By | June 30, 2008 108 Comments

If our emotions are triggered, there’s more pain to process

Lovefraud recently received the following e-mail from a reader—we’ll call her Sally:

It’s been almost four years since I left my ex psychopath. He almost had me take my own life through guilt, when it was him lying, cheating, committing fraud, you name it—a textbook case.

The reason I write to you today, however, is I am so sad and disappointed in myself yet again. Four years and I thought I was over the damage done by the psychopath so I stepped out of my comfort zone to contact an old friend I had not seen since before the psychopath came into my life.

I made a decision to visit my male friend and we had a nice time. When I returned I started analysing the situation. Was my friend just after one thing? He had made a few small promises that had not come through (generally that wouldn’t bother me too much). I felt like it was happening all over again. I felt cheated, lied to and manipulated by such minor matters.

The worst of all I let my friend have it by email. I was horrible, cruel and nasty; it was like my now lost friend was responsible for everything that happened four years ago just because he said a few things he didn’t come through with. So before I got hurt I lashed out and hurt him; I sabotaged something that could have been good in my life.

Now I just feel miserable. I was so nasty he will never speak to me again. I don’t blame him. My underlying intention was to get that result. I really thought I had recovered; obviously not. Now I am scared I will never be able to recover.

Time and emotional processing

Recovery from an entanglement with a psychopath/sociopath takes both time and emotional processing. The operative word here is “both.”

By emotional processing, I mean allowing ourselves to feel the deep disappointment, anger, hopelessness, rage, hatred—whatever painful emotions the involvement with the psychopath has generated within us. When we allow ourselves to feel these emotions—as uncomfortable as it is—when we are through, we can release them. The only way out is through.

Releasing the emotions is not an event, it’s a journey. No one can know in advance how many times we will be dealing with painful emotions, or how long it will take to release them. The amount of emotional processing required, and the amount of time required, are different for every individual.

Sally’s reaction

Sally’s involvement with a psychopath was so damaging that she contemplated suicide. This is serious. She probably needs a lot of time and processing in order to recover. In fact, if she was willing to take the step of contacting the man, she’s probably made a lot of progress.

Now, I can’t tell if Sally’s relationship with the man she contacted had the potential to be unhealthy. Was her intuition working, and the man was “just after one thing?” Or did she totally overreact?

The guy “made a few small promises that had not come through.” This could be a red flag—if not of a psychopath, than of someone who is inconsiderate. And a relationship where one party gets to be inconsiderate is at the very least, not fair to the other party. At worst, it could be the beginning of manipulation. So maybe Sally was justified in ditching the guy.

But she lashed out, and was then surprised and disappointed at the force of her own reaction. What happened? She experienced a “trigger.” Something in her encounter with the man brought up more of the pain from her experience with the psychopath.

Always more to do

This means that Sally still has more emotional processing to do. There is still pain within her that needs to come out. It may be directly related to her experience with the psychopath. Or, it could be related to some other deep pain or disappointment she’s carrying around—maybe from her childhood, or teenage years, or other relationships. I think Sally should view this incident as an opportunity for more healing, allow herself to experience the emotion, and release it.

If this man was truly a friend, Sally might be able to apologize, explain why she reacted the way she did, and he would understand and forgive her. But maybe the guy was a user and deserved whatever Sally said. If that’s the case, she should just move on.

Yes, Sally has more work to do. And she’s not alone.

In reality, we are never finished recovering. That’s because, whether due to the psychopath or other disappointments in our lives, we’re always carrying around some buried pain somewhere. But we can get to the point where the pain is minimal, and our lives are filled mostly with peace and joy. And that is the place we’re all journeying to.

Comment on this article

Please Login to comment
Notify of

The emotions the psychopath raised in me were over whelming. The hate, anger, disappointment, hurt were such destructive emotions i chose to bury them. Not realising they would resurface so far on down the track. I hadnt’ realised up until this moment i had actually stopped feeling any emotion whatsoever. This week has been terrible ive finally cried and got angry. How dare anybody take everything from someone? How dare i let him? Im not a stupid woman but the psychopath was so nice and charming, his many, many lies and deceipt in every area of his life always seemed plausible, alway somebody elses fault, never ever his. I really never knew such evil existed up until then. Before i even realised such a person existed i use to say to him ‘don’t you have a soul?’ and ‘don’t you care what you do to ther people’?. No need now to wonder why i received such a blank look, now i look back. He had no soul, no remorse, no guilt, no conscience . I lived 8 years with a psychopath and the games he played with everyone who crossed his path are beyond understanding.
So when someone lets me down in the smallest ways i guess i get scared and my wall of defence from the line of fire goes straight back up. I hope i learn to trust again one day. I feel i left the comfort of my safety zone and took a risk. I was scared, i ventured out in the big wide world. That big wide world is not a nice place. I will retreat back into the safety of my world with good friends and family and when i feel stronger and have worked through my emotions, instead of trying to bury them, i will try again.

Thankyou Donna


This must be a time for cleaning house for the most of us. I, too, have been going through a time today, and this anger keeps coming to the surface. The man, who I truly believed was a God-send, but used everything against me, has caused me, too, to stay in a form of denial. I just didn’t want to believe that someone could do this to me. It seems that as far as men go, all the ones I trusted let me down. From my father, husband, friends, etc. I’m so afraid at my age to let go again.

I think I finally came to terms this evening after having a good cry, that in order to finally move on, I have to let go completely. Not that it did any good, but I had to get in one last word. I called him a pig and pond scum. I told him he has no right going around seducing broken down married woman, in order to get free sex and money. He doesn’t want to commit to just one woman as he doesn’t want to settle down, but married women are safer. He can do his dirty deed then just walk away, with money in his pocket, the woman none the wiser.

This man has so many characteristics of sociopath, narcissist, misogynist, womanizer, that I don’t know which one to settle on. All I know is that he, too, took and gave nothing, but grief. What makes it so difficult for me is that he lives a block away from my office and this is a very small town. I just have to steel myself to give nothing away.

I just can’t get myself convinced that these people really do have no remorse for what they do. I carry more than my share and it behooves me that someone could carry none and just swoop in, do a number, then walk away, thinking what their next move might be. I just hated having to label someone, but it’s inhuman to do what they do and not call it something.

Thank you Donna, for making a way for others to come forth and vent. It sure feels better to be able to finally tell someone who understands and doesn’t blame me. We all know how we were manipulated. It isn’t our looks, boobs, butt, hair, eyes, etc. We were just an easy target. If Christie Brinkley had it happen to her too, I think I’ll give up. There’s just no hope for me.


Harmony, i feel those same emotions. i feel like after two years with my sociopath i stopped feeling any emotion bc i was so used to the pain and angry he gave me. the lies became so normal. the other women became so normal in my life. he always had a way to explain why there was another girl around. he always had a good cover up or a story. when you said to him “dont you have a soul” I swear on my life i said the exact same words, its like you would living my life. i couldt understand and still dont understand how you could be such a evil person, with no care in the world. Even now its never all there fault, always puts the blame on someone else. Like what he did to me was not that bad and the fact that i wont take him back, he just cant believe me and how mean iam to him! wow, its unbelieveable. i just cant believe someone can be ok with cheating and lying to someone over and over again. its so hard to learn what u had with someone wasnt real it was fake


I remember what my Dad used to say to me when I was a teenager “your life is not baseball, it’s not 3 strikes and you’re out, it’s one strike and I shouldn’t have let you in the ball park”. Words of wisdom from my Dad who was a great, loving, kind, decent man who said what he meant, and meant what he said. I am so grateful that I was born into his family. My Godmother’s opinion of my Dad (my mother’s middle sister) said “don’t you girls think you are going to find someone like your father out there … even in our day, there were more decent, responsible men to choose from and your dad stood heads above the rest, we couldn’t believe it when your mom brought your dad home to meet the family”. That is the opinion of a sister-in-law. What a tribute. When my Dad passed away there was valet parking at his wake. People were lined around the block to pay their respects to my dad. I remember looking back from the limo at the funeral procession … I could not see the end car. When we walked into the church for my dad’s services I turned around and looked back through the church … it was standing room only. The church was packed with mourners paying their respects to a fantastic person.

I miss my Dad.


Dear apt/mgr

I live my life in hope, without hope there is nothing. I hope one day i can trust and love again. I hope to meet a honest, decent man. I hope i can get over the destuctive emotions. Living so close to such a person must be extremely hard, thankfully mine has disapeared off the face of the earth, probably to find another victim (as now i know better how many victims there were financially, sexually, relationship wise). He fooled some of the best, men included. However it is unfair that other people who cross my path in life feel the brunt of my destructive emotions which should be directed at the psychopath. The few very little mistruths told this time (which were nothing really), brought back the 1000s of lies and deceipt by the psychopath.

I think blondie says it quite clearly. How hard it was to learn that it was all fake! Even harder to understand it was all for their own self satisfaction and gain. On a good day i try and look at it this way, how terrible their lives must be to ‘never ever have known or know real love’.


Dear Wini

Im sorry you miss your dad. There should be many more people in this world like your dad who ‘mean what they say’ and ‘say what they mean’.


Dear harmony:

I do miss my Dad. He was a fantastic person. He came from a family that his dad (my grandfather) was an alcoholic. He never knew from one day to the next if he would see the good guy in my grandfather or the beast that emerged when he was drinking. My grandmother (bless her heart and soul) stayed with him throughout her life. They didn’t believe in divorce way back then. My father at the age of 10 prayed to God after one of the many arguments between his parents. Arguments that totally overwhelmed my grandmother. Anyway, my father prayed to God that if he was ever lucky in his life to get married and have children he would be the best husband and father in the world. True story … and he was the best husband to my mom and the greatest Dad in the world. I’m laughing as I write this next memory. When I was in high school, my friends and I would pile into the car (whoever drove at that time) and spend the day soaking up the rays at the beach. We’d leave around 4:00 to come back home. As we got dropped off in front of my parents’ house (my sister and I) and were walking down the drive way to the back door to the house … we saw about 10 of our male friends in the back yard talking with our Dad. I said to our friends “oh, we just got home from the beach, let us grab something to eat, get ready, and we’ll be out in a few minutes”. One of our male friends said “we’re not here to see you two, we’re here visiting your dad”. Now, that says it all that all our male friends loved our Dad as much as we did. My Dad always took time out for everyone. No matter who that would be. I remember the best friend to my brother telling me at my father’s wake … that he respected my Dad so much, that after his father died, my father would visit his widowed mom just to ensure she was OK. If she needed anything done around the house or just needed to talk. My brother’s best friend said “I was at college when your father started checking in on my mom. Do you realize how grateful and relaxed your Dad’s actions were for me being so far away from home and I really got to study?”.

I love and miss both my parents and I know that their spirits have gone on to the next part of our journey.

Peace and Love everyone.


Dear Wini

Thank you for sharing these wonderful stories about your father. In doing so you contribute to the healing, certainly to my healing.

I hunger for stories about good, decent, honest men. They help me to reconstruct a measure of trust and belief in men. I don’t want to end up distrusting all of them. Logically I know there are good men out there but getting my heart to believe that is another story.

I had a recent positive experience with a male friend. We know each other for about eight years but we have one of those friendships where we seldom see each other but yet we feel comfortable enough with each other to share confidences. In all the years I’ve known him he’s never once lied to me. When I told him about my ex-P (whom I call the Beast) my friend immediately said I could call him any time, day or night. He would listen to me no matter what I had to say. I really appreciated the offer because I know he doesn’t make that kind of offer lightly. He helped to restore my faith, just a little bit.

On the whole I’m coping really well but there are times I get what I can only describe as a wave of darkness and despair. Sometimes it only lasts a few minutes and other times the entire day. It’s those times when I feel I’m perilously close to losing my sanity. At those times I’m not quite sure what is real and what is only in my imagination.

I had a triggering moment yesterday. The Beast called up an old flame and tried to re-establish contact with her (he needs a new source of income for when he’s released from prison). What he doesn’t know is that I spoke to her already and told her the truth about him. She blasted him from a dizzyheight and confronted him with all his lies…yet he still tried to lie his way out of it!

What hurt me deeply (though I shouldn’t have been surprised) was that he told her he broke up with me last year and I didn’t want to accept it, that I had been badgering him. Fortunately she knew that wasn’t true and she told him so. Even though I have irrefutable proof we were still together up until May this year I have to keep reminding myself I didn’t imagine the whole relationship. I hate feeling that way. I hate being upset at what he says about me.

I’ve decided to have a lawyer’s letter sent to him, ordering him to stop telling lies about me, or else I will sue him for slander. I want him to know I’m no longer an easy target. I’ve already contacted everyone I know, to tell them about him. I’ve already cut off several options for him and I intend to continue doing so whenever I can.

I hate him, I really do. I don’t want to hate but I can’t help it. I still fantasise about him dying in a painful and bloody manner. I know it takes time but I wish I could feel nothing for him.


Odette: Lies are all a part of their games they play. In time you will find out that you were privileged that an anti-social took the time out to trash your honesty and decency. That means they really do want the light of God in their lives. They just don’t realize that you can’t hand that light over to them. They, like the rest of us have to earn that light by walking the righteous paths in life. God automatically assigns us light each step we take on that righteous path … step by step. Every righteous path we take, the more light from God shines on us. Those living in the dark, living in their egos … want the light but believe in what their egos tell them how to live. They do not believe in or trust God and, therefore, do not ask God to help them get closer to him. All they need to do is ask God to help them make their way back to him. It’s really simple … all they need to do is ask and God will do the rest for them (and us). He always does.

Peace Odette.

P.S. Read Tolle’s book “A New Earth”. He explains how to read our Bible. Intense, absolutely intense.


I agree with the statement that we are always recovering. That used to scare me I felt damaged and hopless. Now I see that it is actually empowering. It ignites a certain kind of understanding of self– I treat myself gently now when I am going through something. Acting out happens and I have an awarness of the past and where I was and where I am now. I have tools today that I can use to get me through. Even if I am caught by surprise through some sort of trigger. THe message is strong we can live happy healthy fulfilling lives. I think what was the biggest breal through was getting through the brainwahing “this did happen and it happened to me” I beleived my x and the other x and minimized their actions. How could I recieve help or begin to heal, help myself if I wasn’t even sure that it happened. It did happen and I am getting better and better. A slip doesn’t have to be a wipe out!!!


I sometimes think I”m going to become a shrew due to the way these men did me. I’ve despaired of ever meeting a real man. I was always so naive that I thought a man was just a man, but still couldn’t understand why they just weren’t “there”. So many of them are only happy when sex and money are in the picture.

I didn’t have a father figure in my own dad. I was 35 when I was able to say, “I love you” to him and that was a couple of days before he died. I had to even initiate that. He was there for so many others, but for some reason his children were like strangers to him. Then I get married and it turns out the same for my children. My husband said I turned them against him. He just wanted to blame me for his own transgressions. He, too, knew what he did. I can forgive these people, but I don’t excuse them.

I was just sitting here wondering what they saw in me that caused them to speak to me like they did and to manipulate me so. Even in my job, I’m met with liars and cheaters, not to mention thieves, as they steal rent. It’s so hard to manage people who aren’t honest. And when we know they are lying, but can’t prove it. That’s what frustrates me so.

I have a few certain people I can trust. My children for sure, a sister and her husband, and I’ll have to think on the rest! The last couple of days have been one reality check after another. I’m going through the anger stage, then there will be some resentment, bitterness, then probably indifference. I thought I was there before, but some new information came to light, and I had to reprocess the whole time. What a debacle! But I’m no longer “the coward of the county”.

God says He tries the heart. That’s not just ours who believe in Him. I believe He will judge people’s motives and that goes for those who do what they do to tear down others lives. They have no right to mess in a person’s life unless they really mean it. But now that I know what to look for, I’m constantly on the alert. If it happens to me again, it will be because I let it. Not because I was taken in and trusted. I think my brain is fried.



The advice here is good. If you’re experiencing rage, it is your body’s way of protecting you until you can heal further.

A great book on this is “Boundaries” by Henry Cloud. I highly recommend it. Among other things, it discusses anger and how we need to listen to it and what it means. It also discusses how we can move past anger which is what we want to do.

The Boundaries book is about letting others know where our boundaries are. Those of us who have been victimized by Sociopaths know all too well how they violate our boundaries and even worse, how they manipulate us into violating our own boundaries.

Regarding Sally and her friend, there was not a lot of detail in this article about exactly what it was that he did, but I think it is highly probable that she made the right decision. She may not have done it in a gracious way, but I strongly suspect that she dodged a bullet. I think this man was not likely to be good for her.



I read that book way back when, when all that unbelievable betrayal and confusion hit. He explains everything so clearly, it’s one of my favorites. Great book by a great Christian author.


Ox Drover

I realized last week when I had to see my mother that I still had some unresolved emotions, and her “morally superior” attitude, her snearing, her projection, her attempt at lying, all came to a head like a giant boil!

That evening I became very angry, frustrated, and over the next week (last week) I went through the entire steps of the grief process like I was on a “high speed train”–over days, not weeks, and I hope to goodness I am approaching the station, though I know it is never 100%, I hope I am coming to a place called “Peace” about her betrayal.

Looking back I realize I have been in theFOG where she is concerned all my life–thinking I could trust her, that she might be “wrong” in some of her ideas, but never once suspecting that she had the capability to BETRAY me, to lie to me, to totally throw me away like a used tissue.

Yet, that’s what she did in her effort to “protect” my psychopathic son from the consequences of his behavior, from me not cooperating with the plan to get him released on parole. Even after she knew he had tried to have me killed (and probably her too, but at least his brothers as well as me) she STILL tried to project her bad behavior on me.

I must have been somewhat in denial, but now I realize that whatever the “label” which can be appropriately tacked on to her behavior or her thinking, she is behaving in a EVIL manner. She isn’t going to change. There is nothing that will make her see the light, and I CANNOT trust her. EVER.

Without trust (even misplaced trust) there isn’t any way I can see to have an intimate relationship of ANY kind with ANY ONE. Since I can never again trust her, and her behavior and attitude is painful to me, the relationship is gone. Done. And like any thing that is “dead” we have to “dispose” of it appropriately. Denial won’t do it. Bargaining won’t do it. Sadness won’t do it. Anger won’t do it. But Acceptence of the reality of it, going through the “stages” of grief, and coming to acceptance of it EMOTIONALLY as well as “logically” will lead to a resolution of the pain. When I taught classes in the grieving process I would tell people that you can’t go over, under, around pain, but THROUGH it, experience it, and resolve it. It isn’t easy while it is happening, but we can get there.

Healing is a journey not a destination, and all of us are not perfect, and none of us ever will be, but that doesn’tmean we can come to acceptence of what IS REALITY, and even though that reality isn’t what we wish it could be, we don’t have to let it make the rest of our lives miserable. Each of us has so many blessings, and my tours of third world countries reinforced to me just HOW MANY BLESSINGS AS AMERICANS we have.

Four years ago a medical student in Arkansas who was trying out for the Olympics failed to make the team. He then stabbed his physician wife to death and then took his own life by jumping from a high building. I am sure he was disappointed he didn’t make the team, but he let that ruin and end not only his own life, but his wife’s life as well, Unresolved grief and failure to accept reality can end our lives either physically or spiritually or emotionally, or, we can “get on with life” and appreciate the good things we DO have, we can HEAL. But if we are not brave enough to face the pain, if we try to bury it, it only gets worse.

I am really sorry that my mother, and I am her only child, is now alone in her last years, a bitter, angry, frustrated woman who betrayed a daughter who loved her so that there can be no healing of that relationship, ever. What a pity for her and for me as well. I can’t change that, or fix it, I can only resolve it, grieve over my misplaced trust, the pain it caused, and get on with my own life. If she had died before I found out about the betrayal, I would have grieved for the mother I “missed” and gone on with life. Well, she didn’t physically die, but the relationship did, but the death is a DEATH none the less, even though she is still breathing. I lost my mother. The mother I only IMAGINED I had. It hurts, but I am STRONG and I am TAKING BACK MY POWER for her to hurt me.

Someone on the blog (sorry I can’t remember who) said that Love is giving someone the power to break your heart, and trusting them not to.

I loved my mother, and I trusted her not to break my heart, but she did. I’ll get over it. I will grieve for that dead trust, that dead love…and I will recover. I loved my husband and I loved my step father (Wini he was as wonderful as your dad was to you, to me) but I have come to acceptence with their physical loss, but their spirits, the wonderful memories are with me still. I know that they both loved me very much, because they treated me with kindness and respect.

I have taken back my power that I gave to my mother to continue to hurt me, because she is not worthy of my trust any more, and she has proven that beyond a doubt. But I no longer pity her or feel sorry FOR her, I feel sorry that that is the situation, but not sorry FOR her.

I’ve made mistakes in my life that have hurt those I loved. But I have NEVER done anything to DELIBERATELY hurt any one. My mother DELIBERATELY hurt me. My P-son DELIBERATELY hurt me (tried to kill me). My DIL deliberately tried to kill my son C, and the Trojan HOrse P deliberately tried to kill me and to kill my son, C. Deliberate malice, deliberate infliction of pain is intolerable, unexcusable, and no one who does that to you loves you. REcognizing that, and even if you have “believed” and “trusted” that person for your entire life (ignoring of course the previous times they have hurt you) once you SEE THROUGH THE FOG, it makes it easier to move on and to process the painful emotions of loss of your fantasy.

I’m getting there, but there are bumps in the road, and pitfalls, but I don’t think that God promised us a smooth sail, only a safe landing.


Dear OxDrover

My heart goes out to you. I always had a difficult relationship with my mother. She betrayed me many times, neglected me when I was growing up and inflicted immeasurable emotional and psychological abuse on me for many many years.

How I learnt to cope with her (and this took many many years) was to separate the woman who raised me from the woman she is now. The woman who raised me seemed all powerful, filled with rage and resentment and was never in the same mood from one moment to the next. She said cruel things, berated me at the drop of the hat and took every opportunity to remind me that I was nothing and that I couldn’t depend on her for a home.

The woman she is now is a frail old woman who is afraid of losing her children. She realised that she did many things wrong and she apologised to me in the only way she knew how. She’s not perfect and I find it easier to be with her now that I no longer expect anything from her. Somehow that freed me to like her again (I always loved her, no matter what). In a sense I’ve become the parent and she’s become the child.

I have great sympathy for anyone who has a difficult relationship with a parent. There is nothing simple and uncomplicated about the parent/child bond. I suppose we each have to find our own paths to making some kind of peace with our parents.

I wish I were near to you OxDrover. I would give you such a big hug. You deserve to have better people in your life. You’re a good kind person. Reading your comments on this site has told me something about you – you are a person who make a difference in people’s lives. I would bet anything that there are people out there who think of you with love and appreciation because you helped them when they needed it most.

I can’t give you a hug for real but consider yourself virtually hugged. 🙂


I had the same experience in that my husband (ex P) slept with women who I thought to be my friends and eventually he left me for one of them. But I just never could quite bring myself to be angry with the women. It was he that was my husband and I knew better than anyone about what his charm and flattery allowed him to accomplish. He is a class “act” and shortly before he left, I was beginning to see behind his mask, his big exaggerated fake smile, his silly laugh and his vanity. Afterall these P’s are good at what they do. I figure I was swallowed up by him–nearly LOST in him–so why wouldn’t they be? And, as far as the woman he eventually left to be with–I tried repeatedly to warn her–even telling her about two seperate instances where he was accused of inappropriate conduct with children, multiple sexual harassment complaints–one of which is documented–and how after he left me, his friends and family came forward to tell me that he had always behaved in this manner and that his outrageous behavior certainly wasn’t limited to me–so I should in no way take his “problem” personally. They told me of multiple sexual encounters that he had with women during our marriage and that he had never been faithful to any woman prior to our marriage, either. One described him as a “predator”. When I asked why on earth they didn’t tell me these things about him BEFORE he left, they said that due to his staying with me longer than any of the others that they though he might actually have feelings for me and that I might eventually be his “fix”. Now, they believe the NEW girl to be his fix. I don’t think they realize that there is NO fix. He actually admitted that all the things I told her about his behavior was true but quickly explained that he had treated me worse than any other woman and told HER how sorry he was. I told her that when he showed some remorse to me that I’d believed that. He had to convince HER that he was sorry for what he did to ME in order to stay in her good graces. An apology to me wouldn’t gain him anything–now would it? Of course, I was the only one singing to her like a bird about his behavior so she also believes me to be the scorned ex-wife. The rest were smart enough to totally wash their hands of him years before. And, of course, he explained that all those failed relationships were due to the women cheating on him. LOL! All I can say is that I tried to warn her and she wouldn’t heed good advice so she’ll have to learn just as I did. I wouldn’t have heeded warnings, either. These people are vultures and they set out to get what they want one way or another and they are going to win no matter what the cost. NO ONE is excluded from falling prey to them–not even our best of friends.


Dear Free:

I understand your pain regarding the women’s involvement in your situation. It’s incredible to have to find out that women that you considered your friends were as weak in mind and spirit as they are. Who really cares about the specifics of who seduced who, it’s the fact that the seduction and conclusion even happened.

It reminds me of what my mom’s mother (my grandmother) used to say to me “Be careful for what you ask for, you just may get it”! And, “You are going through this pain because it’s God’s way of telling you this person or situation isn’t right for you”. “Pain is God’s way of ensuring you grow”.

I don’t know why women attack us more than men ever would or could. But, unfortunately in todays society, most eventually do. It’s the rare woman out there that would never think of backstabbing their friend in any way, shape or form. That is the friend you keep in your life and her title is “BEST FRIEND”, the others, unfortunately, get put into the “acquaintance” category of your life if you decide to keep them in your life at all. I think these women too, have to feel some kind of pain to get them to the level of growth where you are. But, sadly, we all know how people can numb their pain for years, alcohol, drugs, sex, excessive work, roller-coaster rides, etc. etc. etc. Maybe, just maybe, these sexual exploits with your man are a cry for help from these women. Jealous of you and your light and knowing deep down inside, they don’t shine as bright as you do … so why not try to snuff out some of that light by hurting you the way they did. Personally, I think you should sit down with all of them … all together and discuss what they did. If you try to talk with them one on one, they will lie about all the reasons why they did what they did. All together, you can have a group confessions going on … and that would take a life of it’s own … all of them being on a roll confessing their inner most truths and insecurities. I am sure you will all have a good crying session after this meeting of the minds. But, remember, they have showed their true colors of what they are all about today. They will have years of growth to get to the level of friendship that you would be comfortable with.

Good luck.

Peace to your heat.


To Harmony:

The reason my father said what he meant and meant what he said was because he made a conscious decision to be this way from the age of 10 (from a night that he was in extreme pain hearing his father verbally abusing his mother again). I think that’s the trick to being what you want to be in life, that conscious decision moment in our lives.

I also think that anti-socials made a conscious decision at a very young age to be outrageous all their lives (a who cares attitude of not having to think about anything ever again) due to some horrific pain that occurred at that specific moment in time. Their decisions were made from a child’s perspective, not an adults perspective. I think all the anti-social personalities in this world are stuck back at that point in time (age in their lives) that the pain first occurred. No matter what age they are chronologically, their emotional and spiritual age is stunted back to that small child of 5,6,7 or 8. This says to me, our prisons are filled with children, not the chronological adult looking ages of these people, but children. If they really are these children, then our professionals working in the system should realize this and adjust their strategies when dealing with them. How and why would you treat a child like an adult? I think this is why we can’t get through to anti-socials, we are treating them from their chronological age instead of treating them from the levels of them as children.

That is why are pain is so great when we get involved with anti-socials. We’re looking at them as adults that should have known better, instead of looking at them as the children that they really are. My ex turned 59 this may. That’s his chronological age. I think I’m dealing with a boy of 7 or 8.

I feel what I wrote to you is the TRUTH from my heart.


Your above post just triggered many thoughts and memories for me. I remember my husband telling of an incident he had on a job and how he was told to do something. He did what he was told but the boss said that wasn’t what he meant. My husband said he told him to say what he meant and mean what he said. He applied that principle to all areas of his life, but not to his role as husband.

When he’d be doing something that pertained to that role, such as working on the house, he would start ranting and raving, and screaming that he was so sick and tired of working on the house, that he didn’t care if it ever got done. I use to cower in fear when he’d have these tirades. I would think that he’s acting like a little boy who was told to put his toys away and get ready for bed. I’ve since learned that his actions were such that he is emotionally retarded. He has the emotional makeup of a little boy and I was his mother.

My marriage was one of such distorted reasoning, that I sometimes think it never happened, but I check in and remember it really did. All I have to do is go to the unfinished house and hear those words again and see him throwing his fits, and it all comes back to me.

To some men I meet, I come across as a mother figure. I had one man in particular tell me that I was real because I don’t smoke, drink, curse, bar or bed hop. To some men, that is a mother figure. I don’t know how to be any different. I’m not a slut so I guess had I been a curser and fighter, I might have scored points. I just knew what God says in that we have to give an account of our words and actions. So I’ve based my living on that. But something was radically wrong as far as relating to a man is concerned. If so many of them are 60 going on 16, then there’s not much hope for a woman like me to want to share life equally and mutually.

I wrestle with the knowledge I’ve gained through all of this. I wanted truth and God gave that to me, but what I see almost makes me sick inside. I don’t know what hurts more. Knowing what I thought was truth was a lie or finding out that I really wasn’t loved for me. I was just an object. And not of affection. They were apparently just playing out a role with me. It’s like waking up in the midst of rem sleep and trying to determine just where I am.


To everyone speaking about their pain. We have to remember the following quote from Luke 23: 34

And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”

This statement is true for every one. We don’t know everything. Only God knows everything.

Therefore, parents who caused pain are in pain themselves. Chronologically they are considered adults, but spiritually, they are stunted at the age level were their pain was first inflicted. If they were not living from pain, they would not cause pain. They don’t know what they do. They are doing the best that they can do with the tools they have as children, young children in whatever their chronological age is. This does not matter.

As far as pedofiles in society, I think they are the spiritual age of the chronological age of children they are caught with, what adults see as abuse. From their child’s mind, they have no clue what they are doing is abuse. They are connecting with others at their same level in age. I don’t think it’s any more than this. We as adults, are not seeing their actions correctly. We find them repulsive because we are looking at the chronological age of the person and thinking from an adult viewpoint, they should know better. They know only from the level that they are spiritual stunted, as young children being spiritually stunted from PAIN. No further from that perspective of a child getting involved with another child. I think as adults, if we could put blinders on and then communicate with these people, we would truly see the children we are dealing with.

If we can all look at people who cause us pain from the perspective of watching the movie “Big” with Tom Hanks.

Peace and God Bless every one.


To apt/mgr:

I believe your husband got involved with you due to the light of your spirit. He (from where he was stunted as a child) sought out someone to marry (because his family and friends were constantly enforcing/pushing him that he should marry. That’s what you do at your chronological age, except your husband knows his true spiritual age of 6 or 7 years old. Six or 7 year olds DON’T marry. But he had to keep up the (mask) and he married you because of your spiritual light. He did love you. The love of a child. When you as an adult woman wanted more. He knew he could not deliver more and he left. He then was involved with someone else before he left. He will leave that person too, as soon as he is threatened to give more. We are not seeing them as the children that they are because their chronological age is blinding us all. They are not their chronological age that our eyes see, they are the stunted spiritual age of the child that our hearts see. I believe God (uses us) guides them to us, so that our spirits at the growth where we are … can grow from our pain they cause us and figure this out for others in society to understand. This is God’s plan for us. Who is any of us to question God. It is on God’s time frame, not man’s time frame for when we learn anything.

Hence why God used E. Tolle to write the book now and not 50 years or 100 years ago. Because it is God’s time to unfold this information. Not ours.

You are on a spiritual journey that God has designed for you. You need to stop thinking on the human perspective and human terms. Do not view what you are doing from the human thinking terms … ask God for guidance and he will provide this for you.



To Wini,
I agree with you as far as them living according to their age. They don’t mature in the spiritual sense, as to go from milk to meat. They don’t put away their spiritual toys and come into the real world. I know from my husband’s talk the only thing he ever looked forward to was retiring, because that would mean he wouldn’t have to work and he could just sit. He wanted to do what his dad did. He’s 15 yrs. older, but to him that meant he was the wiser and everyone should concede to his wishes. He just didn’t get it, because he didn’t want it. Wisdom and maturity doesn’t come with age.

You rather hit the nail on the head as far as him marrying. I think, too, that he only married me to get everyone off his back. He told me when we were going together that men in his family and those he worked with, would question his sexual orientation. Maybe deep inside he’s gay, but for saving face, he’d never admit it. I just know that nothing made a difference to him.

Actually he didn’t leave me for another physically, but I think somewhere deep within, he was kind of in love with his sister in law, but could never express it. His voice would change when he even said her name. I just know, too, that I brought out all the mean and nasty in him.( He was one of the emotionally unavailable ones. Probably commitment phobic, too.) And in our despair, God is the One we turn to for answers. I’ve read a quote that says we aren’t humans on a spiritual journey but spirits on a human journey, working our way back to God. It’s inevitable that we all are going to die. It just doesn’t make sense to have to live with so much drama, when we should be rejoicing in God and seeking His face throughout our earthly existence.

I’ve found that some just don’t want to face the thought of eternity. My husband, along with many family members face their past. That’s all they talk about. I always figured as long as they look back, they don’t have to face the reality of what’s ahead.

There is a condition, and I’m not sure of the correct word, but it’s where a person’s mind stops growing. Like when there is a death or tragedy, there mind doesn’t go beyond that point. Even though their body ages, the mind stopped. I think that’s what happened with him. His stopped when his mother died and he just can’t get beyond that point. He will still break down mentioning her name and she died in 63. I think there was a happening in his past that had something to do with her, but his loyalty and pride prevents him from bringing it up. But I couldn’t reach him. He always resented me so much and I hear the stories here, and for some reason there’s something in all of us that causes the one we are with to react in a negative way. Maybe we do remind them of their mother and they want to be mothered and not wifed. It’s all speculation as we can’t see in their hearts. We just listen to what comes out of their mouths, watch their actions, and try and determine if what they do and say is who they are. All I know is they sure cause a lot of chaos.

I’ve always known that God has been behind all the happenings in my life. I prayed for truth for so long. He brought me truth, but it wasn’t what I expected, but truth never is. I’ve heard too, that when we seek God, He gives us eyes to see what He does. We are working hand in hand with Him. In the end it’s all about Him and not us, as far as being humans are concerned. I think, too, that all the emotions in us, are really for His benefit and not ours. It’s to bring us to a better understanding of our spiritual walk. In our brokenness we will seek Him if we know Him, if not it will seek other directives. I like the phrase, abiding in Him. It speaks of such sweet communion, and I sometimes think, we try and get that from our mates. But if they aren’t in touch with their inner selves, we can’t communicate on a spiritual level.

I know for me, I wanted to be that help meet that God talks of in Genesis. Unless someone is following the guidelines that God set forth, they are the ones looking at everything from a human perspective. They are strictly involved in the physical aspects of living. What they can see and touch. All the tangible. Communication breaks down and suddenly there is a gulf that can’t be spanned. Unless and until they find their spiritual self and acknowledge their needs. Not for human food and sustenance, but Holy. My interpretation from my experience.


To apt/mgr:

Funny you should mention pride. I’m hearing everyone this week talk about pride and it’s only Wednesday.

This is what I got via e-mail today regarding PRIDE.

Talk about God paying attention to what we say and do!

Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded … Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

James 4:8, 10

Last time we saw how PRIDE causes opposition between you (all of us) and God.
It causes a rift, a gap.
But what is pride. Really, what is pride?
Why is PRIDE such a dangerous and deadly emotion?
Simply put, PRIDE is SIN. And God can have nothing to do with sin.

So often we shy away from that word, sin. We try to make it sound better by saying, “mistake,” “issue” or “struggle.” Rarely do we call it what it really is. But to discover the life that God has for us, we have to admit our sin. Rather than laughing off our “mistakes,” James challenges us here to admit our sin, mourn over our sin and fall humbly before God because of our sin.

Sin is a serious issue. So serious in fact, that it cost God the life of his only Son, Jesus Christ. But the good news is that your sin doesn’t have to come between you and God. When you admit to God that you are a sinner; when you fall humbly before him, thank him for the gift of his Son and ask him for forgiveness; then “he will lift you up.”

No longer will you have to be ashamed of your sin. No longer will your sin keep you from experiencing all that God has in store for you. No longer will you be separated from him. Instead, God will pick you up, restore your spirit and guide you on a path to experiencing a life that is beyond anything you could ever imagine!

Dear God, I know that my sin has separated me from you.
I admit to you that I have sinned.
I ask you for forgiveness.
I fall humbly at your feet and know that through Jesus, you will help me to experience a life I never dreamed possible.
Thank you for that gift.
In Jesus’ name I pray, AMEN.

Peace to every one.


To Wini and all,
I’m rather naive when it comes to man/woman relationships, even though I’m long in the tooth, but to those here who’ve had productive and non productive relationships, did you feel genuine long lasting passion for your mate, and even in spite of what he/she did, you could still feel that passion? I know this sounds rather archaic, but sometimes that passion made me feel out of control. I want to feel passion for Christ and all that pertains to Him, and sometimes I felt disloyal that my passion for another human being was over-shadowing my love and loyalty to God.

Is that kind of passion for the one you love, but doesn’t love you, a sin? Could it just be lust masquerading itself as passionate love? I’ve known quite a lot of people who fall in and out of love. I have to question that kind of love. I know it’s possible to love someone without passion but what part does passion play in a real relationship? I didn’t have a positive relationship to be able to do a comparison, but just thought I’d ask of those with more experience. Like you Oxy, who had a real relationship with your husband. I’m not asking for details, but just wondering what part passion plays in the relationship. Like really being turned on and wanting to consummate that feeling. Do you here find that so or is that just lust?

Apt. Mgr.

I was thinking about love and this very question yesterday.I plan on blogging on it.

I have had that same issue : How can I love God above all else?

It seemed impossible, but I realized we are called to do that because anything else is venerating a false god. I plan on expanding upon this thought- but I realized and subsequent reading bolstered my bview, that we cannot be spiritually healthy loving anyone more than god.

It’s called idolatry. As far as passion – I think much of it is lust, and that real love is the stuff that is not easy to quantify but you know when you have it, it’s like when we have peace with God.

I am happily married, and I’d call love ever-present and passion that stuff that ignites when we have sleep and time!


I tend to agree with you, too. Just wanted another’s opinion. There are so many different trains of thought. I think the sexual appetite is one of our strongest emotions we have and it is an emotion. It’s a physical one, and I know so many in the world have to keep that appetite fed because they seem to think if they don’t use it they will lose it. That’s not the case. It’s about self control. But I, too, think that anything that takes precedence in our minds, pushes God away, unless He’s in the midst.

Paul said he wished everyone were like him and stayed single, but he said it’s better to marry than to burn with passion. I’ve kind of stood alone as far as my thinking goes, but I can’t adhere to something that leaves God out completely. I think, too, that a lot of people marry just to make sex legal, but they don’t know a thing about love. I think, too, before the fall, sex was a beautiful act, but sin brought lust. It’s being confused all the time.

When sex kills, it’s all wrong. When it’s used to make money, it’s for the wrong reason. But some do call that passion. I can understand why those who walk in darkness just feed all their appetites without thinking of consequences.

But you are one of the lucky ones. You and Donna must be the only ones who are happy in marriage. Can you bottle your secret and sell it?!! I think if the husband knows his place in God’s order and is committed to Him, he has no problem committing to a woman. Just my thought.


Hi I hope my name doesnt affend anyone but I am new at this site and just amazed at the experiences. I went through and all of yours I just cant imagine all the heartbreak but I am so happy I have found you all.

My episode just happened in Novemeber 26th I ended up with a total nervous break down.

Here is a brief overview of my nightmare…I am sure you will all understand in one way or the other.

I dont even know how to cut it down any less its so bazarre

Wall Street, Money, Wealth, Hedge Funds, Narcissism, Lies, Adultery, and Addiction.
I was with a man for 7 years that was warm loving and giving told me of his life of a being a Navy Seal, worked for Goldman Saks and successfully took many large clients away from them to start his own Hedge Fund. Talked of working with Microsoft big wigs to build his Fund. The Fund was up in running in the late 90’s and was going great only to be taken by some of his partners that wiped him out and left the county, 2 were never found but one is still in jail in New York.

Talked of a child hood of beatings from an Alcoholic father and treated like a slave to manage the family farm at the age of 7.

After 5 years with him and the ups and downs of jobs failed VC deals and little or no income from him but always promises he was able to start a fund with a big time Texan Oil Millionaire. They made a deal for him to use the private jet and had a list of the elite and an entourage to raise over 400 million in capital over a year period while traveling extensively, didn’t come home for weeks sometimes he was playing the market during the day and traveling to sometimes 10 states on the weekend to meet potential clients. I was his biggest cheerleader. He was the best and beating all the numbers for all the Hedge Funds we were on our way and had told me he had got his respect on Wall Street.

He met with the biggest names on the Forbes list and he was highly respected, talked about helicopter rides, big ranches, Big money, and having an office in Houston.

The Marlin Fund started with 50 million in Feb 2007 it was a thrill, only to have the SEC come and shut him down as there was money transferred from an offshore account they held it up for months as the FBI and SEC investigated then Homeland Security was involved and they were in the office asking questions for months.

He also had a small fund and he was doing great also he was up over 200% he came back to town and we would meet with the clients and have wonderful dinners and work on many VC deals.
The fund finally got up and running the SEC lifted the hold and the Marlin Fund launched in July of 2007. Not long after him reaching over 600 million in capital he went to wire some money to buy a bank in Scottsdale only to find the wire never got there he ran out to ask where the girl was that did the transfer and she had a family emergency and had to leave suddenly. He immediately called the FBI and they traced her to NY and She had left there and went to Germany they picked her up there and she wasn’t talking she took over 5 million from us personally so all our assets were frozen and he was sweating it.

He flew back that night but he felt horrible for the clients that we were buying into the bank as they never got there money.

Finally in October 2007 we found a house we wanted to buy we moved forward it was in a high end neighborhood on a golf course my dream house so we signed a contract and we were to close October 16th. The money was still tied up because the FBI and they were investigating everyone in Texans office to see who else was involved in the wire transfer. So we decided to move in on a lease purchase. We were so happy we had everyone over for Thanksgiving to share our excitement of his success. Then November 26th came he left early in the morning to go to the accountant to wire the money for the house so we could close and he was wiring money to the investors of the small fund to close it down. He never came home that night I called his partner and he had not heard from either finally at 8 pm he texted us to say he needed 48 hours. Nothing was adding up so the next morning I remembered in his security code for his phone bill and printed out the numbers and found there were no phone numbers to TX and started calling the numbers that were on the list and made a contact with a Viv and I asked how she new him she said I am his girlfriend and I said I AM HIS WIFE. Only to find out he never went to Texas he was only going down the street to her house.

There was no Big fund no traveling and no forbes people he lied to 2 years.

I had to move out of the million dollar house in 3 days I had no home no money and no job. thus nervoud break down.

He on the other hand had a place his girlfriends he is now still with her….

He is also being charged with fraud and embezzelment!


How in the world do you ever trust again?

I hope all of you can help by reading your stories and suggestions

I am happy to be here.


Ox Drover

Dear Areyoukiddingme,

Your con man was a high roller obviously but they lie and lie and lie and build houses of cards that come tumbling down. The live in fantasy and la-la land, always manuvering.

You aren’t the only one who has been scammed and you won’t be the last, he will continue to scam people until the day he dies. Unfortunately, you got shafted totally, and were unaware of what was going on.

They lie so well,a nd separate people in their lives so that people don’t talk and put 2 and 2 together to make 4.

I have no doubt that the last few months have been a night mare for you, and I do hope that you have some family and friends that are supportive of you. I think most of us have had “nervous breakdowns” if that means being confused, hurting, crying our eyes out, feeling betrayed and abandoned, and wondering how we are ever going to get through so much pain.

There is healing, and it will take time and be painful, I won’t lie to you there, but you are a STRONG woman, and you have POWER, and you trusted and were betrayed, but you can come back, I promise you that. Read and read and read and learn about the psychopaths. The more you know, the more power you will have. Knowledge is power and strength! God bless you.


dear areyoukiddingme

i understand exactly what your going though, as iam still going though it. we are all here for support to help you. they lie so well, that it doest even faze them, and when you catch them in the lie, they turned it around with another lie or story.

Im here if you need to talk.


To areyoukiddingme:

Welcome to the club? Everyone on this site will help you during your time of pain and confusion. We all have the same story to tell just different names, places, players. But, it is all the same. Cheer up, brighter days will come your way and everyone’s way.

Peace to your heart. Remember, at least you have a heart. We all have loving hearts. Thank God for small favors. It could have been worse, someone could be writing about us NOT having a loving heart, not being honest and the rest of the saga. What am I say … of course they are trashing us. I keep forgetting why we are all here. Earth to Wini.


I was just wondering, what is it about Texas? They all flee to Texas after doing their damage in other states. I feel for the real Texan’s down there that have so many of “them” running rampant.

Loving god involes self-sacrifice, real sacrifice- going without fo rothers an din silence while putting on a “good face.” It’s depending on no man (human being) for our happiness.

No it is not easy, and sounds insane I know. But once you accept the reality of God, the Angels and Saints, the Blessed Virgin Mother it is a clear path.

Here’s an excellent book:

And faith is not a blind acceptance- it’s a process and a sober and thoughtful consent. Love of God is polar opposite to narcissism; God is ever there and loving, narcissists….well we know.


Hello areyoukiddingme, Doesn’t matter how many times we say unbelievable does it? These P’s are unbelievable. Their stuff is so FANTASTIC, ie, a fantasy, that it is beyond a normal persons scope to see it all as lies.

I am six months out of a 27 yr relationship with a classic. Boy was he smooth, self contained, and his mask of being SUCH a caring family man.

Despite all the HORROR stories I uncovered just before and after the split, where I discovered that my whole life with him had been a lie, right down to his sexual orientation, despite processing all that..I am STILL discovering more stuff, fraud, forgery, etc.

But here is the rub. We had a legitimate business, a really good real estate project, that I designed, concieved etc etc. It was real, and doing fine. But you know what? That was too dull apparently. Because he chose to DESTROY it with his nonsense.

I now discover he was stealing from the company etc, etc. Everything he has done always was driven by his own secret agenda, and it was always shady.

I take some comfort in the fact that sooo many people were taken in by his charm and his aura of extra special decent etc.
I know I ingnored lots of red flags bacause he had me in a box, (on purpose), and because I strongly believed in keeping our family together.

What is still so galling tho, is that when he had me selling assets to buy groceries, had me worrying about the mortgage every month, etc, he was rolling in the looted funds. Bought a Ferrari no less.

He had me thinking we were broke to keep me his slave, too fearful to leave etc.

I finally bailed even tho I had NO SECURITY at all. At that point I knew if I didn’t my mental or physical health would collapse.

Anyhow, I am so much better now, away from his crisis making. I can think clearly for myself. I am sorting out how to move forward. I am free. I experience joy and happiness, without his dark cloud over me.

And what is he doing? Best I can tell spinning more lies and nonsense, aimlessly spiralling tighter and tighter into a descent that looks like sheer madness. What a tragic waste.

Aside from my two wonderful sons, I do thank him for some good experiences and some years of thinking I was loved, that I had a “good man”. One of the biggest gifts, which I earned for myself, was learning to be alone. Being with him was just like being alone, as he was a ghost, a fake, and on some level I knew it. He was never really “present”.

I am now totally content to be alone, I don’t even question if I will or won’t find “the right guy” etc. If he finds me, that’s great. But right now I am enjoying my solitude, my freedom to do as I please, a break from “taking care” of someone. I am “present” and it is a joy.

So, all you fellow survivors, there is hope, there is not only life, but joy after the P.

Peace to all,


thank you thank you thank you eyeswideshut

I am to only out a relationship 6months I was with him 7 total years.
Funny you say you thought you were loved til this day it is hard for me to realize there was no love he was sure convincing but you cant love and live 2 lives or love and steal or love and lie.
They say stuff about being a co-dependent well I think we are all lovely women with warm hearts (and men)and are TRUE and because of that this is the result.

Well i was alone with someone and I am alone now and there are no more emotional roller coaster rides…

I still sometimes feel I am in shock and I cant work to my full capacity and i pray everyday for strength and power I have some days where I feel I get my power back and then….

the thought of a date right now not!
I am trying to enjoy me and finding out what i want. I read all the books on Psychopathy but I still am confused, do they feel are they mentally duranged, do they feel remorse, It is just hard foe me to wrap myself around it all.

We will never know why we stayed I guess he was so wonderful we thought!

Ox Drover

Dear Areyoukiddingme,

As a veteran of the Psychopathic wars, won’t go into detail but had a P-fio father, a P-mother, a P-son (in Prison) a P-DIL who tried to hill my son, her husband, and her P-BF that I call the Trojan Horse P as he infiltrated my family for the purpose of killing me—and after my husband died, I started dating a P—so I’ve had my share and lots of other’s shares as well. LOL

It IS difficult to relate to the fact that they do what they do without CONSCIENCE. They know right from wrong, but feel it doesn’t apply to THEM. It applies to YOU, but NOT them.

Some, of course are worse than others, some smarter than others, and some more EVIL than others, but none of them are capable of love. Most are GOOD at holding up a MASK to keep you from realizing what they are, just like any good predator tries to keep you unafraid before they pounce on you for the “kill”–literally or figuratively.

We also, most of us, blame ourselves for ignoring the RED FLAGS that warned us “something isn’t right”—but we explain those little hints away, and don’t use our own instincts that sense “something is not right.” I am guilty on all counts.

Even when I KNEW what was going on, it was so hard to let go. I beat myself up for staying when I knew. I beat myself up for not setting appropriate boundaries. But that is over now. (for the most part)

I am safe, I am warm and well fed so LIFE IS GOOD. 99% of the time I am happy and productive again, and I am learning about ME and how to set boundaries and not feel guilty, and how to distinguish between people who love me and people who don’t. I am no longer willing to have people intimately assocaited with me in any kind of relationship who are not caring and truthful. Why put up with it? It will only bring pain.

Healing is a journey not a destination and there will always be more to learn, but once you get out of the ACUTE PAIN phase, it does get easier. It takes TIME and EFFORT, learning and thinking time. No one can do it but you, but we are here for you, to support you as others have been here to comfort and support us when we “fell down” on the path to recovery.

Glad you are here! It will get better. That I can promise you!


Dear areyoukiddingme:

They have emotions but no one can get through to those emotions. They have built a wall so high and so thick, that no one can penetrate it. They have to undergo intensive therapy for years to undue the damage that was done to them (whether real or imagined) it doesn’t matter. If it’s physical damage done to them as children, it’s beyond horrific. The child protects themselves by shutting down their emotions. If it’s imaginary, and what I mean by this … a reprimand by an adult at a young age, and then the child’s ego took off and had a life of it’s own and didn’t have a chance to absorb the reprimand for what is was … the ego now blocks everything (that’s the wall they started building at a young age) … never taking righteous paths to learn God’s lesson, never acquiring any tools to use in life (God’s tools and lessons learned to all of us every time we take a righteous path). So, from a young age, they live in their egos and the ego walls off their emotions. Hence, they are walking, talking zombies. They’re very intelligent too. Imagine yourself living in a bubble. The rest of the world can’t touch you, hold you, play with you. Everything you do is on an intellectual level. You see what’s going on, but you can’t feel it because you have this bubble that you’re sitting in. Except, their imaginary bubble gets to go outside and play, they are not stationdary. They walk like ducks, talk like ducks, but they aren’t ducks. Not until some mental health professional(s) can work with them intensively for years, some how get their trust (that’s the big problem, they don’t trust anyone after the very first infraction) and step by step get them through the process of feeling again. Big, long situation facing anyone like them. Too many years and hours of therapy to get through one break through. When they act out. It’s a child’s temper tantrum acting out. They are showing us their frustration that they hate living the way the live. They don’t understand why they can’t feel like us, be happy like us, laugh and feel good. They only mimmick feelings and emotions. They’re not stupid people. Over the years, they watch what works with people and what doesn’t. That’s how they blend in so well. When you are left and damaged, that is their signature mark of being frustrated, that you too, couldn’t cure them. We can’t give how we feel to other people. We can only share with others … not give over to others. They don’t understand this. So everyone they run into they are hoping for that miracle, hoping this or that person will miraculously get them to feel. Only God can do this for them. They have to put both feet on the paths of the righteous roads in life, do the work, learn the lessons life has to offer, get the light of life from God. There is no short cuts. But anti-social personalities, for whatever reason from their childhoods, walled their emotions off (as protection) from the rest of the world. Protection of what and how only a child’s mind can do. This started from a child’s mentality, not an adult mentality. That’s why it takes so much out of a mental health professionals to work with them. It is exhausting because of the high intelligence of the individual a professional is working with. That’s why now, mental health professionals know they are dealing with children, instead of the chronological age of the patient. They have to focus on the child and not the physical adult staring back at them and playing their mind games on them daily. Can the professionals get them to trust everyone? Can they stay on track doing the one step at a time practice of working their way back into the feeling world? Most anti-socials throw their hands in the air and say, the heck with it, I don’t have time for this therapy because it’s not working. And they are off down the unrighteous path again.

Best thing to do is to read “A New Earth” by Tolle. To get yourself to that peaceful place again. Pamper yourself right now. You can also log onto and download Tolle’s detailed explanations about the 10 chapters in his book. He’s very healing to your soul. Log in, give yourself a password and review all the info Oprah has left on line to heal us. She knows we all have to understand what is on there. The more people that read Tolle and the others on there, the quicker our entire world will heal.



Good post, Wini


A good potted description Wini, as usual. I totally agree. My exN openly admitted he had ‘brick walls’ and it was evident just by looking at him. A rigidity and unyielding attitude and steely stare, that said ”dont cross me, dont enter my domain’. He had been badly abused as a child, taking the physical punishment from his dad in place of his sisters (men dont hit women in his world). I asked him to tell me his story, he wouldnt, he sent me to see his sister and he said she would tell me some details. He couldnt even face telling me himself. When she told me two events, I cried for ages, it was so painful and I even went to see a priest (I have never ever done that before) and he said to me, that man is living a life of pain (pain body), keep away from him.

I rose to the challenge, I wanted to make life good for him, now more than ever, but he didnt want to talk. When I gave him an article on anger (he had ALOT of buried anger), he returned it saying that he solves his own problems. What I came to realise was that he had turned his anger on me, and that somewhere he despised me and was acting passively angry towards me. I ‘knew’ he was a thinker and I used to say to him, dont bury your thoughts, come and talk to me, but he didnt, and I sensed that some of his thoughts were toxic and were eating away at him.

His shadow side (pain body) was in full flow as though it had taken on a life of its own, it was very very devious and cunning and I tried to outwit it. But he gave me the evidence of his cheating, as though saying ‘Im ten steps ahead of you, this is what I can do’. I couldnt believe it, I was so naieve, why would he give me a phone with the womens phone numbers on it, he must have made a mistake, not checked the phone before he gave it to me. Then the awful realisation set in that this was a set up and then I started to see him for what he really was. He had to be in control all of the time, his former pain would not allow him to take down those walls. In intimate relationships is where you get hurt, he couldnt risk that.


Dear Beverly:

The first obnoxious personality I got involved with (or at least that I knew was obnoxious) was after my divorce. Long story short, when I found out what I was dealing with I kept him at arms length – friend category. Never to be romantically involved with him again. He was my first roller coaster ride. Not fun. Anyway, he was like a bad penny, would not go away. I’d ask him a question, he’d disappear for 8 months to a year, show up at my home, and give me his answer. This went on for a few years, my asking him a question, he taking off and then returning months later to tell me the answer. I finally told him, do you realize you answer me a year later any question that I ask you. He said, yeah, you put these questions in my head and they nag at me until I have to come back and give you my answer. Anyway, this guy was years of therapy answered in a few years. His answers that I am explaining to everyone.

They size us up in 10 seconds or less. Whether we are giving and loving versus the female versions of themselves.

They constantly have more than one woman going at the same time … and, always with a home base person in place. Because, if anyone knew what they were truly all about, they’d run for the hills, so they need the other relationships going on the back burner so when the main lady throws them out, they have a place to go.

They know and have played any game that you could ever come up with before you think about using it on them, so don’t bother trying to make them jealous or come back to you. Just be truthful and stay a friend.

If we had done anything to them that they do to us, they’d never take us back. They wouldn’t even think of coming back and have no clue why women give them a second chance. (of course they don’t know that love does this, no concept of love).

They will tell you anything, at any time, to get whatever it is that they want from anyone. Everyone is free game to them.

Mmmmmm, I haven’t seen him since 1990 since I moved from the last place where he knew he could find me. I’ve seen his sisters and they’ve told me how he is, but I figure I better not let him know where my house is … then I’d have to sell it and move.


If I can remember what else he told me that will benefit anyone, I’ll write updates.


I believe for us that time is the only true healer. Thru time we will go thru many stages of grief, lost and emotional pain.

Some for me were:

Dealing with the thought that nothing I could do would have change the outcome and also learning that when giving, compromising and personal sacrifice that never would be enough in these type of dysfunctional relationships. And that in reality there really isn’t any other way.

Regaining one’s self-esteem and respect. Something most of us lose sight of.

Learning again to trust, love and care for other but still acknowledging that these actions may be cause of future personal emotional pain. Learning that this is just part of life and the price we all pay in one form or another. But also learning and understanding emotional “damage control”. Trusting again but with the understanding that others are “more’ trustworthy then some. Loving again but this time only accepting love that is given unconditionally. Giving again but with the understanding and expectation that we will be given back in return.

Only with time, understanding and our personal knowledge of any relationship can we then grow and mature. That in reality, this is the only way that any person will grow.



What you said is profound. The lessons learned from game players is to get to a place of compassion where we can pray that they find their way back to God’s love so the games no longer have to be played. To fear their source of life is constantly spinning their wheels, when they can be living the best possible life they were meant to live.

To waste their lives, and therefore, others lives, is beyond comprehension. It is their ego along with their fears that perpetuate this irrational thinking.


Dear Wini & all. I think they set up other ‘targets’ because they know from past performance that the relationship, wont last, so they have plan B in action. Plan A is being on your own and licking your wounds – yet again!!

Yes, they dont recognise we take them back out of love – they think we are weak because we take them back – because they loathe themselves and then they start disrespecting us. I think that was how it went for me.

As for answering questions a year apart, I just think he was making you leave the door open for his return. Hmmmm



They all have these incredible stories. I wonder how many are true. Either way, I find it incredible that the only thing I thought about while growing up was reading what I liked to read, dressing the way I wanted to dress, hanging out with all my friends who were creative and artistic in their own rights, having older brothers and sisters of all my friends being willing to take us here or there (prior to us getting our licenses), swimming, sports, dances, roller skating parties, keg parties, camping, renting cottages, hanging out at the beach/lakes/mountain areas, going to the cities (Boston or NYC), trips to , VT, NH, ME (My favorite, mmmh mmmh LOBSTERS and CLAMS) Niagra Falls, Canada, California, Florida, New Jersey Casinos, all the shorelines on the East Coast, Cape Cod, trips to Europe, here and there and everywhere. I was active, my friends were all active … then we meet these guys and it’s what???????? So you think your going to blend your lifestyles together, both enjoying each other’s company, intoducing them to your friends and vice versa, meeting new friends and couples together, new co-workers, old co-workers, the family, the cousins, the siblings … so what is the problem here? Everything ends up being a joke before anything ever started?


To everyone:

I don’t know about all of you. But, I’ve been burned before. And I never, ever, would not even think about burning the next person I got involved with. NEVER – EVER – PERIOD – NO QUESTIONS ASKED. Just take it on the chin and move on. But, these characters, it’s like they’ve got this vengence thing going before we ever met them (actually, I think they hate their mothers and the rest of the women they met, they are always getting back at mommy for not powdering their butts as much as they wanted, because mommy had 3 more kids to take care of —- couldn’t drop everything for the little KING. Then they have the nerve to pretend that we victimized them to the next woman they take off with. And, we’re considered the weaker sex? HA. Double HA. I think they should change how boys and girls are raised in the next few years. Reverse it. Sounds more like it. Then we wouldn’t be as confused as we are today.


I think guys and women who are like this just use everyone as a stepping stone. Not caring who we are, just … step … step … step. Big users and abusers ALL OF THEM. Why have to go out with so many people? What’s your hurry? Where are you going? How many people do you have to burn through to get there? And if and when you get there? Then what?


Agreed Wini, my exN had a simmering anger towards his mother, for not protecting him against the vicious attacks by his father. I asked him a good question ‘What do you think of women generally?’. He said ‘All women are manipulative’. When he said that I winced, because I realised that he had a deep down aversion to women.


Dear Beverly:

I met my exs parents when they were in their late 80’s. By that time in life, most jerky parents calm down. So they looked perfectly normal to me. My mom died in August of 1999. John and I started dating the previous fall (late fall) the year before. His parent never got to meet my mom and they both came and paid their respects at her wake and showed for her funeral. To me, that is respectful personalities.

My ex told me that when he and his brother were kids (probably around 7,8 or 9) they were horsing around in the neighbor’s garden throwing (either) tomatoes or pumpkins (I forgot what it was, but it was late in the season). The neighbor went to his parents front door and complained. His mom called both boys in and reprimanded them for damaging the neighbor’s garden. So for a full year after the brothers raked the yard, or mowed the lawn or shoveled the walk and drive, they had to repeat it at this neighbors for a full year. That’s pretty extreme for messing up a neighbor’s garden. But, my ex never talked about what the real damage was either. Then several times during family discussions, his mom just stood in the background when my ex talked with them. She wouldn’t say a word. His dad would answer and have the conversation. His mom never said yes or no. So she sounds like those women that let her husband have the say and she just goes along with whatever her husband does. Which would drive me up a wall, not having my say in anything. So it must have driven my ex crazy. Not having a mom to stand up for him (either way). Maybe there’s more to this … I don’t know. Like I explained, they were elderly when I met them. Big difference of meeting parents in their prime years than elderly years. When his mom passed in 2006, he flew back into the state (was to be working out of state … and you can guess the rest of this saga) for the wake/funeral. He was normal at the wake, normal through mot of the funeral. The graveside he forced these tears to shed while we were standing under the tent in the cold, nasty drab rainy April day. Felt more like a February day in New England than a early Spring day. He actually faked tears and remorse at his mom’s graveside. I remember the day he walked in the day of the wake … throws me on the bed … I couldn’t get over this. I thought I was going to witness this depressed person being very somber and down hearted. I remember both my parents death and funeral arrangements. I didn’t crack a smile or really laugh for at least 3 months after they died. Never mind do anything else. I did find it weird that he wanted sex the night he flew in. That was the first tip off … he got married to the woman down in Texas when he returned after the funeral (another business trip) … some time that fall, they married. Late November he’s still discussing marriage with me. The rest is history. Anyway, I tried to warn her. I feel so sorry for her. I hope she has close family and friends. She is going to need them. My heart goes out to her. she has no clue what she in for.



I think my ex had a certain type of anger towards his mother also even though he declared that she was his hero. She lived in another state and the phone was their chief source of communication. The first conversation I ever overheard between the two of them really troubled me because they actually talked “baby talk” to each other! EVERY conversation was the same–he’d even revert to calling her “Mommy” as though he was a small child! I didn’t quite understand their relationship because in my opinion he should have held some pretty strong feelings of resentment towards her.

Within five minutes of mine and his very first conversation, he revealed to me that his father had molested him. He said that he had forgiven his father as this behavior was totally out of character. He said his father “lost his mind” when his mother left him for what he later learned to be another man. My ex, around 14 at the time, came home from school and his mother was simply gone. He said that he and his younger brother thought they had done something to make her want to leave. They didn’t even know her whereabouts for months. It was shortly afterwards that his father was going to soothe him in order to get him to sleep so he did it by performing oral sex on him! The father later remarried a woman who had 2 young daughters. My ex, around 15 by this time molested the little girls ages 8 and 10. He said it was mostly touching and certainly no intercourse. However, it was my ex’s father who ended up spending time in jail for molesting the little girls. It was during this time that my ex’s mother later learned that his father supposedly molested him in addition to the young girls. She INSISTED that my ex forgive him because he was his father and forgiveness is what we are “expected” to do. I was already married to him when I learned the stories of the little girls and tried to justify my ex’s role in it as childish curiosity but later learned that he had been accused of inappropriate behavior with a 12 year old when he was in his early 20s and after having become a father himself. I’m wondering if all these things are what messed his head up where women are concerned. He seems to have sex and love confused. The sex has to be there for him at least once a day or he says he doesn’t feel loved–says he needs the attention. He even told his new girlfriend that he wanted sex at least once a day and asked her if it would be a “problem”. She told me that she told him “no” as she is a very sexual person. My ex is 40 years old! He’s not a kid with raging hormones.


Dear Tami:

This is a shame. Both parents weren’t available for your ex. Baby talk with his mom is a control issue on the mom’s part and the father should be put away for the rest of his life.

I worked with someone that was arrested in work for sexually assaulting his two little daughters. Handcuffed and taken out in a paddy wagon. Big scene at our place of employment. I was on vacation at the Cape when it happened. I arrived 3 weeks later and everyone was still talking about it like it happened the day before.

Years prior to this co-workers arrest, he always made time for me over the weekends or week nights to help me with my programming (I was in the beginning classes for COBOL, FORTRAN etc. for Computer Systems degree). He was a seasoned programmer were I worked. The guy bent over backwards helping me get my programs running (code and actually running) for me. When you program, you have to have many tech to look up exactly what code is going to be used. We’d burn the midnight oil until the wee hours in the morning getting my programs for my next class completed. There were times we wouldn’t finish up until an hour before work started the next day. Never once did his 2 girls act out, act funny, strange, shy or cry, complain, not a thing did I notice out of the ordinary. They were just lovable little girls, coming into the kitchen when I’d first arrive, saying hi. Sitting on their dad’s lap or standing next to him. Nothing unusual. Then their father (my co-worker) would tell them to go in to the living room to play with their toys or dolls or whatever they were playing with at the time. Both children were extremely happy, well adjusted children. There was never anything inappropriate with anything I saw when I was over there. His wife would be leaving as I arrived and tell me things like “hey sweetheart, have a nice time”. Then she’d leave for her date. I just assumed they were divorced. Then a few weeks later he started confiding in me saying his wife had a boyfriend etc. That they were staying together while the girls were little. Not once, did he make a play for me or act out in any way. Then to find out years later she had him arrested for molesting his little girls. I never knew if it were TRUTH or an ex getting back at her then husband. He’s currently married to another woman that worked with us. Both retired now. Both still married. You just never know what is really going on behind closed doors.

Did you find this out about your husband and his family before or after you were married?

The not be a kid with raging hormones is not real. He is acting this way, not feeling this way. It’s all show. He thinks that is what women want … so he gives you what you think you want.


My ex P told me a lot about his abusive past as well.
He was beated and his dad was an alcohlic that failed at everything, he moved everyone constantly and my ex at 7 had to run the farm before and after school. But with all the lies I dont know what true and what isnt.
The parents supposidly
Stole his sheep heard and used the money
would never guy his clothes
he had to work all the time at the garage and never got a pat on the back for anything. he was always always trying to get them to say great job and I never saw it his parents always fought with him about everything.
His sister did tell me there were beatings and he got it the worst.(so I know that wasnt a lie)
I thought this was maybe why he exaggerated stories because he never got attention and I thought I could help him by telling him we love for who you are not what you do.

He would exaggerate at parties and I would get so mad at him when we left and I would say why did you exaggerate and he said I dont know. I didnt know how bad all of this really was until I found out all the other lies.

But i do belive he had a terrible childhood with a controlling demanding father that never said good job son…

He always talked about it even til the last day he told me my mom came and told me they were sorry that they were wrong and she wished she would had been better to him (lie)

Lovefraud is being upgraded. Comments and forum posts are temporarily disabled. Dismiss

Send this to a friend