By | November 17, 2009 52 Comments

Judge Judy hears case about rape and the abuse of the legal system

A Lovefraud reader sent a link to a Judge Judy program on YouTube.

Judge Judy, Get Unshocked

In this case, the plaintiff, Paul Baker, has filed a lawsuit against his ex-wife, Casey Bell. Baker says that Bell falsely accused him of rape, which caused him to spend time in jail, lose his job as a firefighter, and spend $30,000 on legal fees.

Bell says that Baker did, in fact rape her. She tearfully proceeded to tell Judge Judy how it happened, and as her story unfolded, Judge Judy became more and more incredulous.

Although Bell did most of the talking, Baker had a surprise witness—Bell’s former husband. She pulled a similar stunt with him.

In the end, Judge Judy did not believe the woman’s story and found for the plaintiff.

If you want to see someone attempting to manipulate the legal system, while not even having the facts right, watch this show.

Note: The show is presented in four videos, but the entire program is there.

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Ox Drover

I don’t watch this show since most of it (I think) is drivel, and unfortunately, my internet connection would take 2 weeks to watch this video even if I could, but the gist of it pretty much tells the story.

I am glad that this man was able to vindicate himself and sorry for what happened to him. The FALSE accusations of rape and child molestation to me should make the one who makes them do the time in prison as if they had committed the crime they accused others of which was false. Unfortunately, that is not the case. There is little actual lrisk in these accusations and the damage they do to the innocent, and the damage they do to those victims who HAVE BEEN abused is worse, in my mind than the abuse itself.

Pox on all liars, and may the fleas of 1,000 camels inhabit their arm pits and crotches!


My sister got me involved in wondering about P’s because she has been, in her opinion, married to a P 27 years. However, she has had 2 very long term sexual relationships outside her marriage, she call’s anyone a P if you try to point that out to her and becomes very nasty and vicious. While reading these post’s I noticed that alot of posters talked about the P being manipulative, playing victim, etc… While at the same time saying they were victims, over & over again with different people. Do P’s attract each other? How does one go through that many relationships and it is always the other person is the P? Some of you may want to look into that and see if there is help for your own Sociopath tendencies.

Ox Drover

Dear Takesone,

Many “bad/dysfunctional” relationships (ps and others of their ilk, called “cluster-Bs”) DO team up together. Those relationshiips can be like “gasoline and fire.” One where BOTH parties are disordered to one degree or another and for a while they take turns being either the victim, the rescuer, or the abuser. The roles change like in musical chairs.

After a while, usually, these relationships are so toxic that there comes a big blow up and they part. The “loser” in the relationship goes on to present them selves to their next potential partner as a VICTIM to elicit sympathy and to place blame on the “bad partner.” In fact, BOTH partners were disordered.

It is difficult sometimes to know if a victim is truly a victim or a co-abuser.

Besides the fact that most abusers at some time present themselves as THE victim, when in reality their VICTIM was the genuuine thing. They are very good at placing blame for what happens to them or what they did, on the victim.

Not long ago I tried to help a lady who sounded like a victim, she was in dire financial straits for a place to park her RV which she lived in, and I let her park it here on my farm.

It wasn’t long though, before I realized that she may indeed have been victimized by a P, but from talkign to her I started to see that she was also an abuser as well. Subtle little things I picked up a bout her that said RED FLAG HERE, and she made no effort to reciprocate with anything around here for me letting her park here (I was not charging her money) and then began to demand more and better services in her free parking place.

I realized that after a short while, she was starting to feel ENTITLED to not just what I had offered her, but to anything I had that she needed or wanted. She started to set the rules.

Since she had no income I encouraged her to seek a jog, and offered her transportation with my son into the neighboring town (free) to look for work and then they could commute together to work. No that wasn’t an option. IN fact, she had more excuses why she couldn’t work than I have ever heard from someone wanting to avoid a job! She had “health” problems, and I offered to get her into the free clinic in another near by town….bvut that didn’t work either, she wouldn’t go. Came up with another set of excuses. So on and on.

When she started getting really into the passive-aggressive hostility, I decided, “well, you have done all you can for this person, it is tiem for them to go.” I informed her that “this isn’t working, and I’m sorry it isn’t working, but it is time for you to move on down the road.” She was stunned! I offered her a bit of money for gas money (incase she was flat broke) gave her as much and what food she wanted out of my pantry, and wished her godspeed.

She took the money without so much as a “thanks” and then began nto tell me how sick she was and I had not arranged for her to see a physician. (DUH, she wouldn’t go) and she had a litiny of serious medical problems un addressed (DUH? I tried multiple timies to get her to go) and then how I had emotionally abused her by not guareenting her a place to park FOREVER. Now she could no longer trust anyone ever again, because EVERYONE she knew was abusing her, including evil old me.

BTW I saw no indication that this woman was anything but healthy and able bodied. She seemed to be able to do or lift anything she wanted to, FOR HERSELF only, and very unable to have the strength or an uninjured part of her body if it was for someone else’s benefit.

So takes one, it is possible your sister might be a P and having been hooked up with other Ps and those relationships are very vollitile. Some times with each one posing as a weakend victim, they get fooled themselves when they are looking for the next victim. Genuine victims are very vulnearable to the next P that comes along with a “love bomb” so I would say half of the bad relationships like that are P+P=chaos and two pseudo-victims when it is overl.

This blog is relatively FREE of pseudo-victims I think, though we do have a few drama queens/kiings and the odd pseudo-victim, and even a trolling P come here for a while. They generally don’t stay here long, but they can’t keep up the pretext for too long either as they find something to get mad about the group about—they take offense, try to split up the other posters in to “camps” pro and con them. It is getting so easy to see these people earlier and earlier for me now, and they no longer upset me, I just post around them like they don’t exist, and if they get too off the wall, I hit the report abusive comments button and let Donna take care of it.

Your sister sounds like a BLAME PLACING and PROJECTING P for sure, having affairs outside of the marriage, then becomikng very nasty when this is pointed out to her when she is downing her “mean psychopathic” husband. They like one set of rules for them, and another set for others.

Her husband may be a true victim of her, or he may also be another personality disordered person. Either way, it sounds like a bad marriage to me.

You might like to stay around and read some of the older archived articles. There is some good information in there.

How does your sister treat YOU and the rest of the family, friends, her children (if any) and so on?


My sister treats me abusively one minute and sweet the next. We are from a very dysfunctional home. I sometimes get scared I might be a p, because apparently P’s don’t see it or know it. That is a very scary thought. I am a single mom and have been in p relationships, but more and more often from the age of 18 to now42(Ihave not dated in 3 years for my kids sake, no p’s please) I was able to leave a lot quicker. But like I said our home life as children was very abusive by my step father and uncle, and never really had an example of a healthy relationship. If I am a P, how do I know and can I get help? Very scary thought. But I must admit reading some of the post’s it seemed weird that alot of the posters were “victims” over & over again. I look at the common denomenator, that “victim” is the one in all these relationships. There is something wrong there. Thanks for responding to my post, it is eye opening.


Really interesting post. I love the wisdom of judge judy and enjoy her sensible practical wily ways of cutting through P bullshit very quickly.

I “like to think” I am better armed now than ever and can read people in a way that suits my need to be safe and with genuinely kind normal people. I can see a change in me. I ‘m more assertive, feel no guilt in saying no to things that are uncomfortable and I’m direct…..the P taught me all this through a baptism of fire! thank you P!


I do not feel legal language like ‘victim’ sums
up what it is to be a human being. It’s a quick label and It de humanises.

The thing about the P is they ARE NOT HUMAN in the sense they feel genuine warm feelings of love and wonder when looking at the ocean or a kitten. The P will imitate it very well, but they are not able to feel the expansive flood of emotion that bonds me to my cat or my son, it’s unconditional positive regard, it’s knowing you would never hurt them, it’s beyond belief in fact to hurt an animal or a child, that’s what has me stunned and still at some level traumatised….I never thought anyone could be so cruel.

Yeah well they are! get over it, get on with it and get the hell away from it.

I get a chill when I think of The P because I didn’t know he was one till he let the mask slip, a bit like finding a reptile underneath a human skin….I’m learning to hold with the possibility anyone can be a P…telling me what I want to hear is a red flag, too perfect is a red flag…

Ox Drover

Dear Takesone,

If you are still around, I suggest that you go back through the archived articles here and read them all. Just the articles at first, not necessarily all the comments or you’d “never” get through. KNowledge is power, and power is the power to change your self, to change the way we react to things in our lives.

Growing up in a dysfunctional family where predatory behavior is the NORM sets us up to continue that pattern in our adult life. It doesn’t mean that YOU are a P, but it might mean that you have used some dysfunctional coping skills developed as a necessary survival skill as a child and brought them over into adulthood where they are not so protective.

Developing a positive self image, and learning how to set boundaries is imiportant. I do hope you will stay around and read and learn. This is a good place for healing. God bless.


Thank you fellow posters. I do have true love for my kids (teens) even during these hard teen years. I have 2 cats I would do anything for even though we are low income, they get vet attention. I do have a hard time making friends, I have been burned before and made too strong a boundary. I will do as you suggest, I do want healing in my life so I can experience true friendship without always wondering if the friend I have is going to hurt me in the end. At first I did not think this forum would be helpful, but I really am learning alot from it. As for my sister, I love her, she is my sister but I cannot trust her to have real feelings, because after she is very hurtful, she acts like nothing happened and we are fine. She is bipolar, so I am not sure if bipolar is the same as a P.


I have done an extensive amount of self reflection concerning this topic.. why did I bring to me who that I have.. when younger..I didn’t have much of a clue.. but who and why are those attracted to me.. and I learned as it was revealed that they were after something that I had or have… sure relationshp is give and take.. but they ‘got’ more than gave…and that has stopped with the last man that I got rid of last year. He was the slickest coming under the quise of soo good and spiritual.. handsome and cunning.. and he had little to nothing to give and everything that he wanted.. a place to live, cooking, laundry, my caring for his dying mother, having my home to come home to.. my life, my activity, my talents, my sense of adventure and fun, my ablilty to care for myself. What he did was hang art, run errands with me, take me to dinner and movies.. although I had to plan it all. He came in from his business trips to a fully furnished house, gourmet meals, and my caring for his needs and he paid for little of it.. he did buy groceries at times and he brought me flowers every week.. yahoo! Next came his needy, mother molested daugher, his cancer suvivor son, his youngest son, and when he wanted in my life the son of his ex to which he had no blood relation and whose own father wasn’t interested in and that boy is in his twenties.. I saw clearly this was a con.. who and what was I? Mother Teresa! And all this was supposed to be because of what he was going to give to me ‘someday’ when his ship came in…. I refused to become the victim of him and his past and his disfunctional family. And had I not been distracted moving into my new house ..I would not have gotten past the second date with this opportunist.. I blame myself anyway.. but I got out before he could infiltrate irreprabaly. And heck yeah.. Ihave asked over and over.. what is it about me that brings this kind to try and submerge me into their burdens.. I don’t want to become cold but I am not getting into anything where I am not benefitted also..
And this man gave lip service to me being his Queen… heck.. we lived in my castle and I began to feel like the servant…


What it is about me is that I didn’t have total self-value and love of myself. I gave others the benefit of the doubt while doubting myself. My instincts were correct at every turn, it was my self doubt that messed me up.. and my interaction of giving, pleasing, and doing without because something inside told me that I wasn’t worthy of what I want. Well, I am worthy. AndI will waste no more time with those that can’t see my total worth, show appreaction and interaction tht is worthy of me and what I deserve. I have never gone after anyone, harmed any one intentionally nor taken from them.

Ox Drover

Dear Takes oone,

many people who are psychopathic are ALSO bi-polar, I think the two are genetically linked, but I also have friends who are bi-polar and NOT psychopathic or cruel. ADHD is also linked to psychopathic traits, but I ahve a son who is ADHD but not at all psychopathic, in fact just the opposite, with too much caring and empathy.

I have found, though it is difficult to do so, to distance myself as much as possible, totally NO CONTACT in most cases with anyone who shows signs of being abusive toward others. That includes my egg donor (my mother) and one of my sons who is a flaming psychopath. At first I felt that because of teh blood relationship that this was UNthinkable much less NOT possible, but I have found that I am much happier and better off having NO contact with these people. I have also eliminated all of my UNhealthy “friendships” with those that do not respect my reasonable boundaries.

I am 62 (will be 63 next month) and I am only now learning how to set proper and reasonable boundaries and to stand up for myself and set limits on what behavior I will accept from others. I don’t have 100s of “friends” but the friends I do have are SOLID GOLD.

Eliminating the toxic out of my life has made my life soo much better and it was difficult to make those decisions and to carry them out. I don’t want to be around people who have PROVEN over and over that they will BETRAY trust and treat me with disrespect. I would rather live “friendless” than to have “friends” like that!

I am glad tha tyou do see the wonderful things here at LF it is a wonderful place. Knowledge=power and by larning both about them, and about ourselves, we can remake our lives into what we want them to be! Glad you are here!


Yes OxDrover

I have also had to think long and hard about my relationships with family of origin (where the whole dynamic was set up) I do not visit as often as I was feeling some terrible shame about them witnessing my downfall at the hands of the P it’s like they were smug about it, glad I got hurt…told you so, what is wrong with you that you end up with him etc. not so much what they said…more the way I felt (excrutiating embarrassment, sadness and I’m unworthy of anything good) so another good tip is to notice how you feel around someone…drained? embarrassed? ashamed? less than?


That’s it for me too. I always questioned my instincts because I was taught how to doubt them by parents who couldn’t handle the honesty of it.

I have a huge amount of love inside, and I think my parents couldn’t bear it and told me to go away, so I stopped it and pushed it back in. It’s still here however ! part of my recovery is trusting it, and giving it more permission to exist.

A P senses loving energy like a shark smells blood….I can be loving AND not tolerate betrayal and disrespect….just about!



You have the ability to love! celebrate that…you love your kids and your cats! every day I thank whoever that I can feel real emotion. But the sting in the tail of being emotional is we get really hurt. Thats why we are more wary now…and the P walks off unscathed….


Dear Ox,
Great story and example of how healthy you are! You saw the red flags and acted accordingly. I, too, have asked myself why I attract these kinds of people. I look at my past, my growing years and I can see where it comes from. It was and is, up to me, however, to do something about it now.
When my ex P followed me to where I am now, he had an accident while working. My mother told me I OWED it to him to take care of him after surgery because I was his sons’ mother and there was no one else. Notice SHE didn’t step in and help. Well, 2 years later, the 2 of them have a wonderful relationship(?). He uses her as he used me. She doesn’t see that he purposely plays games with her. She has attacked me for recent decisions I’ve made, such as having him arrested for using my debit card for drugs, and it’s all my fault in her eyes. At this point, she and I are estranged and it’s just lately that I see this as something that I want to remain this way. I want NC with her as well as my ex P. My mother is a master manipulator with guilt as her greatest weapon. My mistake was in trying to be the “good girl” and do what she wanted. I no longer do that, nor will I. Our origins have much to do with why we end up with Paths. Today, my radar is always on duty though. I listen to my intuition. It is SO important. If I don’t feel “right” about something, I will not do it. I was such a people pleaser and I hurt myself far more than anyone else could have.
style1, I love what you said.. no more time spent on those who can’t see my total worth.
God Bless,


My family of origin are who and why this was imprinted on me.. I was the kind, sweet, pretty one and they ate me alive. I have one sister that is insanely jealous of me.. and she caused me all sorts of grieve and all I ever did was give to her. What is interestingis that she and her children in all their arrogance are falling flat on their faces. And my father told me that I tell him the truth and I am always correct. What a validation after years of being hurt so deeply. The truth is that I am worthy. I am good, kind, caring and giving and I expect that in return and I am nt giving my self or anything about me to anyone who doesn’t appreciate and honor me. And yes, in the past, when I was hurt by situations and mnen where it wasn’t me but them.. several in my family blamed me.. when in their blindness they couldtn’ see that they had set me up for exploitation. Now, they are seeing and some are getting their just rewards for being such creep.. It is all complex.. but.. awareness is occuring on certain levels. I also have come to realize that I have had a lot of jealousy around me that I didn’t see at the time. Jealously of my goodness and my heart and this also from the men in my life. A friend told me that they were jealous of my heart, the peace in my soul.. I didn’t get it at first, but now I do.. I live morally so I have few regrets or pain on that conscience is clear.. the pain thatI have in my life are from what others have brought into it.. I can sit at peace alone.. I enjoy my own company. I am my own best friend… So as now, I see clearly, I don’t want those in my life to disrupt my peace. And that is what this last man did… brought all his stuff, his past, his choices into my life to deal with… then got huffy and angry when I didn’t want it in my life. I am tired of being a man’s steady anchor while he does as he pleases and makes himself feel so important. I am the prize. I am an increcible woman and any man that can’t see that and behave accordingly is not going to be in my life, nor is anyone else.



I was just wondering how it could be that my S/P cried so hard at our wedding. Cried at sappy and touching movies like 7 Pounds.

I am also sad because when I last met my S/P to drop-OFF my son, my son kept saying dada and was so eager to get out of the car.

However, He was not as eager once dad showed up, to embrace him, nor did he smile.
He is 18 months old.
Any practical thoughts?

Ox Drover

Guys, all of you are making the steps toward recovery that comes with realizing we have value, that the devaluation that was heaped on our heads as children set a pattern for us to accept this from others in our adult lives.

as children we had no choice except to accept this as normal or waht was “true”–remember whatever “god” (your parents) say is TRUTH, but as we get old enough and smart enough to see that what has been sold to us as a “bill of goods” is NOT truth, that we are NOT worthless except for what we provide to others, that we have worth in and of ourselves, we can eliminate these toxic relationships out of our hearts, if not out of our lives.

I thought because I was blood related I could never go NC (forever) with my egg donor or my P-son, but a “blood” tie doesn’t mean jack if there is NO LOVE and respect there.

How can you respect someone who treats you like crap? How can you respect and love someone who abuses you? You can’t in a healthy way, and if you can’t have a healthy relationship with someone, what is the use of ANY “relationship”? Or as Henry would say relation-shit! LOL

My sons are always teasing me and vice versa and the “punch line” is always “with friends like you I don’t need any enemies” Of course we are saying that in jest, but in the real world why DO you need “friends” and “family” that treat you like they would treat someone they hated or despised? the answer of course is “with friends/family like that you don’t need any enemies.”

I want only family and friends who respect me, so that means NC with those people who do NOT respect me and treat me with love and kindness. anyone else can LEAVE my life!

Style, good for you, as well. and liking ourselves, our own company and treating OURSELVES WITH RESPECT is what healing is all about. Why we would treat others with respect, when they treated us with disrespect is a puzzle, but I am not going to do it any more.

Banana, I’m not sure how to answer your question except to say that lilttle kids that age are going through different stages. At one stage they will not want anything to do with “strangers” and will cling to the primary caregiver. As for the “da-da” laungage, Da is easier to pronounce for them at that age than “Ma-ma” which is why many kids first words are “da-da”

Your son’s willingness to go with your X may also depend on how he feels that day, how crankly or tired the baby is, etc. at the pick up time, as well as his familiarity to your X. I wouldn’t worry too much about it, really. I think your X’s interest in your son is more in pushing your buttons than anything else. Hopefully if you are borin genough and he doesn’t get what he wants in pushing your buttons, he will lose interst in the baby. (((Hugs))))

And Towanda! for us all! Recovering or growing a back bone is a good thing for us in planting our feet firmly on the road toward healing!


Mine cried also.. making him appear caring and sensitve. My take is that it is a tool that they use to manipulate.. then also, that they are crying for themselves. .. because when his mother died.. I didn’t see any tears… I was the one that told him, I helped plan the disposal of her remains and was with him in the months after and I never saw a tear for his mother. Why hide those tears from me when teared up all the time. He teared up when he told me how much that he loved me and that he had been looking for me all of his life… tears are just the physically expression of overflowing emotions.. but for whom and why are those emotions overflowing? I think it’s part od their manipulation..

I made eggs benedict for myself today.. and I recall all the great Sunday brunches that I made for him.. and it made me sick…
The effort, the money, the time to treat this man well.. I wonder is another woman ever going to treat him like I did.. ? LOL… doubt it..



yes the crying is a good trick. The following is from “The Mask of sanity” by Hervey Cleckely (it’s downloadable free) but read this:

We can be driving down the road at night, and ahead we see M_tel, and we mentally put the “o” in place and read “Motel.” Something like this happens between the psychopath and the victim. We fill in the “missing humanness” by filling in the blanks with our own assumptions, based on what WE think and feel and mean. And, in this way, because there are these “blank” spots, we fill them in with what is inside us, and thus we are easily convinced that the psychopath is a great guy – because he is just like us! We have been conditioned to operate on trust, and we always try to give the “benefit of the doubt.” So, there are blanks, we “give the benefit of the doubt,” and we are thereby hoisted on our own petard.


Once after a fight.. I felt like crying but couldn’t so I was in this kind of half crying.. I needed tears to flow.. I needed that release and I couldn’t let it go..
So how do they create tears so easily..?

Also, he showed so much emotion and intensity towards me, it was like I was ‘supposed’ to love him…He created this how are life was ‘going to be’… it was like a sale to get me to weather what I had to in the moment..
was this consious or was it survivial mode for him? I don’t know..? For a bit and at times, it was like it was meant to be …well, kind of.. I was never sexually attracted to him although he is a handsome man.. something about his touch creaped me out.. his hands actually felt like claws. I recoiled from him at times.. then occasionionally when I felt the need for affection and would try to shuggle in … it was mildly comforting but not really… his body felt hard and nonresponsive.. and he would turn me down or something would always occur if I inniated sex… this man is a mess… the first two weeks that we were together he worked hard to get me into bed.. then on NYE after some champage I was ready.. in all my woman’s glory in a beautiful nightgwon etc.. and he didn’t preform… Ya know … I thought too much champagne.. and months later he blamed me.. said he didn’t want to think that I needed to get durnk to sleep with him.. I wasn’t drunk.. I was feeling happy.. it was NYE.. there was always something with this freak…
I mean was is all this.. He loved me so much, thought God made me for him.. the way I look etc.. then can’t come though on romantic NYE…
then once in a movie theatre lobby he touched my breast and I was appalled… to touch me in this manner in public.. he said that he just felt affectionate..

Okay..I am getting this.. in writing this.. he liked to control and degrade women? Is that it…? Input….

Anyway.. we looked like the perfect couple and were anything but….
he is cold as ice in many ways.. so confusing… the way that he made me feel about myself and sex.. I have never had such a bizarre situation…

Ox Drover

Dear Staying sane,

Yea, gal, right on! “Hoisted on our own petard” is the truth on that, and “filling in the blanks” is also right on.

I think too, that is why the Ps have trouble trusting others too, because they fill in the blanks with what THEY feel “I’m out to get everyone else, so everyone else is out to get me” and we fill it in with “I’m trusthworthy, so I trust others” so they justify to themselves their abuse and using others.

Distrust keeps us from loving and being close to others though, so we don’t want to distrust EVERYONE, only be able to distinguish between those we CAN trust and those we CAN’T–and that is what takes WISDOM and watching their actions, not just listening to the words. How they behave toward us and others. Do they keep their word? Do actions and words show the same attitudes?

If they are not trustworthy with others, they will not be trustworthy to us. I may like to watch “wheel of fortune” and Fillin the blanks there, but you know, filling in the blanks with a psychopath is a WHEEL OF MIS-FORTUNE!


It’s amazing how well they can fake the tears on command. Here’s a chilling video of an S who tried to hire a hitman to kill her husband. Lucky for him, the police were tipped off as she started inquiring around and moved an undercover cop into her path posing as a hitman. They staged a crime scene and told her that her husband was killed. Oh, the sobbing and wailing and tears she has:

And she’s completely believable.

Ox Drover

Dear FriendofaBorderline,

THAT IS A CHILLING STORY! But I think is definitely believeable by this crowd!

The acting is good though.

Thanks for sharing this with LF bloggers.


I am in fear my 16 year old son is a P. He has hit me, he calls me everyname in the book. I have called the police, they come, he has them eating out of his hand. Now I just let him do whatever he wants, I am tired of the abuse. But because he is my responsibility the police told me I have to keep him in line. HOW??? He brings his tons of pot smoking friends over to my house and if I tell him no, he screams at me and I feel so much fear. My daughter is coming home from college for the holiday, and he will not mess with her, she is a big, strong, smart girl and since she left there is no safety. I feel so useless. I wish I knew what to do. I tell him no, and I can and will get hit. His friends and he rule my house, they eat all the food, they destroy the house and I have to clean it all up. I am tired, so tired. My son does the crying routine as well, and I have voicemail he has sent me that states I am just a bitch, and why can’t I just come get him from school, because he just doesn’t want to be there. The police have no clue on how to deal with abuse from a child to parent. He is 6’1″ I am 5’5″. He is much stronger and I have no more drive to even protect myself. I feel so trapped and don’t think I really love my son anymore.


My family ( parents, sisters, daughter, brother in law) know this is happening. They don’t know what to do. We thought the police would be the answer, but he cries, and if that doesn’t work, he gets angry. And the police say he is really angry, what have you done for him to be this way. My son was kicked out of 3 daycares. He was a very early preemie at birth, so I have thought this must be the problem. Regardless, I have no control over my home, I have no control of him, and his friends walk over me as well. The one thing I have noticed about him and my sister is that when they blow up and harm, the next day they do not apologize, they do not show any remorse. They act like nothing happened and my feelings and mind are just trying to figure out what just happened.

Ox Drover

Dear Takesone,

There are others here (including me) who have or have had out of control and/or psychoopathic kids. I suggest that maybe you talk to your son’s school counselor, or to your family physician and get a referral.

In most cases there is some help out there besides the police. Unless a child has clearly violated the LAW and committed a crime, there isn’t much they can or will do.

I would start with the school, and then if that doesn’t work, go to your department of human services (whatever it is called in your area) and or child protective services, your son is clearly a “danger to himself” with this kind of behavior.

Do not just buckle down and take it. Maybe while your daughter is home over the holidays you can go together to see some of these people and get something started.

Good luck and God bless.


My son just up and left school last week because he wanted to. I am in close contact with his school. He has an assistant principle that loves him, and he has a diagnostition for Special Ed. I finally told the diagnostician that I could not control my son and that he hits me. For once a teacher cared and took him out of class and asked him if he was hitting me. He said no. But I let someone know. My son see’s a psychiactrist for ADHD, he has seen him for 5 years. He confronted my son on his behavior, and that it was not even ok. My son usually just gives him the smile and a quick I am doing great. But when my son really hit me alot and hurt me, I made an appointment with his doctor, his doctor did not buy any of his bs and my son’s mask slipped and he got very angry and degrading. His doctor told me “you have a con artist on your hands” take him to the teen shelter and leave him and never look back. I did not do it. Now I can’t do anything until he is 18. I wish there was a place I could go to and find help. This site is very helpful but I really want to find local solutions. If it goes on too much longer, I am afraid he will lose control and really do something he may/or may not regret. I am now seeing that my childhood did not teach me how to have boudaries or protect myself and a single mom can be manipulated very well by her own child.


Dear takesonetoknowone
Take some action; in this case your son does not know what is best unless you show him by your actions. My family went through a similar situation, and I wish I could report that it turned out well. My mom and step dad adopted 4 at risk kids who had history of abuse/abandonement and neglect. Dealing with them led to my step father’s suicide and then my mom fell apart. My wife and I had to take off work and drive about 4 hours one night when my mother said they were trying to kill her. She said that the police would do nothing, and just send them back to her after their release. We told her not to pick them up, and encouraged her to sign a restraining order. The CPS finally got involved and took the 2 involved away. My mother spoiled them even after this, and could not bear to part with them. We told her to let them be and learn a lesson, but she would not listen. Well needless to say they did not learn, are still spoiled, and are in and out of jail now. If you let your son get away with this he will become worse. There are also camps for unruly teens like boot camps. Explore all of your options, and by all means get help.


Oh and way to go Judge Judy. It is very hard to clear your name after you have been falsely accused. It is especially hard when those who do it have the sweet little innocent me faces. The one who accused me was immediately promoted to a position directly above me; nevermind the fact that she also turned in 2 of her students for sexual harassment as well all in less than a one year period. And when one of her students spit in her coffee cup, she wanted to press charges for attempted murder. Her day will come. It is all good now. I know talking about it seems like bringing it all up again, but I am way past it all now- I think. I don’t hate anyone, but if something bad where to happen to them like what they deserve- I wouldn’t care either way.

Ox Drover

Dear Takes one,

I agree with Teacher —the fact that your son is also ADHD makes things worse, but you must get help through his psychiatrist. The psychiatrist can make a referral for INPATIENT TREATMENT for your son, or a special “boot camp” I am sure there is SOME facility available (don’t know where you live though) that you will be able to place him. Having had him invilved with a psychiatrist (and I assume he was prescribed some medication for his ADHD–that he may be refusing to take) you have a “leg up” in getting something done for him.

Now, I am not suggesting that anything will “cure” him if he is indeed bent on psychopathy, but if that is the case, distancing him from you will at least give you a breather to get your own ducks in a row.

We cannot “fix” even our children, only our reactions to them. And unfortunately, for those of us unfortunate enough to have a family and/or offspring high in P-traits, we must defend ourselves from them, regardless of how much we “love” and care for these individuals. Otherwise our lives become living hells.

I suggest that you continue to read and learn here and learn about taking care of yourself, protecting yourself. ADHD does go along many times with psychopathic traits, as well as bi-polar does (I think you mentioned your sister who is high in P traits is also bi-polar)

Good luck and God bless. Keep on reading here and I suggest you check out Dr. Leedom’s web site “raising the at risk child” as well.


One for the record books!

I will try not to get too excited, but I gained perspective today (I prayed for it yesterday) and here is what I was able to do : )…

P: I just woke up very sick and i wont be able to drive noah to drop him off…what do u want to do?

*Mind you, he must wake up by at least 4:30 am to get showered and dressed and get our son dressed and get to “here” by 6:15 am. As he lives at least 30 minutes away.

Me: Have OW meet me

P: No…im not gonna put OW in that situation…i will call my mom to see if she can come out here and watch him…

Me: You need to meet me regardless of illness (Thanks to advice from EB)

Me: I will be at Stewart’s at 6:15 and if our son is not there. I will call the police

P: U want me to put our sons safety at risk and have me drive while i am vomiting all over…OW was in er last night and she is recovering as well…i woke up at 3 sick to my stomach and it has gotten worse since…

Me: There is no excuse. You can guarantee this will be documented

Me: If you are not going to meet me I will come get him

P: Its too late im putting him in car now OW will meet u…im going to er

*Proof of how long it takes to get to “here” from their house: OW arrived at Stewart’s at 6:44 am.

Ox Drover

Dear Banana,

I will bet you that if he has to drag his sorry arse out of bed that early to get your son delivered back to you, he is going to find that it is not much fun if he cannot inconvenience you.

Notice the attempt at GUILT making: “P: U want me to put our sons safety at risk and have me drive while i am vomiting all over””

Notice the attempt at PITY Play :”i woke up at 3 sick to my stomach and it has gotten worse since”

Boundary setting: Banana:

Me: There is no excuse. You can guarantee this will be documented

Me: If you are not going to meet me I will come get him

Consequences for boundary breaking: Banana: Me: There is no excuse. You can guarantee this will be documented

BANAN WINS, SCORE FOR BANANA: P: Its too late im putting him in car now OW will meet u”im going to er

ALSO notice OW is inconvenienced, not the P. So hopefully OW will get her fill of taking care of the x-wifie’s “brat” (that’s her term not mine! cause she will think of your son as a pain in the butt to HER)

GREAT JOB BANANA!!! CONTINUE TO STAND STRONG, SET AND ENFORCE BOUNDARIES. You are learning!!! I am so proud of you and FOR you! The shoe is on the other foot now, YOU ARE IN CONTROL. (((hugs))))



You said:

I made an appointment with his doctor, his doctor did not buy any of his bs and my son’s mask slipped and he got very angry and degrading. His doctor told me “you have a con artist on your hands” take him to the teen shelter and leave him and never look back. I did not do it.

It sounds like a really good idea. I know it’s easier said than done. But what a lesson in consequences!
What you could say is, I’m giving you 3 warnings and then I am putting you into a programme/teen shelter/bootcamp (You choose)
Then you follow through. do! he needs to learn the consequences of his actions before he graduates to bigger cons….I would never have advised this prior to experiencing a P.


Hi all!
A couple of quotes I’d like to comment one =)
Takesone you said “But I must admit reading some of the post’s it seemed weird that alot of the posters were “victims” over & over again. I look at the common denomenator, that “victim” is the one in all these relationships. There is something wrong there.”
And Style1 you said “What it is about me is that I didn’t have total self-value and love of myself. I gave others the benefit of the doubt while doubting myself. My instincts were correct at every turn, it was my self doubt that messed me up.. ”

OK first of all, Takesone, I can see why you think that and I actually had a doctor say that to me lol! The truth is that it’s really not that black and white. While it may seem that someone is a victim of the same situation over and over again, the details and dynamics of each situation are actually very different asnd the steps taken by the victim to resolve it have been very different. There is also a cumulative effect caused by these situations where after each one a ‘victim’ is more vulnerable to being abused again because confidence/energy is low – abusive people can smell vulnerability like a dog can smell fear. Also society doesn’t really have a clue how to deal with Ps, S’s and the like, whether in personal or work relationships. What society tends to do is condone it and/or ignore it in my experience, promoting the bully and getting rid of the ‘victim’ because it’s easier.
Also characteristics of victims and attackers never change. Attackers have always been exploitative by nature and typical victims tend to be the total opposite! This brings me onto what Style1 has said – I can totally relate to what you said there about doubting myself. I can relate to other things you have said as well about family issues etc and I think this boils down to an important truth. I can relate to pretty much everyone here because we share the same characteristics of being very loving and caring which is how we have been pretty much since birth. We all have this inbult kindness within us that no P, S etc can resist because their nature is to crave that – remember at their core they are expolitative in a way that normal human beings, victim or not, aren’t.
Also many of us have come from FOOs surrounded by Ps and Ss. I believe my parents are highly narcissistic for starters and have used the pity play my whole life. By contrast I noticed how I never use it, I’m always about doing things for myself and asking for help only when I need it in a very dispassionate way so that I never make anyone feel guilty. I ask for help openly and people are able to say no. This is not the case with my parents and going right back to my childhood it never has been! My brother has sociopathic tendencies and I have a younger cousin who is very similar to Style1’s sister in that there is a great deal of jealousy there and she is extremely abusive towards me (most recently humiliating me in public and cyberbullying) in a way that the rest of us are not. I have many other cousins on both sides of the family and we all get on very well, never been horrid to each other like that.
So yeah, I felt it was important to make it clear that the path of a victim is not a clearcut one of there being something wrong with us. There’s nothing inherently wrong with us, we’re just exceptionally loving people targeted by exceptionally expolitative ones!
The only crime we’re guilty of is wearing our hearts on our sleeves and that’s the truth! =D xxx


Part of the problem is that if your son has P/S/N traits and tendancys, “regular” parenting does not work with them.
Rules the school might enforce on them, rules in the home enviorment, rules of the road…..These do NOT apply to this “type” of child.

The consequences they might recieve for their actions or choices they make as teenagers do NOT teach them any kind of lesson. The consequences make them ANGRY. They generally take that anger out on you.

Because they feel entitled to EVERYTHING, and because they have such high regard of themselves….They really do think that they are superior.. Because of this HUGE “entitlement” issue they have, everything that you do DO for them is expected and it is never looked upon realistically.

They do not give love nor do they reciprocate in ANY way in the parent/child relationship. But they also do NOT FEEL or recieve the love you give to them.

They pass “blame” and never connect the dots. Cause and effect is something that never crosses their minds.

The next big problem is that society in general and particularly those you might “turn to” in this situation…..The school system, counselors/therapy, the police, the courts (incorrigible teenager) or ANYONE else you might think of….
They just throw it right back into your LAP, even though you are telling them by ASKING for their help, that you can’t HANDLE this alone. They will tell you it is YOUR responsibility to control them.
A child under 18 can not be diagnosed with a personality disorder. And that is probably a GOOD thing. However any therapist WORTH a grain of salt should be able to recognize the WARNING signs.
Society evidently isn’t any more prepared to deal with these kids than a parent is. And it will not offer you many good solutions.

But you have a little bit of time. Your time runs out about the time he is 17.
If he is 16 years old and smoking pot in your house with his friends and not going to school you can try to file incorrigible teenager through your juvenile prosecuting attorneys office.

I did this when my son was 16 but he wasn’t smoking pot then and he was going to school (although not PERFORMING at school). So I was never in front of a judge. They gave me
a parenting program instead.

If your son is smoking pot and not going to school at 16 the judge will not take kindly to this. If you are granted the incorrigible by the courts, he will have a juvenile probation officer to report to AND he must go to school, PERFORM in school, and not do drugs or he will be accountable to the COURT system. This will make him angry. However it does take some of the “pressure” off of you and put it on the courts. They will drug test him and follow up.
If he is abusing you physically this must ALSO be mentioned to the courts. Take pictures of yourself if you can. (black and blue marks ect)

The other thing you might also do but the results might not be what you would want is to call the police when he and his friends are smoking pot in your house. The problem with this is it might backfire. If they don’t find enough drugs on him thay might not arrest him and that will just make him more angry at you and you will not have the BACK UP…..

NO ONE will really come forth and help you unless you insist and fight for that help. It will prove to be the fight of your life because more doors will slam then open.

But at his age (and what he is currently doing) the incorrigible teenager would be your best option.
If he does violate this court order he can go to a facility and be taken from your home. THIS would be the best thing that could happen as otherwise your situation is going to get much worse.
YOU can NOT file for incorrigible at 17 (at least in my state) so you should get the ball rolling ASAP.



I still feel good about the “win”. But he played out his sickness to get out of the court date. His attorney is playing along too, saying they had an appointment to go over their opposition but he was sick in the ER “overnight” We know that is not true, but that is what his attorney told the judge!!!!!

I think they are in cahoots!



I haven’t been on-line for about a week since I had to leave the country unexpectedly. Anyhow, I’ve just been plowing through the old threads and saw you shouted out to me for your hearing which would have been today and which I now see got postponed. Anyhow, if I can give you any help with your rescheduled hearing, let me know.

Regarding the postponement because S was too sick — here’s my thinking. People will drag themselves off their deathbeds and into court if they think they are going to prevail in a hearing. Obviously something makes him think this isn’t going to go his way. Ask yourself if there’s something else going on that could really nail him and blow the sainted image he’s trying to present to the court right out of the water. For example, did he get arrested for something or are there pending charges? Financial reverses? Just give it a little thought.

Ox Drover


DUH? Of COURSE they are in “cahoots”—the P lies to his attorney just like he does to everyone else. Maybe the lawyer is “in on” the lies and maybe not, but it doesn’t matter, he is on your X’s SIDE no matter what—you are not paying him, the P is. LOL glad you “got this” GF! LOL ROTFLMAO

My egg donor’s attorney took her side of the story as GOSPEL and assumed everything out of my mouth was a lie. She told him I was out to control her money. He believed her 100%.

When we were sitting in front of him and her (with my attorney) and I said, this is NOT about the money, it is to get that pedophile out of her house! He sneered and said “It is ALWAYS about the money!” Of course, her attorney is well known in the community as an arsehold and is VERY grandiose and Narcissistic.

You should have seen the look on his face when he by accident saw me in the court room the morning of the X DIL’s arraniment for attempted assault and buying a gun for a felon. He recognized me and said “what are you doing in court?” I pointed to the pedophile and the DIL and told him what they had done. This is the man that FOUGHT for those people to have control of my egg donor’s money, and look where it got her. LOL Boy, did he “save” my egg donor from ME—he just didn’t realize he was setting her up to be swindled by THEM…and truth be told, I don’t think he cared as long as HIS CLIENT got their way, even if it was detrimental to the client….or anyone else.

Let your X and his attorney posture all they want, let them delay all they want, let them do whatever they think will “help” them. STAY CALM, stay FOCUSED, and STAY IN CIONTROL of YOURself.

Set boundaries, ENFORCE them, calmly, and don’t listen to a word he says to try to make you feel bad, worried or guilty. Just do what you know is RIGHT. You are on your way, Banana, and he will win a few minor skirmishes but you have the BIG LONG TERM GOAL IN SIGHT, he is only interested in the MOMENT, RIGHT THIS MINUTE, and not in an over all plan. That is where he will trip himiself up. He really can’t play too far ahead or keep a real GOAL in mind, his ONLY goal is to make you upset THIS MOMENT. (((hugs))) You are doing well!


Below is the response sent by S/P to an email informing him of a well-child visit I had to reschedule due to what I thought was going to be our hearing.

Included at the end of each question/”concern” is my response to his LIES:

I would hope in the future you consult with me before making our son’s appointments, so I can make arrangements with work or to check my schedule so I can attend.
(The appointment is Dec. 1st. I believe that gives him enough time to plan.)

When was our son’s appointment made for Tuesday November 24th?
(This is a well-child visit for 18 months. It was schedule in the presence of BOTH of us on Friday Aug. 21st, our son’s 15 month well-child visit.)

Why was I not informed about this appointment as soon as it was made?
(Again, he was there. I watched him put the date into his phone…which was later dropped in water and he ran over it on purpose so he could get insurnace on it.)

You want 24 hour notice for everything but you don’t practice what you preach.
(No comment)

Also what would be the reason for the visit to the doctor?
(18 month Well-child; usually regulary scheduled immunizations.)

This has been an ongoing problem on around July 27 or the 28th you brought our son to to doctors to get a lead shot and never told me.
(Lead shot? No such thing. it was prescribed. Again, he was at our son’s 12 month well-child visit where a blood drawing was prescribed to test for lead.)

You also took him to the doctor on October 15th and text me at 12:48pm when our son’s appointment was at 1:00pm.
(I genuinely forgot. But I was also dreading his presence there…who wouldn’t considering the current circumstances. This was also because he failed to take our son, while he was in his care, to address the lesions on his face. This appointment was actually made around 8:30, and I was ordered by daycare to pick him up as she had done some research and found it was most-likely impatigo, which is highly contagious amoung children, and she had to keep our son in a Highchair.)

On November 5th you text me to tell me that our son had burned his hand the night before and you stated that you would be taking him to the doctors later in the afternoon. Why would you not tell me when the incident actually occurred. I Just want to be kept Informed.
(I wanted to secure an appointment, which would confirm the minor condition of the burn before alarming him. (Confiming an appointment also shows that I am following up on the injury so that I am not accused of “neglect”.) we see how that helped.)

It seems to me, that he may recognize that I am the responsible, therefore primary care-giver for our son, as I make and KEEP all appointments. He is grasping at straws. Claiming that he is not being informed when he has been present in the arrangement of two of the above mentions appointments.(*)
I am starting to think he’s loosing his mind!



crossing my fingers and praying.

Ox Drover

Dear Banana,

Darling he is not going to get “bored” over night. I told you, he will GET WORSE for a while because in the past, if he turned up th4e heat YOU ALWAYS EVENTUALLY GAVE IN, so you are going to have to STAND FIRM for a while until he does get bored. He is just lposturing right now, trying to provoke you. YOU MUST NOT LET THAT HAPPEN.

HANG TOUGH GF! YOU CAN DO IT. It may actually take several months, but if you give in IT WILL GO ON FOREVER. TAKE YOUR PICK. You either maintain control as long as it takes, or give in and let him control you. It is up to you. NOW GET OUT THERE AND DO WHATEVER IT TAKES! YOU CAN! (((hugs)))



I can’t believe I’ve lost my response to you twice. Hopefully, three’s the charm.

If you counter his drivel about “why wasn’t I informed of the appointment”, it is simply a case of he said she said. Instead, you are beautifully positioned to use his own actions against him. For example, is nonsense about “why wasn’t I informed about the 18 month appointment?” Don’t you respond. Instead, if he wants to make an issue about this, have your lawyer get sworn statements from the doctor and his appointment scheduler that (a) S was there for the 15 month appointment; and (b) S was there when the 18 month appointment was scheduled and concurred as to the date it was schedule. With respect to the lead test get a statement from the doctor that (a) this test is standard protocol and (b) S was there when the test was discussed.

In the cases which could be deemed emergency situations, same drill. With respect to the impetigo, get a statement from the caregiver that :(a) she suspected your child had impetigo; (b) she had to segregate your child; and (c) she called you and told you this was a highly contagious condition and you needed to get your child to a doctor immediately. Then you get a statement from the doctor. (BTW: she isn’t kidding about impetigo — I picked it up in Europe 2 years ago. Impetigo is Indian for “spreads like wildfire”). In these cases, the whole point is to prove that you acted reasonably under the circumstances and that included notifying S after the fact. What does he would think would be reasonable? Having your son sit there while the impetigo spread over his body while he checked his calendar for an appointment opening?

Anyhow, you see where I am going with this, don’t you? It is one thing for the moron to make the claims against you and putting you on the defensive. It is quite another for the moron to claim the whole world is lying.

As for the PI, not a bad idea, but keep him on a short leash. If he doesn’t come up with anything viable after a month or so, call it a day and stop wasting money. The fact of the matter is, while it is nice to lob a bomb into the enemy camp and blow them away, it just generally doesn’t happen all that often. Unfortunately, you have to get yourself into the mental frame of mind that this is going to be a drawn-out game of attrition. Until he gets bored, he isn’t going to go away. Right now he knows he’s got you off balance and aggravated. And he gets his jollies off that. In time, when he sees that you don’t give a damn what his issues are, all you want is his suport check to show up on the date it is supposed to and him to show up at the exact time he is supposed to, and those obligations start to cost him money and get in the way of his life, then he’ll get bored and go away.

Basically, there are two reasons to keep the emotion out of this. First, your emotion is like a drug fix to him. Cut off the emotion, cut off the fix. Second, you’re probably going to have to go quite a few rounds with him until he is out of the picture. Emotion will use up the physical resources you’re going to have to call upon to get through this. So, it works to your advantage to cut off the emotion.


I have a court hearing coming up with my sociopath husband i our divorce. Are judges hip to socipathic traits? They can be such good actors, appearing calm and on top of their game, even though it couldn’t be farther from the truth. Do the courts see through the lies when proof is offered?
It can be scarey for a spouse facing off with one.
Any help out there?


It’s my opinion and experience that the universal answer would be NO. BUT…..some are familiar at least with behaviors.
Most sociopaths believe they are ‘paving’ the way for others….trying new tricks…..they are NOT!
Most exhibit classic behaviors and lie on the same issues etc….
NOW this leaves YOU…..and what YOU must do.
I concur with Donnas advice…remain cool, calm and contained emotions. Imperative.
Remember a divorce is the end of a ‘business’ relationship. It’s all business…..
You must be organized, professional and NOT emotional.
I’m hoping you have an attorney who ‘gets it’?
Then on to your well organized and presentable documentation of behaviors, abuse, videos, photos, neglected bills, waste, Whatever your state requires for inequitable distribution of assets.
(or whatever your claims are and what your seeking).
You must know his approach and they always give a heads up….know his behaviors, his weaknesses, his vulnerabilites.
You must fight fire with fire…..
Do not feel the need to be on the defensive…..this is what they attempt by the accusations….that usually have NO basis….consequently it is just ‘noise’…..If it can’t be proved, leave it out….again….it’s noise.
We can spend the whole hearing ‘explaining’ why we didn’t do something…..don’t bother….again…if it’s not documented via police reports, TPO’s or such…..don’t bother giving it thought…’s not personal…..
I have found with my experiences in court with Sociopaths one important thing….MY body language.
NEVER let them intimidate you. Do whatever you can to muster up the ‘balls’ to be the “CEO” in the room. Command the respect by your sheer presence. Be very conscience of your body language.
This is hard, for most persons a court room/legal situation is very intimidating and nerve wracking….. you must FAKE IT TILL YOU MAKE IT! That is the time!!!!
Keep reiterating to yourself STRENGTH, POWER AND CONTROL!
Be aware of HOW you sit, WHERE YOU LOOK, and have the appearance of being natural.
Not cocky…..Natural. with INTENT!
Sit in the chair, turn the chair slightly facing the opposition and sit back, cross your legs, relaxed (FAKE IT), hands relaxed, facial expressions relaxed……and LOOK AT YOUR OPPONANT when he speaks…..Blankly, but with intent of listening. POKER FACE!
NEVER raise eyebrows, shake head or look down in frustration….REMAIN IN CONTROL! 100% Control!
Rehearse this in your living room, think of people you have encountered that intimidated you just by their presence…a boss, a politician, HIM…..and mimik the presence.
By using this body language, it flusters them… flustered they can’t keep track of lies and they are so concentrating on YOU that they speak from the cuff…..and can’t even recall what they just said.

Remember, you are the driver and in control of YOUR case…..your attorney may want to bargain your assets away…’s always your last word. Never give your power away! Seek guidance, respect what your told……but make your own decisions!

Hope this helps….I have lived and learned and this is what worked for me.


You want to be careful NOT to get caught up with HIS expectations of what you should be doing.
Don’t defend!
This will never stop… can defend until the cows come home.
Sometimes we get so caught up in our strategy we develope tunnel vision… very cautious of this. We all do it.
Keep grounded and balanced. Do NOT let him run your life!

You will never live up to his parenting expectations, because he doesn’t really have any. His only expectations are to watch you wiggle…..and defend and keep you off balance.

You can’t try to ‘co-parent’ with him. Yes….do the minimal to keep him informed of health and wellbeing…..but no more.
Is the mediator really expecting you BOTH to have the opportunity to be present at the well baby checks?
If so…..nix that in the orders!

My attorney made it VERY CLEAR, that ‘these two can NOT co parent, it’s IMPOSSIBLE”. She said…..the mother has always provided medical care/education and nurturing to the children. It is in the best interest of the children to have it remain this way. (ofcourse my kids are much older)….
After he offered to BUY my kids from me for 80K….just prior to the last hearing…..the deal was sealed! I would think this was an unusual situation that was DOCUMENTED in a letter of offer of settlement VIA his ATTORNEY. I don’t believe Attorneys as a whole would memorialize this on paper! The judge was mortified!

Keep your focus on what is in the best interest of your baby, then you……HE can worry about HIM.
I assure you, if you ‘play’ it right…..he will get bored and sick of it and move along. BUT… have ‘play’ along, YOU MAKE THE RULES!
Congrats on your growth…..with each encounter you will become more and more empowered and it will take you through the next battle. Don’t ever forget what you have learned, how he reacted, and how changing YOU has helped the ’cause and effect’ of how HE reacts to YOU.
Shake it up…..and he won’t know what hit him.
Good luck!


The judge doesn’t want to make a decision and we even presented the above letter to court and had a transcript and a note from the Dr.s office stating he never called on the dates he said he did when my song was “sick”

Here is the short end of what came about at the hearing that was heald with just the attorneys…OH BTW his attorney wrote a letter to the court explaining that S/P was in the ER over night… I asked my attorney to present the text messages he sent me saying he was just goin in that morning….DO THEY CARE ABOUT HIS ABUNDANT LIES?

The gist of it is that the court postponed your motion that we brought for now and ordered that we try to settle the case if possible (since the court knows you were close to settling at one point and the court hates dealing with domestic issues).
In the meantime, the Judge will sign a temporary order that says that at your exchanges, the party who is dropping off will go to the others car with your son. The person picking up will stay in the car and not say anything. Neither of you are to speak. If either of you do, a protective order can be sought for violating the court order. Exchanges will stay at the Stewarts. The law guardian and the court didn’t want it at police station due to there not being one convenient station for both of you that was in a safe neighborhood . I argued adamantly that it should be at police station but was overruled.
Instead of talking to each other at exchanges, you are to keep one journal that you give to each other each time you exchange your son. It will include any pertinent info (what he may have ate, his health, doctors appointments, etc.). The order will also indicate that there shall be no contact between you unless it pertains to Nyour son’s health, child care or exchanges.
Last, the law guardian and the court want the two of you to attend parenting classes which I will send you the info later. This encourages positive communication.


OXY or EB,
I can’t take this chit!!!!
So I go to confirm our exchnage for this evening and he says no.
THEN he says IF he takes him he still wants him all is assigned weekends (I was spliting TG) and says I have to drive ALL the way to him because it’s my problem I drove 3 hours away to be with my family.
Driving the whole way was never presented in court to his attorney.

BTW he gets our son three weekends in a row because of christmas and NY’s being on weekends.
He also gets him on the eves.

Ox Drover

Dear Banana,

Look, take a deep breath, and calm down. (read the other post I wrote you)

Now, look, this is SMALL POTATOES.

You knew he would throw as MANY WRENCHES INTO THEIS AS HE IS ABLE….that is a given. he wants to inconvenience you as MUCH AS POSSIBLE. You are allowing that to happen by becoming upset.

We KNOW he is not going to be willingly “reasonable.”

Don’t worry about these “holidays” in the big scheme of things you can have the “holiday” on any day you are with your son and he won’t know the difference ifyou celebrate christmas on January 10th or December 25th.

I’m not sure how you can be sure where he takes your son, or drops him off with his mother and I think he has a right to do that as long as it is “his time” so I think you need to just quit thinking about that or worrying about that.

As far as the “driving all the way” I would NOT do that if you think you can get by with sending him an e mail and saying “I will meet you at the half way point between x and y, which is Z. Then go there, give him a half hour to show up, take a photograph (dated and time stamped) of the area with your car and child in the picture, and then leave if he is not there within a half hour of the agreed upon time or if he refuses to go, I would still go there and take the photograph, proving of course that YOU ARE BEING REASONABLE.

Keep a copy of the e mail (hard copy as well) and that way you can prove what was said, and done. I know that is a pain in the ass and so on, but my suggestion, but YOU must make the decisons and STOP LETTING THIS CREEP UPSET YOU, you have to keep your head. You KNOW he is going to be as much of a pain in the butt as possible! EXPECT IT. That’s what they do, so don’t let anything he does suprise you. (((hugs))))


I am not really upset compared to the way he used to get me going.
My attorney said not to go.
I am concerned where my son is on his days because S/P asked for 4 hour first refusal which means if ether of us cannot watch Noah for more than 4 hours. we must ask the other FIRST before putting our son with a 3rd party.

Thanks for keeping up with me.


I agree with Oxy……
Your gonna have to keep your seat belt on girl… got a lot of road with potholes ahead…..mostly dirt roads ….and it’s gonna get bumpy!
Your reacting, your wishing he would comply……just because you have an ‘order’….doesn’t mean shit to them…..
Disconnect with the ‘co-parenting’ concept.
Follow all orders, document, record, photocopy etc……
It’s gonna be the same for years……

Believe me……I told you, YOUR in charge of YOUR CASE…..don’t drive your attorney away asking for parenting advice…..
I know you feel your hands are tied, but your going to have to make your own decisions, or it’s gonna cost you a bundle.
I wrestled with this do I tell the attorney or not…..I went into the divorce/custody deal thinking I was a team with attorney…..they don’t want to be a team, leave the legal shit up to her and you have to make your own decisions each step of the way.

My advice would be …….if the child is safe with G. mother…..drop it……you are going to lose some battles…..let it go……take your time with your child and as long as child is cared for….be thankful for that.

Neither one, will follow through once the ‘battle’ is over. Once the process is through…..they will both drop off…..once he see’s he has no control over you……he’ll move on.
Mostly they go for a sprint…..not the mile…..and your only a 1/4 of the way around the track.

Mine is staging another attack……my kids are much older…..but still minors…….I am plotting my strategy and awareness is key for me…..

Hang in there…..


Sorry guys, I was absent for a while, ALL EXCELLENT POSTS!!!!! Very good advice about son as well. I have had to endure screaming fits for a $500.00 gift for Christmas that I cannot afford. He took over his sisters room while she is at college and she came home for T-day and was very upset. The fighting never seems to end. You guys are really good anchors, thank you so much. I will be taking him to school the next week because he hinted he wants to quit pot, I am willing to help him avoid the group of friends he goes to school with to alliviate the availability and stress it takes when one starts getting clean, but if he plays me, I am done. I can’t take it anymore.

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