By | December 29, 2011 47 Comments

Knockout King: a game of random violence

Young thugs are proving how tough they are by attacking people chosen at random, then posting videos of the attacks on YouTube. Some of the victims don’t survive.

Read Police aim to crack down on violent new trend, ‘Knock Out,’ on

Story suggested by a Lovefaud reader.

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Frightening stuff. Can you imagine this happening 50 years ago? American society seems to be declining rapidly… I sincerely believe that the desire for attention and a sense of connection is driving a lot of the random acts of violence in our youth today. Our kids are deprived of quality attention with over-worked, stressed out parents. As a working single-parent, I have to take it a day at time with my at-risk 13 month old, and somedays I’m maxed out, physically and emotionally. And I know I’m not in a unique position. It makes me apprehensive of what the future will be like, not only for my family, but our society as a whole.


Can you imagine this happening 50 years ago?

Yeah, I can… seriously, if you believe things like that weren’t happening (50) years ago, then you must have been born only yesterday! I recall a quote that I once read that went something like so… imagine everyday, you will walk by at least (100) people that will sadly undress you, even savagely rape you in their mind so don’t ever think what you hear about today didn’t also happen yesterday! Yeah, time has no bearing on pure evilness!


Sonia, I think it’s possible to express my opinions without being snarky. Did you think it was necessary to insult me to get your point across? What you had to say was good enough on its own. Putting me down for “being born yesterday” added absolutely nothing to your post. Just made you seem kinda mean!

Ox Drover

Violence has always been with the human race….the Bible tells the story of “Cain killing his brother Abel”….and they didn’t have TV, video games, twinkies, or peer pressure to make them behave that way.

Jealousy and greed and “excitement” are enough to provoke all kinds of bad behavior.

While my son was gone to Wichita over the Christmas holidays, he parked his truck in a Wal Mart parking lot. We have a small tool box in the back of the bed of the truck with “emergency” supplies…jumper cables, extra oil, a gas can, etc. in it. Nothing big or expensive, but someone cut the lock and took out about half the supplies. He checked with Wal Mart’s CCTV security cameras and he had parked in one of the TWO spots on the entire lot out of the camera’s views. LOL Lucky him!

You know it was a minor thing, a loss of a lock $6.00 and probably $20 worth of stuff, but it makes me feel used/abused, unsafe.

The pure RANDOMNESS of it all is part of what is so scary about it. These are not people that have angered someone even, they are just human targets, attacked by young people who ENJOY hurting others for “Fun.”

In the game reserves where I was in Africa many many years ago, they were reintroducing elephants to the area. It is easier for them to transport young elephants to the new area, because the adult beasts are so big, but they were having problems with the young male elephants ganging up and going to kill rhinos for SPORT. They ended up transporting some adult males to the area to “keep order” and to stop the juveniles from the gang killings.

Elephants are very smart animals and live in families, with the males usually only joining the females and young during breeding season, but living solitary lives as adult males, but because the young males had been taken from their families before they were completely socialized, they ganged up for the “bad behavior.” The introduction of the adult males fixed the problems with the young males.

This kind of makes me think, along with other research I have read that this kind of behavior is very much because of lack of nurturing in our young….as well as some genetic tendencies, but there are so many of these “gang up” types of behavior that I think there must be something going on.

I realize too that there have always been “gangs” of youngsters who would do things that are/were not approved of, and encourage each other to do some dastardly deeds, but something needs to be done, and this kind of behavior taken seriously by authorities.


LoveFraud is being hammered by spaths today. The post attacking you? Report it to Donna. (see report abusive comment button?) Poster obviously inappropriate.



Thanks for the heads up! I had a feeling maybe that was what was up with that post, but now I know 🙂 I tried the “report abusive comment” link twice and can’t get the message sent. If you have a free moment and don’t mind, would you please report it on my behalf? I was trying to add the comment that the post seemed to be attacking me personally instead of offering a difference of opinion or facilitating discussion. I hope you are having a great day (((Hugs)))



Agree with Katydid. Just wanted to add….wisdom doesn’t always come with age. I wasn’t born yesterday but still fell for the dreaded spath. Glad you’re here. You sound like a sensible woman and a great mum. Towanda to you and your baby


I reported it but you need to too. Just contact Donna direct via email, tell her what article, name of poster and date/time of abusive post. Donna at sign lovefraud dot com


Well! Thanks for the PERFECT example why the term “wilding” fits what these yobs do when out trolling. Like I observed, MOST of them wouldn’t do such a thing when on their own, but put them with just ONE yob to encourage STUPID behavior, and Elephant BULLCarp follows.

Ox Drover

There was some research done years and years ago (cant remember exact quotes on it) but they kept rats in over crowded conditions and the gangs of young juveniles would go out and gang rape and attack.

Japan has had a very dense population for eons and they have developed a CULTURE that allows them to live in highly dense populations and get along without that kind of behavior coming out.

The amount of “space” that you claim as your own varies by culture etc. as well as where you are. For example, in an elevator our “space” shrinks and it is okay for others to be up closer to us without us feeling crowded.

My own personal space is quite large by comparison to others of my culutre, and during the time I lived in Los Angeles, I at times felt very “crowded” because of the large numbers of people….and living in an apartment, versus a house….etc.

I don’t like large crowds at all and I remember feeling rather hemmed in the last time my husband and I went to the World Cup Tennis matches in Dallas….I don’t mind large crowds when they are SPREAD out over a large area such as we have at our living history groups usually…maybe 50-100 acres with 5-10,000 people there but I’m only interacting with a few at a time (anywhere from 20-100) The density of the crowd isn’t shoulder to shoulder. Living that way though, never out of the sight or sounds of other people would be very nerve wracking for me.


You are probably one of the few people who understand me when I say I NEED to get away from the sound of the highway. If I can hear tires whining on the road, I feel hemmed in, like I can’t escape the city. Yes, I can exist here in the city, with lights so bright I can’t see the stars, but my soul yearns to breathe. Living is VISITING the city but having a house kept warm with a fire, and critters to care for and garden growing good eatin’s.

The gangs that are “wilding” now are NOT rebelling against overcrowding. They drive miles to meet up and wreck havoc. They contact each other via twitter, just like the organizers used in Egypt etc for Arab Spring. They aren’t doing it for freedom, the organizers are using discontent over their leadership to drive a conversion from the dictator governments to Sharia Law, trading one form of oppression for another in the name of religion. It’s a BIG lesson in how technology is being used to organize destruction.



Thank you for reporting it, I have followed up with an email to Donna. 🙂


Thank you for your kind words! I try to do a good job and protect her as best I can!

Ox Drover


I think part of my needing more space is that I have gotten used to a large area around me….At my house, I can barely hear the trucks on the highway, and usually only at night when the sound carries differently than it does in the day time.


Oxy, that’s a VERY interesting story about the elephants! What’s more, the lesson for HUMAN communities seems only too clear.

Of course it’s perfectly true, as Sonia said and as you pointed out yourself, that there always have been SOME acts of horrendous violence in every human society. However, we mustn’t lose sight of the reality that the AMOUNT of that violence varies enormously from time to time, from place to place, and above all with circumstances. Time does make a difference.

Come to that, there’s also all the difference in the world between harmless fantasy and perpetrating deeds of violence in reality. Taking Sonia’s example, if a woman walks past 100 men who imagine what she looks like undressed, or even fantasize having sex with her, no harm whatsoever is done. There’s a big difference just between fantasizing consensual sex and fantasizing forcible rape. And there’s another yawning gulf between fantasizing and perpetrating such a crime in reality. There’s simply no comparison between the first and the last.

But getting back to violence in general, time and circumstance make all the difference to how MUCH of it takes place. In one way we’re immensely lucky to be living in the developed world today, because there’s no doubt that in the remote past there was far more violence and cruelty than we see around us now. Consider the wars, tortures and wholesale murders of medieval times for instead. The main explanation for that was obvious enough. For most of human history, people had to struggle for survival in the most brutalizing physical conditions. Most people didn’t even get enough to eat, and nobody was truly secure, not even the richest in the land. If you were a chieftain or a king there was still someone plotting to knock you off your throne and assassinate you. Anyone who committed a crime also had a good chance of getting away with it. No wonder there was wholesale violence, robbery and mayhem.

It was thanks to the genius of our technology—that includes simple “technologies” like improved farming in past centuries—that we slowly and painfully raised our survival prospects and our living conditions to the incredible level of comfort and security we have today. We no longer have people in our own society who need to kill just for a crust of bread. As a culture we’ve become “kinder and gentler” over the ages—because we can afford to be! That’s shown up in the gradual decrease in violence we’ve seen in our own (“developed”) society, continuing well into the twentieth century.

The trouble is that conflict, cruelty and violence is by no means always rooted in material and economic issues. There’s plenty of conflict and cruelty arising from intangible, “emotional” issues of one kind or another: jealousy, insecurity, sex, suspicions and hatreds, or just plain sadism. Those things, and many others, haven’t gone away.

When it comes to street crime, gangs, and problems of that nature, those have gotten much worse over the past fifty years. It’s all very well for anyone to say “bad things happened fifty years ago,” but how OFTEN did they happen compared with today? The U.S. murder rate per capita, for instance, reached a LOW point of 4.0 per 100,000 population in the year 1957. After that it went relentlessly UP until in 1980 it was over TWO AND A HALF TIMES what it used to be, at 10.2 per 100,000. It’s fluctuated since then, though it didn’t start to come down until the public got really fed up and demanded a crackdown. A lot more criminals were being tossed in jail and kept there in the 1990s, and the murder rate did come down sharply. But it’s still about one and a half times as high today as it used to be in the 1950s.

A look at violent crime OVERALL presents an even worse picture. Here’s a link to a graph showing rates of several violent crimes from 1960 until recent years, using FBI UCR figures:

Violent Crime Rates

We can see that the TOTAL rate of violent crime in the early 1990s was something like FOUR AND A HALF TIMES the rate it was fifty years ago, in 1960. Again, it did drop through the 90s due to the crackdown, but it’s still at a level more than two and a half times what it used to be.

All kinds of factors have been blamed for this, from “mobility” to “drugs” to “materialism.” What we do know though is that the worst of this deterioration in human behavior is concentrated in “communities” where family breakdown has been massive and widespread—the rule rather than the exception—and where “gangs” in fact have become a SUBSTITUTE for proper families. Fatherlessness is a PLAGUE in this kind of degenerate subculture. Everybody should know what the famous Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan said about that “disease” as far back as 1965:

“From the wild Irish slums of the 19th century Eastern seaboard, to the riot-torn suburbs of Los Angeles, there is one unmistakable lesson in American history; a community that allows a large number of men to grow up in broken families, dominated by women, never acquiring any stable relationship to male authority, never acquiring any set of rational expectations about the future–that community asks for and gets chaos. Crime, violence, unrest, disorder–most particularly the furious, unrestrained lashing out at the whole social structure–that is not only to be expected; it is very near to inevitable. And it is richly deserved.”

“Never acquiring any stable relationship to male authority.” These gangs of violent young men, boys, call them what you will (even some girls as in that news story), sound EXACTLY like the gangs of “unsocialized” young male elephants you were talking about, who never had older males to guide their behavior! This is yet more proof, this time from the animal world, that the large scale absence of FATHERS in the home is a major cause of societal degeneration.

By the way, I like plenty of space around me as well!

Ox Drover

I think you are right as rain, Redwald, and the statistics of the young women who are having babies “single parent” is a tremendous problem. I’m not saying a woman can’t successfully raise children alone….but I do believe that children, ESPECIALLY males, require a male role model, preferably in the home.

For some males, such as my psychopathic son, he did not lack for male role models even though his father and I were divorced, as during that time he spent great amounts of time with my step father. He later was very close to my second husband who had known him since he was born, but even still….I don’t think 100 male role models would have over come the DNA and tendencies for violence.

The Senator Moynihan quote is absolutely right on —and seems to be being liberally demonstrated as we speak here in the US and in the UK as well as many other places in the world. I think the MAJORITY of the youths who join gangs are seeking that “family” they didn’t get at birth.


I think it has more to do with fear. This is an age old practice, it only appears new. Human beings have been doing this since the beginning of “civilization”.

pharmākos, in Greek religion, a human scapegoat used in certain state rituals. In Athens, for example, a man and a woman who were considered ugly were selected as scapegoats each year. At the festival of the Thargelia in May or June, they were feasted, led round the town, beaten with green twigs, and driven out or killed with stones. The practice in Colophon, on the coast of Asia Minor (the part of modern Turkey that lies in Asia) was described by the 6th-century-bc poet Hipponax (fragments 5”“11). An especially ugly man was honoured by the community with a feast of figs, barley soup, and cheese. Then he was whipped with fig branches, with care that he was hit seven times on his phallus, before being driven out of town. (Medieval sources said that the Colophonian pharmākos was burned and his ashes scattered in the sea.) The custom was meant to rid the place annually of ill luck.

The 5th-century Athenian practice of ostracism has been described as a rationalized and democratic form of the custom. The biblical practice of driving the scapegoat from the community, described in Leviticus 16, gave a name to this widespread custom, which was said by the French intellectual René Girard to explain the basis of all human societies.



BRAVO! Well said. Your post got to the heart of what I was trying to elude to about the increase in FREQUENCY over TIME in these types of unprovoked street crimes by our youth, but I could not have articulated my thoughts as eloquently (or have backed up with the stats) as you have.

I used to be in a Master of Social Work program and we often discussed the roots of social problems such as violence. It was often group opinion that children are seeking out their peer groups as surrogate families in the absence of a solid family unit to rely on.

In “Just like his father?” Dr. Leedom emphasizes the importance of at-risk children having close ties to their family to prevent them from identifying more strongly with their peer group. I’m reading her book like it is the Bible of parenting, b/c my daughter has disordered people and addicts on both sides of the family, and I’d like to do whatever is humanly possible on my end to promote her well-being and head of as much of the genetic predisposition as I can! I’m far away from my family of origin and I’ve cut ties with Spathy and his…

I agree that “fatherlessness is a PLAGUE in this kind of degenerate subculture,” but also think that sometimes no father is better than a severly disordered one. At least in the case of my child, I strongly believe this!

Katy and Stronga,

Donna stated in an email response to me that she took the comment by Sonia to be rambuncious discussion, and that maybe after I’d healed some, I wouldn’t be as bothered by such comments. I cannot ascertain the TONE of the message, so I am open to Donna’s interpretation also.

I have been quite emotionally tenderized over my experience with Spathy and the years of abuse I have volunteered for with various disordered folks. While I wouldn’t have commented that way to another LF member, I need to work on not taking anyone else’s comments personally. Although I certainly did feel insulted. Thanks for backing me up, though. I always appreciate the support of my fellow LF’ers!

Ox Drover

Interesting point, Skylar, about the “scapegoating”—-

Ox Drover

Marie, I agree with you totally that NO father is better than a bad father! But at this stage in your child’s life she is unaware of “sexuality” or who takes care of and nurtures her, as long as they are familiar and are consistently attentive to her needs.

Unfortunately for many children in a one-parent home, they are dumped at a “mass day care” with many other kids where their needs for nurturing, touching, cuddling, etc. are not met, or ignored by a family who is not caring and nurturing and doesn’t meet their needs either.

During the formative months from birth to age two years old the child needs to have their needs met by loving consistent and nurturing people who respond to their cries with nurturing, not ignoring or abuse.

I get so angry when people say about an infant “I’m not gonna pick him up every time he cries or he will become spoiled”– I want to biatch slap them! I want to say “YOU IDIOT! You can’t spoil an infant! when they cry they need comforting!”

Neglect is as bad as any other form of abuse, I think. That little girl who was killed by the ex convict “baby sitter” with a brick on Christmas day is a total example of NEGLECT by her parents, who did not meet her needs, but shoved her off for an convict to “watch”—while they went on with their lives, whatever that means. That girl was not valued, not loved, not nurtured, not cared for and because of her mother’s neglect she was murdered. As far as I am concerned, the mother is just as much responsible for her death as the man with the brick. Poor child, God bless her!


the scapegoat is an obvious tie in to the sociopath who is always looking for someone to blame and someone to be responsible for his actions so he doesn’t have to be.

Did you notice that part about the Pharmakos being honored with a feast before the beating? That’s how my parents convinced me to be a martyr since I was 4 years old. They made it seem like an honor to be sacrificed for the rest of the family.

And notice how the scapegoats are paraded around town first? That’s what the spaths do to us too. They love-bomb us and they show us off to their friends. They consider us a “score”. That’s what comes before the devalue and discard. (Right before they slander us, blame us and try to get us to kill ourselves.)

BTW, that’s what was done to Jesus before he was betrayed. On Palm Sunday, he was brought into town riding a donkey, with palms layed down before him and the people declared him King. Next thing, he is being accused and crucified.

It’s an age old practice that makes sickos feel better about themselves.


Ox Drover,

My little baby has to go to daycare where the caregiver to child ration isn’t super low, but it’s not excessively high, either. It’s what I can afford 🙁 Fortunately, I am continuing to breastfeed (as we have discussed in other posts) to provide her with that much needed comfort and intimacy. She hasn’t wanted to go to daycare the past few days and has been upset there, but I try to make up for it with more attention to her at home. Luckily, we have had a lot of days off together. This year I have been fortunate enough to take many trips with her and have 3 and 4 day weekends with her. I hold her as much as she wants. I kiss her and hug her constantly (maybe annoyingly so, I’m not sure!). But she is also now initiating affection toward me. It’s awesome!

The ex Spath’s NPD mother used to take care of her, between 3 to 6 months of age, much to my dismay. Before I figured out that she was NPD, I would try to GENTLY coach her in her “techniques.” This always ended up with me receiving emotional and verbal abuse from her. She would tell me things like “You know, you need to understand that when you let someone else watch your kid, they aren’t going to do what you want them to do. They are gonna do what they want to do. If they tie up and beat their kids, they’re gonna tie up and beat your kids.” This was after I told her that I felt a lot of stress that she watched my daughter, and yet we didn’t have an open line of communication. I told her it was hard for me when I had concerns. She said “Well, I brush everyone off, not just you. I’m not going to change.” I was trapped financially at the time and so stressed out. But I was given a way out and a restored faith in God. Within the same month that she said this to me, I got a source of additional cashflow that covered the costs of daycare!

The more I learn by reading Dr. Leedom’s book, the easier it is to see how he became disordered. His NPD mother would tell me she was only picking up my daughter if she didn’t cry, that way, she would learn she was only getting picked up if she didn’t cry. I tried explaining to her that an infants cry was their only mode of communication. She said that if she wasn’t wet or hungry, she couldn’t be carrying her around all day. I tried to explain the need for touch and comfort, but she would become beligerant with me. I was supposed to ignore my education in child development, because she was superior in experience!!! She would also turn the radio up in the car to cover the sound of my daughter crying, because she “couldn’t stand it” when she cried! My poor baby!

There were so many things that I could go on and on. When I told her I was looking for other childcare arrangements, and that I wasn’t trying to prevent them from seeing her, she responded with “We’ll see her when we see her.” She acted so ugly. She knew I was between a rock and a hard place and that her son wasn’t helping financially. She was my only option at the time, and she knew it. And her bullying was worse and worse for it. So when I finally got to walk away from it, I felt so empowered. She called me obesessively until I blocked her number. And then she called me at work. I finally got the strength to tell her I didn’t want her calling me anymore. “And why is that?” she asked. I said “NPD Grandma, I’ve tried communicating with you. You don’t want to hear anything I have to say, you don’t want to treat me with respect, and I’m done.” She replied “Well, just to let you know, I’ll probably be at court (for the custody case).” I told her that was fine, that she wasn’t a party to the case, that if the judge listened to anything she had to say, it would be a violation of my rights. But if she felt she still needed to come, she was welcome. Then I ended the call. That was the last time I have had to deal with her. It was back in August. And life was pretty serene until these supervised visits started in December and she sent an indirect message to me via a card to the baby. It was a violation of the policy of the visitation center, so I need to make them a copy of it and Spathy dad will receive a warning. Between Spathy and his mom, I’m so ready to move! Just need to take it slow and keep hanging in there!

Ox Drover

Dear Marie,

Your daughter has no problems with being loved and nurtured by you! (((hugs))) and I’m glad that the NPD (sounds more PPD to me!) grandmother is well out of her life! What a witch!!!! You are right your X is an apple who didn’t fall far from THAT TREE!

I’m glad that you are reading Dr. Leedom’s book, it is a good one, and your nurturing, caring and concerned loving care of your daughter is exactly what she needs. Your child day care may not be ideal, but it is a bunch better than being with the WITCH! You keep on kissing and hugging that sweet baby every chance you get! She is very fortunate to have a mother that is caring, concerned and SMART!!!! ((huigs)))


Urgh! Grandma what big teeth you have…..What a nasty old biatch. Any wonder daddy’s such a shiat!

Dear Marie, more power to your elbow. You can’t love a child too much. And, children aren’t dogs to condition.
I can’t wait for you to get away LP.
As for granny? Let’s hope she doesn’t need someone to attend to her EVERY need when she becomes old, infirm and incapable of communicating

sharing the journey


This topic brings out the sociologist and mum in me. Kids need at least one parent in the home to nurture them be it a mum or a dad. Whoever most enjoys the role.

I think it would cut down on our youth crime as at least one parent would know their child inside and out and could head them off if they saw any problems in their developing child.

Women are pushed out to work in a lots of undervalued and underpaid jobs and rely on paid daycare to do this.

Their role in the home as mother and housewife is also UNPAID and undervalued.

The most logical solution to this state would be to pay the housewife or husband (whoever is most suited to this most important career) a wage for bringing up the new generation instead of giving the money to daycare as substitutes.

Some women would prefer to be the breadwinner and her husband could be satisfied to care for the kids and the home.

Unrealistic and idealistic and too simple I know. But I believe that the money paid as a wage to one of the most important jobs in the world would not only raise the self esteem of mum’s or dad’s as it is so undervalued==but would also help social problems and provide the personal nurturing that we know counts.

Just a personal theory I believe in after years of juggling daycare etc to earn next to nothing for my efforts and getting to know my value in this role.

Sorry–off my soapbox now


Ox Drover

Little White Horse,

In the subsistence economy in many countries, the child is a big part of the family’s existence, and actually “goes to work” with mommy or daddy…or does chores to help the family survive. Learns at the parent’s knees. Their labor is important to the family’s good, and it gives the child an sense of accomplishment.

In a more “citified” and “advanced” economy the child goes to sitter/school and then the parents try to entertain the child during the other hours of the day, the child has nothing to be part of the home front, even if it is making his bed or mowing the lawn. My cousin’s husband who was raised very poor was determined that HIS KID wouldn’t have it so hard and be forced to work in the family business so he catered to every whim of the kid, who is now 19 and totally feeling ENTITLED and deserving to be entertained and bought anything his heart desires. He doesn’t study at school, though he is VERY BRIGHT and doesn’t feel a need to work for anything, but feels deserving of everything. He isn’t a sociopath by any means but he is a worthless piece of carp I think! He will never amount to much or have much because he did not learn that working accomplishes anything, he only learned that the parents OWE HIM ANYTHING HE WANTS. I think it is a shame that he was brought up like that and his mom agrees with me, but has had no influence over her husband’s attitude. It’s a shame.

sharing the journey

I think when you are both stressed out and tired after working it can be so easy to take a route with parenting that includes a tv or a computer as a babysitter and it is hard to have quality time to develop your child–like you said chores etc to make them feel a part of a functional family.

In my periods of unemployment I taught all of my children to cook and bake etc. Now I am reaping the rewards as we take turns at cooking dinner–even my 14 year old.

A lot of parents do what you describe and they really believe they are doing good by this. And it is a shame–because they are not preparing their child for the reality of true independence and the responsibility of adult life.

That’s why I think that the parent staying at home to do this==as stress free as possible as when dealing with children should be paid.

It should be classified as a career choice–one that you just love to be paid for like any CEO, daycare provider or tutor.


Ox Drover

LWH, Yea in an ideal world some day maybe! LOL I taught my kids to work, to do chores and household tasks, including laundry, cleaning, cooking, basic sewing, etc. and still I ended up with a psychopath and a jerk in the two biological ones, but my adopted son is pretty good with it all and willing to do whatever needs to be done!

Today’s chore was ringing the piggie’s noses, “neutering” the boy pig, and moving them out of the stable in the barn, into a pen that is large and clean after the surgery!

His latest “home making” skill to learn is he is learning to knit! Doing really well too.

sharing the journey

Ah Know. There are just no guarentees in life. I’ve saw neglected kids turn out great too.

I would just like to see women’s contributions to be recognised someday rather than blamed for the turnout of their children, For their sacrifices when saying at home instead of pursuing a career can be valued rather than seen as an easy route. Parenting is the hardest and can be the most rewarding job out.

From your post above you probably covered many a job description. Your salary should be through the roof LOL

I am a dreamer.



society does not value skills, it values looks. in my first career, i was part of a team that developed angioplasty and stents (changed the world of cardiology and emergency cardiac intervention). i can repair the spools on a round hay baler, set a fenceline, replumb a sink/toilet/bath, cook for 25 from Scratch, play the piano/flute/guitar, write computer code, effortlessly do the laundry, hang wallpaper, construct bookcases/tables, chairs, etc etc etc. i am a FARM gal.

But I live in the city now, my degree is 20 yrs old, I am not young, not slim, not hip. I haven’t held an outside job during my whole marriage, I have NO references and NO provable work history and I can’t find employment to save my soul. Not even from Walmart. Nadda. That’s what I’m worth TO SOCIETY (worth a whole lot more to myself!). It’s a race to measure which runs out first, me or my savings. And b/c of chosing to live with my spath, it’s gonna be a close race!


Ox Drover,

Thank you! I sure do appreciate all of the encouragement. What is PPD? I’m not familiar with this? It is so validating that everyone, and I mean everyone without exception, that I share the horror stories of ex Spath’s mom with has called her a witch or a biatch!


I love your post! I forget that someday she may need someone to take care of her rotten a**. The funny thing is, my sisters and I joke about our own rotten Mom, saying “does she think we are going to take care of her when she’s old and sick if she keeps treating us this way?” It’s baffling!


I love your idea. I would love to be able to stay home and raise my daughter. I wouldn’t need much! Maybe you are a dreamer, but it’s a nice dream!


If I had the $ to hire someone to come help me out, with your skills, I’d hire you in a heartbeat! I hope something works out for you.

Ox Drover

LPMarie, PPD is psychopathic personality disorder, the same as psychopath/sociopath/anti-social personality disorder…the experts can’t agree on a NAME for the disorder. There are several different personality disorders, borderline PD, histrionic PD etc. and they all sort of over lap in the symptoms. Also it is common for people with any PD to also have bi-polar and/or ADHD as well, Just having one doesn’t mean you can’t also have other diagnoses as well. Many of the worst of the worst may have 2-3 different diagnoses.

It is very confusing medically, but the thing is there is no way we can “diagnose” anyone here on-line, but we can know that a person has manipulative type personality or is abusive, etc. so don’t worry so much about the”technical terms,” just learn the BASIC signs of abusive personalities and that they are TOXIC. There is research going on and maybe eventually medical science will come up with some better definitions and information, etc. but in the meantime, we must learn how to identify PREDATORS and people who are abusive, and how to protect ourselves from falling prey to them.

sharing the journey

Ah Know Katy

Me and you both. I’m on the scrapheap too but it doesn’t bother me because like you I know my worth.

I thought of doing a massage course–but thanks to post spath symptoms of anxiety and panic it is out the window.

Pr:(k still interferes with my life.



Ox Drover,

Thanks for the explanation! That craptastic friend I was posting about had bi-polar disorder, so your comment that people with bi-polar disorder was like an aha! moment to me, lol!

I agree, we cannot diagnose anyone. But damn if they don’t fit the diagnostic criteria with their bad behavior. I spoke with an attorney last week, just in case. He told me he thought with Spathy’s history, he would have a VERY difficult time getting increased visitation. He also said I was lucky to have had the judge I had for both my TRO and custody cases. He advised I continue to document and create a time line of events and to call him and retain his services if and when I get served with legal docs.

I’m with you on a comment you made some days ago. Maybe he’ll get back into Meth and end this mess for us all. He had an enlarged heart (2x the normal size) and conduction problems (some kind of arrhythmia). I was with him in the ER when they thought he had a heart attack. Turned out it was a deep should muscle spasm. If it were anyone else, I’d feel horrible wishing him dead. But, this is Spath for sure. I’m confident in diagnosing him, lol!

I was thinking of trying to network at the University and finding someone who does neurolinguistic testing and requesting the court to order a brain scan for APD and brain damage from all the drug use. But it may be premature at this point.

At any rate, I’m gonna try to focus on the New Year ahead and be grateful for all of the good I have in my life, despite all the drama. I truly do have much to be grateful for!

I wish you and everyone on LF a Happy New Year!

Ox Drover


Unfortunately your chances of getting him a brain scan of any value to you is between none and zero. Most of the brain scanning being done now is still in the research stages….

If he is using meth, however, the heart condition (I bet it is A-fib) and the enlarged heart muscle will put him in the ground before too long. The combination of the heart condition + the drug use, probably alcohol and not eating right will all double up on him to do him in. How old is he now? Plus, they usually don’t see a doctor on a regular basis, or take medication as ordered.

I’m glad you talked to the attorney, and yea, keep a journal, document everything….and if you know he has been arrested in the past, you will have to pay a private investigator to get it, but you can get his OFFICIAL rap sheet….it won’t cost much though, as the PI just down loads it off their special computer subscriptions. I did that and got TONS of information.


Ox Drover,

I love learning about the brain and with an undergrad degree in Speech Pathology & Audiology, I was fascinated that neurolinguistic testing was being used to study these creeps! Anyway, it’s disappointing that I wouldn’t be able to get this done. I’m sure he has brain damage from meth use.

He’s 48. He doesn’t drink, but he does have a poor diet. Unfortunately, he is an avid surfer, so he is pretty fit. But I don’t know how much benefit that is when he also uses meth. He was clean for about 2 years of our 2 1/2 year relationship. He was clean and a “reformed bad boy” when I met him and bought his line o’ carp! He doesn’t see a doctor on a regular basis. Or a dentist. He’s started losing some teeth. When I read “Lovefraud” and I read James had lost his front teeth, I started to laugh and think of my ex and his teeth falling out. He’s a vain farker, so I know it REALLY bothers him. The fact that he is aging bothers him.

Spathy got into trouble for embezzling federal grant monies, and he left a copy of his federal investigative report as well as the presentencing guidelines at my house. It is damning. It has all of his criminal convictions, as well as all of his arrests he wasn’t convicted for. And he has a self-reported drug history that spans nearly 30 years, with admissions to trying or using everything from marijuana to meth throughout those years. I submitted this as evidence in my custody case. I had to send him a copy, by law. He wrote the judge a letter requesting continuance b/c he was back in prison for probation violation, and in this letter, he admits to a “lengthy drug history” but intends to go to rehab upon release, blah, blah, blah.

We had already requested continuance when we were trying to “work things out.” I didn’t know it was impossible, because he is a Spath! But, when the judge asked if I was willing to allow another continuance, I responded with “Your honor, the last time I agreed to continuance it gave him the opportunity to break into my house and have drug addicts there ransacking the place while I was out of town. He also stole my car twice in this period. So I’d really like NOT to have another continuance.” She said “I see.” She said that often in the case, lol! But she gave me everything I asked for, except to completely terminate his rights….

How are your little piggys? Are there 3 you are raising? I don’t know much about farm life, but it sounds like tough work!

Ox Drover

Dear Marie,

GREAT!!!!!! I’m so glad you have all this stuff documented on him!!!! TOWANDA!!!! Great! And in the future, remember, THERE IS NO ***NO*** SUCH THING AS AN EX-CRIMINAL…..if someone has ANY history of criminal behavior bad enough that they have been arrested multiple times or been in jail or prison for anything more serious than jay walking!!!! GIVE THEM THE “Bye bye” wave!

Being attracted to “bad boys” is a trait that many victims share, so be aware of that as a RED FLAG! We cannot “help” them or “save” them no matter what we do.

Just have two piggies, they are about 2 1/2 months old and weigh about 75 pounds….one ex boy and a little girl! I got a laugh yesterday. One of the pigs belongs to my son and me and one to some friends. They came over and brought their hired hand who is Mexican and has only recently started working on a farm so doesn’t know a bunch about it. He had never seen a pig neutered. He helped hold the boy pig while I neutered him. When he and my son took the pig from the barn to the pen after the operation, he looked at the pig and said “Is he gonna be okay?” My son looked at him and said “Yea, he’ll be okay, but you don’t want to piss off the OLD LADY!”


Ox Drover,

🙂 Thank you! Now that I have my daughter, I will not allow any other riff-raff to enter our lives! I might not have thought to highly of myself in the past, but I adore her and through taking care of her, I’m learning how to take better care of me. I agree, no such thing as an ex-criminal. And I think I have lost the bad boy attraction. If not, I will have to discipline myself to give them the bye-bye wave, as you said 🙂

Awww, I know they are eventually going to end up as food, but I just love the lil’ piggies! I think they’re so cute! I bet you have to avoid growing attached to any of them as you will eventually need to… you know! That’s funny about your son. Is this the adopted one who is a good young man? You sound like a cool chick! I’ve read somewhere on here that you are or used to be a Nurse Practitioner? Is that right? I think the medical field is so fascinating and I admire people who work in it. I could never do the things they do on a daily basis! TOWANDA to you!

Ox Drover

Marie, yea, I retired from practice after my husband died in an accident….but try to keep up somewhat with what is going on medically. Actually I have short term memory problems from the PTSD so it is more difficult for me to learn new things, I don’t read as fast as I used to and so on….but it is getting better! When it first happened I was frightened, because I felt “retarded” I had NO memory, literally couldn’t read…would watch a movie and see it again the next day and not remember it at all. The PTSD of trauma really does a NUMBER on your brain both physically and chemically.

Stress releases chemicals into our bodies that help us during times of having to run or fight, but long term those chemicals do us damage, so we have to work hard to keep our stress levels down and let our bodies, brains and minds heal.

There are some good articles here on what stress does to us and how we need to take care of ourselves. Knowledge is power, so read the articles here that are in the archives and they will help you take better care of yourself. You must take care of you in order to take care of the peanut! God bless and Happy New Year!!!


Happy new year everyone!

It’s just coming up to midnight here in the UK. Am spath free for the first new year in four years and thank this site, Donna, Oxy wise woman and my new friends that have saved me and madecme part of this special family.

Happy 2012 friends. Towanda and peace x


Happy new year. My daughter and I were having a Jane Austen evening – watched Middlemarch this afternoon…all spath lessons learnt in one novel; old and young, totally amazing. The spath dialogue still true today…if anyone has a ‘moment’ watch whatever adaptation ..but the words ‘pity me’, conniving .its just superb!

God bless all ..


Ox Drover,

Wow, I didn’t know you had PTSD as well. I understand completely about the memory issues. I came back from Iraq some years ago and enrolled back in school. I started doing poorly in school after several years of being a 4.0 student. My professors noticed right away, as they knew me before my deployment. My information retention and comprehension were really shot. I struggled to get though the rest of my degree, with panic attacks before every test, etc. I had one professor who totally understood what was happening to me. He would come up to me and whisper some encouraging words and tell me to breathe before the test! Somehow, and with the help of wonderful people such as that professor, I got through.

It took me a really long time to get the treatment I needed, first because I was medicating myself, and then after I stopped that nonsense, it was just a lot of red tape to access the care I needed. Unfortunately, I acquired Spathy in that time period, waiting to get into a trauma recovery program. I remind myself that I have a treasure in my child. And while I wouldn’t have chosen the abuse or destruction to me and my life, I am so thrilled with my daughter. She is the best silver lining out of that cloud!

I will look at the articles you mentioned. I force myself to exercise most days just to ward off depression and manage the stress. And it’s really been wonderful for me.


Happy New Year to you and all the other LF’s as well. Here’s to a Spath free 2012!

I just love this site and the folks on here!


Yes Marie I identify. Vulnerability is the spaths way in. It certainly was in my case.
Don’t look back in anger …. Oasis sang. And so here’s to you and your lovely babe.

Dupey! Cheers darlin

Ox Drover


It was really difficult for me to be on the “wrong side of the clip board”–I was used to giving advice not taking it! In fact I never took my own advice! LOL That is typical of medical personnel. My current doctor laughed at me because I AM compliant now! I take my own advice…I am on a low sodium diet, losing some weight, quit smoking…yea, I know, nurses are the worst about smoking!

It has been a difficult road to working on taking care of ME. If you were in the service and over seas, I am sure you understand what trauma (either big trauma or small traumas for a long period of time) can have effects that don’t show up clearly, especially to the person who is experiencing PTSD.

Just admitting that I needed help was a big hurdle for me. Fortunately, nicotine was the “worst” drug I self medicated with…but I have kicked the USE of it, but not sure I will ever kick the desire for it….but it is something I can handle now, so that is all that matters. Kicking my salt habit was about as difficult as the nicotine. LOL

Having a REASON to get up in the morning is a good thing too. Your Peanut is a really good reason to get up and to take care of you. Focus on that little girl and on taking care of the both of you!

You mentioned that while you were “down” with the PTSD you hooked up with the psychopath…that is very common, when we are down from this or that, that seems to be when the psychopath can sense our weakness, sort of like a lion can pick out the one animal in a herd of thousands that doesn’t feel good that day or has a thorn in its foot. They look for the easy prey, or the challenging ones sometimes….but in any case, we must avoid entanglements with them when we are vulnerable or under stress. Too many times I have seen women (and I did it too after my husband died) I felt so lonely, alone, pooooor me! No man will ever love me again!!! WAH!!!! poor me! and of course a psychopath on the prowl heard me and rushed to my side to “comfort” me! Duh! It was a cheater who’d gotten caught cheating by his wife of 32 years and she kicked him out, so he was looking for another “respectable” wife—and for some reason he liked nurses. I think every woman he cheated on his wife with was a nurse, and after I kicked him to the curb, he married another nurse. LOL I feel sorry for her.

I realize now that I was “needy” and didn’t feel like I could go on without a partner….but you know, I’m not the first or the last wo/man who was vulnerable to a psychopath because they were lonely/needy etc. I did realize though that becoming OK as a single person is important, then you can find another single person who is OK and SHARE YOUR happiness, but no one else can MAKE YOU HAPPY. We have to make ourselves happy.

If I find another partner that’s fine, but if I never do that’s fine too. I am really picky about who I would date. Not that there is a line outside my door! LOL But at the first sign of any kind of “foolishness” dishonesty or irresponsibility, it is, as Lady Macbeth said, “out, damned spot!”

Well, happy new year to you and your Peanut, Marie! Love Fraud is a wonderful place and I credit it with saving my sanity!


Moveing on,

Have been watching BBC adaptation of Dickens Great Expectations …..oooh the evil machinations of a disordered persona. Miss Haversham, what a spath if ever there was one.

Really enjoyed it all the same. Good ol fashioned tale of good overcoming evil. Hurrah!!!!


Marie13 ~

I want to give you a Grandma’s high five and a big hug on New Years.

It does my heart so much good to hear the way you talk about your precious daughter and to hear how you put her # 1 in your life. You are a great Mom and don’t you forget it!!!

Both in my professional and personal life, unfortunately I see the opposite way too often. Thank God for young, single Moms like you and many others here on LF.

COPING ~ Where are you? Is everything alright with Jr.?

Love & Hugs


Ox Drover,

Happy New Year! I’m sorry, I had too much going on to get on here. But I saw your post and wanted to wish you a Happy New Year.


Thank you for your encouraging words. I definitely eat up all of the single mom support I can get 🙂 Happy New Year, and thanks for reaching out to me 🙂


As usual, I have no time to read all the info on the blog. The babysitter comments were of great interest to me. As a single 22yr old mother of two (in the days) there was no mandatory child support and I had to work (I don’t think they had food stamps, WIC, or welfare, or I was not aware). After rent, utilities and gas there was little left for the sitter or for food. My kids ended up with little food and lousy, affordable, sitters. How lousy just came out 35 years later because they had nothing to compare it to then. Their “christian” father was never heard from again even that many attempts were made over the years by the kids to connect with him. He just can’t figure out to send a birthday card or dial that phone when it comes to the kids. My sons have a lot of woundedness because of the rejection and abandonment.
I don’t know how I ever get clean on the sitter situation. It’s as hard for me as it was not to blame myself for being held hostage by the spath.

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