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By | June 6, 2012 91 Comments

‘He is a liar of the first order’ man says about his son

Jim Zebranek Jr. stole $800,000 from his father and fled to Panama, while his father scrambled to pay the bills on his retirement condo. It was just one incident in a lifetime of lies and deceit.

Read $800,000 rift divides father and son, on TampaBay.com.

Link supplied by a Lovefraud reader.


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Ox Drover

I’m just surprised that Jim didn’t give his dad a nice shot of insulin and then old man would have been found dead of inadvertent over dose of insulin….then old Jim wouldn’t have had to worry about Daddy filing fraud charges against him.

I feel sorry for his father. His brother obviously doesn’t get it, or doesn’t want to admit that his brother is a monster. I only hope that the surviving sib will be willing to help dad out because it looks like he will need it.

Doug, you could have a career tracking down money like this…unfortunately I bet 99.9% of all that 800K is gone to the wind.

G1S

This sounds like something my family Ps would say:

“I’m innocent,” Zebranek said at a recent hearing in Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Court. “And I had no idea that this could happen to me, that my own father could accuse me of a felony that he knows, or should know, is completely false, because of his own senility.”

darwinsmom

that story has spath writtin all over it! What a wreck of a life trail that spath leaves behind him.

christine777

I was almost sucked into that trail. That man is crazier than a shithouse rat!!!

Ox Drover

Yep, that is SOOOOOO typical of psychopaths. Accusing his father of being senile when I bet the paper traill shows totally that he is a thief wihout conscience.

The poor old dad will never get back a centavo I am sure but I do hope the son goes to prison for a long time, but the law is not fair on a lot of these “white collar” crimes.

The old man seems pretty rational to me.

christine777

I met his mother once. That poor woman was so nervous and traumatized!

Truthspeak

Excellent article, though it makes me nearly physically ill. When it comes to money, people do some insane stuff, and I often wonder how long it would have taken for me to have suffered some sort of “accident” or “sudden illness.” Nothing surprises me, anymore, though it still has the ability to sicken me.

breckgirl

I am sure Fidelity is going to be making it up to the father to some degree. They have a fiduciary responsibility to ensure the documents presented are what the son purported them to be. A simple phone call to the doctor would have cleared it all up.

That is where I bet the father will find his financial solution. Any good attorney would probably be willing to take this up for him as if they got it all back and walked away with 1/3 – the father certainly will be better off with over $450,000 than the $2,000 he was left….

And Oxy – I had to laugh at your first post because of course – the son already had one dead body to his credit – what concern would a second “accidental” death be…

Truthspeak

TO clarify the Bank’s responsibilities: according to Federal Banking Law, since a monthly account statement was sent to the Trust-owner, he had a period of time (30-60 days) to contest or dispute any withdrawals, drafts, etc. If the victim did not file a dispute in the alotted time, the Bank is not legally responsible for any part in the victim being defrauded.

How would I possibly know this? This is an ugly truth because the exspath forged over $75,000 in checks from my personal investment account – and, the bank processed them, even though he not only forged MY signature (obviously so), but he also wrote HIS OWN singature on my drafts, and they were STILL processed.

I have NO LEGAL REMEDY, according to any Civil attorney, and since the exspath has committed a Federal Crime, it’s up to the District Attorney to choose whether or not my case merits attention and the exspath warrants an arrest.

So goes it…..the inhuman people get what they want, and face NO consequences for their actions.

On a lighter note:
There once was a man from Nantucket,
Who’s…..nevermind

breckgirl

UGH – Truthspeak that is completely awful. I am so sorry and wow – I would never have imagined but of course the too big to fail banks and the political class are full of “snakes in suits” so of course they have inured themselves to consequences.

You would think the man being in the hospital might alleviate that issue as how could he receive notice? They truly do have a fiduciary responsibility in my opinion to ensure that the doctor’s signature is valid and that the papers are legit.

Truthspeak

Breckgirl, the total amount that I lost through coersion or outright forgeries amounts to just about 300,000 – NONE of which I will ever see, again.

“You would think the man being in the hospital might alleviate that issue as how could he receive notice? They truly do have a fiduciary responsibility in my opinion to ensure that the doctor’s signature is valid and that the papers are legit.”

Oh, in a moral/ethical world, this WOULD be an issue! But, Laws are absolutely not always for the benefit of the victims. Most Banking Laws protect the banking institutions and NOT the clients/customers. The bank is not responsible whether I ever SEE my account statements – they sent them, I didn’t file a dispute, and that’s the end of the story. The Bank is not concerned whether the exspath intercepted them, or not, and their fiduciary responsibility ended the day that the statement was printed, and mailed.

What should happen in my case? I would like to see the exspath in a Federal Prison, and a lifetime Judgement that he would have to pay me for the rest of my natural life. Nothing is going to happen, however. And, that’s the hard truth of it. Not one consequence or even ramification.

The worst that will happen to that rat-shit, gimp-suit-wearing, theiving, conniving jackass is that he’ll have a finger wagged in his face and be told that he was one naughty boy and that he shouldn’t EVER do such a thing, again.

Now…..will someone please finish that stupid limerick that I started? (giggle)

Truthspeak

At first count, I believed the amount that I lost to be about 250K, but I kept forgetting to add up weird inherited funds – I mean really odd payments that came from one of my parent’s relatives.

At any rate, even if it were only $5, when someone relieves another human being of what is rightfully their private funds, it’s wicked.

At first, it cut me to the quick to realize that the exspath set me up for my money for a long-assed-con. Once the facts and truths set in, it just became despicable.

Oh, well…….onward and onward!

strongawoman

There once was a man from nantucket
Had a spath and decided to chuck it
Said get thee behind me
Don’t you blind me or slime me
That clever ole guy from Nantucket.

…..and no f words Truthspeak

strongawoman

Truth,

300 thousand? What????

I’m currently paying debts of 15000. Pounds that is. And I am hopping mad …..I’ll do it though. And he will still be scratching around in the dirt.

Sigh. I had idiot fool tattoed on my forehead

Note to self: I will not lay down and be a doormat EVER again

heartbrokenmom

I am new to this blog and new to realizing I raised a sociopath. I have looked and looked for the right place to comment, but none of the stories seem to be about parents who want to do the right thing. They all seem to be about spouse or girlfriends trying to escape. I have so many questions. As a parent, how do you escape? Do you just give up on your son? He is 26 years old and we have known something was wrong ever since he was in high school. He has spent his entire life lying to us, even about trivial things that don’t matter. He has been very secretive about many things. He has stolen money from us over and over. It took him 6 years to get through college, but he finally made. In the meantime, he was also caught steeling from another student in college, but somehow got out of it. His dad and I have tried to look back and see what we should have done differently. We are together on this and do not feel we were a disfunctional family. Of course we have had arguments throughout our marriage, but nothing ever violent. Our son agreed to counseling a couple of years ago, and for a time, he seemed better. We prayed so hard that he had turned a corner and just needed to grow up. We were living in a fantasy world. He visited us for Christmas and a few days after he left, his dad discovered a missing blank check and $300 gone. When the check cleared, it was for his rent to the tune of $1,200! He had also lied to us about how much his monthly rent is. He does have a job, but no concept of how to budget his money. He feels entitled to the good things in life without having to work for them. He has even admitted to me that he has no real feelings for anyone. He doesn’t feel sadness or remorse or guilt. He knows the right thing to say at the right time. Everyone likes him, but everyone also knows he is a total liar. He doesn’t even care about that. He says everyone lies. Can he even stop the lying and steeling if he wanted to? And if not, what is my responsibility as his mother? There seems to be no medication, no therapy for people like him. For us, his mother, father, and sister to survive, I feel we need to push him out of our lives completely. However, if he has no control over his actions, is it right to kick him to the curb? In tough love, one hopes he will pick himself up and realize he has to be responsible for himself, but in my heart of hearts, I don’t think he will do that. I think he will end up on the streets, in jail, or dead. He has a recently new girlfriend now, someone we have never met, and I just want to tell her to run as fast as she can. If anyone has any advice, I would love to hear from you.

Ox Drover

Dear Heartbrookenmom,

No, you are NOT ALONE AS A PARENT OF A PSYCHOPATH…and thhe ONLY way to cope with them, whether they are your lover, spouse, child, sibling, or parent is to go NO CONTACT with them.

My youngest biological son, Patrick, is in prison for murder. He comes up for parole consideration soon and I have hired an attorney to FIGHT HIS RELEASE FROM PRISON ON PAROLE. My mother (egg donor actually) hired an attorney to fight to get him parole…I have not spoken to her in 4 or 5 years…neither have my other biological son or my adopted son. I am her only child too.; She knew she had a choice, us or him, she chose him because he sucks up to her.

There are other parents here who are No Contact with their offspring, some are raising their grandkids because their children had kids and wouldn’t take care of them. Some have had to use their retirement funds to fight for custody of those kids in court.

No mother, you are not alone. There are others here who have parents who are psychopathic (Me for one) and siblings and other relatives.

Unfortunately, therapy does NOT HELP them but makes them actually worse according to those who study them, but you can’t feel “sorry for” them because they KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG, they just DO NOT CARE. My son is a murderer, he is actually proud of how violent his crime was. HHe knows right from wrong, but he gloats on doing wrong. It is called “duping delight”

I suggest that you read (first) Dr. Robert Hare’s book WITHOUT CONSCIENCE, then THE SOCIOPATH NEXT DOOR, and the and the articles here.

You are not alone there are many others who are in your position. Welcome to Love Fraud, and sorry you need to be here. God bless.

heartbrokenmom,
I’m so sorry about your son.
Nothing you do for him will help him. In fact, the more you do for him, the worse he will get. These people are parasites, they feel that the only things worth having are things they stole by duping or conning. And that includes your emotions. So don’t give him anything. No money, no responses, no emotions, and no attention.

You will have to go NC to accomplish this. It could be dangerous, they become vengeful when they aren’t getting what they want. Yet, giving them what they want isn’t much safer, it’s like living with a poisonous snake.

Stick around and read read read about spaths because you will have to really educate yourself in order to handle him correctly.

Read the gray rock article, I think it might be useful to you.
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2012/02/10/the-gray-rock-method-of-dealing-with-psychopaths/

KatyDid

HeartBrokenMom
I am so sorry for you to be going through this. I wish I could say I didn’t understand. But I do.

You love him. So harsh words are hard to read, vitriolic, missing compassion. But they also carry truths that you will eventually have to face.

At this point, I’d like to just validate your pain. In spite of your best efforts, your son doesn’t have the values and character you wished for him. He’s not trustworthy. And I think that’s the place you start. Accept that he’s not trustworthy. And put some boundries around that. No more visits /access to your home/possessions.

And just as when he was a child, if he stole a candy bar, you’d make him take responsibility… you need to do the same with the stolen check. I’d say the cash too, but you can’t prove that even though you know it. You need to prosecute him for the forged check. You need to do this to get his crime on record b/c 1) letting him get away with it is teaching him/empowering him that he can steal. 2) you also have a responsibility to the community, getting him legally processed is one way to notify others that he is not trustworthy. he needs to be on the radar of law enforcement.

Otherwise…
This is just the way life goes sometimes. Heartbreak. You can’t fix him. And at this point, you don’t have that power. as sad as I am to write this, you need to let him go and focus on yourself. Self care and self responsibility for yourself is all you can do. He’s no longer your child to parent. He choses his life path. You need to focus on your life path, and make sure you hold to healthy boundries to limit his hurtful behaviors.

All my best,
Katy

MiLo

Dear Heartbrokenmom ~

I am so sorry you had to find your way here, but PLEASE know you are NOT ALONE and above all IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT.

I am the mother of a sociopath. She is 32 years old and like your son, she started showing signs in her high school years. She also lies about EVERYTHING, yes even the trivial, mundane things, EVERYTHING. She stole from us, her grandparents and brothers. When she could not physically take money or things she moved on to elaborate scams or cons to get what she wanted. She attended college at our expense, but never graduated. Instead she got married and moved to another state, where she managed to not only build up quite a criminal record, because the stealing and con games will not stop with just family, but will escalate to society in general. When she came “home” two years later, she had a child that was not her husband’s, but rather someone who was incarerated right after the baby was born for the next 8 years for armed robbery and kidnapping.

Again, because we were her parents and believed in unconditional love and believed the birth of her son was her “turning point” (that’s is what she said), we welcomed her and our grandson with open arms and pocketbooks.

Long story short, it’s 12 years later, we have spent the last 12 years raising our grandson, who she abused and neglected and rejected over and over. We have depleted our retirement fund, our life savings in legal costs to keep him safe and with us. Although she does not want him or even want to be part of his life, she gets great pleasure in seeing us suffer.

Christmas her “boyfriend”, father of her 2nd child, called and told our grandson he had sent him a card with money in it for Christmas. Today, 1/11 he received the card, no money, just a small gift card that you get free when you buy video games. She had taken the money out of the card, used it, then replaced it with the gift card and just mailed it. Her own son !!!!! The boyfriend must keep everything locked up in a safe, including his car keys because she steals everything from him. She has wrecked his car after stealing it.

She is currently on two years probation for prostitution and drug charges.

I understand how hard the concept of No Contact is for a mother and father that love their child, I really do. But, read on here, see our stories like “Christmas Future” because unfortunately there is no magic cure, no therapy, no drugs that are going to help. Unfortunately, your heart will be broken again and again. If you are not yet ready for No Contact, I STRONGLY recommend reading the gray rock article that Sky recommended and wrote BTW. It saved my life, it works. Because of court ordered visitation, I could not go NC with my daughter so I reluctantly tried gray rock and it saved my sanity.

Again, so sorry you are one of us, but this is a great place to get help and just to vent. I’m afraid that is what I just did, some venting.

Ox Drover

Dear Heartbrokenmom,

Milo is one of our “experts” on dealing with a psychopathic child…and I am FORTUNATE that mine is in prison and does NOT have any children…there are also others here who are distressed grandmother who is not allowed to see her grandchildren and other mothers, Witsend doesn’t post heere much any more, her son is finally 18 and when she came here he was 16 and she was trying desperately to get some help from the school to “save” her son.

We’ve had other posters here with kids as young as 12 that they were afraid to go to sleep at night in the same house with the child, afraid the kid would burn the house down on their head as they slept. YOu are NOT ALONE in this pain.

I am a retired Registered Nurse Practitioner and worked in in patient settings with kids for several years and I saw kids worse than mine (mine is a killer in prison for cold blooded murder) yet it took me a long time to finally realize that there was NO SAVING MY SON, no matter now much I loved him or tried to help him or how much he sounded sincere, he was only conning me until he got what he wanted. Unfortunately, now what he wants is my life because I turned him in to the police for robbing our friends, and because if I don’t die before my mother does, he inherits NOTHING…and he believes he is entitled to everything my family has worked for for generations. That sense of ENTITLEMENT that the psychopath has. No matter how much you give them or what you do, they think they are entitled to more, without any consequences for their behavior or bad choices, and they believe that you must “forgive” them for any and every thing, but they will hold a grudge against you for whatever they think you did to bring them to task for what they did to you. If they steal from you, and you call the police, then YOU are the problem, not what they stole or that they stole. They take responsibility for nothing.

Learning about psychopaths is a start…then putting it into practice will give you strength and sanity, but it hurts, but separating that baby you loved and the adult you fear is important in allowing you to protect yourself.

Heartbrokenmom,
I believe that you should write off the monetary losses and simply not respond to it. Turning him in and attempting to prosecute him, seems like the right thing to do because you want him to face consequences and take responsibility for his action.

It won’t work. Spaths don’t think the way we do. They pervert everything. The only thing that will happen in his mind, is he will blame YOU for his problems, it will JUSTIFY in his mind, stealing your money. He will say you deserved it for being so mean to him. With a spath, it doesn’t matter that he attacked you first, they turn everything 180° around and they believe their lies and justifications. It also justifies further attacks, which WILL come because he wants to keep the drama going.

There is another reason it doesn’t work. They LIKE it when we retaliate. They like it when we engage them. Turning him in, tells him that he hurt you and that is the response he wanted. He wanted to see and to know that he could hurt you and make you react.

That is why we must not react. The money you lost is an injustice but it can be replaced. Removing him from your life, quietly, quickly and with as little drama as possible, is priceless. I’m sorry, I know it hurts but you can’t show it. He wants to feed off your pain. That’s what they all want.

Hi Milo,
nice to see you. hope everything is peaceful in your life.

Ox Drover

Heartbrokenmom,

You can go to the bank and report the check stolen and tell them who you think took it, and let the bank prosecute him. They will have to give you the money back since the signature was forged. In this instance I disagree with Sky, I would go ahead and get my money back. If he goes to jail over it (probably won’t, will probably get probation, at least you will have proof for your friends and family of WHY you cut junior out of your life) so be it…let him face the consequences.

The other option is to do like Sky suggested and just tell him, NO MAS, NO MORE, IT’S OVER, WE’RE DONE, GO AWAY, DON’T COME BACK.

MiLo

Hi there SKY….

You know, things are pretty peaceful here at the Milo homestead.

I feel such a sense of relief and empowerment ever since the daughter’s last royal screw up. I don’t have to fear her anymore.

I am letting Grand make his own decisions on any kind of a relationship he wants with her and the court allows that. I have been honest with him that I no longer want to be part of her life, but it is OK if he chooses to. As of right now, he refuses to even talk with her, but does want to see his little sis from time to time. His little sis’s dad is willing to make that happen WITHOUT the spath.

Grand is doing much, much better. He is doing well academically, is in several clubs at school and is playing basketball. He has a new counselor, a young guy who’s therapy is done while playing video games, playing basketball, mixing in fun activities with talking and it seems to be working.

I read on LF, but only post now when there are things I really feel I can add some insight and possibly help with. I still don’t know where I would be if it were not for people like you.

Take care

Ox Drover

Milo, I am so glad things are going well for you and that Grand is making his own decisions about his egg donor. That right there gives him some empowerment. Instead of just letting her walk all over him and pretending it didn’t happen, HE gets to determine if there is any interaction or not. The ability to go NC is an empowerment for us all and ultimately the ONLY POWER we have were psychopaths are concerned.

I read something today that I thought applied to P’s

When I shut my mouth and turn my back to walk away,
it doesn’t mean you’ve won.
It means your stupid ass isn’t worth any more of my time.

I thought that was PRETTY PROFOUND when you think about it in terms of the psychopaths and NC

MiLo

Oh, Oxy ~

That is one that I have to copy down and keep for later use. I would post it on the fridge, but I’m afraid Grand might use it at school. lol He is already in trouble for calling someone a dumading – it’s kind of stupid ass in Amish.

Wow, great news, MiLo! So good to hear it.

Yes, I agree, we would all be so lost without each other.

heartbrokenmom

I am overwhelmed with the number of responses I have received from my post. I cannot thank you enough! Even though the news is so bad, it helps to know I am not losing my mind. It helps to read everything you have to say and to read of your experiences. I will read the books and articles you have recommended. My son has a way of turning my words around and his stories change constantly to make us think we are the ones in the wrong. I know this is not going to get better anytime soon, but knowing I can come here for support making me feel stronger. Thank you all.

KatyDid

heartbrokenmom
Regarding twisting your words around:

He’s not trustworthy means what HE SAYS isn’t trustworthy either. You’re being played. Easy to do b/c you are emotionally vested in your son. But, dear mom… he’s not emotionally vested in you. He’s out to get FROM you without caring how he makes you feel. So he is able to use your heart and your guilt against you. Know this: decent people work WITH you to be understood, they explain THEMSELVES. Try recording a conversation. Normal conversations are easy to follow. Does he answer the question you ask or does he answer with a question that changes the subject? (gobbledegook)

When someone tries to TELL me what I think, as opposed to ASKING me what I think, that’s a red flag of abuse. It means they are trying to manipulate my thoughts, they are not trying to understand/communicate. (the ol’ Jedi mind trick, done very well by abusers).

And yes, mom, your son is an abuser. What he does is not loving, kind, appreciative, or considerate. He is using/stealing/blaming/acting entitled/harming. So so sorry. Skylar gave a very good link above. You’ll regain your sanity and control by going Grey Rock. Be boring. Be very boring.

Best, Katy

MiLo

Heartbrokenmom ~

“turning my words around” – I compare any conversation to sticking your head in a blender – your words go in, are spun around, chopped up and spit back out at you completely different than when they went in.

KatyDid

MiLo
I’ve seen it called word salad, and mirroring. But that didn’t quite describe it for me when my words were fed back to me, but with entirely different meanings, and not the ones in the dictionary. So I started saying “you have to make sense to me or I can’t hear you.” Which guaranteed the phone would be slammed down. But. As I figured it, I got heard.

Am so glad to read of progress with your grandson, and some resolution to the problem with your daughter. You are such an inspiration to me.

MiLo

Hi Katy ~

Glad to see you around and to “hear” things seem a bit more settled for you too.

Thank you for your kind thoughts on Grand. With my daughter, I think it was just a matter of “enough rope”. I feel confident that anything she does or says will never be looked at seriously by a court again and this time her mask slipped right in front of Grand. He is at the age and feels secure enough, in his home here with us, that he is able to handle the rejection without turning it inward. What a blessing…..

The word salad, mirroring, I like “verbal vomit”, I think that about sums it up.

You take care.

Truthspeak

HeartbrokenMom, I am SO sorry for your pain and welcome to LoveFraud.

There are many, many readers and posters on this site that understand what you’re experiencing with your son. I’m another one who has had to accept the truths about my eldest son – he was diagnosed Borderline Personality Disorder Cluster B (the most volatile of all borderlines) and he is a sociopath.

No parent that I’ve ever known in my lifetime brought a child into this world with the expectation that their offspring would be a predator. No parent wants this as their child, and no parent wants this FOR their child. We each peg our own hopes, dreams, and aspirations on our children to develop into healthy, successful, and content adults. Sometimes, this just isn’t going to happen.

What to do? Even if there are grandchildren involved, the only thing that I could do was to walk away and grieve over the extraordinarily beautiful infant and toddler that I recall. The man that my son became is a monster – pure and simple. To pretend that he is anything else would be an exercise in denial and enabling, and I cannot afford to pay the price tag of that particular item.

It’s no easy task to accopmlish, HeartbrokenMom. Losing a child to a sudden traumatic passing or illness is one thing. But, we are simply not equipped to process the loss of a child who deliberately, maliciously, and intentionally lies, betrays, steals, and abuses – this is NOT whom we gave birth to! And, it’s very, very painful and difficult to process.

I would strongly urge you to consider engaging in strong counseling therapy – not with the false hope of “fixing” junior, but to help you process this incredibly painful grief and to set strict boundaries. This is not the kind of thing that human beings are generally equipped to do, alone.

Keep reading, keep posting, keep venting, and I would also suggest going “No Contact.” No communication of any type. Today – the person that I am, today – I would probably consider pressing charges of theft and forgery and all DNA ties be damned! There is no excuse sufficient for STEALING, and you can bet that he’s stolen from others if he’s comfortable enough stealing a total of $1500.00 from his own parents. He’s a criminal, and he’s toxic.

Brightest and most comforting blessings to you

Truthspeak

Strongawoman…I just now saw your hilarious limerick! LOL!!! 😀

heartbrokenmom

Another question…How do I respond to people who ask about my son? How is he? What’s he up to these days? I couldn’t sleep at all last night. My mind was whirling. I have ordered the books and my husband wants to read them as well. I had him read this blog last night. I worry about him caving at some time. He is still very upset right now, because the lasted crime is so recent, but this is not the first time our son has stolen from us. In the last six years, we have added up he has stolen over $6,000 from us. My husband comes from divorced parents, and even though he has a good relationship with his dad now, he was not available to him for many years. My husband keeps saying right now he can go NC, but he doesn’t know if he can do it forever. He keeps saying, “He’s still my son.” This scares me. We have promised each other if we are tempted to have contact, we will do nothing without speaking to each other first. I am talking to him now about having a security system installed. Our son knows our schedule and knows when we are not home. I’ve no doubt he will drive the 3 hrs. to steel from us.

MiLo

Heartbrokenmom ~

Those are the hard questions. I usually tell people that ask about my daughter that I am currently not in contact with her, she has done some things that I can no longer accept. It all depends on who is asking, casual or good friends and/or relatives as to how much information I share.

I believe it is often the case that parents are not totally on the exact same page as far as something as serious as NC. It is such a personal decision that is never taken lightly, but at the same time (IMO) I think it is important to stand united. That is why if one or both feel uncomfortable with it, try the gray rock technique. I think you must ask yourselves, when is enough really enough. Can I keep living a life where my own son is stealing from me and continually breaking my heart? Do I really want to watch as he causes pain and havoc in other people’s lives? Where do I draw that line in the sand?

I think a security system is a good idea, we have one. We have also put local law enforcement agencies on alert to keep an eye on our home at times we are gone and have given them descriptions of cars she may be driving. You may also want to do that.

The more knowledge you get on this behavior, the more similar stories you read, the better equipped you will be to make these decisions.

The best to both of you. Keep asking questions and reading answers. You will find that on LF not all agree on how things should be handled and that is a good thing because you can come away with a variety of possible solutions.

strongawoman

Truthy, Haha…..glad it made you giggle!!

Truthspeak

HearbrokenMom, when people ask about my eldest son, I simply respond, “I haven’t heard from him, lately.” END the discussion, right there. It’s none of their business and telling people about what your son has done and that he fits the profile of a sociopath only feeds their Drama/Trauma Monkey. It’s nobody’s business.

I agree with MiLo that a security system is a good idea, and that No Contact is a personal thing – no two people arrive at that difficult decision at the same time, nor in the same way. You’ll decide what is best for you.

Keep reading, keep posting, and remember that you are not responsible for the choices of your adult child. You’re not. You did the best that you could to raise him up to be a responsible adult, and he’s made other choices.

“Still my son” is not a good enough reason to break No Contact, either. The only thing that my son will issue from the hole in his face is deception, and I hate that this is a fact, but it is irrefutable. I “wish” that he were not disordered, I really do. But, he is. And, he’s dangerous.

No parent wants to accept these hard, cold, ugly truths, HeartbrokenMom – nobody. And, it may be an option to seek the help of a counselor so that you and your husband can come to terms with this.

Gentle hugs to you and brightest blessings

Heartbrokenmom,
I’m glad you got a security system. I would advise that you spare no expense, especially in hidden video and audio surveillance, inside and out.

Not only will this help you get him out of your life, but it will help you KEEP him out. I recorded some conversations with my spath and when I felt like I was beginning do doubt myself with NC, I simply listened to the recordings and felt the revulsion all over again. It worked amazingly well in helping me with my resolve.

If he breaks in to steal again, you will have evidence that can also assist you in getting a restraining or protection order. And also, perhaps, evidence to help prosecute the previous crimes as well.

I still don’t think you should prosecute because I’m convinced, IT IS WHAT HE WANTS. Spaths are very strange creatures and they create situations that will cause themselves problems because they seem to like punishment. Punishment is another form of attention.

Because spaths see punishment as “vengeance”, they think they won when you seek vengeance against them. It’s part of their game and gaming is ALL they understand.

My policy is never give the spath what he wants, give him what he doesn’t expect. He doesn’t expect you to cut off contact forever. It’s the one thing, they can’t stand. IF there was ever any hope for “getting through” to him (thought I don’t believe there is) it would be by going NC.

Truthspeak

Skylar, good point about pressing charges, but the only reason that I would follow through with that would be to prevent my son from doing it to someone else and not for the sake of vengeance. Of course, as you pointed out, spaths do not see “consequences” as they are and choose, instead, to see it as an act of “getting even.” (sigh)

Very sad, isn’t it? UGH….

Brightest blessings

Truthy,
I know, it is a tough decision, because NOT prosecuting makes them think you are “weak” and that they “got away with it.”

The problem is that the parents, particularly the mother, are in a special position. They are the spath’s main targets of hatred and vengeance. This, then plays into the spath’s hands.

If he steals from a stranger and they prosecute, it has a different affect than when he steals from someone who “loves” him.

I agree that consequences should come, but it shouldn’t be something the spath expects because it won’t “shock” him. Shock and awe is the weapon they use against us, and we should use it back on them.

BTW, did you hear about the school shooting yesterday?
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taft-shooting-20130111,0,5226940,full.story

heartbrokenmom

I saw my mom live and die with alzheimers, and what it did to my dad. Thought that would be the worst thing I would ever go through. I was wrong. I hate to admit, I am afraid of my son. My husband thinks that he will lie to us with his last breath and he will steal our last dime, but he doesn’t believe he would ever hurt us. I think if he gets desparate enough, he will. Such a waste of a life.

Ox Drover

heartbroken mom,

Your husband thinking your son will lie, steal etc but NEVER HURT YOU??? Well let me tell you about my son.

He started being a thief at 11, but really got into it “full time” at 15, and continued up to armed robbery by the time he was 18, invading a home, tying the people up at gun point, and taking everything they owned.

He got caught, did 2 years of a 5 yr sentence, then got out. My husband and I had invited him to come back home to live. But he KNEW that if he got into trouble we would turn him in to the police. So he convinced my husband’s niece who wasn’t all that bright that he was mistreated by his parents who were so mean to him and didn’t understand a sensitive boy like him…well within 5 months he had a credit card scam going (one that was DOOMED to fail and be discovered WHO had done it) and the little girl who was involved with him in it (it was her grandfather’s cards) told her family that my son was the one who had run up the thousands of dollars of false bills on it, so he decided to kill her.

Talked it over at length with his buddies, all ex convicts of course, as he no longer had any “good” friends, and so he lured her out into the boondocks, she was walking ahead of him, and he called her name so she would turn around in time to see the gun before he pulled the trigger twice shooting her in the head.

I NEVER IN MY WILDEST DREAMS thought for one minute that he could KILL. This was a kid who was so smart he had been in every gifted and talented class in school, this was a kid who could recite the Bible from Genesis to Revelation word for word.

A MURDERER? A KILLER? NO, not in a million years, but he did. Of course he lied to us when he called on the phone and when we went to visit him. Said he did not kill her. After nearly 2 years he went to trial, and I talked to his attorney and realized that YES HE WAS GUILTY, but there had to be more to it than him just being a KILLER…surely there was some reason…so I stayed “supportive’ (read: sent money and went to visit when I could since he was out of state where I lived) as time went on, I realized that Yes, he truly was a killer…but then, on a visit to him, when hee wanted me to do something I didn’t want to do. I don’t remember what now, I just remember him going “but Mommmmm, what would Jezus dooooo?” and when I kept saying NO, in a FLASH, his face changed into the FACE OF SATAN is the best way I can describe it. His eyes got dark and piercing and he said “if you knew the truth about my crime you wouldn’t like me so much, it is worse than the cops even know”

I was stunned. His brother D was stunned. But I calmly answered, Well, Patrick, what could be worse than just putting a gun to a girl’s head and pulling the trigger? Did you torture her first, rape her first, burn her with cigarettes? What could be worse than just blowing her brains out?”

Then in another FLASH his face went back to being “normal” and he went back to the “but Mommmmmmm, what would jezus do?”

Robert Hare describes this in his book “Without Conscience” and says that the left side of their braiin and the right side of the brain don’t communicate and they don’t “get it” that this kind of threat (and that is what I think it was was a threat because his begging didn’t work) isn’t something that we forget in one second like they do. We retain it.

That was the last time I saw my son. Because I took him out of my will, but because of a trust, if I were to die BEFORE my maternal DNA donor, he WOULD inherit from the family trust, but if I died AFTER she died, then he would get nothing, so he sent one of his buddies to come to kill me, promising him of course money…fortunately, I found out about the plot, ran, and lived in hiding until the man exposed himself and went to prison for trying to kill my other son C.

So tell your husband, read him this, that YES, YOUR SON CAN TRY TO HURT YOU. If he is hard up enough for money, killing you both might be a way for him to think he could get some. I strongly suggest that you write a will leaving him out entirely and make sure he knows it…that he will NEVER gain anything by your deaths. Not one cent profit in your deaths.

The sense of ENTITLEMENT, the feeling that they DESERVE everything you have worked for your entire life is beyond belief.

That, plus revenge. I turned my son into the police for a robbery when he was 17, hoping it would “shock” him into straightening up…but it didn’t. All it did was make him hate me for “betraying” him…the same way Jessica Witt betrayed him by turning him in. She had to die for betraying him, I have to die, hopefully before my egg donor does so that he can inherit, but if not before her, then for disinheriting him and for betraying him.

Get a restraining order for your “son” and tell your husband that the “son” you loved and bore is DEAD, gone, and the MAN THAT KEEPS STEALING FROM YOU is a stranger. Not the boy you loved.

I actually had a “memorial service” for my “son” and any photos of him past about age 12 or 13 I burned, and kept only those photos of him as a young boy, the boy I loved, who is dead now.

When people asked about him when we moved back up here to our family’s community, we would liee and say “he lives in Texas and works for the State of Texas, and he doesn’t get up much, but we go visit him” Alll technically true statements. He did have a job in the prison and he didn’t get out to visit much, and we did go visit him. But it was a lie, it was to deceive our extended family of cousins and neighbors to keep them from knowing my son was a criminal.

Now, I tell the truth…if it is someone that I have a relationship with of any kind, but if it is someone just casually asking when they meet me “Oh, how many kids do you have? I answer three boys. Two biological and one adopted, but no grandkids.”

But I am no longer bearing the burden of SHAME for what my son does or has become….the burden of SHAME for him is HIS. HE made the choices, not me.

If it is someone you feel that you need to be honest with about your son, just tell them. “We are very disappointed in “Josh,” he has become a thief and stolen from us and so we don’t have any contact with him any more.”

Sometimes people will say “Oh, but he is your sonnnn, you can’t give up on him…..”

When they do that, I respond with something along this line, “well, we have made the decision not to have any contact with Patrick after much thought and prayer and the decision is ours to make and ours alone.”

But tell your husband not to think that it is impossible for your son to hurt you, or others. I never ever thought mine would either, but I was proven VERY VERY wrong. I am sure that ADAM LANZA’S mother didn’t think her son would hurt anyone either. It cost her her life and the lives of 26 others, including her son.

heartbrokenmom

Ox Drover,

Thank you for sharing your experiences and your wisdom in this matter. I will definitely share this with my husband. I am sorry that you have been through the same things we are experiencing now. We are in the middle of a nightmare. I do feel like we have had a death in the family. Even though we have told him we want nothing more to do with him, I’m sure he doesn’t believe it yet. When it sinks in is when the trouble will start. I am hoping my husband and myself will both have had the time to prepare ourselves with knowledge before that time comes. I am afraid when we change our wills, and we will, and we let him know of the changes, he will focus on his sister. I don’t want her harmed. Right now, he knows she doesn’t have anything of value for him. She, two years younger than he, has been telling us since they were in high school that he has problems. She loves him and still wants to believe there could be help for him. I am going to focus on getting counselling for her, my husband, and myself. I have to let my husband absorb this at his own pace, but I know he will get there. I am thankful for the support and knowledge LF is giving me. Thank you all.

KatyDid

heartbrokenmom
I echo Oxy’s message to you. Your son has already TOLD you that he’s ENTITLED to whatever he wants of your assets. You are a SOURCE of assets, and they are HIS assets, and HE will take them whenever he wants. You LET him before, and if you don’t report him this time, you LET him again.

If you change your wills, and yes I think you should b/c any assets will be used to harm others, I do NOT think you should tell him or your daughter (bc she would tell him). BUT you should tell whoever is your executor.

It is a mistake to think there is line they won’t cross. There isn’t. Again I say to you, YOU are connected to HIM, but HE has NO ATTACHMENT to you except as a exploitator of your love. Please don’t minimize the seriousness of your situation, don’t excuse it or trivialize it. Denial for YOU and YOUR husband and your daughter can and often is DEADLY.

So so so sorry for your heartache, but you need to get real and protect yourself or you will end up in the paper as one of those tragedies, and then where will you be for your daughter???

It is GRIEF that he does not have a worthy FUTURE, but you can predict the outcome of not getting yourselves into acceptance of TRUTH asap. You MUST see him for what he is, not for what you WISHED he would be.

All my best,
Katy

Ox Drover

Dear heartbrokenmom,

Yes, we have to absorb it at our own pace. When a family is SPLIT though it is difficult. My own egg donor has taken Patrick’s side, since he was 15 and she is a hard core ENABLER of him…that is our family legacy of dysfunction, enabling the family bad boy. Now that my egg donor’s brother is dead, (I called him Uncle Monster) Patrick fills that role in the family dynamics and she “protects” him from me as much as she can…it has gone on for generations, not just this one. It has only stopped with me, and my other sons.

It took me decades to accept the truth, because the truth was so painful. I KNEW the truth, but I didn’t want to accept it. I was in denial.

I think having some counseling for your family is good, but you must find a counselor that “gets it” about a psychopath–there are some who DO NOT get it and think that “there is good in everyone” and there “is always a way to help people” because there are SOME people there is NO GOOD in, and that cannot be helped except by NO CONTACT.

Of course your son will attack his sister, will try to make her think he has been unjustly treated by you and your husband, and she must be educated about psychopaths and about her brother iin particular. My oldest biological son was conned by his brother for a long time until his brother’s buddy tried to kill son C. THEN and only then did he realize how dangerous his brother was/is. So sometimes it takes something pretty dramatic to convince a family member about a psychopath.

I’m glad that your husband is open to reading or being read to from this site, and from the books. Some people aren’t open to learning and there isn’t anything you can do about it. Good luck and keep on reading. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER and we must take back our power. God bless.

heartbrokenmom

katydid
I feel another sleepless night coming on, but I appreciate you telling it like it is. I am finally “getting it”…I will read these blogs over and over so as not to weaken. You have survived and so will I.

heartbrokenmom,
He will come back to you and act sorry. He’ll be really, really good at it. You will want to believe him. Don’t.

When I was 20 years old, my spath borrowed 5thousand dollars and didn’t pay me back. I left him because I couldn’t be with someone like that, who didn’t even care about paying me 5 grand that he said he would. He found out where I was hiding from him and came begging me to take him back. I said, “no because you don’t pay what you owe.” He asked me, “you mean if I pay you the 5 thousand, you’ll get back together with me?” I wanted the 5 grand so I said, “yes.” Within a couple hours he had 5 thousand dollars for me. This from the man who couldn’t pay me for over a year.

After that, he learned how to maneuver around my boundaries. Yes, I left him a couple more times, but he knew how to manipulate me back each time. That’s what spaths do. They are amazingly good actors and can read us like books.

I expect that your son will be doing this when he realizes you have cut him off. My spath had me fooled for the next 20 plus years. Some of them can be very patient. I only got away when I realized that he was planning to be done with me and make it look like suicide. After I left him, I realized that he had been poisoning my food for most of 25 years. They have no limits and there is NOTHING they won’t do, if they think they will get away with it.

They all use various versions of the same 3 tricks to manipulate our emotions: Charm, Pity and Rage. It’s what infants do. Watch for it.

KatyDid

heartbrokenmom
Sleepless nights yep, Know all about those. I’d pray myself to sleep, and those were the times God talked to me. I kept a notebook by my bed and wrote the first thing I thought of the next morning. Strange you might think, but I did have some wonderful messages. God is how I survived it. Facing TRUTH is REALLY hard to do. I tried SO HARD to be wrong. I WANTED to be wrong. But GOD said if I didn’t listen, the message was going to get harder to ignore. And I already hurt enough. I’d go to bed and pray, God, OPen my eyes to the truth and give me the strength to bear it. And he did.

Best, Katy

heartbrokenmom

Skylar, I am going to put your first paragraph on my fridge and read it over and over and over. And when I feel weak, I’m going to read it agin. KatyDid, I will continue to pray. I have prayed for years that God would fix my son. Now I will pray for him to give me, my husband, and daughter the strength to know this can not continue and we must go on alone.

God bless you all.

Ox Drover

Dear Heartbrokenmom,

Sometimes we pray for things that are not possible…but I have learned to not pray for specific things, but iinstead, to pray

God, you know what I need, I don’t know what I need or what is really the best thing, but I am going to trust that you do and that you will give me what I need, and then whatever happens, Ii will trust that is for the best.”

It is difficult for me to TRUST that God knows what I need and that sometimes when something “bad” happens *(or what appears to me at that moment as bad) I lose trust, but then a month or 6 months down the line, something GOOD happens that would NOT ave happened if the “bad” thing had not happened.

Just as a child may want to play in the street and YOU as a parent knows that it is dangerous so you make the child come play out of the street, but the kid doesn’t see the danger, so he is upset that you made him get out of the street. We can’t see what is ahead,, just like the kid can’t see that a car will be coming down the street…so we have to trust God to provide what we need, not necessarily what we WANT right that minute, or what WE think is best.

I recall when a man came to Jesus to heal his son Jesus asked the man “do you believe I can” and the man said “Yes, Lord, I believe.” but then the man said “Lord, help my unbelief.” The man knew Jesus wanted him to SAY hhe believed, but the man didn’t really believe Jesus could heal his son, but he said what he knew Jesus wanted to hear, but then he was HONEST AND said “Lord help my un-belief.”

Many times I must pray “Lord, help my unbelief.” Right now is one of those times as I battle the parole board, and battle my son’s grandmother and her attorney about him getting a parole, because I know if he gets out, there will be a “shoot out at the O’k corral” and I don’t want to have to kill my son, or have one of his brothers kill him.” I’ve done all I can to prepare for the parole hearing, hired the lawyer, gotten the letters, etc. and now it is up to God and the attorney. And frankly I am so afraid that I am sick, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. Ii feel like the time clock has been rewound back to the summer of 2007 when my son D and I sat in my RV parked on a friend’s lot at the lake, in hiding.

Now, I sit at my home, with a trained attack dog at my feet, and a security system and a gun on every flat surface in my home, because even though he isn’t out, as long as my egg donor is alive it is to his financial benefit to have me murdered so if I die before she does, he inherits.

So I am de-stressing to the best I can, taking care of myself spiritually, medically, mentally, and physically. I’ve decided to quit trying to get any more letters and just turn it over to the attorney with what I have and just pray that God will take care of the rest. I can’t let the fear and anxiety and stress over this kill me, or take away my peace. It isn’t worth living if I let him destroy my life, my health and my sanity. I KNOW that. So I’ve got to put back into practice what I know. It is a CONTINUAL process, not just a “one and done” situation.

Life is a journey, healing is a journey it is all about LEARNING, but also about DOING WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED.

Delores

Heartbrokenmom,

I am finally accepting that my daughter is one. I fought it for ten years and blamed her dad for influencing her but I am finished. She made up some lies to blame me for taking away the grandchildren. They are heartbroken and so are my husband and I. She does not care.

What everyone says about therapy making them worse is true. She has become an expert at her quest to destroy me and blame me the whole time. She does put my words in a blender and throw them back as my fault, even uses current disagreements to justify her past actions.

She is executor of my sister’s estate. I put up with her abuse and vengeance toward me for my sister’s sake but my sister passed away with me at her side on Jan 4th. I tried to help with the estate but it is not worth it. She is being secretive about the will so I printed it from my sister’s computer.

Now I am finished with her. She asked me to tell her she was a psychopath like her dad so she could cut me off forever. I declined as I wanted to save that privilege for myself. We will sell the house and move to Florida like we have wanted to for years. We only stayed for the grandchildren and she will not let us see them now.

I am in shock from my sister’s death and my daughter’s indifference to all of it. She teared up a couple of times and said she had on her niece hat then she cut it off like a faucet to change into her nurses hat or executor hat or spite mother hat. So true they wear many hats and have no soul.

She knows how to trigger me and get me to loose it and I have complied for the last time. Grey rock does not work when you see the devil in your daughter’s eyes…cold, calculating, vindictive indifference or downright disrespect and cruelty to my face.

I will be okay. I have no questions, no remorse, no doubts. My angry outbursts were to try to wake her up because she seems to be in a trance. The little girl I raised is not like that. She lied and sneaked and had some traits but she was my loving little girl and did not become full evil until she quit drinking, joined AA and moved in with her psychopath dad.

She moved away from him but she was gone from me ever since. Even when she let us see the children she did not want to see us. Then I do not know if I raised her anger threshold because she shunned her step-father who raised her on father’s day or she just got jealous of the fun the children had with us and we had with them. And I guess we will never know because nothing honest ever comes out of her mouth.

I worried so that she was confused, hypnotized, or had Stockholm syndrome. But she is gone to me and there is nothing I can to to help her. There is nothing I can do to protect myself except with NO CONTACT. She went NC with us and cut off the grandchildren in June “until further notice”. We were forced together by my sister’s illness in October and now I have lost my sister and my daughter has no sympathy. Now it is over. No normal person could do that. I do not go NC until the relationship is DEAD. The daughter that I raised and loved with all of my being is dead, replaced by an evil automaton.

My darling sister is dead and in an urn and my daughter is executor of the estate. I tried to help but I had to walk out. It is forced abuse with her in charge. I pray I can recover and keep in contact with my grandchildren somehow without her interference.

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