By | May 3, 2010 165 Comments

Founder of Legionaries of Christ sounds like a sociopath

Pope Benedict XVI appointed a special envoy to run the Legionaries of Christ, a rich and powerful order within the Catholic Church. With a statement issued Saturday, the Vatican finally acknowledged the serious problems within the religious order. The Mexican priest who founded it in 1941, Rev. Marcial Maciel Degollado, molested boys and seminarians for decades. He also fathered three children with two different women.

The Vatican statement summarized the findings of five bishops who investigated the allegations against Maciel. The Vatican said:

The very serious and objectively immoral behavior of Father Maciel, as incontrovertible evidence has confirmed, sometimes resulted in actual crimes, and manifests a life devoid of scruples and of genuine religious sentiment. The great majority of Legionaries were unaware of this life, above all because of the system of relationships built by Father Maciel, who had skillfully managed to build up alibis, to gain the trust, the confidence and the silence of those around him, and to strengthen his role as a charismatic founder.

Not infrequently, the lamentable discrediting and dismissal of whoever doubted his behavior was upright, as well as the misguided conviction of those who did not want to harm the good that the Legion was doing, created around him a defense mechanism that made him untouchable for a long time, making it very difficult to know his real life.

In other words, Father Marcial Maciel Degollado, who counted several popes among his best friends, was a sociopath.

50 years of exploitation

As early as 1956, the Vatican investigated charges against Maciel of drug use and sexual abuse of boys and seminarians. He was suspended for three years, but reinstated in 1959.

Complaints were filed against Maciel periodically, including one in 1997. That investigation was quashed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who is now, of course, the pope. According to Jason Berry, a reporter who has researched the case thoroughly, Ratzinger was pressured by Pope John Paul II’s secretary of state, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, who staunchly defended Maciel.

Why? Well, Maciel’s Legionaries of Christ was “known for militant spirituality, papal loyalty and a $650 million budget,” Berry wrote. The order also delivered vocations—men who wanted to be priests—when interest in the priesthood was declining in most of the developed world.

Here’s what Jason Berry posted a month ago on Politics Daily:

In 1997, nine ex-Legionaries opened their lives for the Hartford Courant, telling me and Gerald Renner how Maciel had sexually abused them in seminary. Asserting his innocence, Maciel refused to be interviewed. The Vatican was utterly silent on our questions about victim accusations against Maciel that went through church channels to Paul VI in 1976, John Paul II in 1978 and 1989. In 1998, the men filed a prosecution request in Ratzinger’s tribunal. Sodano pressured Ratzinger to halt the case. Maciel and Sodano were close friends for years. As secretary of state, Sodano was effectively John Paul’s prime minister. Finally, with the pope dying in 2004, Ratzinger broke ranks with Sodano and ordered an investigation. In 2005, Sodano’s office stated, falsely, that the investigation was over. In 2006, Benedict banished Maciel to “a life of prayer and penitence.”

Jason Berry wrote a book and a documentary about the case, both called Vows of Silence. The title reflects the fact that, until recently, Legion members took a vow not to criticize their superiors, including Maciel. The preview for the film is haunting. See it here:

Vows of Silence preview

Money instead of morality

This case is an appalling example of money and politics overriding morality in the Catholic Church. Here is part of an Associated Press article on the controversy published last week:

Edward Peters, a canon lawyer who teaches at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, has said he wonders whether the disgraced priest created the order “to assure himself of ample access to sexual targets and unaccountable funds.”

The Legion now claims a membership of more than 800 priests and 2,500 seminarians in 22 countries, along with 70,000 members in its lay arm, Regnum Christi. The movement’s global network includes charities, Catholic news outlets, seminaries for young boys, K-12 schools, and universities in Mexico, Italy, and elsewhere. Among its U.S. operations is the University of Sacramento in California, a seminary in Cheshire, Conn., and schools in Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Georgia and Texas.

The order has never publicized its finances, but its worldwide assets are estimated to have grown into the billions of dollars.

The case against Maciel has long been seen as emblematic of Vatican inaction on abuse complaints specifically under Pope John Paul II.

John Paul championed the group for its loyalty, traditionalism and success recruiting men to religious life at a time when seminary enrollment generally was dismal. The late pontiff did not waver in his public support after nine ex-Legionaries filed a canon law case at the Vatican against Maciel in 1998, and after broad news coverage of the many claims against the priest.

Too little, too late

I spent eight years in Catholic school. My cousin was abused by a priest when he was young. He got a settlement, which he blew partying. He is now a heroin addict.

The Vatican is acting, but as in the abuse scandals in the U.S., Ireland and Germany, the action is too little, too late. The Vatican has blamed the entire scandal on a rogue priest, without mentioning the lack of official Church response—at best, a blind eye, at worst, a cover-up.

Rev. Marcial Maciel Degollado was shuffled off to a “life of penitence” in 2006. He was not defrocked. He was not prosecuted. And when he died in 2008, the Legionaires of Christ organization stated that he “went to heaven.”

Some critics believe that the entire Legionaires of Christ organization should be shut down. The people who Maciel groomed for leadership are still there. But the pope isn’t doing that—he’s sent his envoy to turn things around. After all, I’m sure the Church doesn’t want to part with all that money.

In The Betrayal Bond, author Patrick J. Carnes states that the worst type of abuse is spiritual abuse. That’s been going on in the Catholic Church for decades, and it doesn’t look like the hierarchy really wants to make amends.

Posted in: Donna Andersen

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Donna and all

Gas lighting done on a massive scale, endless excuses and refusal to take responsibility, silence, pomp and ceremony as mystifying tactics…I would be very cautious at putting the blame at the feet of one man who fits the evil profile of a psychopath when considering the Catholic Church, is’nt that what happened Jesus?

I am a recovering Catholic. I was damaged by putting my faith in a patriarchal system deeply flawed by lack of empathy for ordinary human beings.
My faith is now with the original spirit that was Jesus Christ. I just look to his life to get the reference point of what being Christian means. He did not go NEAR the riches and splendour the Catholic Church have amassed in property and churches/Cathedrals etc.

Jesus preached barefoot on a hill, he had compassion, empathy, was/is inspirational and defiant of bullshitters and braggers. He was betrayed horrifically himself and died at the hands of no conscience…The church will twist this fact also to suit their aims..

As for psychopaths? oh my lord the church seems to be full of them….what attracted them there in the first place? was it the easy access to children, the position of power in the community, the perfect bullshitter paradise….just mouth the words that were in the bible and pretend to be good to abuse the trust of a little girl or boy?

So that Catholic Church you see on the TV with Pope Benedict etc. appears to care more about the image of the “powerful infallible unquestionable church” (a very psychopathic stance ) than a small helpless abused baby. Jesus Christ was dripping with empathy for children not so the priests that act in his name. They STOLE Jesus’s identity to abuse, hurt and control.

Christ is the empathetic compassionate consciousness that is all over the world not just housed in that vast cathedral of lies. excuse the rant, but when you see through one psychopath up close, you see it where it is, no doubt.
the hierarchy do not seem to want to make amends….familiar isnt it?


Thanks for this article, Donna – it’s an incredible testament to the “power” of organized religion.

Although it addresses a specific denomination, religion is powerful and has (in my opinion) been dictated as various methods of control. It is a perfect environment for the spath to work their targets. Leaders are held in high regard, revered, and are placed (by their followers) above accountability.

How many people, past and present, suffered abominable abuse and cruelties in the name of some religion?

Elizabeth Conley

Sociopaths in church leadership make Christians more than a little gun shy.

There’s a “missionary” jailed in Haiti awaiting trial who is just one more case in point. Her name is Laura Silsby.

She fits the profile of a sociopath, and yet a group of Baptist Churches in the Midwest sent their faithful to Haiti in support of Silsby’s “mission”. Silsby claimed she had come to Haiti in the wake of the devastating earthquakes to rescue orphans. She told her naive recruits from the Midwest they were legally transporting orphans from Haiti to an orphanage in the Dominican Republic.

In reality, she and her dupes were smuggling the children of families Silsby had tricked into “temporarily” placing in her custody. There was no orphanage or school for children in the Dominican Republic. There was no documentation to take the children from Haiti. This was Silsby’s second attempt at mass kidnapping of children. She had been repeatedly warned by both Dominican and Haitian officials that what she was doing was against Haitian law.

Silsby is still in jail, because the wheels of justice move slowly. Her dupes in the Midwest still refuse to accept that they were involved in kidnapping and human trafficking. They clamor for her release, and whine about her “unjust” captivity.

The U.S. State department politely declines to “rescue” Silsby, because the much maligned Haitian government is absolutely within their rights to prosecute Silsby. She’s a remorseless, relentless trafficker in Haitian children. Nothing short of prosecution and incarceration will stop her.

Worse, it’s hard to figure out what it will take to get her dupes to “see the light”. When will they figure out Silsby is a sociopath? When will they stop supporting the “missions” of people with a clear public record of Sociopathic behavior? (Silsby’s public history reads like a textbook description of a Sociopath.) What will it take to persuade Christians to practice a bit of discernment when choosing leaders for ministries?

Every week there are several email invitations in my inbox, all encouraging me to support a “mission” or a “missionary”. I don’t support many of them. Most of these invitations don’t have enough details about who the leaders are and what they’ve actually done in the past.

Too many of the ministries I’ve investigated in the past have turned out to be fraudulent. In some cases they’ve been lead by malignant narcissists or sociopaths. With every other incarcerated sociopath announcing his conversion to Christianity and intent to start a ministry upon release, I find myself doubly skeptical.

As Christians, we owe it to God to be very careful which ministries we support. We can’t keep foisting sociopathic ministry leaders on humanity with impunity. There are serious consequences resulting from our lack of discernment.


Anyone ever hear of Constantine the Great?


my parents (80 plus years old) and myself are Catholics. Lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater.


I have found great comfort in praying to my Saints when I have felt most alone and haven’t had friends or family close. Growing up Polish-Catholic has been one of the stabilizing forces of my life.



I respect what you say, that you found safety in praying to the saints and catholicism….I adored St Francis of Assisi because he loved animals ….

but what about the corruption and abuse in the institution that represents the Catholic faith…the babies were sexually abused by Catholic priests, let alone the bathwater….


Elizabeth Conley

Silsby gives me the total creeps with what she attempted to pull off, it’s sick and demented. and you say:

What will it take to persuade Christians to practice a bit of discernment when choosing leaders for ministries?

when Christians themselves are CAPABLE of discerning…..


This annoys the heck out of me – I am Catholic and it turns our faith into a laughing stock. I an many other Catholic friends have wondered if the requirement for celibacy were removed from the priesthood if these abuse cases would have happened. That does in no way excuse the abuse that has been perpetrated against innocent children, but you find less abuse in Christian denominations where the priests / ministers are allowed to take a wife and lead a normal family life.

With regard to the P, being Catholic encouraged me to stick around and keep trying to work on the marriage. A divorced woman has no standing in the Catholic church as marriage is seen as being forever. I recall my own mother feeling like a second class citizen in church services and not going up to receive communion as she felt ashamed of having divorced my alcoholic father. She had no choice, but to divorce him – he was in later years diagnosed with mental illness and she lived a life of sheer hell with him, but the church doesn’t support divorce for any reason. If I want to marry within the catholic church in the future, I have to go through a humilating process to apply for anulment of the marriage – very difficult when there are no real witnesses to the abuse that happened and there was no formal diagnosis. SO I just have to stay away from the church and accept that by divorcing I have ended my association with catholicism.

The church needs to move with the times and recognise that some situations in marriage are totally untenable but will have no witnesses to corroborate what happened behind closed doors. It’s strange to consider that the hierarchy that supports abuse of children would stand in judgement of me if I applied for anulment!


Celibacy has nothing to do with abuse of people – look at ANY denomination, and you will find philanderers, abusers, and spaths. Any religion can provide comfort, solace, and hope, but the core doctrines can (and will) be warped, twisted, and perverted to fit the needs of the fallible human beings in leadership roles. Like I posted on another page: what’s the first thing that an invading country does to a weaker Nation? Take away its religion.

Men and women choose to distort the core values for their purposes, period, whether it’s the Catholic Church, the People’s Temple, or Southern Baptists – they can all be used to manipulate, twist, and use.

Ox Drover

test post: last two went to cyber space

Elizabeth Conley

Here’s an important perspective:

When sociopathic church leaders make us queasy with their excesses, it’s a struggle to recall the good things churches do. Nonetheless, there are great ministries that need our support.

Ox Drover

I realized why my posts here won’t go through I have been trying to link to a web site by “andrew vachss dot com” to an article about “sex predators can’t be saved” and for some reason that link makes my entire post go to cyberspace!


Well, I guess typing it all out three times, THREE TIMES got the rancor out of my soul about the above article and the guy who should have been hung drawn and quartered!

In reality I don’t have anything “new” to say that someone here4 has not already said 5-500 times here, we all know what we think about sexual predators, about psychopaths masquerading as “religious” people, good people, etc. and the people (dupes) that they get to defend them and persecute the victim. We all know how the victim of persecut9ion from the Ps and the dupes feel, because we’ve been there!

POX ON EM ALL! The church or the law may let them “get away” with it,. but I have a feeling God is going to be a bit CRANKY about that behavior. Like maybe a “hot spot in hell!”


Pollyanna , I am so sorry for what your mom and you have gone thru- you said (paraphrasing) I recall my own mother feeling like a second class citizen for divorcing my alcoholic father….the church dosen’t support divorce for any reason…

Jesus came to the world not to CONDEMN the world, But to save it.
It sounds like the catholic church along with MANY “religious” churches of various denominations are missing it and losing souls with their ungodly condemnations and self righteous judgements- along with the hideious crimes being committed.

You can’t say they are “playing God,” as God is in no way characterized or represented in these actions.
As a christian, I too have been devastated by spiritual abuse- wolves in sheeps clothing. The bible audaciously warns us against those who set out, and continue to do evil.

It took me a long time to understand that “man” corrupts God’s way. Evil people of this world, thru their immorality & religion based deceit, unfortunately try to drive us away from the truth, from God, and anything holy. But we have to be vigilant in seeking the truth and as the bible says- work out our own salvation with fear and trembling… I personally take that as relying/depending on the word of God as the final authority – not man . xoxo and peace to you..

Quantum Solace

I absolutely love the guy’s last name “Degollado” which in Spanish means “beheaded” – How’s that for appropriate? As for this type of phenomenom, it seems to be more prevalent in the church (no matter what the denomination), I guess they find more gullible people there to prey upon and take advantage of.


Well, there are predators everywhere. I enjoy my faith and my Church. I agree that ‘priests’ that abuse children should be outed and jailed. Sociopaths in every walk of life (priests, CEOs, government) should be taken down.


All those at the top of the game of the Catholic Church are well aware that Jesus warned us that there would be false preachers of His Truth …

“But there were also false prophets (teachers of His word) among the people even as there will be false teachers among you. . . 2 Peter 2:1.

“For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness. . .” Jude 4

Jesus also told us that it is OUR responsibility (each and every one of us) to read His letter He sent us (the Holy Bible) and then we are to debate scriptures among each other so that we sharpen each other with His Truth.

Scriptures also says true pastors who teach Jesus’ truth will expose FALSE TEACHERS (John 10:12-13, Ephesians 5:11).

With all that has happened in the Catholic Churches throughout the world as they continue to hide these ungodly men of the world who are obsessed with sinning via LUST OF THE FLESH, not abiding in His Truth (to live and conduct ourselves SPIRITUALLY, not CARNALLY) …

Remember what God hates (yes, God loves Us, but he also hates some):

Proverbs 6:17-19 lists seven things that God hates. In a Hebrew idiom used for emphasis, Solomon said, “These six things doth the LORD hate; yea, seven are an abomination unto him:”

1. A proud look

Pride is manifested in lofty eyes, which is the literal Hebrew meaning of that phrase. Someone who is prideful has his nose in the air and his eyes uplifted. When pride fills the heart, it is reflected in one’s mannerisms. God hates people who disdain everyone and everything. The sin of pride is probably listed first because it is the root of all disobedience and rebellion against God (Rom. 1:22).

2. A lying tongue

God is a God of truth who cannot lie (Heb. 6:18). That He loves truth and hates lying is illustrated in the account of Ananias and Sapphira, who lied to the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:1-11). God took their lives as an example to the early church of His holiness.

3. Murderous hands

Verse 17 says that God hates “hands that shed innocent blood.” God hates people with murderous, cruel dispositions who will kill rather than be denied or frustrated of what they want. God hates murder because He created life and established its sanctity. Therefore God ordained that when someone takes a life, he should pay with his own life (Gen. 9:6).

4. A wicked heart

God hates “an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations” (v. 18). It’s bad enough for a person to do evil, but it’s even worse when he plans at great length on how to do it. A wicked heart is the devil’s workshop for devising new ways of sinning.

5. Mischievous feet

God also hates “feet that are swift in running to mischief” (v. 18). The difference between this and normal sinning is that normal sinning is described in the Bible as a falling or a tripping. But the mischievous person purposely runs as fast as he can–he’s in a hurry to sin.

6. A false witness

Another thing God hates is “a false witness that speaketh lies” (v. 19). God hates people who put the blame on an innocent party. David, Jesus, and Paul experienced accusations by false witnesses (Ps. 27:12; Matt. 26:59-61; Acts 25:7-8). Bearing false witness obstructs justice, destroys reputations, and even destroys lives in some cases.

7. A devisive spirit

Verse 19 says that God also hates people who “soweth discord among brethren.” Troublemakers create divisions where there should be unity.

The things God hates are in direct opposition to the things He loves: truth, goodness, and unity. Because He loves men to worship Him in truth, He hates idolatry and hypocritical religion. His hatred is the antithesis of His love.

Now, what part of the above, do the Catholic big shots NOT understand?


Ox Drover

Dear Wini,

Good post, and guess what you just described—-THE HEARTS OF PSYCHOPATHS, a perfect description!!!!

When psychopaths get into a position of POWER in any group they use all those things to bring power to themselves and to abuse others and cover up their own wicked and evil deeds.

The “wolves in sheeps clothing” that get into the “fold” (church) and tear the “sheep” to pieces are the worst of the worst! In any religious or spiritual group, that makes it an even worse betrayal. POX ON’EM!



God bless you and AMEN sister!


oxy – that they – to come into a spiritual or any other community and prey on our weaknesses and pit us against one another tear the herd to shreds is yet another sin.

my ppath is good at it. probably what gets her rocks off.


Ox Drover

Pox On top of their pox!!


Fox on socks on rocks on pox….I’ve been reading too much Dr. Suess with my niece…..sorry.

Just trying to keep the “pox” thing going….

Ox Drover

I printed off your post Wini, it also brought to mind what Jesus said about “the little children” which he told his disciples to “forbid them not to come unto me.” Jesus also said, “anyone who hurts one of these little ones would be better off if a mill stone were tied about his neck and he was tossed into the sea.”

I have no doubt that each of these men or women who have harmed those innocent little ones will find themselves in the hands of an ANGRY GOD, regardless of what the Pope or anyone else on this earth does or does not do to them for what they have done.

Child molestation happens to be one of my big “triggers” to anger and desire for “murder!” But I do firmly believe that there will be a day of judgment on these creatures. Gpd I believe looks at what a person REALLY is not outward appearance.

EC’s article about the “grass roots” nuns and priests, ministers and members, working hard to help of others, and not the bureaucracy sitting in palaces pretending to be “Kings” is what the church of Christ is all about. At the time of Jesus’ life on earth the Jewish “elite” in the religious community were the same way, trying to get lying witnesses and using the cover of religion to use the poor and abuse others. The also didn’t like Jesus calling them out on their behavior either and tried to figure out how to cover it up and get him killed.

It didn’t work then and it won’t work now….there is going to have to be some accountability.


Oxy, it pains my heart, as I’m sure everyone’s elses’ on this site, that some people just don’t get what Jesus taught us … that we are suppose to live our lives by His spiritual teachings instead of walking the path of carnal lust which of course, is a sin.

As you are aware, Jesus knew we were born into a carnal body that would sin … that’s why he gave us marriage to fulfill that carnal lust which is sanctioned in the marital bed. All the rest of the carnal sins (lust of anything) are taboo. The Catholic Church is well aware about the carnal lusts in life. Therefore, they have NO excuse.

As we stated on this blog many times, those that witness others being bullied are just as guilty as those that do the actual bullying. Same thing with the higher ups in the Catholic churches … they are just as guilty standing by and doing nothing, staying silent, while the wolves in sheep’s clothing hiding behind priest’s garb abused whoever they wanted.

Ox Drover

The thing is, Wini, pedophiles don’t care if they are married or not, they prey on CHILDREN as their targets IN ADDITION—this guy had children by women as well as preyed on young men and boys! Psychopaths are neither gay nor straight, they are just sexual plredators! with the heavy on PREY!


Oxy, the top echelon in the Catholic Church knows the following passages from the Scriptures of Jesus …

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. (Jeremiah 17:9; see also Romans 3:9-18),

That’s why Jesus told us to read, comprehend and abide in His wisdom (Truth) … hence, he gave us this passage to follow.

A wise man fears and departs from evil (by reading, comprehending and abiding in Jesus wisdom written in the Bible), but a fool (anti-social personalities) rages and is self-confident. (Proverbs 14:16).

Knowing FOOLS (aka the sociopaths or psychopaths of society) do not want to learn or refuse to learn wisdom, Jesus gave us the following truth …

If your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched – where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ (Mark 9:45-46).

Which I just learned means, if the person does NOT want to conform to live within harmony with others, cut him/her out of the community. It is better that the non-conformist leaves, or be locked up … away from gentile society, so the rest can live in harmony.

Did the Catholic big shots lock (or cut these ) lust puppy priests out of community?

A big NO to this question. Did these folks get to the top of the heap in society? YES they did and are still sitting pretty.

Therefore, they are guilty, guilty, guilty of why our society has so many predators living among us. Oh, they are the predators.

Same thing goes for the death penalty. Jesus told us to sentence (murderers) to death. He’ll judge them when they get back with Him. Public executions are to be held so others can see with their own eyes and know what the ultimate price is to pay with their life so that they want to live in harmony with others in society.

Murderers actually kill the body, but other anti-socials kill the human spirit and leave the victim(s) alive so they can suffer through their lives due to their evil deeds that were perpetrated on them.

Some times I feel like … “beam me up now Scotty, the evil ones have taken over”.

Ya Think?


Wini – it is heinous that unless ppaths steal our money or goods they are not guilty within the eyes of the law; my spirit has no worth.


one_step_at_a_time, even if you won and the courts told you that you won … our court system doesn’t collect for you. That’s the catch22 with our courts. Try and collect the justice you were awarded.

That’s why it’s important for everyone to pay attention to who you vote into office.


that’s true wini – but it would be good to have the recourse.

it would cost money and time and a great deal of energy to take her to court. but if it happened enough times, it might slow her down. i guess i have to give up the illusion that anything truly will slow her down, before death takes her.


One Step,
Think of it this way…Your spirit has worth….The courts can’t put a price on your worth. It is worth more than money.


one_step_at_a_time, you can always do what I do now … which is to mentally envision that the BIG WORM that personally gets assigned to each and every one of them that goes out of their way to due evil to others is happening right now, down on earth.

That is Jesus’ truth. It is written. Why should we have to wait, we have imaginations (LOL). aka BURN WITH THAT WORM BABY!


wini – well, i must say that i am rather taken aback by your using Jesus’s name and ‘BURN WITH THAT WORM BABY’ in the same line.



witty – yes. you are correct. like when workers compensation sent me 7000 a few years ago when i lost the use for my hands (this payment was not connected with economic loss (for which i got nothing) but personal loss not related to work)

i was out of the country and a friend read the decision to me and i laughed – right, 7000; to make up for never being able to do half of the things i used to. i had legal recourse then, but the system in place would never value my prior ability to make the finest art or hold a drill, throw a bale, or to wield a knife for hours on end to make the most beautiful food.


One Step, witsend is correct. We are God’s children. He loves us and He told us that we would be persecuted (like He was) by the FOOLS (aka paths and pyschos) that follow Satan.

The only thing He asks, is that we continue to follow His truth so that we can learn how to LOVE (give and receive LOVE) … and then, endure to the end.

So, no matter how many times these anti-socials jump into our space (WHO CAN’T FEEL or LOVE by the way, only give us lip service), don’t step off the narrow path that leads to His glory … because, the FOOLS are on the wide path that leads to the eternal fires.

It’s all a matter of time. On God’s time, not ours.


one_step_at_a_time says, I didn’t make that up. Jesus wrote it many times when he describes HELL (aka the eternal fires) that consumes all the EVIL ones.

Here’s Jesus’ scriptures on HELL.

The Lord is known by the judgment He executes. (Psalm 9:16).

The reality of hell is the most horrifying, terror striking, fearful truth known to man. It encompasses the worst possible fear and the meanest conceivable existence, continual never-ending torture.

And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10).

Most men lie to themselves and those around them (Ecclesiastes 3:11; Romans 1:18-32), but no amount of prevarication or fabrication will ever remove the eternal reality of Hell.

There is no wisdom or understanding or counsel against the Lord. (Proverbs 21:30)

Hell is a literal place (e.g. Matthew 5:29-30; 10:28). It is a literal place where literal people suffer the torment of a literal fire (e.g. Luke 16:19-31). Its location is down (Proverbs 15:24; Isaiah 14:9; Ezekiel 31:15-17; 2 Peter 2:4). Its temperature is burning hot (Luke 16:24; Revelation 19:20). Its luminance is “outer darkness” (Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 25:30), also called “the blackness of darkness” (2 Peter 2:17; Jude 13). Its size is so massive it is never filled to capacity (Proverbs 27:20), though masses of people are in it and numbers more are added continually (Matthew 7:13-14; Romans 1:18). Its smoke will ascend forever (Revelation 14:11). Its fire will never be quenched, and the worm there will never die (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43-46, 48).

Hell is the place where the vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22) will be on display before all of mankind (Isaiah 66:24) and before the holy angels and the Lord Himself (Revelation 14:10). It is where Christ will show His wrath and make His power known for all eternity (Romans 9:22; Revelation 20:10). Hell is to the glory of God (Psalm 96:7-13) and the utter destruction of the wicked (Psalm 92:5-7).

Hell is where the mockers are now mocked (Proverbs 1:26). The scoffers are now put to shame (Proverbs 3:35; 13:5). Murderers are now being tortured with perpetual death (Matthew 10:28; Revelation 21:8, “the second death”). Oppressors are now laid low (1 Samuel 2:7). Liars experience the reality that they have been lied to (Revelation 12:9). Kidnappers are now eternal captives (1 Timothy 1:10; Revelation 20:11-15). The rich suffer severe poverty (Proverbs 22:16; 28:22; Luke 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). The full are now hungry (Isaiah 65:13; Luke 6:25). The proud are rebuked (Psalm 119:21) and fully repaid (Psalm 31:23). The disobedient are punished (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9). Cowards are now “utterly consumed with terror” (Psalm 73:18-19; Proverbs 10:24; Revelation 21:8). Those who laughed are now weeping and mourning (Isaiah 65:14; Luke 6:25). Those honored by men are now despised and lightly esteemed by God (Luke 6:26; Psalm 73:18-20; 1 Samuel 2:30/Proverbs 14:2), and will in the future be abhorred by all mankind (Isaiah 66:24; Daniel 12:2). Those who have wickedly dug a pit, are now cast down into the pit (Psalm 7:14-16; 9:15-17; Proverbs 26:27; 28:10 [Ecc.10:8]). Lovers of pleasure are now tormented with fire (2 Timothy 3:4; Revelation 21:8). Those who cursed are now cursed (Proverbs 20:20). Those who considered the cross foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) are now shown the shrewdness of God (2 Samuel 22:26-28). God indeed is not mocked. Men will reap what they have sown (Galatians 6:7-8).

To get to hell, the directions are quite simple and easy to follow. All one has to do is continue to sin (Ezekiel 18:4, 20; Romans 6:23; Revelation 21:8), which, without the Savior, is impossible to do otherwise (John 8:34-36). Continue on the course you have followed from birth (Psalm 58:3), and you are sure to get there (Romans 2:6-9).

The rich man in Hades cried and said, “I am tormented in this flame” (Luke 16:24). Those in hell are tortured by God (Matthew 18:34-35) in an everlasting fire (Matthew 18:8; 25:41). They are being burned continually with a fire that will never be quenched (Mark 9:43-48). Those in hell melt away (Psalm 112:10) at the presence of God (Psalm 68:2), because God is in hell (Psalm 139:8) consuming them with His fire (Hebrews 12:29; Psalm 50:3; 97:3). The godly can dwell with everlasting burnings (Isaiah 33:14-16), but those who despise His word are destroyed in everlasting burnings (Psalm 37:38; Proverbs 29:1; Matthew 10:28).

This destruction (Psalm 37:38; Proverbs 29:1; Matthew 7:13; Romans 9:22; Philippians 3:19) is a continual state of being destroyed. It is an “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9; Psalm 92:7), as the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed (Genesis 19:24; 2 Peter 2:6), and now,

are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 7)

The people of Sodom and Gomorrah have been suffering the vengeance of eternal fire for roughly 4000 years now, and they have absolutely no hope of relief. They have been in horrible pain for 4000 years, and all they have to look forward to is more torture for the rest of eternity; and the Lord has set them forth as an example for mankind that this is what they too will receive if they continue to live ungodly lives. For,

Upon the wicked He will rain coals; fire and brimstone and a burning wind shall be the portion of their cup. (Psalm 11:6; see also Psalm 140:10)

Psalm 11:6 describes hell not as a passively burning fire, but rather an actively aggressive fire that is raining hot coals along with a burning wind down upon those in hell. The weather in hell is always bad. It not only has coals of fire (Proverbs 25:22; Romans 12:20) and burning wind, but it is smoky as well, burning with a smoke that will continually rise up from the torment of those in it (Psalm 37:20; Revelation 14:11; see also Isaiah 34:10; Revelation 19:3). So, smoke ascends upward, coals of fire descend downward, and the fire, sulfur, and people burn in its midst (Revelation 21:8). Jesus called hell “the furnace of fire” (Matthew 13:42, 50).

Moreover, hell’s torture is quite physical. Jesus said,

Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

God destroys both the soul and the body in hell. Jesus likewise warned,

If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. (Matthew 5:29-30)

Clearly “the body” is cast into hell. The rich man in Hades exemplified this when he said,

“Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue.” (Luke 16:24)

His tongue was (and still is) burning hot.

Along with the torture of fire, coals raining down, smoke, and a burning wind, is the continual stabbing of being eaten. “Death shall feed on them” (Psalm 49:14). The moth and “the worm will eat them” (Isaiah 14:11; 50:9; 51:7-8; 66:24; see also Job 24:19-20). While they are being eaten, they themselves will suffer in thirst and hunger (Isaiah 65:13; Luke 6:25). They will wail, weep, and gnash their teeth (Psalm 112:10; Matthew 8:12; 13:42, 49-50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:23-28). Some, or all, may be torn in pieces (Psalm 50:22), or cut in two (Matthew 24:51; Luke 12:46), and have their tongue cut out (Proverbs 10:31-32); and they will lie down in torment (Isaiah 50:11).

Those in hell will never experience “the fullness of joy” (Psalm 16:11; Matthew 7:23; 25:41; Luke 13:27). Although they will know Yahweh is “the Most High over all the earth” (Psalm 83:13-18), they will never know God (John 17:3) or enjoy His presence (Psalm 140:13). They will seek Him (Psalm 83:16), but they will not find Him (Proverbs 1:27-28). They “will go away into everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46), and “the fire shall devour them” (Psalm 21:9).

Furthermore, the people in hell are all wicked and will continue to be evil for all eternity (Revelation 22:11). There is no salvation for those who go to hell. It is said of false teachers that they “will utterly perish in their own corruption” (2 Peter 2:12). Revelation 22:15 says,

But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

It can be seen from Revelation 21:8 that “outside” is in the lake of fire, because Revelation 21:8 reveals that these same people (sorcerers, sexually immoral, murderers, idolaters) “have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.” Therefore, even in the eternal state (Revelation 21-22), the wicked are outside of the kingdom of God in the lake of fire, still lost in their sin. That is hell!

Thus, the wicked, since they all hate God (Psalm 10:3-4; Proverbs 14:2), will hate Him for the rest of eternity as they suffer under “His living and burning wrath” (Psalm 58:9). They will be brought to confusion, shame, and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2), and “their everlasting confusion will never be forgotten.” (Isaiah 45:16; Jeremiah 20:11; James 3:16).

Yes it is. Hell is horribly cruel.

Some may say, “God would not be so cruel so as to torment such a mass of humanity for all eternity,” yet those who say such things do not know the God of the Bible. In His wrath, God is cruel. Proverbs 27:4 says, “Wrath is cruel,” and the most cruel wrath in all existence is the anger of the Almighty God (e.g. Deuteronomy 28:15-68; 2 Chronicles 21:19; [Job 30:21/2:3] Revelation 16:10). When the Lord moves in His wrath towards the sons of men, He acts very cruelly.

As Isaiah 13:9 says,

Behold, the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and He will destroy its sinners from it.

Solomon described God’s wrath as cruel when he said,

For man also does not know his time: like fish taken in a cruel net, like birds caught in a snare, so the sons of men are snared in an evil time, when it falls suddenly upon them. (Ecclesiastes 9:12; see also Proverbs 17:11)

Death cruelly falls suddenly upon men by the hand of God, and what is more cruel than death (Song of Solomon 8:6)? The second death is eternally worse (Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8). So, although men may complain against the cruelty of hell, it nonetheless is true, and all those who reject this truth will forever experience this cruel hand of God; and will know that the Most High rules over the sons of men.

Hell Is Eternal …?

Some fools may argue against the eternality of hell, even though the language in Scripture is extremely clear (e.g. Matthew 25:41, 46; Jude 7; Revelation 20:10), and they themselves know that it lasts forever (Ecclesiastes 3:11; Romans 1:18-19, 32). The natural mind (1 Corinthians 2:14) may very well note Scriptures that speak of the destruction of the wicked (e.g. Psalm 21:9; 55:23; 92:7) and view this with an earthly understanding (Proverbs 3:5-6), as if it is an event with an end. What they fail to recognize is, that, even on the earth, it takes time, either short or long, to kill and destroy someone or burn them up. In hell, God takes all eternity to finish His cause. He takes forever to burn them up (Matthew 3:12). This is the significance of the “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “the everlasting fire” (Matthew 18:8; 25:41), and “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

Even though Isaiah 66:24 calls the people in hell corpses and in Revelation 21:8 the lake of fire is called the second death, Scripture describes this state of death, destruction, this state of being devoured, eaten, and dying, as a continual unending process that lasts all eternity. Matthew 25:46 calls it “everlasting punishment.” Those who where in Sodom and Gomorrah are presently very familiar with this “everlasting punishment” because they themselves are right now “suffering the vengeance of eternal fire,” and there is no hope of any change of their torment. This is the significance of Jesus’ statement in Mark 9 where He warns of hell. Three times He says,


Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:44, 46, 48)

He says, “their worm,” not “a worm.” The people in hell have their own personal worm forever. The worm never dies, and it stays “theirs” forever. In other words, “theirs” (they) are still in existence, along with the worm and the fire that will never be quenched, as Revelation 20:10 describes those in the lake of fire with these words:

They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Some may want to argue over words (1 Timothy 6:4) and argue against the words “forever and ever.” The Greek words translated, “forever and ever,” in Revelation 20:10 are tous aiônas tôn aiônôn. These same exact words are used for God’s eternal glory (Galatians 1:5; Philippians 4:20; 1 Timothy 1:17; 2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 13:21; 1 Peter 4:11; 5:11; Revelation 1:6; 5:13; 7:12), for Christ’s eternal living, never ever to experience death again (Revelation 1:18), for God who lives forever and ever (Revelation 4:9-10; 10:6; 15:7), for Christ’s eternal reign (Revelation 11:15), for eternal smoke (Revelation 19:3), and the eternal reign of the saints (Revelation 22:5).

And scriptures goes on and on about what HELL is ” so the conclusion is don’t go to hell like the rest of the world that loves doing evil.

FEAR God (meaning, learn his wisdom and live the way he teaches us by keeping His commandments, for this is man’s all. For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).

Of course, there is more to Jesus’ explanation of what he will do to the evil ones. That was just some of what is and has been written by GOD.



wini – i am not a Christian. But am not a secular person in a Judeo Christian culture; I am Buddhist.

I have neither read scripture, nor been influenced by the descriptions of a Christian heaven or hell, or what is considered ‘sin.’

But I have found time and time again I come back to this word ‘evil’ and am searching out understandings of ‘evil’ as I go through this search to understand psychopathy; and the destruction the ppath wrought in my life. Many descriptions of ‘evil’ are to be found in biblical writings, and I thank you for your posts today, with their extensive quotes. it seems each one of us shares from our abilities and strengths here, and contributes to the alchemists mix of healing that is lovefraud.

and FYI – Buddhism has 7 hells. 😉


One_Step, this is how I look at God’s Truth.

WE (every single one of us born of women) are CHILDREN OF GOD’s. That too is written.

We knew Him before He allowed us to come down to earth to experience life in human form. We know before we came here what he expects of us. Therefore, He gave ALL of us free will to decide for ourselves if we want to follow Him (TRUTH) or follow Satan (LIES). He told us … life on earth is JUST a test. Don’t buy into the earthly way of living. Remember what I told you how to live while visiting earth in human form.

Therefore, even though you’ve never read His letter to us (the Holy Bible) doesn’t mean that in your subconscious (aka gut instincts) you don’t know what is right and what is wrong and that we are to love others as God loves us. That is our ultimate TEST! Can we figure out how to LOVE others so we can love God.

His Bible is our blueprint (a reminder) of what He already taught us before we came down to earth. Now we are down here going solo (on FAITH) …and He will judge us at the end of His testing period.

All our names are written in the Book of Life. The book records all our deeds, good or evil.



absolutely beautiful wini.


I think there’s such a thing as a “living hell.” What an empty existence it must be to not have a conscience. To me, that’s hell-on-earth.


There is alot of truth to this statement. This would be hell on earth.
Their existence really IS empty if you think about it. Never knowing the feeling of love. I can’t even imagine this.

Wini, I cant help but worry about my two spath daughters, now 44 and almost 46 years old. I dont know if youve read any of my older blogs here, re my girls, but they have put me thru absolute hell on earth for around 30 plus years. I still have some love left for them, but have been totally NC with one for 17 years,{her idea, not mine,} and have not been allowed to see any of her 3 kids, now 13, 11, and 2 years old.
The older daughter, Ive been totally NC with for one year now, since finding LF, and getting an education re gaslighting, mirroring, using, projection, etc. etc.They wer e brought up as hristians, went to church ,sunday school, etc. I was saved and born again in 1978, altho Id been brought up as Presbyterian in Scotland.I gota promise from the Lord 13 years ago, re my daughters. I was told to read the whole chapter of Isiaiah 54, and given a poem.
here is the poem,{at the same time, I hada vision of a tall masted ship witha flag on the top most mast , with a cross of Christ on it.}The poem went,
“Nail this promise to the Mast,
I WILL bring them home, at last!.”
The other day, I got to thinking, when Jesus said to me “AT LAST maybe He literally meant at last, ie, theyd be saved at the very last minute, by the skin of their teeth, as a “brand from the burning”.I have been stolen from, lied to decieved, conned, gaslighted,mocked,stonewalled,{ie, sent to Coventry.} They have used their kids as pawns to torture me with.I have been banned from the older ones wedding. My house and studio were wrecke d by her.She threw a red hot steam iron at my face,{luckily it missed.} I was beaten on the legs with a bamboo pole, leaving purple welts. My paintings and books were destroyed by her.I will NEVEr get an apology or closure from her.I find it very hard to forgive the younger one for preventing me from ever seeing her kids, or being a Grandma to them.Despite all this, they are my children, and I dont want them to go to hell. I have to believe Christs promise to me that He will save them AT LAST.
Their attitude are, patronising, superior, entitled, cold, hard, cruel,unloving, no consciense, no remorse,no guilt. I am always the baddie in their eyes, despite treating them with love, kindness and generosity ever since I remarried in 1984.
They have also treated my darling second husband with cruel, cold contempt, and indifference.Love, Gem.


{{{{Geminigirl}}}} Their redemption isn’t your responsibility. My spath son claims to be a “changed man of God,” and has used religion consistently to troll for male AND female targets. The only thing that I can to is to pray for his healing. I love both of my sons, but I think I have to define what it is that I love: I love what they each could have achieved. In order to protect my emotions, I had to say, “What he could have been, he’s thrown out the window with both hands and eyes open. And, I can’t save him.”

Geminigirl, build your “family” around those who can (and, will) return your goodwill without reservations. DNA doesn’t preclude what “family” is. Your value is better served by surrounding yourself with those who are of good heart. Brightest blessings!

Ox Drover

Dear Buttons,

When I first came to LF 2+ Years ago most of the people posting here were recovering from some sort of “love fraud” with a spouse or lover, and I seemed to be the exception with a family full of psychopaths, but it is amazing to me just how many people are here now recovering from the devestation of a child (or adult child) who is a psychopath. Many of them also were involved with the psychopathic father/mother of the psychopath offspring.

Many people here have MULTIPLE relationships with psychopaths either in or out of the family, or both! A few people are here after a love relationship with ONE person, but many of us have been able to see that not only the one person who brought us here devestated and looking for support, but others in our lives, are also high in psychopathic traits (at best) or are also full blown psychopaths as well.

Not everyone who is a dysfunctional jerk is a psychopath, but after we start recovering from the psychopath’s devestation we become very intolerant of ANY dysfunctional relationship and we start to examine how we allow others to treat us.

We learn to set boundaries. If there is any ONE thing about us that I think we have in common it is the lack of good boundaries. Learning to set those boundaries and not fall into the GUILT, fear and anxiety about “upsetting” someone because I will not allow them to abuse me has been the most LIBERATING part of the healing process.

Ox Drover

Dear Gem,

quote: “I can’t help but….”

Sweetie, STRIKE those words from your vocabulary. WE CAN HELP BUT—we do not have to allow feelings to wash over us and take control of our lives! When you say to yourself “I can’t” you are limiting what you can feel and think.

When you find yourself worrying or feeling bad about your daughters, STOP and say to yourself. “I am in control of my thoughts and feelings and I choose to not worry or feel bad about THEIR CHOICES” If you have to say this 1000 times an hour do it! It will get easier with time.

We don’t have control over how anyone except ourselves feels or thinks or acts, but we CAN take control over ourselves, we can work through the grief. I used to worry 24/7 about my P-son’s safety in prison, was someone raping him, was he being beaten up, etc.? Now I do NOT worry, because he CHOSE to be where he is by what he did. Prison is not a nice place to be, but he killed a woman and he is paying the price for it. Whatever happens to him is a result of HIS choices. I no longer even WANT a relationship with him, I no longer grieve over what he could have been, and frankly I have NO gushy feeling toward the man in the cell. My “son” died a long time ago, that MAN is a STRANGER to me. The DNA doesn’t matter any more. The little boy I loved and had such high hopes for is GONE! Your girls are GONE as well. Those toxic women are not your little girls. (((((Hugs)))) Love oxy


Dear geminigirl, I check in to this site once in a while, so I am not up to date on everyone’s situations. As you can guess, I too had dealings with sociopaths or psychopaths. God calls most of them FOOLS that refuse to learn His Truth. Most his children that follow Satan are Fools, but there is the demon seeds of Satan.

Let me explain this further, since I constantly look for explanations from the mental health professionals learning about what is going on with anti-social personalities and what God has told us about what is happening with His children.

So far what I’ve learned is this:

We are in the 2nd Earth Age. There are 3 Earth Ages. One prior to the 2nd Earth Age we are living in, and the 3rd Earth Age to come. When Jesus returns.

The 1st Earth Age was destroyed by God due to Satan’s sin of Pride wanting to take God’s position. Satan rebelled and took 1/3 of the Angels with Him. God was Angry and destroyed everything on the Earth … aka the dinasaurs, the people who existed before this earth age, the animals … everything.

After a period of time, God decided to put man in His image, born of woman onto the Earth. There is a lapse of time here … hence, the debate about creation.

From the beginning (Genesis) there have been many false teachers of Jesus’ truth. All man made false teachings as you can see with what happened with denominations.

Bottom line, due to the false teachings of Jesus’ truth man broke off from believing and trusting in God, our father and creator of everything.

The division created children who are blinded by Satan’s (the lie) and continue to follow him and of course, the children through faith (because of false teachers misinterpreting His truth), continue to follow God (truth) and praying to God to open His truth to them.

With knowing this basic concept, we can now understand all the chaos going on in society. The sociopaths or anti-social personalities don’t believe God exists. To them, if God doesn’t exists, then why should they care how they act? They are going to do what they want to do, when they want to do it, what ever brings pleasure to them.

Believers in God know that we are accountable for our actions because it is written. We know God exists because told us. We know that we want to be with Him when he returns to Earth. We don’t want to burn through eternity in the fires of Hell. We don’t want our brothers, sisters, loved ones to burn there either. We try to explain God’s truth to them and show them why they must live in harmony with others in society, but too many of the teachers of God’s truth are NOT reading God’s wisdom (the Holy Bible) correctly. If the teachers and preachers aren’t reading His wisdom correctly, obviously Jesus’ Truth is NOT making sense to the masses. If it doesn’t make sense to the masses, Satan gets a foothold in to get a larger group of God’s children following him (Satan) instead of following the Lord.

Now Satan knows he’s burning in the eternal flames for eternity. Satan knows, he doesn’t want to be alone. Satan lies to all God’s children that want to follow him instead of God …snd tells them whatever he wants to get them to go against God.

That’s the Truth going on through all of history. God gave us free will. Follow God and do as he tells us to do by reading His Truth (the Holy Bible), comprehending what His Truth means, and abiding in His Truth and we will live. We will know how to love. We will know how to treat others.

Follow Satan and it’s all chaos. All a crap shoot. There are no rules or regulations. There is no God (so they have been led to believe). There is no eternal flames of Hell for eternity. Do what you want to do, when you want to do it, to anyone you want to do it to. Step on and over anyone that gets in your way. There is no one recording your actions in the Book of Life. God is a joke. God is a fairy tale. God is man’s way of creating law … aka go for the gusto and who cares?

Whereas, the law is created because of God. God is truth. Everyone needs to take responsibility to read the Bible, comprehend what it says, and abide in God’s truth so they can be with the father through eternity.

As far as the anti-socials in our society … God has it built into life … keep rejecting Him (God) and continue to follow Satan and He (God) will harden your heart, blind you to His truth, deafen your ears to wisdom.


Amen (which means, so it is, or that’s the truth).



It was hard enough to read the original blog (which is wonderful Donna), but I started reading the comments, and I’m sorry, I just can’t swallow any bible verses, etc. after having such a clear example of how sociopaths in particular, abuse religion. I think the world would be much better off without religion, when you think of Holy Wars including those current today. Better that people do the right thing because it is the right thing, and not get all holy about it! I’m an aetheist and one of the more moral people I know who constantly fights injustice.

Well, hell hath no fury like that of a religious person who seems to take great offense to anyone even stating they are an aetheist, so I will probably be blasted, but I’m not on here much, so I probably won’t see it. 🙂

To get back to the original post, the power of Maciel should prove once again that almost anyone can be fooled by a sociopath, and great power just serves to hide them more. I was taken in by a doctor….and believe me, he has hid behind that white coat since the day he got it, and I know of a few lies he told to get it!


neveragain, As I stated, Christianity IS NOT A RELIGION! Christianity is REALITY ABOUT LIFE AND THE EVERLASTING ETERNITY.

Denominations are man made religions, sprinkling what they THINK is God’s truth into the mix to stroke man’s ego over the years. False preaching gives false wisdom. Not Jesus’ Truth! False preaching allows man to do what they want to do, when they want to do it, with no ramifications for their thoughts, words, actions.

I believe we all need to research what God’s truth is by having everyone on the same page (e.g. True preachers of Jesus’ Truth, Scientists, Mental Health Professionals etc all getting together to get to the bottom of what is His Truth and what is not His Truth) so we can get the bigger picture of what is truly going on with society.

I know there is an excellent preacher of God’s truth named Pastor Murray. He teaches people what Jesus wrote to us (the Holy Bible) by explaining scriptures line by line ( He also refers back to explanations from Hebrew and Greek languages and deciphers them to the English language exactly what these definitions are and mean in today’s English language.

Let me ask you, when was there ever a time you attended church when the preacher told you Jesus’ truth scripture by scripture? Each Sunday was the next line of scriptures read in sequence from Genesis to Revelations? When did everyone in church gather after mass and discuss scriptures to sharpen our knowledge of what Jesus’ truth is? I’ll tell you that answer. Never. You were taught man made truths sprinkled in with Jesus’ wisdom to appease man, not all that God wants us to know.

Bottom line, I do believe since so many preachers in the last centuries did NOT teach us Jesus’ Truth is the reason why all the injustice against each other is what we are witnessing in society today. Lies, not Jesus’ TRUTH is why the generations today don’t care what happens in our world? If they knew His truth, the way Jesus wants us to understand His truth, then it is logical to believe that many minds of anti-social personalities will want to listen to His WISDOM and change their belief systems which is better than the null and void they are today. If they want to continue to stay the FOOL, at least we seriously tried.

Just food for thought!


i think it is paramount that we accept one anohter as having our own paths – even if we don’t like or vehemently disagree with one another.

in terms of religious views this respect would include: no baiting with links denouncing any religion, no quoting religious text to someone who specifically identifies as an atheistic or expresses discomfort with with religious texts of ANY kind.

Most of us live in judeo/ christian cultures; but not all of us are Christian or even comfortable with Christianity for whatever reason. And some of us are very learned, and devout Christians – however this is expressed. It is inevitable that a great deal of the religious quotes posted here will be Christian. I would suggest that we think about who we are posting to and consider if that is the best way to support them.

PLEASE show respect to this forum, and to one another. You are all so freaking amazing and we do have to work to keep this lf togehter – with love and duct tape.

one step
the reformed speaker of profanity.

Ox Drover

Dear evolvedVegan,

That was me that “joked about” someone believing in God after they died. Sorry if that offended you. It was my Psychopathic sperm donor in fact that died…and yes, he was an atheist and bragged about it, demeaning anyone who had a faith in any spirituality or God. He murdered two people that I know about and raped me. So yea, we didn’t see eye to eye on a lot of things. His scoffing at my belief system wasn’t the worst thing he ever did. And Yes, I DO believe that he now believes in God.

I firmly believe in God, and my religion and my spirituality are not threatened by any one else’s disbelief, or anyone else’s pretense of belief while they behave in abusive ways, claiming to be a believer.

I AM very accepting of another’s beliefs, spirituality, or lack of belief or spirituality. While my belief system is basically Christian, I also frequently read from the sacred writings of other beloief systems and philosophers as well, as I think there is great UNIVERSAL wisdom in the writings of many belief systems and cultures totally aside from any “religious” beliefs.

Most religious or sacred writings also have a moral component to guide the readers in a healthy and caring life. Even the myths of Greece and Rome had some lessons for humanity.

We have great diversity here at LF and no one is blasted for their beliefs or trying to cram them down someone else’s throat. The spiritual component to healing is accepted by many of us here, even if there is no religious attachment or belief, so if your belief is that there is no spirituality of any kind or religious connections to healing, you are quite welcome to believe that. I doubt that anyone will flame you for your lack of belief. If someone posts something you find generally offensive, there is the “report abusive comment” link and all you have to do is to click on it.

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