By | September 10, 2011 160 Comments

Donna Andersen on Websleuths Radio is an online forum for people interested in true crime stories. Websleuths Radio is an affiliated Internet talk show, and tomorrow night I’ll be explaining the truth about sociopaths. The show starts at 8 p.m. Eastern time, Sunday, September 11, 2011. Just go to the link below and you’ll be able to listen in—you don’t have to click anything.Afterwards, the show will be available for download—just click on the same link.

Websleuths radio show featuring Donna Andersen

UPDATE: The show is posted on the above link. There are some technical difficulties in the beginning, but then it gets underway.

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cool, i’ll be tuning in.


That was great information to get out there, Donna! I listened to the whole radio show and thought it was fantastic. Thank you for everything you are doing.


I just listened to the whole show too. You presented yourself so well. You got a lot of information out there in a short amount of time. Thanks for your hard work.


In response to listening to your interview Donna. The ‘fake boy’ was almost unerringly sweet to me. the spath created other characters who came into the picture who became threatening in a number of ways, over time. I had no bonds to them, i didn’t care for them. so when i started to see the early glimpses of anger from those ‘characters’ i began to protect myself and pull away from them. At the very end when the fake boy was fake dead, I had no reason to stay in contact. I think the spath didn’t understand this – i don’t think she understood that i was only attached to ‘him’ and not the others, as she does not understand what feelings are really.

on power and control and bonding:

the spath’s fake boy was almost unerringly sweet to me for most of my time connected to him. the trauma bond was created in three ways:

1) through fake illnesses and suicidal ideation/ attempts (and she thought the fake death was the crowning glory of this manipulation or she wouldn’t have contacted me as him on resurrection day. it wasn’t. I was done.

2) Through creating other characters who were vaguely threatening to our relationship; and then later on 2 occasions before the fake death were directly threatening (and after the resurrection (when i went nc) they were constantly and consistently threatening to me.

3) Through manipulating other real people into believing they were in competition with me, and trying to make me believe that they were stalking the fake boy….

lying vile pile of crap that she is.


Donna, Very good interview!


your interview was AMAZING!
To quote Superkid: you ROCK!
You’ve got every aspect of the spath covered.
Your interviewer was also extremely tuned in to the subject.

Thank you so much for doing what you do.


Donna: I listened through the entire interview.
Great interview.


I happened upon this link which attempts to describe the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath.
As interesting as the article is, I thought the comments were so much more interesting. Particularly some of the comments by psychopaths. The comments are listed in order of the newest on top, so you have to start at the bottom.



I think that’s an interesting link. It amazes me that there is so much material out there on this topic.

It would be interesting to see how much material is on the web per human in the US population.

# of words about socipathy/330 million people
# of words about Dallas Cowboys/330 million people
# of words about Warren Buffet per 330 million people

it sure seems like a lot on SPATHS.

I just feel so kicked in the stomach by my spath and the thing is, he seems so fucking clueless about how much he hurt me.
And other things were so intentional that he did.

I am so done feeling like this, like I was hurt, victimized, abused. I wish I could make it go away.



Yes, the true spaths are the commenters who are “above” average in intelligence, of course.

Interesting blog talk for sure.




Google has some of that data on Google Trends:

You type in the word or words that interest you and you get some kind of metadata on how often it’s been searched.

I haven’t really looked into it too much, there are some parameters you can tweek.

There is also one called Google Ngram which tracks the number of times the word is found in all the books in history – that’s the goal anyway.

Looks like psychopath wins over sociopath


There are some wonderful comments there, but one of my favourites was an expression in comment #78: “sure some people have a smaller give-a-crap gland in their brain”


LOL! that refers to the noticably smaller amygdala in the spath brain. That’s why they feel no fear.

The stories of the spath victims are similar to what we’ve heard here. It really helps to understand the similarities when you read the details of so many similar stories. Same with the spaths. Some care that they are spaths – sort of, and some don’t. It’s so hard to fathom being that way.

Does any one watch “Family Guy”? I actually hate the show, but I’ve seen it a few times. The infant character, I think his name is Stewie Griffin, is THE PERFECT SOCIOPATH. He is an infant with a genius IQ so he talks – with a pompous tone. He also speaks intelligently. Way beyond more intelligent than his parents or siblings. But in the end he needs his mother to feed him his bottle and change his diaper. He abuses her terribly until she does. LOL!! I never understood that character until now. Makes me wish I had a tv.


sky – probably lots of him on youtube.

Here is the character biography.
He’s definitely a spath.
Stewie is well-spoken, with an advanced vocabulary, an upper-class British accent and an ambiguous sexual orientation. He refers to Peter often as ‘The Fat man’. Seth MacFarlane has described him as “an evil Rex Harrison”. Stewie is constantly plotting ways to kill his mother, Lois, apparently holding a grudge against her because of his nine-month stay in her “ovarian Bastille.” He shares his secrets with his confidant (who is also his teddy bear) Rupert. Stewie often speaks from the standpoint of a much older person, saying such things as “What is it that you children are into nowadays?” Stewie creates an alter ego, Karina Smirnoff, to get on the American version of Jolly Farm Revue in “Go, Stewie, Go!”.

On the show, Stewie engages in extreme violent or criminal acts, including robbery, carjacking, loan sharking, forgery, and killing off many minor characters. The characters he kills off are for reasons such as anger, jealousy, and grudges he holds. Stewie’s mastery of physics, mechanical engineering, and firearms are at a level of science fiction. He has constructed advanced fighter-jets, a mind control device, a weather control device, robots, a time machine, a shrinking pod, a teleportation device, and more. Stewie employs these to deal with the stresses of infant life (such as teething pain, and his hatred of broccoli) or to kill his mother. Stewie also shows infant-like tendencies such as pretending his tryke is an actual vehicle.


i have seen the show a couple of times and HATED that character.

Ex Umbris

Gah! Husband loves Stewie. XD I love Brian and Lois.


Ex Umbris – well, of course he does.

Ex Umbris

“Family Guy is banned in Taiwan, China, South Africa, Iran, India, Philippines, Egypt, Malaysia, South Korea, and Vietnam.”

What does that say about me that I love watching a show that’s been banned in more than ten countries. XD


Ex Umbris,
what about “the Colbert Report” and Jon Stewart’s show?
Does your husband watch those? I’m curious what he thinks.

What other tv does he watch?

Edit: it says you’re an american and have grown numb to offensive tv.
most american tv should be banned. even gorillas shouldn’t be allowed to watch it.

Ex Umbris

He watches Jon Stewart sometimes.

We used to watch Bones all the time, but that kind of faded out. We just recently started watching Suits. Love that show! I haven’t seen the last few episodes, so don’t tell me! 😀 Husband loves Harvey Specter, of course, because he acts just like him. I love Mike Ross because he’s a sweetie 🙂 and Donna the secretary. We watched White Collar for the first few seasons. Neil’s adorable. We watch Law and Order SVU alot. He has a crush on Det. Benson, and I have a crush on Det. Stabler, haha. We watched House for the first few seasons, until Cameron and Chase left the team. Husband used to watch Burn Notice all the time, but I never really got into it. I did like Fiona though. He did too. He had a mancrush on Dexter for the longest time until everyone started saying Dexter was an actual psychopath. Then he threw a fit about it and would always point out why Dexter wasn’t a real psychopath. He always watches American Dad, and Roger the alien is his favorite or course. I don’t like that show that much. I’m surprised I even like Family Guy. He also watches Robot Chicken and King of the Hill. I’ll watch King of the Hill sometimes, but I can’t get into Robot Chicken. We both like That 70’s Show to.

I’m making it sound like all we do is watch TV, haha! Except for Family Guy which we watch regularly, we don’t watch that much tv. We’ll be on one show for awhile, and then move onto to something else once that gets old.

Ex Umbris

And Arrested Development. I forgot about that one. He watches that one alot to. I don’t.


he liked dexter…..

and he is right, the character isn’t a real spath. close, but no cigar.

Ex Umbris

He actually got in an argument with one of his colleagues about it and said Dexter fit the diagnosis for another disorder. I can’t remember which though. It started with an S.


thank you for answering that. It’s very interesting.
Arrested development is definetly about spaths. Just the title tells us that.
Dexter, too.
House, one of my very favorites, has many spath tendencies. I don’t want to call him a spath, but maybe that’s because he’s so charming and I really, really liked him. 😛

My spath and I used to watch Married with Children. All spaths, of course, but I didn’t know that then.

Interesting how spaths like to watch others like themselves on TV. My spath professed to liking nature shows and science shows. You know, the educational stuff, but he would always fall asleep during it. a year after I left him, he had the audacity to use my blockbuster video card and not return the films in time. I asked the clerk what he had rented and it was all horror films with the most grotesque violence. This was a side of himself he kept hidden.


I haven’t watched the show. but the emotionless aspect of him would indicate that. My spath never seemed emotionless. He was quite animated. Very sweet, very angry, very likeable, very lovable. Charming. Larger than life. Lots and lots of emotion. Facade.

Ex Umbris

I’ve never watched Married with Children, but I’ve seen Modern Family a few times. The guy who plays Al Bundy is in it, and he’s hilarious. 😀

Husband watches true crime on Investigation Discovery. And we watch MythBusters sometimes.

But he does like his horror movies! He doesn’t really care about gore though. I’m just going to steal these off his facebook, but some of his favorites are American Psycho, A Clockwork Orange, Silence of the Lambs, Red Dragon, Pulp Fiction, The Godfather Trilogy, In Bruges, and The Gladiator. Not all of them are horror movies, but they’re all pretty gruesome. He also has some like Mallrats, The Dark Knight (guess his favorite character :P), Inception, and The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus.

You wouldn’t believe, but he’s actually a sucker for sad movies. In the Gladiator and In Bruges, we were both crying like babies. And he cried at the end of the Godfather and in Inception, but I’m not sure why.

And yes, I think it was schizoid. I looked up the diagnostic criteria, and it seems about right.


Ex Umbris,
it’s possible that your husband is borderline rather than psychopathic.
The fact that he told you what he is, means he doesn’t wear his mask all the time and doesn’t want to.
The fact that he cries/gets emotional also doesn’t fit the psychopathic profile.

The psychopath wears his mask like it was surgically attached to his face. It doesn’t come off no matter what because what is underneath is so horrific, that he knows you would run if you saw it. There is a lot of hidden shame about their ugliness so they wouldn’t want to expose themselves. Other PD’s are less attached to their facades. Narcissists have facades but they believe the facade is real, because they are so shallow and don’t understand that other people have more depth than they do. Some antisocials don’t even bother trying to fit in to society and just throw their mask away except when doing a con.

A borderline, according to what I’ve read, behaves just like a psychopath but their “internal state” is different. Inside, they feel emotions – and some of those emotions “color” their world view. So for example, if they are feeling paranoid, they can believe that you are out to get them, even though 2 minutes ago, they objectively decided that you were not.


Dear sky (and ox),
I have a question I’m hoping you can help me with. I’m asking you guys specifically because you guys seem to have come to terms with your parents and toxic childhoods. I must start this process as part of my healing and future happiness.
My mom is not a sociopath as she has the capacity for love.. Although this love is controlling, manipulative, and conditional. I need to find some reading resources to start the process. She definitely has a PD but I don’t really know what that PD is. When was very young one of her therapists actually told me this. In retrospect I find in unprofessional of the therapist.
Regardless I must understand before I start establishing boundaries with her. I realize this might sound backwards but I need the knowledge BEFORE the battle… and a battle it will sadly be. I have tried to set boundaries but they are met with extreme drama and craziness. Frankly I emotionally cannot handle that drama right now. An example of this and what will surely come of this is what happened over Easter. I decided I wanted to take jr to church for Easter. She was invited but did not want to come and was furious demanding to see jr. I stuck to my guns and we did our thing. This resulted in her threatening legal action against me to be able to see jr. It is important to mention she saw jr just 3 days prior and sees him at leaste 2 days out of every week. At the time jr. Was younger and I was going through Bankrupcy and court battles with spath… I didn’t need more shit and drama. There are countless other examples but I’ll stick with that as a premis. I am to weak to deal with additional drama right now so yes I enable her. It’s easier now. This however needs to change. Right now I need to focus on jr and finding a job… I can’t deal with unnecessary stress until I’m more grounded both financially and emotionally.
Could you recommend anything? A place to begin? I did buy the betrayal bond and I intend on reading it. But I must know what exactly I’m dealing with…

Ex Umbris

Skylar, yeah, he isn’t borderline. 🙂 He was diagnosed with psychopathy. And he ONLY cries during movies and funerals. He said, under the right circumstances, he’ll mimic other people around him. When we went to his uncle’s funeral a few months ago, during the ceremony and the actual burial he cried a little. But if we went out to be alone, he would suddenly stop crying and look completely fine. Or if we were around his cousin who would tell jokes and stories, I guess as his way of coping, husband would to. But if someone actually came up to him crying and hugged him, he would just look bored. And of course as soon as we left he was fine.

He cried at his aunt’s funeral as well. But as he was crying, he said “huh, strange.” I asked him “what?” And he said “I don’t feel anything.” Even more strange, his other aunt was there (sister of his aunt who had died). He explained to me that she was also a psychopath. But she was in the back the whole time laughing and messing around with the kids or smoking and looking bored. I pointed her out to husband, and he sneered and said she was disrespectful.

If someone comes up to him and tells him a horrible story without getting emotional or if he hears about some tragedy on the news, he won’t even seem fazed. He’ll even make mean jokes about if he won’t get in trouble for doing so. Even if a person comes up to him bawling and tells him someone close to him died, he won’t care. Everyone thinks he’s in shock, but I can tell he’s just uncomfortable because he doesn’t know what to do. But in the right situation he seems to be able to cry or seem upset just fine.

And husband’s told me all about the mask (I was curious). From the way he talks about it, he made it seem kind of burdensome. Like it’s a chore to have to put on this “act” as he calls it and please the rest of the world. And I notice when he’s talking to me or to some of his friends, he “takes off the mask”, and he talks just like a normal person except about very odd things. They talk about murder and kidnapping like most people would when making plans for the weekend. And when he wants to hurt someone emotionally, I see the “mask come off” and he’s less restrained. He seems proud of what he is. He almost seems relieved when he’s able to use his strange skills to his advantage.


It is important to mention I love my mom.. But as much as I love her I fear her.


I haven’t completely come to terms with the situation with my parents. It’s incredibly difficult when people I saw as perfect, turn out to be monsters. Oxy might say, that this is a symptom of borderline pd, (seeing people as black or white, good or evil) but it’s not that. They PRESENT themselves as saints, specifically so that when their mask slips, you either ignore what you witnessed, or you go into cognitive dissonance.

My spath did the same thing and when I finally allowed myself to KNOW what he was, I could sit back and see the mechanisms he used to do this: Spath began to tell me how he was manipulating his friends, it was a tell. He said it was for their own good, because they had to learn that their view points were wrong and he was going to show them. I listened without reacting but when I began to show discomfort with what he was saying, he quickly moved into a story about a cat he saved. When he saw that I accepted that cat story, he moved back into finishing the story about the manipulation.

My parents are currently trying really hard to show they love me. My dad actually does in his capacity. He has cried a few times when he sees me. But his love is, like you say, a need to dominate. He doesn’t like that I’ve abandoned him and no longer worship him. My mother just needs to play the part, not for my sake, but for his. He is her main supply so she needs to keep up appearances.

The point I’m trying to make is that these toxic people will “present” themselves as something they are not. They do it to confuse you into the FOG. I think freedom comes when you are able to see the “presentation” and acknowledge that no matter how real it seems (and BOY DOES IT SEEM REAL), it is not real. And you know it isn’t real because it is contrary to their evil behavior.

I haven’t read any books that have helped me with dealing with toxic parents. Just learning about psychopaths and their masks, in general, has helped me to “see” my parents for who they are.

As far as your love for your mother, I’ve read that love and fear cannot coexist and I believe that. Consider that what you are feeling might actually be a trauma bond? I’m really not sure how I “feel” about my parents anymore. Pity is one feeling. How am I supposed to feel about people who want to control me so much that they would just as soon see me crushed by a psychopath, rather than free?


An example of her behavior and abuse would be as a teenager if I upset her hygiene products such as toothpaste, deodorant, and feline products would be taken away. This was confusing because the very next day she would buy me an expensive bottle of perfume.. But not return the basics. As a teenager I would not know what to do and take tampons from her bathroom. I was then considered a thief. Eventually I learned to just use tp, or gum, and within a few days the basics world be returned.


Wow!! Holy shit sky… Thanks. Last sentence really hit home!! I actually believe mom enjoys my demise at spaths hands. Not because I’m hurt but because it brings me “closer” to her. Sick!! She likes I am broke (wasn’t always- before spath) because she can tell me I can do or go anywhere in the world… Knowing it’s not possible because I have no money… Hence dangling her money over my head. Wow!


Coping, that’s exactly what I mean.
Giving perfume is her mask. It’s a way to distract you from feeling that she is evil because of her previous behavior.

You can’t feel fear and love at the same time, so she knows you will choose to feel love, since it feels better. Yet she could still control you with fear, since she exerted control over your very body by taking your hygiene products. That’s definitely a trauma bond.

As I stated before, the only thing that has helped me is to understand and really KNOW, the capacity some people have for wearing masks. It’s surreal.


we seem to be posting over each other.

This blog is not updated much anymore, but it is written by a woman who grew up with a malignant narcissist mother.

It is one of the best blogs on the subject, I’ve ever run across. I found it before I found LF. Yet, despite reading almost every single entry, it still took me two years before I could accept what my parents are. I’m not saying that I didn’t know. Intellectually, I knew immediately. But I couldn’t “feel it”. I still excused them as being flawed human beings that could learn to change if I only explained to them the error of their ways. WRONG.

Read that link, it’s an awesome description of what the MN is.


Omg sky- I’m crying now!! I’ve posted before about my anxiety and oddities that come and go. Sky after my last post I just realized I have 10 boxes of tampons, 8 deodorants, 5 tubes of toothpaste and close to 20 toothbrushes in my bathroom. I always buy them. Wtf!!


Thank you sky- I will review link. I’m gonna log out for awhile… Write this stuff down so it doesn’t “disappear in my head” so I can discuss it with my therapist.



Thanks for the Narcissists Blog…


Dear sky- I have reviewed the site and have found some similarities. I must be honest words like “evil” in describing her seem off to me. Perhaps this is denial. She is my mother. Some bloggers wrote some things that hit home and gave me an unsettling feeling in my gut. This is a start. I think this is a subject I can start with… Perhaps here I can start in discovering and accepting the truth. It hurts. Maybe if I read more on the subject things will become clear or other potential possible disorders can be uncovered.
Thank you. This is some very and painful stuff and will take some time to understand an wrap my head around.


Parents are supposed to love us.


Regardless she is toxic… And this makes me so sad. I guess it’s because I know she and I will never have a “normal” relationship.

Hey Skylar,

I am WAY behind on these posts, but I noticed above that you told Ex Umbris her guy might be borderline, partially because he admitted this and is emotional.

I just want to chime in and say NO WAY does him confessing to BPD and crying let him completely off the hook. My ex also told me that he was DIAGNOSED with BPD. He also bragged that he had all the psychologists fooled and that by the end of their “treatment” they all thought he was a god and agreed with him. He said they gave up their psychological principles because he had proven to them that he was right and they all loved him. He was also a HUGE major gigantic cry baby. He used tears and emotion because it WORKED on me and he knew this. He could start crying on the drop of a hat and I’d routinely respond like a programmed Pavlov’s Dog with nurturing and apologies. Let’s not forget his faked suicide where he promptly started announcing that he was “in the hospital, dying” because I had “left him at the altar” and he just couldn’t go on from the pain.

I see “announcing” a disorder as a possible distraction or decoy and crying and emotional displays could be a form of manipulation.

Ex Umbris

You said this:

And husband’s told me all about the mask (I was curious). From the way he talks about it, he made it seem kind of burdensome. Like it’s a chore to have to put on this “act” as he calls it and please the rest of the world. And I notice when he’s talking to me or to some of his friends, he “takes off the mask”, and he talks just like a normal person except about very odd things.

I am very disturbed by this. I feel like you’re talking about my ex. He even told you about the mask? Yeah, so did mine….at length. I asked him all about it. He said he uses a different “facade” with different people. Of course I asked him if he does with me, and he told me I am the only person who gets to see through the mask.

Ex Umbris…the reason I am bringing this up with you is because I am very worried about your situation. VERY. His mask doesn’t come OFF when he talks to you. It just CHANGES to a different mask. I learned this the hard way. I think you are in big time denial. BIG TIME. You are married to a PSYCHOPATH. With my ex, it was actually when things were “going good” between us that I discovered some MAJOR lies that were outright manipulative tactics on his part. He had been conning me since day one, and I do not doubt for a moment that one day, he very possibly may have killed me….while smiling. Maybe he’d just wait until I completely trusted him. Maybe he’d wait until we had children together so that he could do more damage. His whole game was to MAKE ME BELIEVE that I was special, on the “in” with him, immune to the TORTURE that he’d reap on anyone for no reason, but that actually was what made me more FUN for him, because then he got to hurt someone who trusted and loved him. They are SADISTS and I do not think we love them. They MAKE us think we love them, but it is not of our own free will. They enchant us and cast a spell on us, and then we become like robots, full of excuses, but deep down….come on. He is a diagnosed psychopath…..a PSYCHOPATH.

I am glad you’re here, but I’m concerned about your complacency with your situation. You sound a bit like me not too long ago, a human being happily married to a demon in disguise. I really hope he doesn’t hurt you, but I think you should run like hell. That’s my opinion. You’re a grown woman, of course.

Ox Drover

Coping, to answer your question up above about your mother. First off as you DESCRIBE HER, controlling, threatening, etc. to get her way, I would say she is VERY HIGH IN PSYCHOPATHIC TRAITS, even if she does not qualify as a “full fledged” psychopath.

That controlling, manipulating and THREATENING to take legal action of you don’t give in to HER DEMANDS??? You fearing to make waves because you know that if you don’t give in to her she will cause a ruckess? Well, if that ain’t a psychopath what the heck is?

She makes my egg donor look like the tooth fairy!

Setting boundaries for someone who is THAT DEMANDING AND CONTROLLING is gonna be a big battle. She feels ENTITLED to control you. She will be madder’n’a wet hen when you start to set boundaries.

I suggest that you read a book called “If you had controlling parents” and the book “The disease to Please” I cna’t remember the authors right now, but if you order them used off amazon, the titles will get you the right one. Read both of these books because you have “the disease to please” and you got it from your CONTROLLING MOTHER.

I think when you were “infected” by your mother as a child, you have not truly seen her for what she is or just HOW CONTROLLING she is. That “threat” to take legal action, and BTW she has NO STANDING to be taking legal action against you in such a situation. It is simply a threat. Another thing to “scare you” into doing what she wants.

I too “loved” my mother (egg donor), but my I realized that people who LOVE ME do NOT TREAT ME LIKE SHE TREATED ME. People who truly love you do not try to CONTROL you with THREATS. I am NC with my egg donor the same way I was NC with my sperm donor for 40+ years untiil he died finally. I have no desire to have any contact with my egg donor either. I have to occasionally have e mail contact with her for business (we are both trustees on the farm property) but other than that, I do not want interaction with her at all.

I also find that I no longer have any “affection” for her and I NO longer DESIRE AFFECTION FROM her. I’ve reached that point most of the time of the “nirvana of indifference.”


I got there with my father/sperm donor as well. I know what you mean. I’ve been NC for 2 years and I’ll never be able to speak to him again. I just cannot. Will not. The “nirvana of indifference” took a long time for me, but I know exactly what you’re describing. It’s after you try all you can do, after all the guilt just builds up like a flood against a dam, and then you break and cannot take it anymore. Suddenly you realize that genetics is not enough to make up for it. WHO CARES if I have his DNA. When I was a teenager stuck living with him, I actually came to the conclusion that the only way I could ever escape this man would be if he died. The daily torture literally made me want to kill him, as though he were a prison guard poking sticks at me through my cell bars all the time. The day I decided I would never speak to him again, I cried as though I had just attended his funeral, because I knew I had made my decision forever. I “killed” my father and stopped feeling guilty or like an ungrateful daughter.

I love this quote:

Blood is thicker than water, but love is thicker than blood.

I don’t remember where it’s from, but very poignant for these types of situations. Sometimes we find our true family outside of our gene pool. 🙂

Ox Drover

Panther, my gene pool needs some cholorine in it badly! LOL There are very few in my “family” that share ANY of my DNA. As much as I would love to have grandchildren, I’m glad that neither of my biological sons have any children.

I also do not feel guilty about my DNA donors, though for some time I did about my egg donor. I no longer have that problem though, as I realize now that we never had a relationship that was what I wanted, what I needed, or what I was entitled to, either as a child or as an adult.

I’m glad that you have made peace with yours, Panther, and I hope that coping can as well.

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