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By | September 24, 2009 164 Comments

If he walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, he’s a quack

I address this post mainly to my female audience because, in my experience, the pathology I’ll be discussing, while not exclusively male, is more often than not expressed by men against women.

I revisit here what I regard as an important relationship red flag: When you meet a man who seems to be “Mr. Perfect,” someone “you can’t find anything wrong with,” you need to take a good long pause; otherwise, trouble bodes.

Now I’m not talking about, or maligning, the experience of “great chemistry.” Great chemistry, even electric chemistry, where you hit it off instantly, is a good thing and sometimes a good omen.

But there’s an important difference between “great chemistry” versus the sense of having met and experienced “perfection.” The genuine Mr. Right, in other words, is a very different creature than Mr. Perfect, who almost always will be a quack.

There are a number of reasons for this. First, men perceived by the women they meet as “too good to be true” are often men with an agenda to be perceived as too good to be true. These men are often calculating narcissists or sociopaths for whom the game, the challenge, the principal goal, is to disarm their female [target] objects with their apparent, and compelling, perfection.

To advance their agenda these men may exhibit inordinately seductive qualities right from jump—inordinate levels, for instance, of charm, politeness, thoughtfulness, soliticousness, sacrifice and attentiveness (in a word, responsiveness).

But this isn’t a case of their being on their “best behavior,” as new partners normally are with each other; rather, it’s a case of their being on their best “contrived” behavior, their intent being to effect an impression of perfection as if they are cut from a different cloth—specifically, the cloth of male romantic perfection.

These men may want you to regard them as Princes heaven-sent; they may want you to feel that it took something like your lottery-like good fortune to have found them.

Many of them will be seeking the approbation of your social circle; they may want those around you to ask as with shaking heads, “Where did you find him?” “What planet did he come from?” “Oh my God, he’s like”¦perfect!

These men will often “groom” you not unlike how the sexual abuser grooms his victims—with promises of his special attentiveness, gratification and protectiveness. This exploitive strategy is extremely potent as it accesses deeply-held fantasies to be perfectly loved, protected and embraced.

Other LoveFraud columnists and astute posters have correctly noted that not all of these men are consciously operating as predators. While true, it’s also important not to minimize just how many of these men are, consciously, operating with predatory agendas.

In either case, these are not men who love, respect, or even like women. Rather, they use women for ego-gratifying and ego-masturbatory purposes. And just as the thrill of a masturbatury experience fades fast, so too does the thrill that women give such men fade with often startling, disorienting suddenness.

While this dynamic may or may not confuse the exploiter, it will surely confuse the unalert woman.

In their “grooming” process, these men will often pull out all the stops: they may, for instance, be the best, most attentive lovers you’ve ever had while all the while they’re not actually enjoying the sex because they’re not present; rather, they are watching themselves, and watching themselves with you, as if they’re porno aspirants determined to make a name for themselves, determined to stamp themselves (to legendize themselves, if you will) in your mind.

Many of these men are desperate to be the fantasy of their perfect selves–that is, the fantasy of themselves as special, unique, memorable. And so they tend parasitically (and compulsively) to seek cooperative, vulnerable hosts (such as you) as if to hold for them, store for them their slippery, empty gestures at immortality. (I intend to flesh this idea out in a separate post, recognizing the incompleteness of my explanation.)

We’ve discussed some of these concepts before, but another of them bears repeating: Narcissists, sociopaths and their like will chew you up for the temporary ego-gratifying nutrients you can supply them in the short-term; and then, like a piece of chewing gum from which they’ve extracted all the sugar, they’ll spit you out, devalue and discard you, now that you’ve lost your flavor (and thus use).

(This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW)


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Tilly

Sounds the perfect description of my last relationship with the psychopath…down to the T. And I mean PERFECT!! lol!

neveragain

Lots of powerful sentences here:
But this isn’t a case of their being on their “best behavior,” as new partners normally are with each other; rather, it’s a case of their being on their best “contrived” behavior,

HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!

These men will often “groom” you not unlike how the sexual abuser grooms his victims—with promises of his special attentiveness, gratification and protectiveness.

OMG! YES!!!!!!!!!!!! And follow through with the opposite!

And the other part that hit me hard and should be framed:

“Other LoveFraud columnists and astute posters have correctly noted that not all of these men are consciously operating as predators. While true, it’s also important not to minimize just how many of these men are, consciously, operating with predatory agendas.

In either case, these are not men who love, respect, or even like women. Rather, they use women for ego-gratifying and ego-masturbatory purposes. And just as the thrill of a masturbatury experience fades fast, so too does the thrill that women give such men fade with often startling, disorienting suddenness.

While this dynamic may or may not confuse the exploiter, it will surely confuse the unalert woman.”

You head the nail on the head. Some of these guys may have so little self-insight that they do this predatory behavior over and over, not really aware or caring about the impact on the woman, but just once again idealizing some woman, only to find out , nope, this high didn’t last either. And with others, like the man I was involved with, are not aware of all their motives, but for the most part, they know exactly how the story is going to end and they look forward to watching the woman suffer at the end.

They LOATH women. Yes.

With the man I was involved with, sex felt exactly like I was a tool in his masturbatory session. and when he did turn his attention to me, which was rare, it definitely felt like it was all about him demonstrating his ability (he thought) to control me.

Now that I’m out of the fog, it is amazing to me what I did, what I allowed, what I didn’t scream at, sock him in the face for, etc. I did the homework you’ve assigned in previous posts and I totally get what signs I missed and why and it will NEVER happen again. A creep like him will never use me again. I have compassion for the woman I was then and why I did what I did, even while it amazes me.

We are much more biological than we want to admit. I was in the throes of first love returned chemicals, betrayal bond renewed throes, and a depression at home and a Katrina burn out at work….and I completely lost my way.

It has made me more compassionate toward most people …and also LESS tolerant of evil people.

Thanks for a great post.

Ox Drover

Great article, Steve!!!!!! VEry well worded and very clear!!!! this one is even above your usual wonderful level of article. It is an A++!!! THANKS!!!!!

newlife08

So we said, Steve.

I can only add that as his “other life” became more active, his “TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE” act at home became even more
seductive. Of course, I didn’t know it at the time.

Looking back, and knowing what I know now, I can match up his acting out (by his credit cards) with those times he either showed more contempt for me OR Prince Cahrming would show up.

In the beginning of our relationship, he was the hurt little boy who only needed to be loved – so sweet, hard working, going out with my friends, dancing, always wanting my company – even if I was just driving his work route with him or watching him work on a side job – HE wanted ME with HIM – I thought.
Now- what looked like the need for MY company was just the need for an audience- not wanting to be alone. Someone to tell him what a great job he was doing -how talented he was.

SO all the things I told him about what I desired in a man (when we were still just friends) -he portrayed himself to be over time. I gave him the script unknowingly.

Eventually, he no longer wanted to BE WITH me, spend time with me, he no longer danced with me -never – I would sit at a function and be the only couple sitting at a table while all the others were dancing – I was crushed every time.

The hard worker – faded over time and now feels he has worked long enough/ hard enough .

You are so right about the sex- great technique although my experience is limited by todays standards, but it was like an accomplishment to please me -a testimony of his skill , rather than a giving of pleasure for love and intimacy. At least once in awhile, it would have been nice to feel connected rather than ravished – to feel loved , cherished -not sure if I am making myself clear here. Even at the end , when it was all crumbling he still attempted sex – until I asked him why that was the only way he could connect . I had refused him for two months straight because I could no longer ignore the lack of connection -but he still tried up until two weeks before he left. I do agree it was his way of controlling me and proving he could still get to me.

I don’t think he likes women either – I know he has no respect – but I think he really has no use for anyone except providing sex, caretaking and pumping him up – he doesn’t show much interest in anyone’s life actually – even our children.

Terrific article, Steve -once again. It has really got me to thinkink along some lines I haven’t considered before.

newlife08

So we said, Steve.

I can only add that as his “other life” became more active, his “TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE” act at home became even more
seductive. Of course, I didn’t know it at the time.

Looking back, and knowing what I know now, I can match up his acting out (by his credit cards) with those times he either showed more contempt for me OR Prince Cahrming would show up.

In the beginning of our relationship, he was the hurt little boy who only needed to be loved – so sweet, hard working, going out with my friends, dancing, always wanting my company – even if I was just driving his work route with him or watching him work on a side job – HE wanted ME with HIM – I thought.
Now- what looked like the need for MY company was just the need for an audience- not wanting to be alone. Someone to tell him what a great job he was doing -how talented he was.

SO all the things I told him about what I desired in a man (when we were still just friends) -he portrayed himself to be over time. I gave him the script unknowingly.

Eventually, he no longer wanted to BE WITH me, spend time with me, he no longer danced with me -never – I would sit at a function and be the only couple sitting at a table while all the others were dancing – I was crushed every time.

The hard worker – faded over time and now feels he has worked long enough/ hard enough .

You are so right about the sex- great technique although my experience is limited by todays standards, but it was like an accomplishment to please me -a testimony of his skill , rather than a giving of pleasure for love and intimacy. At least once in awhile, it would have been nice to feel connected rather than ravished – to feel loved , cherished -not sure if I am making myself clear here. Even at the end , when it was all crumbling he still attempted sex – until I asked him why that was the only way he could connect . I had refused him for two months straight because I could no longer ignore the lack of connection -but he still tried up until two weeks before he left. I do agree it was his way of controlling me and proving he could still get to me.

I don’t think he likes women either – I know he has no respect – but I think he really has no use for anyone except providing sex, caretaking and pumping him up – he doesn’t show much interest in anyone’s life actually – even our children.

Terrific article, Steve -once again. It has really got me to thinkink along some lines I haven’t considered before.

ThornBud

Really so true ! Fascinating.

‘…they’re not actually enjoying the sex because they’re not present; rather, they are watching themselves, and watching themselves with you, as if they’re porno aspirants determined to make a name for themselves, determined to stamp themselves (to legendize themselves, if you will) in your mind. ”

I remember we made love (that is what i thought we were doing) after 4 months of being apart. Honey moon phase…and i noticed him watching him/us in the mirror. First time i noticed that i went into denial, but later on, when i realised it was not by chance, i had that “sick in stomack’ feeling.
While i was looking into his eyes and “angelic” face, searching for love expressions, he admired his ownself.
Moreover, he was always explaining what kind of position is the position we just had, as if it was of some importance (now i understood it was, BUT TO HIM).
Instead to whisper love words, he used to take long look into my eyes and say: this is this or that position.
I felt like i was on some sexual education class lol
Now i got it, finally

Matt

newlife08:

Amen, sister. Amen.

Doesn’t matter if they’re gay or straight — they’re all cut out of the same cloth. When you described how crushed you werre that you were the only couple sitting at a table, it made me think back to my relationship with S — that I was in a relationship and had never felt more alone. That is the worst feeling in the world.

As for him feeling he doesn’t need to work anymore because he has worked hard and long enough, well gee, how nice for him. Since by all accounts YOU have been the only one pulling his plow, what does that mean? That you’re supposed to support this sack of shit in his desired retirement?

I can still remember S telling me what he wanted out of life. In retrospect it was interesting that it was basically MY life. To this day, I don’t think that he understood that I genuinely meant it when I told him the week we left for Greece last year that the trip was a LAST CHANCE for us to get back on track. So, we went on the trip, the train not only was no longer on the tracks, but went clear over the cliff. I then saw that all he wanted was MY life without ME in it. So, I closed the Bank of Matt, I turned off the credit cards, I made sure he knew that I was taking trips by MYSELF and started to live MY life without HIM in it.

Today, S is forty, fat, flacid, a failure, living in a flophouse. If that constitutes winning, then I guess he’s won. If I had to hedge my bets, I don’t think his list of prospects for him to parasitically hook onto is all that great. He reminds me of one of those characters in that old cartoon “Pinky and the Brain” where one of the characters was always saying “We’re going to take over the world.” I guess in his fantasy of “perfection” that’s exactly what he is going to do. How pathetic.

So, this year I went off to Greece and had a wonderful time with the new b.f. The new b.f., from day one, has been the antithesis of the men Steve describes in this article. Is he perfect? Hardly. But, he is genuine – genuinely kind, genuinely thoughtful, genuinely caring. Funny, how after being involved with an S you become so adept at seeing whether someone is shining you or genuinely sincere.

newlife08

HEY , MATT,

How the heck are ya? Sounds like you are doing just fine , my friend – so glad to hear it !!!!!!

I am still stuck in limbo -but he is crashing – thinks I should relent and get the pressure off him – something I will not do.

Just waiting for the forensics to finalize so I can make more sane decisions financially.

He is letting me struggle- but he knows I WILL NOT fail my kids …….seems more than happy to allow me to carry the financial burden for my household while he is crumbling under the mess he made – no crew left but one guy, BBQ is failing – hasn’t paid his creditors.

It’s really sad, Matt, just 4 years ago we had 2 paid for homes and we could have rented the third as a retirement fund.

Now , after all his loans and DEALS -there won’t be much left.

Stay tuned- I am sure I will have loads of questions for you as we get to the end of this road………….

Meantime…..peace and stay well

Matt

newlife08:

Good to hear from you. Knowledge is power. Once the forensics are done you will be able to make some sane financial decisions. The not knowing is the worst.

I am glad your S is crashng and burning, although I’m sorry he is inflicting the damage on you and your kids.

Feel free to ask any questions you’ve got. If you need to ask something offline, pass your contact info onto Donna and she’ll get it to me.

I’m still smarting from a stunt my S ex-boss pulled on me. I was the top candidate for a position. She gave me a good recommendation. Then she turned around, clued her out-of-work lover (former colleague of mine) about the job, had him slant his resume just right, and gave him a better reference than me. Guess who got the offer. While it’s nice to hear from people who have learned/figured out what she did, it still doesn’t put a paycheck into my checking account. I’ve taken the approach that I obviously did something right to have gotten as far as I did in the interview process. As for the S ex-boss and her lover, I leave that to the chattering masses.

blueskies

Steve , great post:)
very interested in your fleshing out of the following point:
‘Many of these men are desperate to be the fantasy of their perfect selves”“that is, the fantasy of themselves as special, unique, memorable. And so they tend parasitically (and compulsively) to seek cooperative, vulnerable hosts (such as you) as if to hold for them, store for them their slippery, empty gestures at immortality.’

I know this sounds WAY silly, but I watched an episode of a TV series called ‘Angel’ in which a parasitic ‘demon’ repeatedly jumped from body to body using ‘love’ as a way to get close enough to ‘infect’ the person, the hosts would be destroyed in the process and the parasite had to keep jumping on to the next in order to survive because the host was dead and wouldnt last long, aaaanyway in the end it was prevented from being able to jump into a new host and in desperation wandered around crying ‘love me’ ,’I need to make a connection’… I sat there and thought THATS HIM! He IS a parasite, he cannot exist without ‘going through’ other people ‘ it is how he survives in this world without(for want of a better word) ‘soul’ of his own… but he destroys everyone he touches in the process and they therefore very quickly become useless… what a wretched ‘existance’… they maybe use their ‘hosts’ to hold for them, store for them their slippery, empty gestures at MORTALITY. ?

(wafffle, waffle..and the tv nerd of the day award goes to…;)

blueskies

also – the sex thing, having sex was not ‘enough’, the love was not enough, he wanted it filmed and recorded… which is fine I resolved…’in a relationship or between two consenting adults’… for fun… or something… but it wasnt about me or ‘US’ it was about something else altogether… never come across it before so I had no idea what I was dealing with… God! these creatures really are missing the point, how awful to never FEEL intimacy, ‘the connection'(and yet crave it so much) its like living in 2D.

blindsided31

I have to agree with those who responded that this article is so spot on- I feel like I’ve told my story to Steve and he is re-telling it. And like justabout healed said, ” Some of these guys may have so little self-insight that they do this predatory behavior over and over, not really aware or caring about the impact on the woman, but just once again idealizing some woman, only to find out , nope, this high didn’t last either.” So true, he had no idea how much he hurt me- even seemed shocked at my upset. It’s taken me a while to fully realize how much he doesn’t get it- how he does not know how love feels and conversely doesn’t know how being badly hurt by one you love feels.

skylar

SC,
Last time we had a sex discussion on LF, I probably did psychological damage to everyone by telling them about the way my exP liked it. So I won’t repeat it, but I will say that I now understand how much of his self-esteem and his need to control was wrapped up in sex. For him to be happy, I had to be driven to the top of a mountain, so that he could push me off of it the next day. it was all a calculated plan. So when I denied him sex for 15 years, it made him feel small. Oh wait, that was facing reality! He WAS small. Reality bites.

super chic

Oh yes, I remember some of what you wrote!!! Yes, reality bites. You must have made him feel like shit. Good for you!!!! I have to go to sleep now even thought it’s only 10pm here, have a job that I have to get up for at the crack of dawn, or wait, it’s still dark at 5am. I can feel the Ativan kicking in!!

ANewLily

Note to a few of you for your information:

A few of us left this site when the explicit sex discussions began. Perhaps Donna could set up a different blog for such discussions for those who would benefit?

Tonight, I see it has begun again.

SO, I will just let you guys know, as I promised, that my colon cancer surgery will take place on Friday, October 2nd, with a cardiologist also on hand — since I am a high risk heart patient.

I have no idea what the outcome will be but if I survive, I’ll be back to the board. If not, I will see you in Heaven, okay?

teacher123

I don’t see the gender limitation in this behavior. Women can be pretty seductive and “perfect” as well, and they can jump up and down on every guy around after trashing them, taking their money etc……There are even black widows, but they are more elusive than the common variety spiders.

teacher123

Sex in the city isn’t just on tv anymore.

ThornBud

Dear Lili, be sure we will all pray with u! U are not alone. Everything will be fine, do not worry.
My heart goes to u

ThornBud

Bout “explicit sex discussions”:
Sex was/is MAIN controling tool sociopats are using, manipulating our feelings when we were most voulnerable.
If i, personally, discussed it, i thought on it as on every other tool of exploitation, and as a flagrant RED FLAG to pay an attention.
I am sorry if it hurted someone’s feelings a way or another.
My standing point is that we are all mature and within context we can discuss ALL the manipulative technicks sociopats are using.
Making love, being beated, cheated, humiliated, used and abused financially, what is the difference?

teacher123

Yes I guess i am remiss- the bigger picture at this point. ANewLily- you will make it to see us here-not there.
We wish you the best for what you are facing.

Skippy

ANewLily – I post infrequently, so you may not “know” me but I just wanted to say that my prayers will be with you on October 2.

And Steve, your posts are always so incredibly spot on; they are very comforting to me with their insights, which always help me to understand a little better each time the psychological makeup of these predators. Thank you.

Ox Drover

Dear Guys, first off, MATT, I am so sorry that you got shafted, but that is the way “business” is—-

Lily, dear Lily, we will all be with you in our hearts, minds and prayers.

The TV show thing about the demons sounds so RIGHT ON! They ARE parasites and actually seem to NEED A HOST in order to survive just as the TV versions do. that was a great analogy!

ErinBrock

Lily:
It is imperative you keep your mind in a good place……
It’s a very scary thing to belong to the ‘C’ club! I’m sorry you have been ‘initiated’.
There are a lot of great survivors in this wretched club…….YOU WILL BE ONE OF THEM.
A good majority of the healing takes place in the mind. I know you have been dealt the raw deal of health the past few years……but put it all behind you and allow your body to follow your mind with positive thinking…..
Don’t let the time ‘down’ take your mind down. Stock up of good reading, surround yourself with positive people/help/aid….reach out and accept the help.
There are blessings that will come from your journey….embrace them.
Your a wonderful, beautiful woman…….you need your emotional strength to fight the fight and be a warrior against the “C”.
Believe and it will happen.
You will be in my thoughts, I will send you strength and good mojo……
Stay strong my dear! Stay strong!
XXOO
EB

skylar

Lily,
I know I get sort of fanatical when I read a book that feels insightful and I keep recommending it to everyone – so hopefully I’m not annoying everyone. But perhaps “The art of selfishness” should be on your reading list too.

At first it doesn’t seem like it offers any new insights at all, especially since it was written in 1937!! But I think it’s the WAY, that the author puts all these insights together, into one concise presentation with many different applications. It’s hard to explain, but the way he writes makes it easier to absorb the core of his message: “Never compromise yourself” and “No Ego Satisfactions.” Together, these two edicts form the base for the confidence that you know what is right for you and no one can guilt you into giving away your personhood. Much strength and peace comes from that knowledge.

You might be asking how that relates to cancer? I don’t know except that peace and strength of mind might feel good while you’re working on your physical health.
Love, hugs and prayers to you, Lily.

ErinBrock

Skylar……our LF resident librarian!
🙂

sstiles54

Newlily,
I am a C survivor like Erin. You have survived being in the throes of an s. There is no doubt in my mind you will overcome this! I was diagnosed w/ stage 4 ovarian C when I was still married to the s. I knew I would survive no matter what. My mother died from C. I lost her when I was only 24. We at LF are survivors! We’ve all been through the test of fire, & came out the other side. You are in my prayers, & God will see you through this.

Twice Betrayed

“In either case, these are not men who love, respect, or even like women”

Yes, you are so correct. You nailed this. I came to the same conclusion. I decided this man I am married to does not like women. I think he uses them sexually to degrade[all his sordid affairs] them and have them degrade themselves….which is what porn does also. IMO the reason so many of them are addicted to porn.

ANewLily

Dear LF friends,

Thank you for your compassionate and helpful responses. I’m sorry not to answer each one but my stomach and head hurt TOO MUCH.

I have been feeling serene about the cancer diagnosis since the beginning and I know that this challenge can be overcome, if I keep my positive attitude.

That is difficult because no matter how I’ve tried to “protect” myself from my brainwashed adult children, I have been largely unsuccessful.

Today was the worst of ever. I’m too sick to explain but Oxy knows — maybe she can explain what happened today so you can give me solace/and or advice? I know some of you share the grief of estranged children!

I don’t think I have any choice today but to accept that my children were indeed tainted with their father’s disorder — and likely suffer from it, too. Nothing else makes sense.

It will be extraordinarily difficult to keep my normal positive attitude but I WILL TRY!

Thanks beyond words for your prayers!!

ANewLily

PS These past 7.5 years of their estrangement from me have been FAR WORSE than the too-long “marriage.” I reacovered from “that” before I even found LoveFraud.

Knowledge gained: Children who grow up with a NPD parent do not grow up unscathed!

Ox Drover

Dear LF friends, since Lily requested, I will try to explain a bit of what went on today.

I talked to my dear friend Lily today on the phone, she was distraught after hearing from one daughter the WHY they (the other 2) had not contacted her, except for one time two years ago when she lay dying in a hospital—and coming at midnight to the hospital the security guard had turned them away at the door. The next day they came back to the hospital and SOMETHING happened, we are not srue what, but Lily’s cardiologist told her (after her children left) “Your children are not your friends.” Neither Lily nor I know what her chldren said to the physician to make him say such a thing to Lily, but we both believe whatever they said was so HORRIBLE THAT the physician could not constrain himself. he is a very caring man and very compassionate to her.

Being the sweet wonderful person she is, hearing that today, she immediately felt lthat her kdis “must have felt so bad” about being turned away by the guard, one daughter said that the reason was that lily had told the guard to do this! She was distraught when she called me at how her KIDS HAD SUFFERED and it was all her fault.

Well, you know me, I immediately picked up my skillet and clouted her a good couple of BOINKS over the head! This is simply her children gaslighting her, placing and projecting the blame on to her for them not contacting her for years.

One daughter may actually be a dupe, but in any case, whatever the “diagnosis” of these adult-kids, they have abandoned this lovely woman, and tried to project the blame for that on to LIly.

At the end of our call, she was much more calm, and I DO BELIEVE 110% that she has so much strength and SO MUCH faith that whatever happens, she will be OK. Please keep her in your prayers as she goes through this difficult time of her cancer surgery and finally coming to peace with accepting the TRUTH that she must let go of, as she said ,”the mailignant HOPE” she has held out that her children care for her.

Those of us who have “lost” children know the pain that comes from accepting that your children that you bore and love do not love you back, that they are not capable of returning that love.

I can attest that Lily is a very strong woman and she has been through some difficult times in the last couple of years with a broken ankle, diabetes, a broken hip and now this, totally without any support from her kids at all. She is an amazing woman, and I wanna be just like her when I grow up!

TOWANDA!!!! LILY, you are AWESOME!!! All my love and prayers, Oxy
!

persephone7

To Lily,

You’re in my prayers and here is an image of a beautiful waterfall to think about. It helps me whenever I get low or physically tired – hopefully it can help to revive as well as calm you, body and soul – to see, feel and hear that crystal blue, clear water splashing on top of your head and body, washing you clean, bubbling all around you as you stand under it in a tranquil pool with green trees and wildflowers all around. We can all think of you there, relaxing and getting ready to come back from your ordeals perfectly refreshed and alive.

Wishing you much love and good health…

geminigirl

Dearest new Lily, As you know I have emailed you privately but just wanted to say again, I wish the very very best outcome for you, and I know youll be fine! I know what you are going thru re your adult kids, as you know my younger daughter,C.{now 43} has been NC with me for 17 long years, and Ive never once been allowed to see any of her 3 kids, not even as tiny babies. My older one,D, now 45,as you know only ever used me as a “cash cow”, and I went NC with her 3 months ago, but havent seen her since Dec.08. You are right, Oxy, these NS adult kids do NOT love us, have compassion for us, think of us,-they only know how to use and abuse us.
New Lily is right, my years of abuse from my ex, and eventual estrangement and divorce from my ex were NOTHING to the pain of being rejected by your own kids. The pain is unlike anything Ive ever known. After years of denial I finally ‘see” that they dont love me, Im sure they dont give me a thought. Like New Lily Ive had to give up the ‘malignant hope’ that myadult kids will love me one day. I know now they never change. Im so grateful to God for my new “adopted Iranian adult “kids”, who shower us with love.
Dearest new Lily, God will see you safely thru this trial, and youll emerge out the other side! All my Love and Prayers,{{{HUGS!}}} geminigirl.XXX

ErinBrock

Lily:
I share your pain!

ErinBrock

Lily:
I share your pain!

ErinBrock

Yikes…..not sure what I am doing….sorry….about repeat, but not just what I wanted to say!!!

I did it alone…I know the fear and the pain!

It’s time for YOU…..you have no charity to give, it’s time to recieve…..
this includes your emotions and thoughts for/towards/ inregards/ to your grown children…ON ANY LEVEL!

Lily….clear your head and be prepared for what you know is ahead of you…..
YOU KNOW YOU CAN”T CHANGE ANYONE ELSE>…..no matter WHAT you would choose to do.
Seriously…..I have been in your situation…..IT SUCKS….but it is doable….with many rewards….Open your heart up to new support, new friends……and stop closing down with thoughts of your children.
They will do whatever it is they do……
I went through cancer and treatments alone…..AND being bombarded trying to ‘crack’ me……
I am hot fired pottery…..I was not going to crack…..I was not going to take away from ME and healing for any outside crap…..
My thoughts didn’t stop the crap from being shot my way……
I DIDN”T ALLOW IT THROUGH!
I WAS IN CONTROL!
It’s unbelievable we must be in this situation…..but IT IS WHAT IT IS!
YOU ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ON THIS EARTH AT THIS POINT!!!!!!!!!
IT”S ABOUT LILY!
Not you grown children…..
REMEMBER THE SERENTIY PRAYER and recite it ove and over!
YOU ARE YOUR PRIORITY!

Lily, I am sorry…..I will give you strength….find the good out of this bad…..open yourself up to new friends and support.

Ultimately….on earth…..we walk this journey alone….only with our shadow……

Keep your head up, remain strong and stay focused on the immediate task at hand!
Do NOT let anyone take you off balance from your focus!

BEST TO YOU…….in your journey!
You will be a survivor!
XXOO

maggiemayflower

I recently met a man, or a boy as I should say, because he acted like a gigantic toddler. I met him, he swept me off my feet, told me all the right things that I wanted to hear, and seemed too good to be true. He told me I was different, and that I was someone he could see having something that would last. He told me that he never allows anyone to cuddle with him, and that I was special and it didn’t bother him when I did it. He told me he didn’t mind me being a virgin, but that we could do other things. He told me he personally knew the rapper, neyo and that they hung out on a regular basis. He told me that one of my good friends only wanted to get into my pants, and I believed him. He spun his little web of deception and I let him walk all over me. he told me that he had a disc in his back that was hurting and needed surgery. I lived an hour and a half away, and he told me that if i drove to see him, that he’d pay for it. He never showed me anything. I left feeling like the night had been perfect, here was a guy that hadn’t tried anything! He asked me out, and I said yes for the first time in two years. three days went by and we hardly talked, which was odd..because in a new relationship, you want to see/talk all the time, normally. He would make silly excuses of why he didnt call, my phone mustve been messed up, cos he tried to call three times and nothing, when a friend had called twice and got thru during this time. He told me to drive into town and spend the weekend with him, that itd be just us, hed take me out on a date, etc. I get here into town at 4:30, left school early to make it there to be with him early, and sat in a parking lot waiting for him to call me. Two hours went by, I went to starbucks took my laptop out and tried to see if he was on, or had been, nothing. checked my phone, nothing. I called three times, and by the third time (three hours later) his mother answered. She told me that she was sorry, that she had had his phone all day. That he went to get a haircut, and would be calling me from his friend’s phone soon. 9 o clock rolls around and I havent heard anything. I drove to his house, and knocked on the door, where he was visibly in his kitchen. his mother came to the door after five minutes, and told me to come in, that he had just gotten there. He told me that I couldn’t stay there because he was fixing to take some pills for his back and pass out. I had nowhere to stay.I was furious. he took me outside and acted as though I were just a friend stopping by to say hello and not his gf. he kissed me, held my hands until his friend stepped outside, and he then dropped my hands and went to get his pack of ciggs, that he told me in the beginning that ne didn’t smoke. I left, came back and cried, tried to break it off and he played a silly card, promising me we’d eat breakfast together and spend the day and the next together. I agreed, left and cried. I called my brother and told him what happened and an older friend told me that I had just gotten played. I tried to call him and got no answer, she dialed his number and he answered on the first ring. She pretended to be asking for another “hisname” and he fell for it, told her that he’d text her later, called her cutey (he didn’t know her from adam) and promised to club with her. He texted her in thirty minutes asking for a picture, she took my picture with her, and he asked her which one was she? he didn’t recognize me. She told him the one standing next to your girlfriend. to which he replied, what girlfriend? and then after I left him a message telling him he’d been caught, he blew up my phone trying to get me to talk to him. telling me he was sorry, that his friends made him go clubbing, that he was screwed up cos of drugs and alcohol. He sobbed, and whined, and begged me to come see him at 4 am. and when I told him no, he threw a tantrum. And when I asked him why he couldn’t just come see me, he changed the subject. I told him to leave me be, that I was going to bed, and he called me back thirty mins later to say “what’s up!?” and I told him really? and he said sorry sorry sorry baby, please. and I hung up. He called me the next day and said “what happened last night, I just looked at my phone and saw all this random crap” and he tried to blame it on me for trapping him in his own lie, claiming he didnt do anything wrong because It was my fault for trapping him. and then he said he didn’t need to apologize for his friends making him go out, and asked me to come over. I told him I would later, and when later came, I didn’t go. I didn’t call. I didn’t text. He hasn’t talked to me since. and I deleted him off of everything when I read about a sociopath and found that he matched perfectly with every single sign. He is 22, a pathological liar, told me that he was majoring in psych (he doesn’t go to school), told me he lived alone ( lives with his parents), told me that he recorded music and played guitar and all sorts of instruments all the time (didn’t own a single thing). It was all just a big lie. He tried to break me down, but he didn’t. and I think I proved to him that he couldn’t mess with me.

Maggie,

The guy sound like a classic sociopath. I’m so glad you dumped him. Don’t be surprised if he contacts you again and pretends he made a big mistake and wants you back. It’s just more manipulation. Kick him to the curb.

kim frederick

Dear Maggie, I think you’ve done an exceptionally good job of cutting off contact with this narcissistic jerk. I applaud you. You sound as if you’re very young. Learn from this experience and don’t allow youself to be swept off your feet so quickly. Excercise caution, and let the guy pursue YOU. If he really likes you, he will. I’m glad you shared with us. I hope we’ll hear from you again.

blueskies

Newlily xxxx I just wanted to chime in and send you some love and good wishes.xxx

blueskies

Maggie.This creep sounds awful, but YOU sound AMAZING.xx I too applaude you for kicking this creature to he curb.

I dont know how old you are, but you know, some of us reach ripe old ages before we find the emotional intelligence and where with all you obviously have in dealing with situations and interactions like this.xxx

He tried to break you down…but he DIDNT. That is a great realisation of two amazing things:that A.)there ARE actually creatures in this world that will try to DO THAT and B.) THEY CANT DO THAT TO YOU!
TOWANDA!!!!xxx

skylar

Maggie,
congratulations on getting your DIPLOMA on recognizing a sociopath at such a young age!!
You will now be much safer in the future.

I also applaud how you and your friends tricked him into revealing his psychopathic lies, I wish more of us could do that.BUT you also caused a “narcissistic injury”. You made him look bad. they don’t like that and will try to get even WAY OUT OF PROPORTION to what you did. That’s why he called you back and tried to lure you so intensely AFTER you blew his cover. Every time you go back they will be extra cruel. So cruel, in fact, that you will consider what he has done to you up til now, as mr. nice guy.

This guy has to be completely severed from your life. If necessary, if he continues to harrass you, call the cops. You need to be safe. I don’t want to scare you because I don’t want to be like him. He WANTS your emotions, he eats them for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I only want you to be aware, alert and informed. I want you to have P-radar.

Twice Betrayed

*I need to clarify that I decided that about ten years ago. I divorced him.

JBizzy

I just had my first experience. Short lived but long enough to shatter me to pieces. Met online. He was handsome successful confident. Larger than life. Thought I’d hit the jackpot. He says all of his exes were crazy and selfish. He’s been through many relationships, though short in nature. He said some sick things to me and mentioned doing sexual things in inappropriate places. I watched him mock everyone like he was toying with them. I had never seen anyone do this before. Like people were his entertainment. Everyone from waitresses, friends and to his own family. He was charismatic, sexier, smarter then anyone I ever met. But I knew in my gut there was something wrong and ignored the red flags. His family even warned me about him. I remember he would turn mean after being imtimate and say things that were rude and out of no where. It was like he was sweet one minute and then nasty. He told me he didn’t feel guilt! It’s like I was looking into the eyes of the devil. I’ve dated a lot but never had anyone unravel me and and second guess myself like this person. He said I was selfish and everything is all about me and maybe we would work out if I payed a llttle more attention to him and how much he does and how hard he works and that he needed someone more supportive. The stange thing was we weren’t even in a commited relationship? I knew that he has to have some mental disorder and then I researched and found out about sociopathy and the light bulb went off. It all makes sense now. My friends don’t understand. I started seeing a therapist and I am still dealing wreckage this man has caused in my mind. It’s like he’s my drug. I want more, I want to please him and show him how wonderful I can be. It’s so sick. I can’t imagine spending years with someone like this and the long term damage they can cause. Bless you all.

neveragain

JBizzy, I’m so sorry that happened to you. It is SO disorienting. But kuddos to you for recognizing so relatively quickly that something was off, and for PAYING ATTENTION to those red flags. It shows that you are basically a mentally healthy person and are just reeling from the shock of having your normal, healthy ways of relating to someone go so horribly awry. Of course you want more and want to please him….it isn’t sick, it is what we do in NORMAL relationships when we bond with someone, and there was nothing not working about your ability to bond. You bonded! But because you bonded with someone who routinely betrays love and returns evil in exchange, (an agenda that is not clear to you at the start) you are feeling all disoriented! And like it is sick. HE is sick. So the interactions become sick.

I want to please my husband and will change for him, etc….but he tells me he loves me just as I am, so the bonding just bonds us and causes no problems!

It is my belief that it is very hard for even the most mentally healthy person to get off scott free from these creeps, or to be able to recognize them much sooner than you did, without some prior education, and even then it is often DAMN HARD!

You will be okay. Just have NO MORE CONTACT…..and you will heal. Bless you too.

JBizzy

It’s really hard. He dumped me (via text) out of no where like I was yesterdays trash. I assume he got bored and moved on to his next victim. I worry about the women he comes into contact with in the future. I don’t want anyone else to hurt like me. He put me in such a deep dark place and I saw things that I can’t even repeat. But he is not someone to be messed with. He is the type that would ruin your life if you mess with him. Will he contact me? Should I be prepared? I am worried I will contact him.

skylar

JBizzy,
He sounds exactly like my eXP, he might contact you. Hopefully, he doesn’t think you have money. Without money, all he wants is emotions. Don’t give him any. Bore him to death. Respond in a monotone. Tell him you’ve joined a monastery and have found the Buddha.

I’m glad you noticed the red flags, but I think that without the internet, you might never have figured out what it was.
When I met my P there was no internet and only one book at the library on this subject. (that I could find)

The red flags DO go up at the beginning but if you can’t reconcile the lies with the truth, then it all starts to melt into one big whitewash and before you know it you are hypnotized in a sea of emotions. Thank God for the internet and LF. 25 years later is better than never.

JBizzy

Skylar,
Thanks for your reply. He has plenty of money. I think he enjoys toying with human emotions and manipulating and diminshing people. He is obsessed with making more money which then means he can impress and control more people. All mine really wanted was a servant and someone to worship him. But that wasnt enough, you’d have to be a frickin mind reader to know he wants and needs everyday.

I am working with my therapist on acknowledging the red flags from the beginning. But you are right, its almost like its too late and you are in a hypnotic state and hooked.

How long have you been without yours? I can’t imagine not having the internet. I would have thought that I’ve gone mad. Because you try and try to analyze why are they behaving this way, why dont they care? And you feel devalued. At least there are answers now and you can attempt to move to forward. How are you doing?

Twice Betrayed

Oxy: “Those of us who have “lost” children know the pain that comes from accepting that your children that you bore and love do not love you back, that they are not capable of returning that love.”

You know, Oxy, this is the ultimate kick in the head. We can dump the P hubs, but the kids…well, you know that’s the hardest. We have put our all in our kids…and when they turn out evil…it just about finishes us off. But, I would still rather know I did what was right, to the best of my ability then to be the one doing the evil. This gives me great comfort and allows me to be happy, at peace and move forward.
I had to text with my PX Friday over taxes….and he sarcastically said: “ok, little angel.” Instead of being upset, I simply ended the brief exchange with “I am so glad you finally are admitting I am an angel.” This was my parting shot…as the required contact over taxes was ended and I had nothing else to say and was not going to engage. [I didn’t want contact but he was calling from the tax office…they had the taxes messed up and his was still with mine.]

skylar

Jbizzy,
It’s been 4 months now since I ran from the P.
Oh crap, he’s calling now. Not answering. too much to do today…

You are so lucky that you only sacrificed 2 months to this difficult life lesson. I noticed his lies from the first. I don’t even remember what lies they were, which is strange, but I remember thinking: wow, how can someone lie sooooo much all the time? I wish I could remember how I knew he was lying, but I don’t. I can’t remember one single lie. I just remember that I was compelled to go to the library and find a book about liars. That’s when I found, “People of the Lie” by Scott Peck. It’s a good book, but Dr. Peck made it sound like these people were rare and that they were evil so I thought, surely if I saw one I would immediately recognize the horns and tail – right? no.

During that time I was slipping further and further into neverneverland so that with time, I noticed less and less BS. All I saw was how extraordinary he was. He also kept up the pity ploy, telling me that he felt sick to his stomach all the time and thought he might have cancer. I would go to work crying everyday at the thought of it.
The other thing he would say is that he was worried he might have AIDs because he knew so many women before me. There is always a kernal of truth in every lie: he had known so many men AND women and probably pigs and cows and sheep too.
But the purpose in telling me was gaslighting, making me fear. There was also another motive: to brag about his sexual prowess, to say that he had been with so many women because he could.

That’s the thing about my XP, he usually has multiple objectives for every little thing he does or says. I guess he’s a multi-tasker 😛

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