with the jewelry is anyone’s guess. One lawyer suggested he could have sold it on the street for a few grand. He could have given it to any of his ‘girlies’. He could have just trashed it, to destroy any connection to my family. Or he could have put it in a storage unit; as I was to find out, he rented in the name of his dead ‘girlie’s’ daughter. A storage unit paid for with a credit card that he obtain by forging my mother’s name, again. Of course he had the credit card company issue a card in his name as well. He paid the bills on that credit card directly from the infamous stock account. a storage unit that I, nor my PI, nor others could get into. A storage unit which this gal cleaned out, while I and my team were trying to get into.

I have nothing tangible and ever lasting left of my parents, nothing of my grandmother or uncle, nothing of my past. I have nothing of his ancestry to give to my son.

For the last 6 1/2 years of her life, my son and I took care of my mother. The total loss of vision, was just the beginning. I am not looking for praise, she took care of us, it was our time to take care of her. It’s what people do. The spath, who I was looking to divorce since 1986, used this time to “come out”. As he wrote, ” life-changing crises – and one for which I am so thankful!”

Did the spath know he was ill? About 2 weeks before he died, he came into the kitchen while I was checking my mother’s BP, looking white as a sheet. Being a human being, I asked to take his BP and he let me. It was 190/160. Again, being a person, I offered to call an ambulance, to drive him to the hospital (he lost his license in 1993), to take him to a 24 hour clinic. When he said no to all of those, I told him I would call one of my mother’s doctor’s and make an appointment for him. He gave me no argument. The following morning I did that for the following day. In the afternoon I got a call from the doctor’s office that he cancelled the appointment. As I was to find out in the weeks following his death he told the psycho analyst he was seeing for bereavement guidance that he had been blacking out, for up to 10 minutes, since September; I also found out, from a series of text messages, that he passed out in one of his ‘girlies’ place. While cleaning out the mess he left my son and I discovered that he was self medicating by stealing a few of my mom’s prescriptions. Pills that I would not have noticed were missing as most of her prescriptions were 90 day dosages and some pills we always wasted as she was difficult to give medication to, something her doctors were aware of.

I honestly believe that he knew he was very sick, but would have rather died, then end up in a situation that he had no control of.

I am also hurt that for the last 9 months of my mother’s life (from November to May), the spath had created such a disaster that brought the legal mess, I could not mentally give my mother the full attention she deserved.

Thank you all for your thoughts

lost everything,
Welcome to Lovefraud!Your story is amazing!It allows us to see the “criminal”(although not murderous) side of a sociopath who atleast recognized what he was doing,even if he didn’t know the term for it.

It reminds me of how my husband would brag about being a good actor and con man.At the time,I had no idea what the implications of those words were!I was naive,and he was street-wise,having grown up in the city.

Lost Everything,

That last line your ex said to you is absolutely haunting. “This is all your fault.” My ex-husband and the ex-boyfriend I became involved with after two years of being on my own were quick to go from lovebombing to devaluing me and treating me with hostility and contempt.

It just goes to show you that this personality type will never change. His last few days on earth and that is what he said, “This is all your fault.”

To sociopaths, people are sources and also targets where they can aim their blame, resentment and hostility. I think they turn like a rabid dog on those closest to them, on the people who care for them the most. But mostly, I think they turn hostile to the person who sees them for who they are. They don’t like to be known.

I was standing in my ex-boyfriend’s condo last week ready to leave. I knew something was very wrong because his lovebombing was turning to hostility and he was being secretive. Of course, he was calling his ex (a former crack addict who stole from him, according to his story) behind my back. He was calling and texting her like mad for about ten days. He was doing this after he broke into my email and facebook accounts and read all of my personal messages that were exchanged before I knew him. He was controlling, jealous, and paranoid. I should have know that this was a sign that he was the one who was capable of sneaking around.

I believe he had a lot of things going on with other women even though he tried to spend 24-7 with me. When I asked for a night off to stay home and get stuff done (and get much needed sleep) he was resentful and passive aggressive. I’m sure he was contacting other women like mad and I believe the one night I was away he went to the bar. Although, he swears he doesn’t like bars. I think that is him mirroring me. I told him I don’t care for the bar scene, so suddenly he doesn’t like it either. I say suddenly, because he was going to the bar all the time in the months leading up to our first lunch date. And it was with a girl who was young enough to be his daughter who was in his military unit.

He claimed that men and women could not be friends when it came to me and my life. Yet, it was okay if you were in a military unit with someone. So it was okay for him (in his mid forties) to go out and get drunk with a girl in her early 20s.

There are so many games, lies, double standards and violations with these people. It’s mind-boggling. But as your story shows us, they will live and die this way.


I got subpoenaed by my ex-bf’s ex-wife. She is taking him to court because of his behavior around their son and she wants supervised visits. They want me to testify about this. The court date is in 2 days. I sooo do not want to sit in there and have to see him. But I don’t have a choice! He is going to be extremely mad.

I knew he got served these papers before I broke up with him. He told me that if I was called to testify that I was to only answer: yes, no and I don’t remember. I told him that I would NOT lie for him. I would only answer truthfully.


A wow today after reading the articles from real sociopaths and how they operate. In a way, worse than I thought, hearing the first-person accounts. The curious thing about my predator is that she has all these degrees, up to a doctorate ones, of course, in fields related to human behavior, and all kinds of certifications. In the work setting we all thought it was excessive and we all instinctively knew to keep our distance. I did, but not enough, so I became a target. We always thought that this was some kind of compensation for a lack. More so, she would probably have more reason to think everyone else is stupid. To me, its a shell of a person studying the latest in human behavior for her own end. Scary! Would not like to know what her motivations were to begin this process. At least her realm of domain, so to speak, it is managing (controlling) others, and her skills were sorely lacking in this area. She must have some idea of who she is, but its almost like why does it matter that she knows. These first person accounts really point out how they are beyond help and how the patterns are so ingrained, from family dynamics, and “work” for them.

I read this with great interest. My ex does not view himself as being this way. He says he has feelings and empathy. I do know that he doesn’t know how to love a woman as a wife. He does not have the ability to put anyone before himself. He blames others for things that have happened in his life. Honestly…I blame his mother for this. She raised him to think that the world began and will end with him. There were his 2 other siblings, then HIM. As the only son, she idolized him as she does to this day.

I definitely will be telling the truth!!
My only hope is that if he lies while on the stand, then it will be revealed and he will be charged with perjury!

First I feel I must address the idea that sociopaths are up the evolutionary scale. Sociopaths are parasites which is lower on the evolutionary scale. Without regular people who have jobs and earnings they would have no hosts. A parasite without a host dies. They end up in prison far more than the ordinary folks. If you take these to facts alone you do not come upwith a person with superior intelligence but rather inferior intelligence. The only way you survive at all is that the populouse does not understand your condition and therfore do not see you coming. As people become informed your way of life will continue to erode. That is why websites such as this are valuable. That is why intelligent people feel sorry for you. Donna’s point is well taken. If you get caught lying to the court which is highly likely since that is all you know. You and your self important ass will end up in prison.

This article addresses something I think about quite often even today, a year after the break-up. I’m not sure why it’s so important to me to know if he knows what he is (perhaps part of making sense of the non-sensical) but I experienced so much conflicting word and action, it will be something I never know I suppose.

When we first got together, he suggested, on SEVERAL occassions, that we watch his favorite movie ‘Six Degrees of Separation’ (which is about a spath) together, as if it were a classic like ‘Gone with the Wind’. Thought nothing of it of course…After the break-up he said things like “this is not a rejection of you” (in response to my trying to keep us together) and “it’s not all my fault, it’s VERY complicated”.

So I guess I was wrong above – I do know the answer to the question does he know what he is!

My abuser was aware he was ‘different’. He told me he felt ashamed that his father’s parents had brought him up when his mother left his father. He hates and fears his father who is psychopathic ( killed his half brother’s cat, beat his five children from 4 women, broke his mother’s nose, went to swinging parties , gambled to the point where his parents had to sell property to keep him out of jail). He has no close friends only acquaintances and he is not liked by his colleagues (he has unusually worked in the same place for 15 years but always avoids picnics, retirement parties etc even goes home everyday for lunch although there is a subsidised canteen). He is aware that it would ‘ look bad’ to the average person that he abandoned his first wife and child, and is doing all he can to destroy his second marriage which will result in his second son living 3000miles away. His mask of respectability is very important to him. But this in no way translates into him earnestly wanting to behave in ways that merit respect and his abuse of his wives and of me , his sexual deviance, envy of people with money and bigger homes, infidelity, lies, emotional abuse of his children, none of this registers with him asprofoundly wrong, or as behaviour he choses and is entirely responsible for. None of the negative consequences of his behaviour are causes for self reflection or commitment to change. He cheats because his wife ‘stopped loving him’. He no longer tries to maintain a relationship with his first son because ‘ he is just like his mother, he hates me’ I just remembered he told me he had a friend once – they were going to invest in a restaurant together. The friend killed himself. Hatred and violence and trauma just hangs about this man. But none of it is his fault. Ever.

Donna, if you feel this thread is not the appropriate place for this post, please feel free to move it or delete it.


This post thread might be a good time to bring up something that has been bothering me for a while. Before I found “Lovefraud”, I had been active, more reading than posting as I had been told by other members that I did not belong on their board as my spath had died, in an online divorce community.

One common thread in that community was that “the person you marry is not the person you divorce”.

I am not sure if that is true, especially with spaths.

However because of his crimes, my spath, his behavior and actions have been autopsied more times than if Quincy, Body of Proof, and all of the MEs on the CSI franchise banded together on a single case.

I see now, 4 years down the road and with the help of the “autopsy experts”, that his behavior at 8 was the beginning of a con man. Every week, the neighborhood kids would all gather at the local candy store when the delivery of new comic books would come in. If the comic he wanted was almost sold out, he would ‘play’ the ” I am a latch key kid and will be home by myself” or “my parents are divorced and I never met my father” card to get another kid to let him (the spath) buy the comic book.

When I look back to the relationship I had, he was a seemingly good person while living in married student housing. He started to become physically abusive during his last semester in law school. After he finished schooling, the spath was always on his best behavior when we were on vacations. He gave off all of the signs of not being able to deal with the real world. I just missed the red flags. Actually I was never able to put the pieces in perspective.

Do most spaths, be they friends, boyfriend/girlfriend, friend with benefits, SO, spouse, ex, show their true colors and do we, in real world, just write off these warning signals? Do they learn early on what buttons to push, to get their way?

I know that I justified his behavior to others, and especially myself, because I did songs and dances as well as begged and pleaded my parents to help with law school expenses. Instead of making him earn the fancy education, I wanted to make it easy for him to succeed for the future. I could not face that I made a big mistake on his behalf. Yes, I DID enable him and he knew me well enough to play me for all it was worth.

He was the same person as a child as he was when he died. He became more sophisticated as he aged. His goals progressed from comic books to money. His actions from convincing a teacher to let him hand in a paper late to outrageous sexual behavior. His targets went from classmates to stock brokers. The people he took advantage were no longer kids with a stay at home mom rather a blind senior citizen and her preoccupied naive daughter (me). His place of comfort was no longer an academic setting but the very dark underworld of society’s lost souls. No matter which world he was a part of, he always played the right notes so that he was the lionized one. Yes, people in the sub world do worship some of their own.

I still do not believe he did know that he was a sociopath, just a person smart and cunning, that if he surrounded himself with the right people, he could be a Peter Pan and never have to grow up and face the real world and problems it creates.

This article and subsequent postings have been so timely. Just this weekend I was speaking to the “P” that I am married to ( we are currently separated). I mentioned to him that he didn’t think like me or in fact most other people. His response was that it was true, that he never really cared whose feelings he hurt when he did something.

another comment that he said was that it wasn’t his directive to “hurt me”, I said what the hell are you a robot. No comment from him of course. He was very glib and even gave me a hug as if that made up for all of the lies and cheating on me.

I can see now that he has changed his mask and seems to be much more charming and very talkative. He also said that he realized that he needed to talk more, while I said that he certainly talked enough, just not about his feelings. He said that he had a hard time with that, keeping his feelings bottled up and that it was difficult for him to do. I said that he certainly had no problem expressing anger and he kind of smirked at that. He and I have rarely seen each other face to face in 8 months and it is so odd that he does seem like a different person- even our youngest son said that he felt that dad seemed happier and nicer.

I wonder why that is? When we were together he often seemed depressed.

Well, I saw the signs and I got away. So I think it is possible to spot a sociopath. The main problem is that their first weapon is usually their charm, so we are ready to buy their lies, but if you pay attention to their inconsistencies you know from the beginning their is something awkward in them. I think if all victims here recall the beginnings of their story with the spath, I’m sure they can remember those moments. For me, that discordance was the reason why I began to test him, no matter how seduced by him I already was, because I perceived a danger. Then you begin to ask the right questions to the right people and you unmask him, at least towards yourself.

Very wise of you. I experienced the EXACT same thing. Happy to hear you kept your cool enough to ask questions to those who knew, and not believe him. I had to look twice to make sure that your post wasn’t mine!

If I show the fMRI report to them does it make any difference?

I know here people are very critical towards spaths. I’m not the one to blame them for that, they were their victims. But I still wonder if they are the heartless individuals some are picturing here. I wonder if in most of the cases spaths do have a problem to love, but not because they are heartless or lack empathy, just because they feel a big mental gap between their way of perceiving reality and others.

The spath of the letter said to have enjoyed the company of another spath, somebody he perceived as an equal, he respected. Maybe the reason why spaths behave how they behave is because they don’t have enough similarities with others as to feel this respect for them. Maybe, spaths could eventually fall in love just with other spaths, and maybe the term “spath” defines a pattern of behavior, and not a disorder.

Spaths are actually not the only people who behave in a non respectful way towards others. Racists are not necessarily spaths and also will use and abuse people they don’t perceive as an equal.

I wonder what you think about this.

A person without empathy, and whose code of conduct allows them to act badly toward others (lack of conscience) would likely be termed a psychopath or a sociopath. Keep in mind, we use these terms as a catch-all, but they have specific definitions in medical usage. A person who is a racist could be a psychopath or a sociopath, but it would be hard to imagine their not being either.

We’re all entitled to our likes and dislikes as we go through life. But acting out with cruelty toward another person, whether it’s because of the color of their skin or any other reason, takes a lack of empathy and conscience. People either have empathy and conscience or they don’t. While you may see this void displayed in how they deal with race issues, it won’t magically be reoriented in how they deal with other things.

You’re correct that often some psychopaths get along with other psychopaths. While one lies, the other swears to it. They support each other’s mal-adaptive way of being and give validation to each other.

In order to feel love for a person, we must be able to put ourselves in their shoes. That’s empathy. Without that ability, a person can want and need, but not love. Love is simply a feeling they don’t comprehend. So they can lie, cheat or steal to attract and manipulate people into their lives, but their association with them is only as deep as their need for them.

How can you be so sure that they are unable to love? A person rarely places themselves into everybody else’s shoes. Usually they place themselves mostly in the shoes of people they feel alike to, like from their family, their community, their country etc” (That’s what I meant with the racist example.)

The fact that a person feels very disconnected from the people of his/her environment, might not mean that they can’t love but that they do not love those people. Maybe to understand the spath you have to understand how a “normal” person treats those they dislike and imagine the group of their dislikes to be so large that they hardly use their empathy traits in daily life.

Good points. That’s probably true of a lot of spaths. I’ve sometimes wondered about that too; but I’ve decided it doesn’t make much difference if they refuse to exercise strength of character in honoring the rights of those they can’t relate to, and prefer the self-indulgence of abusing what they dislike or do not understand. And a spath is nothing if not self-indulgent.


Do spaths get jealous?

Do kids get jealous when another kid picks their toys? The same.

Interesting thread regarding does the psychopath have the ability to empathize or love. The placing yourself in others shoes discussion especially is what made me want to comment. Here goes:

My understanding of empathy is that you understand intellectually what it is like to be in the other person’s shoes. Can and does a psychopath have this ability? I’d hazard a guess that yes, they do. I think the clincher question is do they care? Can they sympathize? Does a tear come to the psychopath’s eye when he hears that I am homeless and broke as a result of his actions. Again, I’d hazard a guess, no he does not care, have any sympathy nor does he tear up over the situation. He either chooses not to or is not capable of that part of the equation. Nonetheless, his lack of feeling for another person or person’s situation is absent.

Let’s compare and contrast sympathy and empathy. If empathy is the understanding with lack of feeling and sympathy is understanding and the want or inert ability to feel what it might be like to be in that other person shoes; then in theory (mine) the psychopath can have empathy. The sympathetic non psychopath might choose not to emote or even act on those feelings but they have them (guilt, sorrow, pity, remorse, etc.). The psychopathic person just isn’t capable or choses not to care about the other person and doesn’t experience guilt, sorrow, pity or remorse, etc. And that is the difference at least to me.

Think about the times you tear up a moving commercial or movie – it’s not even real and we as non psychopaths immediately empathize and then move to sympathy over the event before us. I doubt a this has ever happened to a psychopath. And they believe that is what makes them superior I suspect.

Lot’s to think about when it comes to the gray fog shrouding this disorder and how carefully we must choose our thoughts and words on the subject. Lillian

I just wanted to add a comment of my experience. I remember when I first met my spath 10 years ago. He was charming to a fault. I was married and so was he. He was relentless in wanting to be with me. No matter how hard I pushed him away, he begged, he pleaded, he manipulated, he charmed me and his charm won me over. I remember one time in the beginning him saying to me “I wish my son had never been born. He’s getting in the way of my life and what I want”. I couldn’t believe my ears. I said to him “You don’t mean that”. And he said “Yes I do”. I should have walked away at that moment realizing that this man was selfish and that was just the beginning of his “weird” talk to me. I just want to add, when talking about the Spaths youth, my spath told me that when he was in 8th grade he went door to door telling people he was collecting pop cans for his Boy Scouts annual camping trip. (he was not in the Boy Scouts). All the while, he was collecting them so a friend’s older brother could buy him beer. Again, lying and manipulative to get what he wanted even at that young age. Looking back, all the things he said to me was to see what my reaction would be. Would I flee? Would I listen? Would I accept? I listened and accepted….for 10 years. YES, they do know what they are doing. The “ends always justify the means” in their sick, twisted, reckless and careless mind!

Schnoodle, I so very much hear what you are saying!!! My ex would say the wierdest things, but I very often laughed it off and excused it!! the point is that we stayed…. you for 10 years me for 20+….WHY??? I believe that is the bigger question!!! I let my ex get away with behaviour that I would never excuse from anyone else!!! YES I do believe they know exactly what they are doing…. WE are the ones who have life lessons to learn about ourselves….and how to protect ourseves in the future….

They know exactly what they are doing, in the texting words of the spath to one of his escorts : “The mother-in-law hjas(sic) been in hospital. As I have often said, her kicking the bucket will affect “both” my lives I ways that I cannot fully imagine. Fortunatly(sic), it does not look like that day has come yet. Whew!”.

I still don’t believe he considered himself a spath; rather just a good con man.

For me it was a 33 year marriage and knew him for 47, however there were years in there we weren’t in touch.

Charming, I love that world. So many in the real world, as well as the sub world, considered him charming. I got a puppy from a reputable breeder and the spath offered to fly out and pick the dog up, so “I wouldn’t have to leave my mother”;(weekend overnighter, negligible chance of being found out, and he found an escort party to go to while he was there). Anyway, when I called the breeder to let her know how the puppy was settling in, her first words weren’t about how the dog was, rather ” your husband is so charming”.

As my son said to an attorney, “he was never charming around us”.

Imara, I almost want to right a book about my 10 years and all the things he said that made me scratch my head. I should have listened to my internal self that said “this dude ain’t right”!!! But I loved him to no end, faults and all. After being on LF for so many years, I now understand that it wasn’t him. It was me. I was an easy target. Not that I’m messed up, I just score very high on empathy and love and he used that to his advantage. I have learned to not be so forth coming about myself. But let me be clear….HE IS A SPATH. No doubt about it. I was just his victim of choice. I am just now starting back into the dating scene with trepidation. But I believe in love, but it also must be reciprocated with no strings attached like it is with a Spath relationship.

YES…I have said many times that I am a poster child for the women Sandra Brown writes of…Excess empathy and resourcefulness…I am learning too that I need to trust gaurdedly, and NOT to give control and power of my life over to anyone…

I hear what you’re saying about the charm- my ex was incredibly charming, and pursued me with great passion. Meanwhile, my inner instincts was telling me there was something wrong. But, his charm was so extreme, I overruled my own feelings and let him win me over. Biggest mistake of my life.

Lucky for me, it only lasted about 1.5 years. During the last few months, I became increasingly depressed and frustrated, and didn’t know why- I thought it was something wrong with me. It’s only now that I realize it was because I knew something was terribly wrong, and I was not listening to myself. I think that is one of the greatest dangers of being involved with an spath- they can get you to stop being true to yourself, watch out for your own interests and well-being, and make you go against what is best for you. Even worse, they’ll make it seem that any discomfort or doubt is something wrong with you, not with them or their actions.

I began listening to that voice as soon as we entered the breakup talk- he was parroting back to me the reasons I had given for wanting to end things, and had none of his own. I knew then he was trying to deceive me and paint himself as innocent of any wrongdoing. I rejected his offers of “friendship” immediately and several times since. I have gone no-contact from that day on, although he has tried to get me to talk a few times. I know he would just use it to try to hurt me again- he did that to his previous ex.

Again, listening to ourselves and our instincts is so important when it comes to spaths. I will never allow another person to make me doubt that inner voice, to take that power from me. I will never fail myself again- a truly valuable lesson learned. In a way, I got away lucky. I’m the only ex he hasn’t tried to blackmail. But then, I’ve closed off all avenues of communication to him.

For those who would be interested in learning more about what progprof is saying above regarding trusting one’s instincts and the importance of learning this lesson after your entanglement with a spath, I strongly recommend a book called ‘The Gift of Fear’ by Gavin de Becker. There were so many ah ha moments for me as I read it I had to read it a second time to make sure I didn’t miss anything.

I also read that book, The Gift of Fear. Awesome read and very helpful for someone like me who USED TO BE naive.

Hello everyone.I’m new here today. I’m sorry to everyone who has been impacted by a sociopath. I have been also and it continues every day. Its my 16 year old daughter. I’ll try to explain our story as best as I can without taking too long. I’ve a;ways known my daughter was different.Even when she was very young. She played by herself a lot. She was ALWAYS talking to herself in her room. She has always been very bright. She has never had any close friends. And when she would try to make a friend it never lasted long. The tiniest things would make her mad and she would be really mean to them. Many have become her enemies. For the past three years she is always saying how beautiful, perfect and flawless she is. It drives everyone nuts!! BTW she does happen to be very beautiful,but I’ve tried to explain to her a million times that its rude to act that way. She doesn’t care.She has one boyfriend after the next. Boys she is not even attracted to but have money to buy her all the things she wants. She has always been very spoiled. I know that was my fault. She never stays with these boys very long. As soon as she is tired of them she will look for any excuse to get rid of them. Like…you didnt call me when you said you would,and I cant be with someone I can’t trust. Boys so love her though. Even after she breaks their hearts they eventually forgive her and remain friends. IDK why except that she is very charming and smart and pretty and they just like being around her. But girls for the most part don’t like her’ She has a lot of enemies. It makes me feel sad for her. But she does have lots of friends for boys. She tld me about three years ago that she doesn’t love me or her dad or her brother. I didn’t believe it so it didn’t bother me and I never said anything back to her. She can be very hatful and mean and say nasty things when she doen’t get what she wants. She is violent she throws and breaks things when she gets mad.Anyways a couple of weeks ago I had to tranfer her out of school to another scool because of some issues with girls trying to start fights with her. She has always hated school but has been going to the same one her whole life. She refused to even go.I thought things would be better for her at a new school where no one knew her. NOPE!!!! SO I knew there was a problem with her and looked up personality disorders. Found out she was a sociopath. Thats why I’m here. I also want to say one other thing.Please don’t think I’m crazy or lying. My daughter is a sensitive. Her behavior intensified and became out of control at the age of 13 when she started seeing the ghost of a boy her age on a daily basis. This is not a lie because I saw him too but the in the way she did. I would see shadows and a couple of times a mist.But she saw him solid. I have not seen anything for well over a year now. The reason I am telling you about her being a sensitive/empath is because the behaviors of a sociopath combined with high sensitivity are an incredibly crazy and confusing condition. Can anybody give me any advice? I love her very much


I have a close friend who’s children were seeing shadow people (off and on) in their house, sensing them to be unwelcome spirits. My friend’s father, who is a Christian, came and blessed their house, praying over the house and the grounds – the shadow people are gone. It was an interesting experience for the whole family.

I cant make her go to therapy.I can’t make her do anything if she doesnt want it. She went to a drug counselor a couple of years ago because it was court ordered and she charmed the pants of the counselor. The lady said she was very bright and talented. Plus my daughter doesnt think the way she acts is wrong. She puts herself on a pedestal and expects everyone else to do the same. As far as our house blessing our house isnt haunted she was. And I did after a very very long time finally got her to pray and it made the bad energies go away it still traumatized her. She never told anyone she knew the stuff that happened to her bc I told her not to. A lot of people dont believe in what your saying and think your crazy. But I did tell my son, their dad and my mother-n-law. I wasn’t so much wanting to write on here anything about ghosts but only that she was an empath. I have one more question to anyone willing to give me their opinion. This may sound stupid to you, and I can kind of understand why but has anybody ever thought that sociopaths may have a connection to Satan? No bad awnsers here feel free to give your honest opinion. And by the way the ghost boys name was Jay

Welcome Suzanna,
Since you’re not able to make your daughter go to therapy(it has been my experience that even if they go,it’s just a game they play until they get tired,and then they quit-a waste of time & money),perhaps you could find a therapist that helps parents deal with children with personality disorders.You can not deal with this on your own!

I’m glad your house isn’t haunted.Do not feel that your questions sound stupid or crazy.Until recently I did not even discuss what I know about evil spirits here at Lovefraud,because I know some people are not spiritual minded and prefer to accept other concepts to explain evil.

It sounds like your daughter may have invited these spirits as companions.Jay is her personal companion.Playing with a Ouija board,watching demonistic/horror movies,seances,astrology,fortune-telling and taking street drugs are all practices that encourage visits from these spirits.

Hi Suzanna,

You use the magic word “Charming”, before other adjectives to describe your daughter. Yet you describe her behavior around her family as anything but charming. How do you know that she is charming; is it by the way others describe her to you? Charm is one of the most effective tools that an spath uses in many ways. First, they use charm to ‘reel in’ would be targets, my spath had 2 sub world communities, made up of very jaded and street wise people, convinced that he was so charming, they revealed personal facts to him that they protected from others. Second, they use the charm factor to gas light you. You see the way they act at home, yet you hear what others say about them and the way they act around others and they 2 versions do not match. You start to question yourself. Your confusion is their friend. Your using the word charming when you also use the words mean and nasty, is a point for her.

You describe your daughter as smart. Smart is good, but to a spath intelligence is a weapon. Just like in a class where smart people are thinking what is the next step, in the outside world, they are always planning what is coming, what to do if they are called out.

You say that you daughter has no girl friends, but plenty of boy friends, even ex daters want a friendship with her. I will address that first by quoting a “lady” that was in love with my spath: “My girls and my friends dont understand him the way I do”. Others all told her to leave him, she didn’t listen. Many times people of the same sex can have a gut reaction that something is just not right. The boys don’t see the red flags, they just see pretty.

Could it be that she doesn’t like school because she senses that the teachers see ‘something’ about her? Me, I just shrugged off that my spath didn’t have friends, as their being jealous of his intelligence.

You also say that your daughter has a temper. An spath with a temper is an even more dangerous combination. My spath went from throwing my son’s (he was merely a sperm doner, never a father) toys against walls, to threatening to kidnap the child, to setting fire to a couch.

I don’t like that you are willing to take some of the blame, by saying you spoiled her. I was very spoiled by my parents and I became a doormat. Your giving her things, does not explain or excuse the behavior of a 16 year old, a 3 year old maybe, but not a 16-ager. By blaming yourself, you are enforcing her mind set. If she ever gets into trouble she will blame you for spoiling her and not put any of the blame on herself.

A don’t know that your daughter would be classified as a sociopath at age 16. When asking about my spath, I have been told by several psychologists that they would not make any formal diagnosis on any patient until the mid to late 20’s.

I applaud you for asking questions. I didn’t even know the term sociopath in the 70’s, nor did I know anyone to ask. I just knew that something was just ‘not right’ and that I had to be careful, so careful that I was afraid to get divorced.

I would take her to a therapist for an in depth evaluation. If you don’t know one, ask your doctor for recommendations after explaining why. If that doesn’t help, contact the mental health department in your hospital or the mental hotline in your phone book for guidance. Therapy can be a life saver.

Hugs to you

Suzanna, I just read your comment that your daughter charmed her drug counselor. My spath went to a psycho analyst not on own volition, rather because this doctor had one of the spath’s ‘girlies’ as a patient and when this ‘lady’ died, the therapist thought the spath needed bereavement help. This psycho analyst is in practice over 30 years and attached to a major university. He saw her religiously for 14 months and she never saw through him and his lies. She didn’t know that he was unemployed and was paying her with stolen money, she didn’t know that 2 days after his ‘lady’ died, he was trolling for new ones. On his part, the therapist was just a supply source of praise.

You say you can’t make your daughter get help. You Must. Make an appointment for yourself and explain to the therapist what you need. If you have to visit several therapists until you find you believe will be a good fit, so be it; don’t give up. Therapy takes time, so does finding the right therapist.

A good counselor that really wants to help, will have a “bag of tricks” for you to use to get your daughter to come; perhaps something thing as simple as telling your daughter that you are in therapy for something that has nothing to do with her and ‘your’ doctor wants to see her for her take on it.


I have a para-legal who says that sociopaths are the devil incarnate.

Thanks Lost for your comments. I will consider therapy more seriously. My doughter really didn’t mind going but was always dshonest about herself to this woman. My daughter loves attention and loves when someone listens to her her but never wants to listen to anyone else. I guess it makes her think she is special which she so desperatly seems to need. Admiration, compliments and so on. She is very narcissistic and vain. She lies a lot. Not quite as much as she use to but still lies, and usually about really stupid things. They say from the bit of reading I’ve been doing these last two weeks that sociopaths have no emotions. Yea I have noticed that the only emotion she shows is anger. She does cry a lot. But then again I finally notice its not because she is sad but because she is mad or frustrated. She uses boys for what she can get out of them. Money, clothes, dinners, movies,amusement parks. And when she dumps them and they are upset or even cry she totally doesnt care. I have even seen her with some laugh at them like its amusing to her that they can fall so hard and fast for her. It makes her feel powerful. Its very sad. I tried to interfere with a relationship of hers a year ago because I came to really care for this particular boy. But my interference made it worse. I didnt understand what the problem was as I do now. Now I wont interfere, the boys don’t really want to hear what I’m saying anyways, they only listen to her.

Almost forgot. My daughter never had a problem with teachers. They all seemed to like her. But administration didnt seem to care much for her but that never bothered her. She only had/has problems with girls at school. She misses a lot of school always has. But has never been one to really cause any serious problems. Also sorry for my spelling errors, need to proofread i guess

lost everything,
You bring up an interesting thought~~~and at the same time a very chilling thought~~~that of an incarnate Devil! I’ve mentioned before how I felt that looking into my husband’s eyes(that lacked empathy) was like looking into the Devil’s eyes!Well,with all his demons(former angels)they can be everywhere at once!

lost everything,
Although I’ve never heard of a teenager diagnosed as a sociopath either,suzanna must feel her daughter shows enough of the signs to be ‘well on her way’.When it comes to the charm that a sociopath displays,it is used to manipulate.They ENJOY manipulating and FOOLING therapists.If suzanna’s daughter wasn’t already showing signs of using charm in this way,I’d encourage therapy too.

Hi Blossom,

Don’t I know that spaths use charm as a weapon. While he never used showed me any charm, rather blackmail and bullying to get me to marry him; it was the 70s. My spath not only charmed the therapist, he ‘charmed’ my mother’s stock broker into giving him control over my mother’s 2 million account; which resulted in almost a half million dollar legal bill and a 6 1/2 day trial. He also charmed one of his escorts who paid the ultimate price. I did not know of his double life until he died and we didn’t have a marriage in any sense of the word, no sex no nothing, since 1986. With an abuser and not having enough knowledge, I didn’t dare get a divorce.

I think it’s smart and observant that Suzanna knows something just isn’t right. She has got to get to a therapist, if not for her daughter, than for herself in order to be able to cope.

My spath’s mother, to this day, refuses to accept what he did. When shown the evidence, she just says ‘that doesn’t sound like my (insert name)’. No, they were never close nor did she pamper him. She didn’t even want his body.

lost everything,
Sounds like there were some similarities(as there are with all these relationships)with my marriage.

The intimacy in our relationship was over 5 yrs in to our marriage.That’s when I insisted on a tubal so that there wouldn’t be any more pregnancies!I had already had 3 girls.And nearly died with the last one!But spath didn’t want either of us to get surgery as birth control.Oh,he “acted” as if he was concerned and was going along with it.When the time came for his vasectomy,he conveniently let the appt slide by,thinking I’d forget….not me!I insisted on the tubal then.On the day of the surgery,spath balked.I decided I had no choice but to throw a HISSY FIT!That takes alot out of a quiet person,but I did the best I could,and it worked!He drove me (guess he wanted me to shut up! 🙂 ) the 50 miles to the hospital! He sure wasn’t charming anymore….guess it blew away with the wind!

my ex always told me he was “different” from anyone else, he also said some people thought he might be bi-polar…… They know they are different and they think they are Superior to everyone else, In the end (of our lives) they will Know The Truth about themselves I have Faith in that!!

My ex is probably bi-polar too. Funny how they smirk and think they’re superior. Mine kept getting in trouble at work till he got demoted, and I’m his third ex-wife, not counting his ex-girlfriends. Yep, that’s sure superior. I’m praying karma bites his big butt.

Don’t know if this is the right thread to post this question on….
I’m curious to hear if any one has experience of the disordered people in their lives being able to play a musical instrument?
In my personal experience my ex could not keep a simple beat rhythm if his life depended on it… My son tried on many occasions to learn the guitar but could never follow through…I would love some insight into this…. Is not being able to just enjoy music for music’s sake a red flag??

My spath was very very proficient at both the piano and guitar. I use the word proficient because he could because he was technically perfect. When learning a new song, if he made a mistake, like wrong tempo, he would fly into a rage. I have been told by teachers that music is very mathematical; and he was brilliant in math. Also, being able to read written music is akin to a foreign language and he was fluent in 4. So for him, rote music was very easy. There was no heart, soul, or spontaneity in his music, nothing individual. Just something to impress others, no self enjoyment.

The same was true with his double life. His first 30 or so escort appointments, were nothing more to him than classes. In his emails he refers to these ‘ladies’ as teachers. With the instruction of these escorts, he became very proficient in oral sex.; so much so that he developed an on line reputation for his ‘oral skills’. As one psychologist said to me; for a sociopath, oral sex is perfect, the mechanics can be easily learned and more important, no facial interaction.

Music, computers, sex, forgery, the art of conning people, no difference; just skills to be mastered.

Thanks Lost… I guess that makes sense…these disordered people belong to a different species!!!

I think that Sociopaths also fit into the Narcissist Personality Disorder area. My father and all of his brothers are/were musically talented. My sisters and I are also and one of my sister’s I believe is Narcissistic for sure. I love to sing, but I hate to perform on stage. My dad had a band for years and two of us sang in his band for many years. My father and sister LOVED the audience. They loved the praise. I only loved to sing harmony and back up and I preferred to just sit around with the family sing together at home rather than seeking attention for it. I will say that just about every drummer we had seemed to have very serious problems. One was so messed up, he committed suicide. I would be willing to bet that there is a narcissistic component to some musicians who also end up being sociopaths.

There was a very good article here yesterday. Donna posted something a sociopath had sent to her declaring that he, and his fellow, sociopaths are “gifted.” I think when they have a true talent to go along with that big ego, a big sociopath is probably going to come forward with just one more “gift” for the rest of the world!

Imara and Lost Everything,

My former spath was good at what he set out to do – REALLY Good! He got a harmonica for Christmas one year from his mother and within a day or 2 he could actually play recognizable tunes quite well. He saw the attention it drew and took it on the next camping trip and really showed it off. Once the newness wore off, we never heard the harmonica again. So – I agree that he never really played for the enjoyment of music. He played for the response he got from his listeners. The wow factor, the ego boost. The Oh you’re good! He also wouldn’t really practice in front of people until it was pretty good. He had a very big sense of his image being perfect and looking good (yes, impressing others). I always thought his parents raised him to be perfect and mostly if he couldn’t be perfect at something – He wouldn’t touch it. He hated not knowing, or being in the know about anything.

Lack of follow through, oh ya. That was how school was for him. I can’t tell you the number of dropped classes. Finals not taken. Books bought and never used.

Skills to be mastered is right and if the skills aren’t up to snuff, you lie about what they are or you bullshit about what they are going to be.

Hi honest,

My spath got to the point where not only I but others in the real world had to be mastered as well. If he ‘studied’ a person, he could make an educated guess at their behavior and reactions. With me, well he knew me for more than 4 decades. Others he had to establish a ‘relationship’ before mastering them. He never did anything without knowing the outcome first.

When he embarked in his double life as well as his life of crime, the one important thing to him was to cover his tracks, that he could control to a great extent. He actually posted about how to avoid getting caught. He also had to make sure that no one ever had reason to contact my mom’s stock broker as well as making sure the broker never called her. Unknown to me, he became a master forger and just as evil with ‘forging’ phone calls, skills that served him well. The phone calls, I could do nothing about, but during the legal proceeding against the brokerage, I had to get a specialized hand writing expert, one that was knowledgeable in writing as well as computer produced forgery.

For him, life wasn’t a gift to be lived but something for him to be master of. He wrote, years later, that in 2002 my mom totally losing her sight was the best thing that happened to him. When my mom’s health took a severe turn for the worse in 2008, he texted that if she died, it would be the worst thing for both his real life and his double life. He had no control of her health and if she died he knew that I would not only discover his crimes but how he spent the money, all of it in the sex world (internet escorting a world of total silence).

Still in the dark about his crimes, double life, in June/July, 2008 I had enough, the divorced I wanted since 1986 was going to happen. I started researching on the internet. Not being computer savvy, I had no idea that he was monitoring what I was doing. I didn’t find that out till way after his death via an IT expert. Looking back, it was just about the same time that his abuse turned into silence. He knew he had lost control over me.

He was having medical issues that he never spoke to me about. I was to find out shortly after his death that told someone that he was blacking out for up to 10 minutes at a time and that person told him to see a doctor, he didn’t. His texts indicate that he even blacked out in an escort’s apartment. One night in mid October he walked into the kitchen while I was taking my mother’s BP, white as a sheet. I asked him if I could take his, he allowed me; it was 190/160. I offered to call an ambulance, he said no; I then offered to drive him to a 24 hours ‘doc in a box’, again no; finally I asked if I could make a doctor’s appointment for him, to that he said yes. In the morning I phoned the office and they gave me an appointment for the following AM; I then phoned the spath’s cell and let him know. That same afternoon, I get a call from the doctor’s office letting me know that the spath called to cancel his appointment. When he came ‘home’, I asked him why he cancelled the appointment, he never answered, just walked down the basement and that was that. He knew he was ill, he didn’t seek help on his own; I offered to get him medical treatment, he declined; I could not force a 55 year old to go to the doctor, just like a hospital can not stop a person from discharging themselves.

He knew could not control people or their behavior from a sick bed, he chose to risk his life rather than take the chance of having his behavior exposed. He lost. Death mastered him.

I think they know “what” and “who” they really are. But, they may not recognize that they are sociopaths. They think everyone is like them. My spath once told me that no one cared about anyone else…this was while I was caring about HIM. I think even when we are caught up in their nightmare and don’t know yet what is happening, all of our people pleasing doesn’t even come across to a spath as authentic. I think they think we are only “acting” as they do…to get something we want from them. They think everyone thinks like them!

When this subject was previously discussed, I mentioned that on the dating site where I first came across a profile of the x-spath because of that site’s “matching” algorithm, in addition to nearly 1000 matching questions, also took many of the site’s tests.

One was the “Dating Persona Test” and his result was Manchild:

“Hopeful. Awkward. Soft-headed. Fire intrigues you. You are The Manchild.

Okay, Manchildren have some good qualities. They can be unpredictable, brash, magnetic—and therefore highly charismatic. Particularly, you’re passionate and are often a hell of a lot of fun.

But we’d like you to consider not using our site. You can be unthinking and hurtful, and we think you LIKE seeing bad things happen.

You’ve had a moderate number of relationships, but broken a disproportionate number of hearts. In total, you mean well, but don’t really have it together.

It’s up to you, of course, whether to continue dating. There are plenty out there who do deserve you. But you’ve heard our advice.”

My guess is that in his juvenile, sociopathic way of thinking, he enjoys being a Manchild.

However, his very own words ironically underscore that he really does not get it.

“I am looking for somebody that is good for me. Narcissists need not apply.”

At the very time using photos in which he appears 10 years younger than actual.

I call mine a foster monkey! Do they have that category? Interesting test scale for a dating site. I guess they let people know sort of what they are getting into. Since I have been reading the article here, reading books, sharing and reading what other people share, I am seeing a difference in myself. Thank you to all.

That test has 16 scores. The female version of Manchild is Wild Irish Rose. Several times I took that test trying to score Manchild and I could not, so it must have a reasonable algorithm.

I am the Lover Boy.

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