By | November 18, 2010 59 Comments

Isiah Thomas A Sociopath?

Who is Isiah Thomas? For the uninitiated, he was a great college and NBA basketball player, a “hall of fame” legend. If you want to see how superior Isiah Thomas the basketball player was, just go to YouTube, punch in his name and watch the highlight footage that speaks for itself.

In short, Thomas was an electrifying, all-time great point guard and champion at every level at which he competed—from high school, to Indiana University where, precociously, he led the Hoosiers to an NCAA basketball title, to the Detroit Pistons, whose NBA misfortunes he somewhat singlehandedly changed, immediately, after the Pistons drafted him out of college.

Thomas subsequenty led the Pistons to consecutive NBA championships in the 1990’s.

What is less acknowledged about Isiah Thomas is just how seriously narcissistic a personality he is, and possibly how sociopathic he is. It is not that his misdeeds (on, but mostly, off) the court, since his retirement, haven’t been well-chronicled. There was his infamous “dissing” of Michael Jordan at the NBA All-Star Game in the early 90’s, where he organized a “freeze-out” of the great, rising superstar, in effect assuring that Jordan would lack chances to shine during the game.

Continuing his Jordan fixation, Thomas next orchestrated, again passive-aggressively, his team’s “walk off the court” rebuffing of Jordan and the Chicago Bulls after the Bulls defeated the Pistons in the Eastern Conference Championship, a victory that signaled the Bulls’ ascendancy at the time, and the beginning of Thomas’s Pistons’ decline, as the reigning superpower in the NBA.

The power-and-control obsessed Thomas couldn’t stomach this changing of the winds and so, reflecting his emerging grandiosity, he stooped to organizing this childish protest on his way “out of power.”

Were these trifling displays of unsportsmanlike behaviors? Not really. They always presaged much more than that. They were, in fact, early signs of Thomas’ serious, pathological narcissism. Ruthless on the court, he would prove ruthlessly self-centered,  and, most tellingly, troublingly unaccountable off the court.

After retiring from an injury, Thomas assumed an executive management role with the Toronto Raptors, then an expansion NBA team. He left this position, surprise surprise, in conflict with the team’s management and dispute over its direction. Perhaps no big deal? But I note again—when we are dealing with narcissistic personality disturbances, it is the pattern that needs to be recognized, if possible, in its earliest manifestations.

Following his suspect run with the Raptors, Thomas purchased the Continental Basketball Association for roughly $10 million, leading this established NBA developmental league into bankruptcy through what many then (and have since) concluded was his extraordinarily incompetent, reckless mismanagement.

Thomas never owned his responsibility, not a shred of it, for the demise of the CBA. Rather, his abdication of responsibility for the messes he’s made has become a theme in his post-NBA career.

After an undistinguished run, next, as head coach of the Indiana Pacers—a job opportunity he was offered (remember this!) by then Pacers President Donnie Walsh—Thomas assumed a new position as President of Basketball Operations for the New York Knicks in 2003.

Now, a newly minted Knicks executive and given a fresh dose of undeserved autonomy, Thomas commenced to running the Knicks organization like a manic day-trader, dealing players during his three-year reign in a reckless, impulsive frenzy; worse, displaying  utter, arrogant disregard for the team’s fiscal condition which he recklessly, and remorselessly, compromised.

Ultimately, he left the organization, upon his departure in 2008 (particularly with respect to its “salary cap” status) in financially disastrous ciscumstances.

Re-enter Donnie Walsh, the erstwhile Indiana Pacers executive who’d given Thomas his first NBA head-coaching opportunity. The Knicks hired Walsh, a veteran NBA executive, to undo the mess that Thomas had left. Thus, Walsh has spent the last two years undertaking the unenviable task of having to dig the team out of its financial hole, making it possible for the Knicks to compete in the free agent signing market going forward.

It should  be noted that during Thomas’ bacchanalian reign in his executive role with the Knicks, he was also accused of sexual harassment by a Madison Square Garden employee, Anucha Browne Sanders, who accused him of sexual (and non-sexual) harassment. This lawsuit was subsequently settled for $11.6 million, an immense figure for a sexual harassment suit.

To this day, Thomas has taken zero responsibility for the damage he caused the Knicks organization. Just as he denied running the CBA into financial ruin despite damning evidence that that’s precisely what he did, so he’s denied running the Knicks, during his tenure with the team, into the financial icebergs into which he indisputably ran them; and, of course, unsurprisingly, he denied any responsibility in the case of Ms. Sanders, preferring (and yes, this is my editorial position) to scapegoat her in order to protect himself.

In October of 2008, Thomas was hospitalized for an alleged overdosing of Lunesta, the sleep aid. He was reportedly found unconscious at his home, and needed emergency medical attention. Subsequently, he was alleged to have tried to “cover up” this episode by suggesting that it was his teenage daughter, not he, who was hospitalized for this incident, prompting the local police chief, who was also the investigator, to suggest that Thomas had thrown his daughter under the bus. 

In other words, it appears that Thomas may have preferred (and tried!) to deflect the unfavorable attention to himself onto his daughter, who was innocent and vulnerable. But how surprising should even this latest example of the depth of Thomas’s manipulativeness and self-centeredness have been?

After all, Thomas has thrown others in his life “under the bus.” He is reputed to have started rumors that his “best friend,” Earvin “Magic” Johnson, an all-time great NBA player, contracted the HIV virus due to what Thomas maliciously insinuated was Johnson’s bisexuality when, in fact, there wasn’t a shred of evidence to suggest Johnson was bisexual. Johnson has written of his sense of betrayal that his putative best friend drove these rumors. Their once charmingly and publicly close friendship, which was marked by the affectionate kisses they’d plant on each others’ cheeks before intense games against each other as NBA competitors, dissolved on the evidence of Thomas’s treachery.

Johnson has suggested in his biography how difficult it was for him to reconsider the character of Thomas.

Thomas’s ex-coach and Basketball Hall of Famer, Chuck Daly, of the Detroit Pistons, once observed that Thomas could leap from an airplane without a parachute and be expected to land, somehow, unhurt. Ostensibly, Daly was referring to Thomas’s admirable resilience, but what he really was identifying, whether he knew it or not, was less Thomas’s impressive resilience than his capacity to charm his way, snake his way, into one after another opportunity seemingly irrespective of the trail of damage he leaves behind.

Thomas is indisputably a very seductive, charming personality, who exudes tremendous confidence and poise. As famously, brilliantly slippery and smooth as he was on the court, he is just as much so off the court. Thomas’s grin is flawless in its projection of sincerity and playful, innocent mischievousness.

But Isiah Thomas just is not the persona he projects so effortlessly. Beneath his innocent facade is a seriously manipulative personality who has shown a pattern of behaving with defective loyalty, empathy and remorse towards those he’s hurt, damaged and exploited. 

In 2009, after resigning from his position with the Knicks, his reputation having finally taken a serious hit, Thomas finagled yet another seemingly improbable opportunity: he was offered, and accepted, the head coaching reins at Florida International University. This would be his first college head coaching opportunity at a division one school. As usual, Thomas performed flawlessly at the press conference, projecting sincere gratitude for his latest opportunity and asserting his fullest commitment to the program, its players and his future recruits. Thomas sounded as convincing as ever that this was where he belonged, where he wanted to be.

Once again, as his ex-coach Daly had admired, he had landed on his feet with a new opportunity. 

Yet before he’d barely hit the ground running, Thomas was already, according to many legitimate sources, angling for chances to return to the NBA. Hardly established in his new position as FIU’s head coach, Thomas was already self-servingly seeking opportunities to reestablish his NBA employability at the expense of (if not not behind the backs of) the school officials who had just hired, and invested their faith, in him at a time when his personal stock was devalued.

In other words, this was the gratitude Thomas showed his new employers at FIU, virtually flaunting, audaciously and without compunction or shame, his underlying agenda to network himself back in the NBA.

Recently, in an article, Thomas stated on the record that he covets his former job with the Knicks. This is the position his former mentor, Donnie Walsh, who you’ll remember offered him his first NBA head coaching job with the Indiana Pacers, presently holds. Walsh, again you will remember, has spent the last two years undoing the financial damage Thomas caused the Knicks. Yet Thomas is quoted in the article as saying that he thinks about reclaiming his former position (Walsh’s present one) “”¦every day of the week.”

Note that Thomas states this not from a position of unemployment, which would be brazen enough, but rather from his position as employed as the second-year head college basketball coach at FIU!

Howard Beck, a New York Times sports reporter who, in my opinion, has been soft on Thomas in years’ past, finally slams Thomas in a recent piece “The Alternate Universe of Isiah Thomas” (Nov. 6), in which he exposes what I will call Thomas’s sociopathic abdication of responsibility for the false and seemingly self-deluded assertions he makes about his incompetent performance as Knicks’ executive.

Let me be clear: Beck doesn’t suggest Thomas is a narcissist or sociopath. He merely outlines in the article the ways in which Thomas pathologically refuses to account for his past performance as Knicks’ executive.

Beck also addresses the extent to which Thomas holds, unflappably, if not delusionally, to his impunity for his past transgressions and to his fitness to assume new, similar, fresh responsibilities. But again, I would argue that this is less a delusional aspect of Thomas’s personality than it’s a reflection of his seriously narcissistic, even sociopathic, tendencies?

Is Thomas a confident man? Sure of himself? Resilient? Opportunistic?

Perhaps he’s all of these things, and they are qualities that can be admirable. But what Thomas also is—and which turns these admirable qualities into actually destructive ones—is seriously narcissistically personality disordered.

As someone who grew up a big-time basketball fan, and who, like many others, admired his basketball brilliance tremendously, I find it unpleasant to have to come to the conclusion that Isiah Thomas indeed has many sociopathic qualities: he is charming, glib and persuasive; yet he is disloyal, opportunistic, cunning and conniving. Moreover he can be callous and exploitive, seeming to lack empathy and a conscience.

In short, Thomas leads his life with extremely deficient levels of accountability towards those he’s hurt and betrayed.

Thomas’s track record seems to suggest that his “attachments” over the course of his adult life appear to be based on expedience, which is to say that when his attachments no longer benefit him, he appears to be someone who with little, if any, shame and remorse, can easily abandon, detach from, or betray those to whom he formerly professed loyalty.

As I mentioned, Isiah Thomas’s smile can light up, even blind a room, but that “light” appears to be very superficial. Beneath the veneer, inside Isiah Thomas, there appears to be very little light, only darkness. Apparently much darkness. 

(This article is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)

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If I had read an article like this years ago, I would have seen the similarities – the patterns – the script they all seem to follow.

This article belongs smack in the sports pages of every newspaper and magazine – hell, why not the front pages ?

You would wake up so many of us Sleeping Beauties- male and female – to the life they have been living for so long – actually – not a life at all , which is my biggest regret. I missed so very, very much.

I am off to the lawyer for yet another “attempt” at negotiating a divorce settlement. I am trying to have faith – but this is it.

If not today – no more talking !!!! I will have to get him in front of a judge – in any way I can . 30 months is way too long now!!!!

God Bless and have a wonderful Thanksgiving Holiday !!


Thank you for your terrific analysis. This article brings up an extremely important point that doesn’t get a lot of discussion here at Lovefraud – sociopaths cause havoc and damage everywhere they go, not just in romantic relationships.

I’ve posted a lot of stories related to Carl Greene, the former director of the Philadelphia Housing Authority, for just this reason. Approximately six women filed sexual harassment suits against him, and he arranged for the suits to be settled without informing the people who could reprimand him – the agency’s board of directors.

But Greene was also very smart. He has an almost airtight employment contract. So he has filed suit against the PHA for firing him, and last week he reportedly demanded $4 million to settle it. If the agency takes the matter to court, Greene’s attorney, Clifford E. Haines, promises a bloodbath.

I once did work for Clifford E. Haines. He is very, very good. There very well may be a bloodbath at the PHA.

Here’s a link to the story:

Everyone needs to know about sociopaths. They are destructive to sports teams, organizations, businesses — anything they come in contact with.

Ox Drover

Dear Newlife,

My thoughts are with you, and hope he will “see reason” but I have little expectation that you won’t have to drag him in front of a judge. Good luck and God bless.


Great article and Thomas is not the only public figure who refuses to take responsibility for their actions and the PATTERNS of those actions are what show up the N and PPDs. Look at the recent ETHICS hearings in the House of Reps. Every twist in the world except owning up to what they have done!


An interesting article. Just because a famous basketball player is good at playing basketball does not necessarily mean that he would make a good businessman, so it doesn’t surprise me that Isiah Thomas couldn’t run a business. People (in power) offered him positions that he wasn’t qualified to have, ending up with disastrous outcomes. Too bad Isiah doesn’t recognize his actual abilities and non-abilities, deluding himself into believing things about himself that aren’t true – he should never run (or assist in running) a business (that’s asking for trouble).


OXY – Thanks for the thoughts. Unfortunately, it’s gonna get ugly as he is determined to hold onto his BBQ and I feel everything should be sold except for a roof over my kids’ heads.

He wants the lion’s share – to walk away with 2 businesses in place – and the potential for making money I will never be able to claim a share of for my kids.

So – I have to put a value on my future with my kids being mostly my financial responsibility and another value on my freedom and ability to live with him winning and me struggling.

Somehow – I have to find peace in my soul with whatever decisions I make – and leaving him with 2 businesses will be very hard to swallow.

I need wisdom , insight and a whole lot of guts right now .

How do I discern which direction to go ?

Steve —- right back to you !!!

Ox Drover

Dear Newlife,

Darling I wish I had an answer for you, and my only advice is to pray for wisdom in this situation. I can understand it from BOTH sides of this coin! Heads he wins, tails you lose! No matter what you do it is that you are between “a rock and a hard place” or “the devil and the deep blue sea.”

There are some things that there IS NO RIGHT ANSWER, you just have to “pay your money and takes yer chances.”

Whatever decision you make and go with though, I DO ADVISE YOU TO NO EVER LOOK BACK or regret what you did.

My husband had filed a law suit before he died against a company that had stolen some patents of his and used them, I continued the law suit after he died, and they offered to “settle” with me, and I turned it down—and ended up losing ENTIRELY. But I did what AT THAT TIME appeared to be the right thing to do, and it was what my husband would have done…when my attorney called me to tell me the news, he was so sure I would be mad at him (he had also advised me not to settle that soon) but I was NOT the least bit mad at him, OR AT MYSELF for the decision not to settle.

Sure, I would have gotten a bit of money by settling, but they STOLE those instruments that my husband invented, and I know he was madder’n hell about it! I did what AT THE TIME appeared to be the right thing to do…it didn’t turn out to have been the best choice (in hind sight) but I DID NOT AND NEVER HAVE BEATEN MYSELF UP OVER IT.

So whatever you decide, go with that and WIN, LOSE OR DRAW, don’t beat yourself up or second guess yourself. You will have done the best you could at the time with the information you had at the time. (((hugs))) and my prayers for your peace!


This story brought me back to my teens.
It’s so true about sports ‘stars’, they are so admired……and I ask…..FOR WHAT?
I’m great at washing a car…..why isn’t the press knocking down my door? Because it’s NOT glamorous……we like glam!

I was 18 and met a pro football player…. for the LA Rams yadayada……poof, poof.
He POUNCED on me…….like a fly on shiat!
I was at a restaurant with a GF and he sent over drinks……(mind you I was NOT legal to be there OR drinking). I politely smiled and said thank you…….in a minute I was in his car, as he wanted to show me something…….snorting cocaine in a heartbeat…….HELLOOOO CLUE HERE?
He tried to get ‘romantic’…..I was NOT interested….in the least!!!! I think at that point….I became the prey…..the hunted……the trophy……the one he couldn’t have.
(I was in a relationship with spath and BOY did he intimidate spath!!!)

I had all the clues…..didn’t have to seek them out……but he offered me A LOT of money to work for his company. THAT NIGHT, starting the next day!
My ideal……was….even if I can last 2 months……put up with his shiat for a short period…..I could save A LOT of money…..
It couldn’t be THAT bad.
He gave me a mercedes to drive……with 2 cell phones…..(I WAS 18 FOR CHRIST SAKE)……I had a wardrobe ‘budget’… hey, here’s my CC go pick out something nice……I declined. I was there to work.

One day he called me into his office……he was having a meeting with another sports star……I walk in professionally (thinking my boss needed some files or something important or meeting related)…..and he say’s come here……I walked to the edge of his desk and he motions for me to come closer…..I was boggled by his motions……WHAT? Thinking he was asking me to empty his trash and why now????? NO……he wanted me to sit on his knee. SIT ON YOUR LAP???? WTF?
Who does this?
I sat down…..and felt VERY UNCOMFORTABLE……and he continued to conduct this meeting????? He said to me, not to mention what I heard in this meeting…..UH OKAY…..what -shock the shit out of me to silence me?
He used me as a trophy to manipulate and control his star client. I was young and cute…..and STUPID and needy!

I’ve never forgotten this…….and ofcourse that wasn’t the only weird ‘day at the office’ I experienced…….!

This guy was a narcissist, wrapped up in a well liked package too.
I think it goes with the territory. And no one wishes to look closer…….money and fame talks…..we wouldn’t want to piss off the big donor to our charity now would we?!?!

**Note to self…….people must EARN trust!

kim frederick

**Note to EB…and self….That uncomfortable feeling means RUN.

Why don’t we trust our guts? Why are we so afraid of hurting someones feelings…or embarrassing someone? Boy oh boy, do Spaths pick up on that and use it to their benefit.

We all need to learn to respect ourselves, always, and if our bodies are telling us something, we will stop, and listen.

I think that has to be one of the most important things that we should be teaching our children….especially our daughters.

Ox Drover

Yea, EB, being around “rich and famous” folks when you are young (in my case 17 to 19) gives you a strange sense of what is going on? Some of the rich and famous are also not the “nice and famous” or the “famous and also nice” but a few are….I wish I had known then what I know now about the “famous and psychopathic” or “famous and acting like psychopaths because people let them get by with it.”

But at 17-19 I thought I knew ALL THE ANSWERS to the WORLD’s QUESTIONS—heck I realize now I don’t even have 1% of the questions, much less any of the answers and I realize that 99.9% of things are some shade of gray, not black or white, but those things that ARE black or white, right or wrong, ARE THAT and NEVER CHANGE, no matter how much a psychopath tries to JUSTIFY them.

OJ Simpson is a perfect example to me of how a “rich and famous” psychopath acts—Eliot Spritzer is another one–and there are many other examples in the NEWS of governors, senators, etc. who “get caught” actiing like psychopaths.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? There is research that says that even “non-psychopaths” when given POWER will start to ACT psychopathic with their entitlement mentality.

I’m not sure about that—I think maybe those NON-psychopaths just start to REVEAL what their REAL personality disorder was BEFORE they got rich and famous but were too smart to let it out because they knew they would get slapped down when they tried it, but ONCE they become “rich and famous” they are no longer afraid to get slapped down.

So, yea, which came first—the rich and famous, or the psychopathic tendencies? If the psychopathic tendencies are there after rich and famous, I think THEY WERE THERE TO START WITH just hadn’t blossomed yet.

NOT EVERYONE who becomes “rich and famous” starts to act like a psychopath, many of them are still NICE FOLKS, caring folks, and don’t start to emotionally or physically abuse others, even if they COULD get away with it. Just like I think Mel G was a psychopath long before he became “rich and famous” and his tape recorded tirades against his Baby’s mother is a perfect example of a psychopath in a rage—however, he might never have become that willing to RAGE if he had not had the wealth and position he does now. I think it just eggs them on,, doesn’t really “create” it. Just MHO

kim frederick

Hey guys. A very quick post, off topic, but….I solved my braided rug issue. I’m gonna make one. I googled it and there are lots of instructional videos on line, and it looks easy.
It won’t cost much, as it is made from rags, and scraps. I can customize, using my own color choices…and if I get good at it, I can sell them! I’m excited about this! 🙂

I will be in my cottage tonight, and won’t have aCCESS TO A COMPUTER TILL mONDAY…i HAVE SOOO MUCH TO DO.

Gem, darlin” let me E-mail you on Monday, ok? I’m going nuts trying to figure everything out.


Kim…..get to braiding baby!!!

Good luck… won’t have time for a puter this weekend…’ll be in nesting mode.

Way better than the 2-5 feet of snow Eb will be a moving around her yard….winters here!

Ox Drover

Kim you probably won’t see this til monday, but you can find GREAT FABRICS for braided rugs (my egg donor used to make them out of scraps from sewing) there are some little metal things you run the strips through and braid them and then sew together…wool makes a great braided rug and you can get fabrics in cloth/clothes at goodwill and salvation army that you can strip and make great rugs out of. Also old blue jean material makes great braided rugs. I have a loom that I can weave them on and they are sooooo cool and those are easy to wash, the braided ones can really only be washed with a water hose or carpet shampooer but they are still really neat!!! You can spray them with that water/dirt protector stuff in a can to help keep them clean after you get them finished!



Craft corner……with Oxy and Kim.

Ox Drover

TWO TO FIVE FEET OF SNOW!!! ROTFLMAO CHOKE SNORT SNARF and I was ENVYING YOU WHY? You may have had a great summer compared to me, but dang woman, I wouldn’t trade every humid day in the world for getting out of that much snow and this early. I think I will put on a pair of shorts and go take a walk! Whew!!! BETTER YOU THAN ME, CHICKIE!!!

Oh, BTW for all you folks out there on a diet!!! er ah LIFE STYLE CHANGING NUTRITION PLAN!!! There is a kind of ICE CREAM that is GREAT—Blue Bunny and has lots of different flavors that are super! Only 100 cal for 1/2 cup and only 50 mg of sodium, you can eat it while you BRAID RUGS or KNIT!!! hee hee I never tasted anything so wonderful in my entire life!!!!

I’ve never been one to enjoy reading labels or all that carp, but went yesterday and read labels all day and found all kinds of neat stuff to fix to EAT that tastes GOOD! I’m getting the hang of this low calorie and low sodium stuff—hell, I may die in PERFECT HEALTH JUST FROM PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK SO HARD!

This has been a GREAT WEEK FOLKS!!!! Donna’s got her new educational program up and running, Kimmie is moving in to her OWN PLACE, and Hope4joy may actually have some HOPE FOR JOY NOW that she’s filed for divorce, EB dun back-spathed the business crooks!!! (if she hasn’t put her arm out of joint patting herself on the back—better save it for shoveling snow kiddo!)

Henry is recovering from a back step (but those are just reverse advances, as they do lead to good things) Whyme is making progress too, and others are getting to better spaces on the planet!!! Moving and moving on! Finding their ADAMANTS and throwing out the wish bones and growing back bones (thanks Gem!)

Tomorrow is saturday here in the good old USA! Everyone except EB will be having a grand time and she will be up to her arse at least in the WHITE STUFF!!!! hee hee!! So go inside and write us another poem gal!!! Love Oxy


ErinB saw your post.
10/27 Judge didnt make a recommendation so as not to interfere w/ our efforts to settle. Set a 2nd pretrial for Tue 11/23.

H. wants a lot more money than I offered for his share of house.

My lawyer is twisting my arm to accept the offer by meeting him half way. He didn’t verify the incorrect figures on the other atty’s spreadsheet that lists me as having a lot more money than I do. He is advising me totally wrong.

As usual, H. took his time to respond, 16 days, and I have only a week before court. My atty is away Thursday-Sunday. My fin. planner was tied up Mon-Wed, and will be back Sun night to write up a response.

That leaves only Mon for him to respond before going to court again.

I have a feeling we’ll go to pre-trial again. I can’t decide if that’s better for me or not.

H. sent me an email justifying why he is asking for more money, and why it will be easy for me to get a higher mortgage with only a little more per month so he can have a higher amount. He was serious.

Hard not to worry about the time pressure as I won’t be able to respond before Mon.
And I get panicky what if it ends up in trial…then I have no control and can lose a lot more than what the jerk off is asking for. Can’t trust a judge to be fair.

Ox Drover


Thank you for checking in we have been concerned about you and how you were doing! Yea it is confusing and frustrating! Good luck! hang in there (((hugs))))



kim frederick says:
**Note to EB”and self”.That uncomfortable feeling means RUN.

Why don’t we trust our guts? Why are we so afraid of hurting someones feelings”or embarrassing someone? Boy oh boy, do Spaths pick up on that and use it to their benefit.

We all need to learn to respect ourselves, always, and if our bodies are telling us something, we will stop, and listen.

I think that has to be one of the most important things that we should be teaching our children”.especially our daughters.


Did Donna get a copy of your poem? she needs to post it on it’s own, like others have said.


ntCZ1— See! Ive shortened it even more for you!
Your so RIGHT as kimmie said, you have to listen to your gut, and warn your kids, especially girls. However, didnt work with my 2, {believe me I tried so hard over the years, not realising they were even worse spaths than their Dad!}
The whole 3 of them ganged up on me it wasa nightmare.
I was beaten up by my ex, AND my sweet sixteen year old{not!}
people dont realise who say,
“Why didnt you just get the hell out?
Aint that simple ma’m.
Your self esteem is on the floor, you are beaten emotionally, abused physically and mentally,-I was a Graduate, a clever, imaginative resourceful person and I just got beaten down. If I hadnt escaped when I did, I truly think one of them would have killed me.]Not the younger spath D, she was never home.
I was gaslighted for YEARS and thought I WAS going crazy!
Until I found LF last June, 2009, and the scales started to fall from my eyes.THANK GOD!! for Lovefraud!Love, Gem.XX
Listening to my gut? Who was I to say my gut was right, when I had 3 people telling me I was crazy?


Dancing Warrior:

In Australia we are able to access on-line free, downloadable and/or printable copies of all legislation – Acts, Amendments to Acts, etc. They are available through our government services websites (like the Attorney General’s Office) and our government printing organisations (like the State Law Publishers). I have downloaded copies of every bit of Family Law legislation (for my ongoing Property Settlement case) that I thought I might need to read, as well as the Criminal Code and the Acts pertaining to stalking and Restraining Orders – in case I need them. They have come in very handy for me, as I have no $ for a lawyer and have so far had to run all of my own cases in the Family and Criminal courts here.

I mention this because generally speaking, in the Western world at least, legislation should be on public record and readily accessible. Are you able to search on-line for stuff like this? Knowledge = power = equals a cooler head and a calmer heart for having to handle this kind of thing. I know that you have an attorney and you have every right to expect that they would take care of knowing and using whatever is necessary on your behalf, but life isn’t always like that. It doesn’t hurt to educate yourself and you will feel more in control of the situation if you are able to do this.



I never thought of looking up family law. Got divorce books from the library, but that’s more on the process than the laws.

There is little time before a set court date in one work day for me to hunt up laws and my energy is so depleted. From what I hear from lawyers and people going through the legal system, “fair” in property division is relative.

Would love a cool head and calm heart. I am in no way prepared to represent myself. I can be watchful of mylawyer making mistakes on numbers and tell him what I want, how to represent me.

And pray.


Thanks Gem! If I would have listened to my gut, I would never had been exsposed to the abuse! They sure do get in your head and twist the life out of your brain and soul!!!


I am not sure if the 2nd pre-trial is good, bad, or neutral.
If he gets my answer Mon, and doesn’t want to respond that day, we go to the judge at pre-trial Tue.

Last time I felt okay with that, but now I feel nervous.

Considering H’s unreasonableness, is it fair to expect that in impartial judge would view the situation more favorably than the opposing side does? In which case I can relax about the time crunch and simply present the facts in court.

Ox Drover

Dear Dancingwarrior,

It’s hard to predict sometimes what a psychopath will do (respond that day or not)

Whether the judge is impartial or not is an unknown, but worrying and being nervous about it all isn’t going to do any good one way or the other, and it might be negative for you personally, so my suggestion on this is to try to quit “second,, and third” guessing this “what will he do, what will the judge think? etc” and just do what HAS TO BE DONE in the way it has to be done, in the time frame it has to be done in, and let the rest and the results go.

From my personal experience I can tell you, we make the best possible decision with the information we have at the time—at that point the RESULTS are OUT OF OUR HANDS. So whether the results are positive or negative, they are what they are.

Worrying about a decision one way or the other only is going to up set you! Not change the outcome.

I worried and worried over which pieces of evidence to put into my packet for the parole board to hopefully keep my P son in prison for another five years at least—-but I did the best job I could have done, made the best choices I could and now it is OVER—I still don’t have a decision yet and won’t until probably late4 January or February, but I’m really not worried, because A) I’ve done all Ii can B) I did the best job I could and C) whatever the outcome I will handle it even if it means moving away from my home.

So whatever happens, don’t look back and beat yourself up for not doing things differently! That’s the point I’m trying to make as well. ((((hugs)))) You’ve got the NETWORK BEHIND YOU!!!!


I sure hope things go the way you want them to. You shouldn’t be froced into moving away from your home.

Ox Drover

Dear notthecrazee1,

I resisted the first time when I fled, was determined to stay and fight and “shoot out the window” if I had to, but I very rightly realized that my son D and I would have to sleep some time, this is not “Fort Apache” after all and the walls are not made of logs and the windows cannot be shuttered with gun slits in them, and a gallon of gas and a match could run us out easily enough…so standing and fighting under those conditions was pretty foolhardy. Especially with the enemy living on the same farm! So I very wisely chose to run and disappeared until that particular psychopath went to jail some months later.

Things now are a bit safer as long as P son doesn’t have a bunch of money all at one time to finance another assault, and as long as he himself is in prison at a great distance. Plus, all his buddies are on parole so it would be more difficult for them to a) get together enough money for gas to even come here, b) get away without their PO knowing c) figure out a way to find me and then off me without knowing the lay of the land, and so on. Not that it couldn’t be done, but just not as EASILY, and especially since son D and I are cautious, and always armed. That wouldn’t make any difference to P son, because he would walk in here even if he knew we had machine guns waiting, but most of the others of his buddies that I have known are a bit more cautious and wouldn’t deliberately walk into a FIRE FIGHT.



(Just in case). x


WOW!!! What a battle you have on your hands! It almost sounds like the Hatfields vs the McCoys! Have you ever thought of selling and moving to a farm in another state?



(Actually, I think this might be even more helpful than the other one I just posted)

Ox Drover

notthecrzee 1

Can’t until after my mother dies, lands are held up in a family trust set in place by my parents and my self and my husband, before my husband and my step father died, and SHE is the one financing the psychopathic son…all of our homes are included in the trust, and so can’t sell anything until after she passes away. She and I are co-trustees and in court, she has more than enough money to bankrupt me in a fight, and I am sure her psychopathic attorney would be glad to relieve her of that money to get a court fight going. So all I can do is to wait and hope I out live her. If I don’t outlive her, then P-son gets half the farm for life and nothing I can do about it. If I outlive her (which I hope to do) then P-son won’t get the farm, but I am sure she will leave him money—but other sons and I will fight that tooth and nail and hopefully can prevent him from getting it, as she has been “unduly influenced” by this psychopathic grandson (and I already have the stuff in hand to go into court to prove this I HOPE–but my other sons and I don’t want the money for OURSELVES, we want it for MOM’S FAVORITE CHARITY instead of to the P son who UNDULY INFLUENCED this poor old dear to give him the money that she had really wanted to go to CHARITY…since the charity is a very popular local orphanage I think I will prevail, and I’m sure their attorneys will help me as well. It is obvious I wouldn’t fight it for the orphanage unless I really believed in it since it will cost ME to fight it and I am NOT after the money for MYSELF! How altruistic that? hee hee



OMG Drover,
you do have a family battle going on. Good idea about the orphanage. Why is that the spaths have to one upper us? You are living on the “fault line” in life becuase of the one uppers being done! It’s like come on people… stop it! and just keep each others better interest at heart and go from there to make decisions. Well I hope you are able to have a safe, secure home, it must not be very comfortable to live on the edge like that.

Ox Drover


It isn’t all that bad at all any more, really. I REFUSE TO LIVE IN TERROR—caution, but not terror! The worst that can happen is that he can have me killed…and once you have had to face death square in the face thinking you are not going to survive, that you can’t survive, it gets less scary…death I think is by far NOT the worst thing that can happen to me. Living in terror is, and I’ve been there too, and I refuse to go back there.

I also realize that a House is not “home” unless your heart is there, and that sticks and bricks do not make a home…nor land anything but a place to stand on with your feet on the bottom and your head on the top and gravity holding you down. There is nothing sacred about a house or a piece of land, no matter how long it has been in your family or how rich or how beautiful. In the end, six feet is all the land we need. Just enough to bury us. We don’t “own” land anyway, it is only in our custody, and it doesn’t care about us or how we feel or anything else. It just IS. Like a rock IS. or a body of water IS.

Before I had to run for it, I put too much importance on THIS HOUSE and THIS LAND, and THIS community, etc. and now I realize that it is just a PLACE. Nothing sacred at all. Nothing special at all. My happiness is with ME. My home is with ME–even if it is a cardboard box it can be MY HOME. My happiness doesn’t depend on living here or any other”special” place. Staying here won’t make me happy, leaving here won’t make me unhappy. Happiness depends on ME and my state of mind, and I am in control of that, not outside forces.


Sounds to me like you have it under control of that you have your comfortable spot. I can’t wait to undrstand all this enough to get to that “comfy place”. Like one of my kitties sitting in the window to get sunshine and purring! What a comfy spot.
Thanks for sharing

Ox Drover

Dear notcrazee,

well, believe me I HAVE BEEN and sometimes still am, the CRAZEE ONE, but I don’t let that throw me…it’s okay to be crazee when you are in an INSANE SITUATION. Otherwise it would not be normal.

I am getting myself into a comfy place, bit by bit, and most of it is adjusting my THINKING more than anything else. I used to tell my kids when they were preteens “you need an attitude adjustment, do you want to do it or shall I do it?”

I needed an ATTITUDE adjustment, and I have done it for myself. Nothing has changed really except my attitude. My P son still wants to kill me, and would if he got a chance. That hasn’t changed, but I no longer LIVE IN TERROR OF THAT. MY attitude changed, and the TERROR IS GONE.

I can’t change the fact that my son is a dangerous psychopath who wants to kill me. I can’t change the fact that my elderly mother is hoodwinked by him, never really cared much about me, and is a toxic enabler and will continue to send him money. I can’t change the fact that my oldest biological son is a liar and doesn’t keep his though he has other good and admirable qualities and is NOT a psychopath.

I can’t change any of this stuff….but I can adjust my Attitude about it. I can adjust how I react to all of the above. How I think about all of the above.

I can still have a very good, peaceful, happy and fulfilling life even with all the above being true.


Aussiegirl, thanks for the websites.


A second pretrial conf. is just protocol.
I will tell you…….It WON”T GO TO TRIAL.
It’s part of the negotiations……judges don’t want to decide your stuff….yes legally they are obligated…..but even if a trial is set….you’ll arrive to court (negotiating up to that minute)….and the judge will speak privately with attorneys and your attornye will ‘scare’ you into a court step settlement.

You’ve still got time…..make up your mind on wha t you want and THEN….what your willing to settle for……bottom line.
Then keep negotiating. Find negotiating points.
KNOW what you want to protect…..and don’t EVER settle if you don’t feel right.

But know… will NOT end up at trial……VERY,, VERY, VERY few cases do.
Attorneys are ‘punished’ by the judges (just are) if they drag out and cant’ control their clients…..this is why your attorney is pushing you into something your not comfortable with.
He’s got the pressure of the judge on his ass.
This is the time you will see a great change in your relationship with your attorney…..he’ll push you…..and push some more.
If he’s pegged you as a pushover….he will count on that to save his own ass…….
D. Attorneys like ‘easy’ cases…..when it get’s difficult and the judge puts the pressure on THEM….you see a different side.

DON”T BUDGE if you don’t feel right. KNOW WHAT YOU WANT and can LEGALLY ACHIEVE AND ARE ENTITLED TO and go from there…….NO EMOTIONS….it’s ALL business!

And you won’t get a response by Tues if you present docs on Mondaay….fyi…’s make more money for a day in court. It will go to 2nd conference and judge will pressure…..maybe even set a trial date……and you will end up with the pressure of the trial date looming….which is designed to make you break…….even if it’s on the trial day, on the steps of the courthouse.
Hear me… will be forced to settle……JUST MAKE IT WHAT YOU WANT.
MAKE YOURSELF CLEAR…..know the law, know what your entitled to and know what your willing to settle for!
It’s only a matter of law…..not emotions!

Ox Drover

Dear Warrior,

I think EB is right on target with this one….decide what you will NOT give in on no matter what! Then, think of the things you WILL give in on (if it is just about money, you CAN give some on that) if it is about child welfare, then maybe you do NOT want to give one inch on that…etc. so figure out ahead of time what is SOLID and what is more “liquid”—that way you won’t be blind sided and have to make a snap decision on the court house steps.

Good luck, and hang tough! Just remember what is important and what is in the end, not really all that important. (((Hugs))) and my prayers!



H. has been trying to manipulate me through emails big time.

Tried to persuade me to negotiate with him. Reasoning why I should take on a BIGGER mortgage to pay HIM more equity.

Then sends a note about literary references that we have a history about, trying to play on my emotions.

BTW he tried to soften me up, BEFORE asking for more $, offering that his father give our D. a car. Tonite he emails w/subject line “D’s car”. I clicked delete.

I DID really get upset to see my own lawyer pressure me in the wrong direction.

Please keep fingers crossed for me. That I don’t let them see me sweat and stay firm on protecting my and my kid’s future.

During this time, the world looks scary and cold. Hard to get out there and face my usual responsibilities. I work hard to push away worry and fears and just plow through.


You are as your name states: A WARRIOR! Keep the “poker face” on and fight until you can’t anymore. Time for you to wear your mask!!!! Wear it well woman!!!! Be strong, get what you want and need and then…. you can fall apart behind the scences. LF will be there for you.
Follow EB’S and DROVER’S advice!
Blesses to you!


Dancing Warrior,

EB has some great advice for you, be your own advocate and stand up for what is important. Let go of what is just in the way of your ultimate happiness.

My attorney told me that judges do NOT want you in their court room because it wastes their time. There are more important things on their docket and they want the parties to settle out of court.

Your ex is looking to get the best deal and is putting his emotions (if there were any to begin with) aside. If he tries to pursuade you to take out a bigger morgage, it’s only in his benefit. He’s looking out for #1, and it isn’t you. Don’t be swayed by emotions, they find our weaknesses and expose them. If it has worked in the past for him, he will keep trying it. Spine of Steel!!!! Stay Strong!!!!

You are an empathetic person who cares about others and he will take advantage of that fact. It doesn’t change who you are at the core if you stand up for what is right. It’s empowering and beautiful and healing.


Thanks everyone.


When you see the ‘butter up’… along…..put ALL those emotions BACK on him…..participate with manipulative words…..respond with what will CRUSH HIM and send HIM off balance.
Now’s the time…….

You see what he’s attempting to do……back spath him with the same tactics…..
You don’t have to respond to ALL emails……
Just set him OFF BALANCE.

He won’t be able to negotiate with strength when he’s off balance.

Tell him you think it’s a wonderful idea for gramps to gift whatever he wants to D……just keep in mind D isn’t working and won’t be able to drive the vehicle without insurance and won’t be able to maintain the vehicle either… I would think twice before entering into something D can’t maintain on her own. this may cause anger towards gramps……
Just a thought.

the Mtg issue…..research the laws in your state and KNOW what they can and can’t force you to do.
If it’s unenforeable….think about that.

It’s like if H&W are on a MTG together…..they divorce…..and W is awarded the home. Court states wife is to get MTG in her own name…….GREAT, but they can’t enforce that….becasue they can’t tell the MTG co’s who to lend to….you may have aweful credit, or no credit or simply won’t qualify.
NOW, in this instance…..get the DEED SIGNED IN COURT! Once wife is awarded property……you can write up your own deed…..and have the clerk notorize HIS signiture…..once you get the deed signed, record it and HE HAS NO RIGHTS TO PROPERTY… if you decide you don’t ‘feel’ like changing the mtg into your own name, or can’t…….NO ONE CAN DO A DAMN THING ABOUT IT! he’s NOT on title.
If he takes you back to court….fine, you can always say….your working on it. (no lie)……
The mtg. co won’t care who’s on the loan or paying it… long as they get paid.

Go to a office supply and get a GRANT DEED……fill it out and keep it in your court file…..for immediate signiture.
This is one issue I didn’t do…..he still hasn’t signed over the deed….1.5 years later.
For now….it’s fine…..IF they foreclose it’ll kill his credit too……but i’d like that wrapped up…..especially if they modify my loan.
Your attorney will ‘volunteer’ to write this up……and charge you $350 for a $4.00 document you can EASILY fill in.

It’s like the court ordering you to file joint tax’s…..they CAN”T do this. It’s our constitutional right to file however we want.
But courts do this in divorce cases all the time.
I was ordered to file jointly……spath thought that was great….i’d handle it….
UH NOT A CHANCE IN HELL…..he’s a drug dealer…..UH NO!
I will not be tied to him…..and I have no legal obligation to file HIS friggen tax’s or facilitate any of it.
I covered my ass…..not his.
I’m working on my IRS cleanup…….and the IRS is sending notices for HIM…..I write RETURN TO SENDER….no longer at this address……
My issues will be wrapped up…..and when they ‘find’ him…..he’ll cry foul……get me involved and I”LL BURY HIS ASS……tell them everything and provide the IRS WITH ALL DOCUMENTATION I have that he hasn’t paid tax’s on.
Like all the business checks he depositied into his SOLE account……HA….dude….thought you were getting away with somehting there didin’t ya?!?!
Can you say…..T-A-X Evasion?

So… see….even though judges may rule on something…..if you know your rights and your state laws…….you can always work around it…..
Spaths do!

Ox Drover

Dear Warrior, and EB,

While neither EB nor I are attorneys, I think EB has it SPOT ON with her advice—and I would not worry about a car for D—MONEY WORKS BETTER! LOL

Another tactic you might try is whatever E mail proposal he sends you, just answer it back..

“you know, I think this is all such a waste of time, let’s just do this in court.” rinse and repeat and repeat and repeat…just appear NOT INTERESTED in settling.

Be sure that when you write up a deed for the creep to sign on the spot that you have no TYPOS IN IT in the legal description. EB is right about the mortgage company not having to take his name off the mortgage, even if it is OFF THE DEED….that is HIS PROBLEM…not yours.

If you want to refinance the house, I would do it AFTER the divorce is final and he has signed off, not before for ANY REASON…now or soon might be a good time to do it with interest rates lower, IF YOU THINK YOU CAN GET A NEW LOAN APPROVED.

My son and the P-tramp filed jointly for taxes the last year they were legally married, but the check comes made out to both of them with “and” between the names. Most banks won’t cash one unless both parties are there and have ID, or it can be deposited into a joint account if both parties are there and one has already signed the back….then the party that is at the bank can write a cash check for the amount, so it is effectively “cashing” the check…but don’t trust him.

Son C lived in another state and He had the check mailed to my address so I ended up meeting her at the bank in our state and we split the money on the spot—it worked out best for son C, he got back more $$ and so did she—in fact, that day was the only day since he first brought her for me to meet that she acted actually “nice” to me, and if I hadn’t known better, I’d have thought she was a jewel! LOL


Speaking of bank accounts……
I left our joint account open…..with $6.00 in it. It is tied to my other accounts through online access….so he can’t access it.
NOW….there IS some risk to this….but also some benefit.
For example……last week I got a class action settlement check for 600.00 from MY insurance policy….fuck him, it’s mine! It was made out to EB OR dickwad. EB WINS….in case of the ‘or’.
I took it to a bank out of town and cashed it.
Also when I took him off the policy or got any checks made out to both of us……I’d return them and make them wire the funds to the joint account and immediately transfer funds out.

He has no idea this account even exists…..he used to but i’m sure assumed I closed it…..which i tried, but was told one party couldn’t close a joint account.
So i’ve used it to my benefit. A bit spathy….but hey….who’s counting! 🙂
Once again……he’d do the same… I just beat him to it!
what’s good for the pig, is good for the princess! 🙂

Ox Drover

ROTFLMAO “what’s good for the pig is good for the princess!” ROTFLMAO SNORT CHOKE SNARF

Actually, if he got a credit check he could find it, but it isn’t likely he cares about his credit–you are right, the check to EB “OR” Dickwad is definitely YOURS.


Goose/gander……NAW….doesn’t fit.

PIG/PRINCESS…..yeah….that’s it! 🙂

No….he’s NOT likely to get a CR…remember he’s a cash only lifestyle…..and even if he did run one…..somebody else would have to point this out….he’s a moron.

Ox Drover

Actually, EB, pigs are smart, and if you give them a chance they are actually clean, they won’t chit where they live (and I can’t say either of those things for your X! LOL) so maybe we need to say the SNAKE and the princess (maybe Star won’t see the reference and boink us! LOL hee hee) Or we could say the RAT and the princess or the POSSOM and the princess, possoms are about filthy creatures and vile tempered the funniest reference to possoms I ever heard was from a book by Ferrel Sams (a GREAT writer in the southern tradition.) He was talking about someone going in and out a door “like possoms up a dead mule’s ass”!!! This guy is one of the best and also funniest authors I’ve ever read and he will be talking “serious” and then out of NO WHERE he will come up with some phrase like that that sets you to belly laughing. The guy was raised on a plantation in the south in the 1930s, went to college,, then to WWII, then to medical school over 3-books that make you laugh and cry. He also wrote 6 or 8 other books of short stories, but he really summed up southern life, and reminds me of John Grissom in some ways like that, (a Painted House) but in others Hemingway. One of, if not THE, favorite author of mine.


No snake either….cuz I use that one as an analogy for waiting around for em, nestled under that warm rock, like a SNAKE.
I like Possom and the princess…….okay, that’s it….Possom.


EB and Oxy, that’s very helpful on the deed and mortgage. I’ll read that again.

Just gave my lawyer a piece of my mind. Had notes in front of me to tell him everything. He was an ass about it, I could imagine the eye roll on the other line, but at the end he said, “Sorry you feel the way you do but I guess it is deserved.” Ass!

I told him:
“I feel very strongly that you are not representing my best interests. There are several glaring errors in attyX’s spreadsheet that you did nto verify before recommending I accept his offer. (Proceed to list error, after error, after error.)”

Pause. He sighs says…okay…

“Adding these errors you are advising me to accep $X less than he would have. WHAT AM I TO THINK? ARE you my lawyer? I am paying you to protect my and my daughter’s future and this is not acceptable.

“This is what I want. . . The net worth added up shows him having $X more. I want the net worth amounts reversed so I end up with the higher amount. If you look at his atty’s spreadsheet, they list my net as 64% of assets and his as 46%. That is 110%. According to his calculations he was okay with 54-46% so he should be ok with this.

“I will not agree with his having $X more–it’s not fair and there is no reason for it. He earns more than I do. As I’ve told you before, he caused the breakdown of marriage since ’94,I dragged him to counseling for years. He was verbally, mentally, and emotionally abusive. There is no way I’ll agree to accept less assets than he.”

I put on my fierce, hair up, claws out, teeth bared mama-bear freaking out attitude.

I’ll see if the ass follows what I told him.

You’d have to be blind to screw up.

EB, thanks again for that tip on getting a blank deed document at Staples–I doubt they’ll want to settle tomorrow at court, right? So I’ll get it for next time. My lawyer wanted me to take out a new mortgage and take his name off the existing mortgage. What an ass. That’s what you were saying Oxy–DON’T do it till after.

Wish me luck tomorrow.

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