By | December 2, 2008 74 Comments

Lovefraud authors to present at Battered Mothers Conference, January 9-11, 2009

Donna Andersen and Dr. Liane Leedom will present workshops at the 6th Annual Battered Mothers Custody Conference, January 9-11 in Albany, New York.

Donna will present a workshop entitled Love Fraud and how to avoid it. She’ll talk about sociopathy and the warning signs that someone may have the personality disorder. Dr. Leedom’s workshop is Addressing the needs of genetically at-risk children.

Lovefraud is also a sponsor of the conference. Here’s an article about last year’s event:
Worst-case scenarios at the Battered Women conference.


This conference may be helpful for those of you who are battling a sociopath for custody of your children. Presentations include:

  • Angela Shelton, actress and author
    Reclaiming the sword: Transitioning from pain and suffering into joy and happiness
  • Wendy Murphy, Esq.
    And justice for some
  • Lundy Bancroft
    On organizing and activism
  • Jennifer Collins
    An American family goes underground in the Netherlands, and returns to tell their story
  • Toby Kleinman, Esq.
    So you believe your child may be abused”¦What do you do now?
  • Barry Goldstein, Esq. with Judge Marjorie Fields (Retired), Joan Zorza, Nancy Erickson, Garland Waller, and Mo Hannah
    Panel on the upcoming book, “Domestic violence, child custody, and abuse: Legal and policy issues”
  • Garland Waller, producer
    Why the mainstream media have failed to cover a national scandal
  • Ben Atherton-Zeman, actor and activist
    Voices of men
  • The Courageous Kids speak out


Concurrent workshops will take place on Saturday, January 10. They include:

  • Tovah Kasdin, Esq., Jewish Women International
    Making the case: How to use the criminal justice system to positively impact child custody decisions
  • Rita Smith
  • Massachusetts Protective Mothers for Custodial Justice
    Case control: Understanding your power
  • Liane Leedom, M.D.
    Addressing the needs of genetically at-risk children
  • Danica Delgado, MSW and Leslie Sanborn
    Journeying together: Developing support and community for mothers impacted by domestic violence
  • Ursula Williams, Turning Point Domestic Violence Services
    Community advocacy
  • Dara Carlin, M.A.
    Walking the gauntlet: Coping, healing and dealing after leaving
  • Anne Grant, journalist
    Writing truth to power
  • Marcia Pappas, President, NOW NYS
    Making a difference, one person at a time
  • Barry Goldstein and Ben Atherton-Zeman
  • Patti Jo Newell, New York State Coalition Against Domestic Violence
  • Christina M Dalpiaz, author
    Breaking free, starting over for your children
  • Eileen King
  • Karen Henninger
    Media education lesson: The inheritance from the forefathers—knowledge production, power, within women’s history and women’s mental health
  • Irene Weiser
  • Donna Andersen
    Love Fraud and how to avoid it
  • Renee Beeker and Paul Holdorf
    National Family Court Watch Project: Working for solutions to the child custody crisis
  • Susan Omilion
    My avenging angel: Women who thrive after abuse
  • Karen Huffer and Robin Yeaman, Esq.
    Legal Abuse Syndrome
  • Joan Peterson
    The real alienation: combating abuser’s manipulation of children post separation

Registration information

Registration is $145 per person, which includes lunch on Saturday and Sunday. Some scholarships are available.

The conference takes place at the Holiday Inn Turf in Albany, New York. It is located at 205 Wolf Road, Albany, New York, which is near the Albany airport. The hotel offers a free shuttle to and from the airport. Rooms for the conference are available at the special rate of $99 per night, which includes breakfast.

For more information, visit

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I am a registered nurse who works in public health. I see women every day and also have experience with a psychopath first hand. I believe this will be an awsome conference and would love to attend. Unfortunately, I’m in Illinois. If there ever is a repeat conference in either Springfield or Chicago, I will for sure be there! Good luck and I hope you have a great turnout.


I live a few hour car ride from Albany and am really considering attending this conference. I have stayed at the hotel before and had a good stay. I have family in the area so I may stay with them to save a little bit of money. I can’t believe the conference is close to me–they are usually a plane ride away, rather than a car ride away.

This conference is exactly what I need!


Ox Drover

It would be wonderful if every state could have such a conference. I hope it is well covered by the media and gets national attention. Good going LF authors!!!!


I wish I could be there. This is of great interest to me! Could you announce it earlier next year so I can budget for it? I would love to attend.

Who knows, maybe I could attend. I will look into it.



I hope we can be linked here to any video footage. I think this is awesome!

Ox Drover

Will there be DVDs of any of these conferences for sale? I think it would be awesome if we could order DVDs of various things we would have liked to have been there for. It might make it more affordable for those of us who can’t travel, and any profits could help fund more conferences iin other cities.


This sounds like it would be very interesting to attend. As always the time or money would not be there for me to go. With the holidays coming up money is going to be tight around here. Please let me know if there will be dvd’s available for this conference. Sorry I haven’t been on for a few days. Seems like I am getting a bad virus or something much worse. The cold seems to get me every year. If you could keep me updated on any information about the conference I would appreciate it. I wanted to sign on and wish everyone a good evening.



OxD they are going to make you an 8-track :)~ LOVE JJ


Hey Indie, I’d watch out with Oxy … she’s got cattle prods you know…. a little zap will do ya!

Piece of cake, piece of pie.


I think I can handle Grandma and you ma ! Plus Henry has the Skillet permanently attached to his —- :)~ She would have me out cleaning the pasture and makin a garden and doing dishes after all the cookin ! And I would LOVE every minute of it! OxD is there any Good Huntin round your parts? Can Yas buy Beer on Sunday Mornin? and where is the local gaybar?:)~ LOVE JJ

Ox Drover

Dear Indie,

Darling there is no gay bar around here! Sorry! And ya can’t buy beer on Sunday morning, sorry, there too. You CAN get Meth 24/7 though if you know who to hook up with! (Unfortunately!) I had to lock my gate by the road as the locals were using my shed up there as a drug drop and every darned one would leave the gate open and the horses would get out on the road. Bummer!

Yea, the hunting is pretty good around here, but all we’ve seen so far is doe deer, could reach out and touch’em, but we don’t need the meat so didn’t shoot anything. Gonna do in a calf here soon as soon as my son C gets the knives all sharpened. He’s nagging me about how badly I have treated them since he sharpened them last! That’s the down side of having him home is now I get “stereo” nagging from him and his brother. LOL They are so darned protective of me if I cough they are ready to do CPR! LOL

You don’t have to worry about the dishes, Son C does those, I convinced them when they were very little that doing dishes was a priviledge—yea, I REALLY DID. If they were “bad” I would stick my finger in their faces when they were little and say “If you dont’ behave, you can’t do dishes tonight!” They were 11 and 12 when they found out it wasn’t a priviledge. P-son had a sleep over and after supper he rushed in to tell his pals “Hey, guys, we get to do the DISHES!” Thinking of course that they would be thrilled. Of course, they weren’t, and it was kind of like finding out that there is no santa Claus, but by that time, they had been doing all the dishes for YEARS! LOL AREN’T YOU GLAD I WASN’T YOUR MOTHER!!!!!

Actually, they can keep house as good as any woman, and cook, sew a bit, and even knit. It is amazing what you can teach kids before they become teenagers! Garden, train and ride horses, fly planes, program computers, build any thing, work on airplanes and cars, plumbing and electrical work, plus son C is a machinist and tool and die maker. Specialization is for insects!


Hey Indie,
You would just love it in the city I live in…90% Mormon right wing ultra conservatives!!!


Ok I am staring to get a skillit complex – ya’ll lighten up with the skillit/henry theory—give me some slack –dayum!!!! I have a heart too – not just a hard head……. So Oxy did this skillit thing start with me or was it a weapon of yours before i came along??


A skillet complex? LOLOLOL Henry, you may end up with PTSD from being hit with the skillet so much!

Ox Drover

Dear Henry,

I have always “threatened” my kids with the skillet, and it is sort of a “family joke” so I guess that was how it got started with you, I just sort of felt close enough to you that I figured if I BOINKED you that you would get the point and not take offense. It seems to have taken on a life of its own though. LOL with everyone borrowing my skillet to boink someone when they are talking trash!

You were just so darned hard on yourself, and I have been so hard on myself for so long, I sort of identified with that. You have so much common sense (and I do too) yet somehow you and I just threw that common sense into the wind and got wrapped up in the fantasy of trying to “help” (READ: FIX) someone who didn’t want to be fixed. LOL In so many ways, I see myself in you, maybe that’s it.

I know you have a good heart, and your intentions are good (like mine) but you know what they say, “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” I know for sure we have both been to hell and back.

Believe me Henry, for every BOINK I have given you, I’ve BOINKED myself 10 times over. The top of my head is FLAT from all the boinking I’ve done. But you know, I meant what I said in the essay about “forgiving myself”—that was the hardest part, to quit BOINKING ME!!! Quit putting myself down. Quit feeling like a “relationship failure” with my mother and my P-son. You know, THEY WERE THE FAILURES, not me. You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, and you can’t make a relationship with a P, cause you don’t have anything to work with from the start. You are doomed to fail at making something out of NOTHING, AND NOTHING IS WHAT THE Ps are.

Oh, had to take my dog to the vet today. He had been off chasing a three legged white pit bull in heat, (yea, no joke, I promise) and since she went out of heat, he had been whining and crying and acting funny, so I finally realized he was hurting….he had an STD. Can you believe it!!!!????!!! Doggie STD—but the vet gave him 2 shots and gave me some pills to give him (one for pain) for a week, and said if he doesn’t get better we will have to neuter him. At his age won’t keep him from chasing, since he already knows what it’s about, but at least will keep him from getting “a dose” LOL 18 pounds of frustrated LOVE! ROTFLMAO


I would like to address the issues of Domestic Violence from a stable footing. The Definition of a stable footing is where BOTH feet are firmly planted. When only one foot is on the ground and the other is waving around in the air, a serious upset is invariably on the way.

I am very much aware of the organization you are sponsoring in this conference. There is a very serious concern about this organizations use of false data, hype, and emotionally charged presentations that only cover the pc view of Domestic Violence which is a far cry from the well known reality. I will not debat who is more violent, men or women, but I will provide the works of two PhDs who are both very well known and excellently credentialed. I would hope that before you attend this conference which has arguably wrought much more harm in the balanced addressing of DV than good, you would read the most recent article from each of these well published academicians who have been thoroughly peer reviewed in their work.

The first is Dr. Stephen Baskerville an Associate Professor of Political Science. His column “From Welfare State to Police State”, recently published in the Independent Review, can be found at:

Dr. Baskerville’s articles can be found at: . His latest book, “Taken Into Custody” addresses many of the myths that will be presented as fact at the upcoming ’battered mothers’ conference. This book was recently given a very favorable review by the APA, among numerous other professional accolades.

Dr. Carey Roberts, is a retired professor of psychology and prolific author on the subject of Domestic Violence. His columns can be found at: . However his most recent article is chock full of easily verified data that will cause one to pause and think at this conference, if it is read before you attend the conference.

I am forwarding this communication to numerous other activists who have been fighting the entrenched misandry in the DV movement which prevents any substantive improvement. As a matter of fact, by addressing DV as mainly a male fault and ignoring the fact that women are at least half of all DV we have seen the overall numbers grow while seeing male DV stats decrease. I would hope that their more capable and knowledgeable insight might assist in making this a true conference on DV and not just more of the “same ole- same ole” that has seen DV increase by alarming percentages. Arguably, current tactics which are to assume that DV is a male only issue justifying extremely punitive handling of nearly all men and the rewarding of nearly all women, including the most abusive of women, is comparable to throwing gasoline on a fire in an effort to put it out. The flash back is deadly.

I hope a more balanced presentation and a less self-serving approach by the ’Battered Mother” organization will evolve for the good of our children and the non-violent adults (who are nearly 95% of all men and women). After all, aren’t most sociopaths adept at making strong emotional pleas that overwhelm fact and commonsense. Isn’t it true that one trait is to make statements using false or ’twisted’ data that can not be verified or from dubious sources and not thoroughly peer reviewed.

Stan Rains
patriot [email protected]

Cc: Stephen Baskerville
Carey Roberts
And Others

Domestic violence industry: hateful
Carey Roberts
December 1, 2008

Carey Roberts
Dogged by weeks of protest, the Dallas Area Rapid Transit finally took down the controversial advertisements from its buses this past weekend. Purchased by a local abuse shelter, the ads featured a young schoolgirl who blithely predicted, “One day my husband will kill me.”

Journalist Helen Smith denounced the ads as “Very disturbing hate speech against husbands, fathers, and even boys.” Advice Goddess Amy Alkon titled her op-ed, “Hating Men Supposedly for the Greater Good.” One distraught mother responded to the Dallas Morning News article by writing, “I took my son aside after seeing it and explained to him how certain women in this society abuse their positions to promote hatred towards men and boys.”

From its beginnings three decades ago, the domestic violence industry has been plagued by a cabal of pinkshirts who will do almost anything to advance their agenda.

Erin Pizzey, founder of the first domestic violence shelter in England , let the cat out of the bag when she revealed many of the women in her shelter were as abusive as the men they had left. In retaliation, feminists issued death threats and eventually forced her to flee the country.

In the United States, Dr. Suzanne Steinmetz’ research on the Battered Husband Syndrome triggered a whispering campaign designed to torpedo her impending promotion, as well as a bomb threat at her daughter’s wedding.

Family violence researcher Murray Straus at the University of New Hampshire has been similarly slandered, harassed, and threatened by radicals who all claim to be against violence.

Eventually the gender partisans got their way, securing passage of the Violence Against Women Act in 1994. Conservative commentator Phyllis Schlafly would later refer to the legislation as the “hate-men law.”

Is that description a little over-the-top? Read on, decide for yourself.

Federal domestic violence laws funnel millions in taxpayer money to sponsor public awareness programs such as the Dallas bus ads, as well as training for judges and law enforcement personnel.

Former police officer George Sperry of La Mesa , Calif. described the training he attended as “so dripping with male hatred that everyone in the class felt uncomfortable, male and female officers alike.”

But the most virulent anti-male ethos is found at the 1,800 abuse shelters scattered across the country.

A former worker at Bethany House in Falls Church , Va. revealed the facility was “largely used as a free hostel for women with emotional problems if they were willing to hate their husbands enough.”

One woman, hired to work for a network of shelters in the St. Louis area, quit in disgust after only a few months because the residents “were subjected to a constant barrage of man-hating lesbian propaganda.”

One Seattle-area judge who served as a member of the advisory committee of a shelter admitted, “I was shocked at the anti-male bias of the ladies who ran the shelter. The only solution championed by the shelter was to get free from that big, malicious male.”

Joy Taylor, former volunteer at a Washington state shelter, found that “Men were always presented as potential abusers; any goodness one might see in them was only temporary.”

Shelter residents also complain of deep-seated anti-male bias.

At Independence House in Hyannis , Mass. , Nev Moore disclosed, “Women are ordered to leave their husbands, even in the complete absence of real domestic violence or abuse.”

Former shelter resident Nezha Saad revealed, “exposure to domestic violence audio and visual materials in the shelter has negatively affected my children to the point where even they may now feel that men, in general, are abusive.” Saad demanded that “Justice, not man-hating ideology, must prevail in our justice system.”

But the problem is not just an out-of-control industry that marinates itself in defamatory caricatures of men the source can be traced to feminist ideology as a whole.

Gloria Steinem once made this breath-taking statement, “The patriarchy requires violence or the subliminal threat of violence in order to maintain itself.” And feminist icon Andrea Dworkin spewed this shocking tirade: “Under patriarchy, every woman’s son is her betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman.”

Three years ago the New York Times ran a screed that blamed the problem of domestic violence on “every man and in every class of society.” (All the research shows women are as likely to abuse as men but goodness gracious, let’s not allow the facts to stand in the way of female empowerment!)

Americans pride ourselves as being open-minded and tolerant. So where did the feminist movement get sidetracked?

Professor Murray Straus, a courageous man who refuses to back down in the face of feminist efforts to squelch his research, explains it this way: “History is full of atrocities carried out in the service of a moral agenda.”

© Carey Roberts


This will be the last of the postings on this subject at this time. I do not want to overload or to overly dominate any possible open discussion.

Below are less than 10% of the references listed at the website . But first I would like to present two of the studies found toward the end of the list that are very revealing. They speak for themselves.

Whitaker, D. J., Haileyesus, T., Swahn, M., & Saltzman, L. S. (2007). Differences in frequency of violence and reported injury between relationships with reciprocal and nonreciprocal intimate partner violence. American Journal of Public Health, 97, 941-947. (A sample of 11,370 young adults aged 18-28, who were drawn from the 2001 National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, responded to a modified version of the CTS. Results indicate that almost 24% of all relationships had some physical violence and that half the violence was reciprocal. In non-reciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators 70% of the time. While overall, women were somewhat more likely to be injured than men, the authors report that, “in fact, men in relationships with reciprocal violence were reportedly injured more often than were women in relationships with nonreciprocal violence .)

White, J. W., & Humphrey, (1994). Women’s aggression in heterosexual conflicts. Aggressive Behavior, 20, 195-202. (Eight hundred and twenty nine women 17 and 18 years old, entering the university for the first time completed the CTS and other assessment instruments. Results reveal that 51.5% of subjects used physical aggression at least once in their prior dating relationships and, in the past year, 30.2% reported physically aggressing against their male partners. Past use of physical aggression was the best predictor of current aggression. The witnessing and experiencing of parental aggression also predicted present aggression.)

It seems that if the last study, above, if the results can be duplicated would indicate that it does not matter who the children see being violent, mom or dad, just being in the house predicates the child to being violent later. Mom’s violence is just as self-replicating in the children as Dad’s.

Below is the first 5 – 10% of the references found at the website listed above.

The “Battered Mother’s Conference”, if true to its history, will not be willing to address ALL adult violence, only male violence. By doing this they are helping to perpetrate future generations of violent and abusive adults.



Martin S. Fiebert
Department of Psychology
California State University, Long Beach

Last updated: September 2008

SUMMARY: This bibliography examines 246 scholarly investigations: 187 empirical studies and 59 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 237,750.

Aizenman, M., & Kelley, G. (1988). The incidence of violence and acquaintance rape in dating relationships among college men and women. Journal of College Student Development, 29, 305-311. (A sample of actively dating college students responded to a survey examining courtship violence. Authors report that there were no significant differences between the sexes in self reported perpetration of physical abuse.)

Anderson, K. L. (2002). Perpetrator or victim? Relationships between intimate partner violence and well-being. Journal of Marriage and Family, 64, 851-863. (Data consisted of 7,395 married and cohabiting heterosexual couples drawn from wave 1 of the National Survey of Families and Households . In terms of measures: subjects were asked “how many arguments during the past year resulted in ‘you hitting, shoving or throwing things at a partner.’ They were also asked how many arguments ended with their partner, ‘hitting, shoving or throwing things at you.'” Author reports that, “victimization rates are slightly higher among men than women and in cases that involve perpetration by only one partner, more women than men were identified as perpetrators .”)

Archer, J. (2000). Sex differences in aggression between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review. Psychological Bulletin, 126, 651-680. (Meta-analyses of sex differences in physical aggression indicate that women were more likely than men to “use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently.” In terms of injuries, women were somewhat more likely to be injured, and analyses reveal that 62% of those injured were women.)

Archer, J. (2002). Sex differences in physically aggressive acts between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 7, 213-351. (Analyzing responses to the Conflict Tactic Scale and using a data set somewhat different from the previous 2000 publication, the author reports that women are more likely than men to throw something at their partners, as well as slap, kick, bite, punch and hit with an object. Men were more likely than women to strangle, choke, or beat up their partners.)

Archer, J. (2006). Cross cultural differences in physical aggression between partners: A social-role analysis. Personality & Social Psychology Review, 10, 133-153. (A review article which suggests that “women’s empowerment is associated with lower victimization rates from their partners.” Greater individualism and empowerment by women, however, are also associated with higher perpetration rates.)

Archer, J., & Ray, N. (1989). Dating violence in the United Kingdom: a preliminary study. Aggressive Behavior, 15, 337-343. (Twenty three dating couples completed the Conflict Tactics scale. Results indicate that women were significantly more likely than their male partners to express physical violence. Authors also report that, “measures of partner agreement were high” and that the correlation between past and present violence was low.)

Arias, I., Samios, M., & O’Leary, K. D. (1987). Prevalence and correlates of physical aggression during courtship. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 2, 82-90. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale with a sample of 270 undergraduates and found 30% of men and 49% of women reported using some form of aggression in their dating histories with a greater percentage of women engaging in severe physical aggression.)

Arias, I., & Johnson, P. (1989). Evaluations of physical aggression among intimate dyads. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 4, 298-307. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale-CTS- with a sample of 103 male and 99 female undergraduates. Both men and women had similar experience with dating violence, 19% of women and 18% of men admitted being physically aggressive. A significantly greater percentage of women thought self-defense was a legitimate reason for men to be aggressive, while a greater percentage of men thought slapping was a legitimate response for a man or woman if their partner was sexually unfaithful.)

Arriaga, X. B., & Foshee, V. A. (2004). Adolescent dating violence. Do adolescents follow in their friends’ or their parents’ footsteps? Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 19, 162-184. (A modified version of Conflict Tactics Scale was administered on two occasions, 6 months apart, to 526 adolescents, whose median age was 13. Results reveal that 28% of girls reported perpetrating violence with their partners on occasion one, while 42% of girls reported perpetrating violence on occasion two. For boys, 11% reported perpetrating violence on occasion one, while 21% reported perpetrating violence on occasion two. In terms of victimization, 33% of girls, and 38% of boys reported being victims of partner aggression on occasion one and 47% of girls and 49% of boys reported victimization on occasion two.

Basile, S. (2004). Comparison of abuse by same and opposite-gender litigants as cited in requests for abuse prevention orders. Journal of Family Violence, 19, 59-68. (Author examined court documents in Massachusetts for the year 1997 and found that, “male and female defendants, who were the subject of a complaint in domestic relations cases, while sometimes exhibiting different aggressive tendencies, measured almost equally abusive in terms of the overall level of psychological and physical aggression.)

Bernard, M. L., & Bernard, J. L. (1983). Violent intimacy: The family as a model for love relationships. Family Relations, 32, 283-286. (Surveyed 461 college students, 168 men, 293 women, with regard to dating violence. Found that 15% of the men admitted to physically abusing their partners, while 21% of women admitted to physically abusing their partners.)

Billingham, R. E., Bland, R., & Leary, A. (1999). Dating Violence at three time periods: 1976, 1992, 1996. Psychological Reports, 85, 574-578. (Data was collected from college students in 1986 , 1992 and 1996 . Subjects completed the CTS and results reveal a significant decrease in partner violence over a 10 year period. However, in terms of subjects’ self reported violence and report of partner violence, women were consistently more aggressive than men.)

Billingham, R. E., & Sack, A. R. (1986). Courtship violence and the interactive status of the relationship. Journal of Adolescent Research, 1, 315-325. (Using CTS with 526 university students found Similar rates of mutual violence but with women reporting higher rates of violence initiation when partner had not–9% vs 3%.)

Bland, R., & Orne, H. (1986). Family violence and psychiatric disorder. Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, 31, 129-137. (In interviews with 1,200 randomly selected Canadians found that women both engaged in and initiated violence at higher rates than their male partners.)

Ox Drover

Dear STan,

I realize thatyou addressed this letter to Donna, but I would like to put my two cents worth in.

This blog does not “target” males, we have many men on here who have been abused by females, we have articles here on female psychopaths. Not all domestic violence is from psychopaths or other personality disordered people, but much is.

No one on this site is ANTI MALE in any way, shape or form, this site is against VIOLENCE of any kind; physical, emotional, spiritual, mental or financial. We also have people who have been in same sex relationships. Personality disordered people are not of one sex.

I realize there are “man hating” females and “woman hating” males, but our group here is “equal opportunity” in every sense of the words. There is no bias in this group.


I have yet to hear from the Lesbian who has endured the same abuse! I don’t mean that I doubt it is happening but so far they are not represented! LOVE JJ


Stan What is Your Point?
Any abuse what so ever is non-tolerable! Period!
A loving careing mutual RELATIONSHIP does not include abuse in any form shape or mental coersion! Period !
A Union of two people does not validate abuse in any way ever for any reason! period!
So what is your point?
The only point I can see is that lots of people get together for the wrong reasons to begin with and they should KNOW BETTER! But we do not teach people in schools what is the proper procedure for making a life choice because we have taken the BIBLE out of the Schools! Do they still say the Pledge of alegence to the USA ? Probably NOT! The Country Is a Mess because of this! Capitalism is a JOKE! Democracy and capitalism go together as well as Common and sence! LOVE JJ


OHHH IndigoBlue _ One of my son’s told me he was a lesbian.




I’m gonna go eat some worms!


OxD, there is actually one bias in this group. I take offense when people compare sociopaths to snakes. I actually like snakes and find them to be beautiful inoffensive creatures!!! 🙂


I don’t understand STAN?

So what is the solution? Women do get battered and beaten up by men. Yes, there are men who are battered by women.

But what are we supposed to do?

So are we being unfair by having shelters for women that have been battered and abused. This somehow equals an agenda against men?

I work at a Children’s Shelter and hear from kids all the time how Mommy gets hit by Daddy.. or Mommy and Daddy hit eachother.

I don’t know what my point is but I don’t know what Stan’s point it either. What is the solution you are proposing Stan? Are you proposing that we should have shelters for victims of DV? Shelters and organizations like these educate people and frankly, they SAVE LIVES.

Now where is my skillet? No, just kidding!

BTW.. I don’t hate men but I do hate abuse.


Stan: If you are complaining about where the shelters are for men … why don’t you start them in all 50 states. I’m sure they could use a place to go when things get out of control at home and they find themselves locked out. Most guys just go to motel rooms thinking it will blow over after a night or 2.

Abuse comes in all shapes, sizes, sexes, nationalities … etc. It’s all about the person’s ego being out of control.

Believe me … I worked with very abusive women. I never understood how anyone would date them, never mind being married. And, their husbands are all such nice guys. Here’s another statistic on the opposites attract theory. I wonder what these husbands would think if they saw their wives in action at the workplace? I know they would never believe it even if they witness it in person.



I will respond to you because, I believe my response addresses many of the other replies to my postings. I believe the defensiveness of the replies to my posting speaks volumes.

First it speaks of a certain amount of ignorance on the subject. This is not meant as an insult, just a simple observation. Nearly all are spouting the propoganda presented by those who have a dog in the hunt (income, usually)

Wini’s very kind and empathetic response showed this. “why don’t you start them (sic, men’s shelters) in all 50 states.” The funding for “WOMEN’S SHELTERS” is not for “WOMEN’S SHELTERS” the funding statement by Congress is for each shelter to provided equally for both genders. The funding battles are fierce. The shelter movement uses subterfuge, misdirection, and twisting of facts and data to ‘NOT’ provide for both genders, it would mean giving up power, control, prestige, etc… all the attractors for sociopaths. The media is beginning to pick up on the pervasive abuses by the shelter movement, its directors, and its staff.

It is particularly telling when an attempt to warn Donna, if she was not already aware of the very open intolerance and misandry promoted at this particular conference.

On the list of speakers, there is not a single voice that does not pander in some degree to the most extreme of the misandrist factions of radical Feminism. I do not see a single voice from the other side in this line-up. I do not see a single proponent for the handling of DV as a non-gender item. That is the first indication that their are other agendas controlling. To stop the violence we need to address the reality that women are at least half of all perpetrators, until our programs, funding, and conferences do this we will only be propogating more of this sad human condition.

It is no longer surprising that any effort to address this sacred money cow of bigoted DV programs that actually increase violence in the overall population gets the riducle, demeaning, diminishing, and insulting responses. The type and quality of response indicates the high level of bigotry, no matter how the writers attempt to say “I don’t hate men”.

I was neither complaining nor attacking, merely warning a person whom I have considered intelligent and open minded enough to respect. The material Donna has presented on her website and blog has been for the most part very accurate and generally on topic with legitimate and peer reviewed material to back her up. The Battered Mothers group does business in the opposite manner and from its tactics and approaches could be considered a sociopathic organization by the very definition of sociopathy that Donna uses here on this site.

If the organizers were really interested in stopping violence, instead of promoting what perpetrates it, there would be a much more balanced roster of speakers. Again, look at who is scheduled to speak and look at their statements through the filters of Donna’s own presentations and those of the two authors I recommended in my first two posts on this topic.

I hope, for all our children’s sakes, that at least some of you will begin to review DV outside the closed loop of the current women’s shelter culture. They receive very big money and rely on emotional, twisted, and false appeals to maintain their money flow. As usual, its all about the money and not about real victims and children, no matter what type of imagery their name presents. I am surprised they do not call themselves the “Crippled Bleeding Baby Organization” as cynically as they use the “Battered Mothers” title. Yes some good does come from that group, but it does not balance out the greater harm it does.

It hurts nothing to read the recommended articles, it may actually help to open a door to a more balanced perspective. One can only hope.

Best Wishes,



I get it! I have been there . The Police looked at me and then at Him! They saids He’s a little guy! What they did not know was Was how this little guy has no Boundries and no Concience!

If I hit him , I knew I had better KNOCK HIM OUT! Because after i hit him he would have a reason to GO BALISTIC!

The police helped me after they where court orderd to do so and by that time it was to late!

Elizabeth Conley


It is wrong that there aren’t enough men’s shelters in the U.S. I’ve tried to find shelter and/or emergency housing for men before. No dice.

I personally believe that domestic violence could decline if men could get safe, low cost housing. All the YMCAs in our area have stopped serving the needs of men, and started catering exclusively to families. If men had somewhere to go other than the streets when home became unbearable, home would be safer. Because there are almost no men’s shelters, home can become a pressure cooker for the explosive rage of both genders.

Like you, I think the anti-male, pro-female rhetoric needs to be toned down. Unlike you, I’m unconvinced by the statistics that women abuse at the same as or higher rate than men. Here’s why: the death toll and casualty count is higher on the female side of the battle. Furthermore, I’ve noticed that when men maim and kill women, they always complain that it’s because she’s abused him in some manner. Abusers always complain that they’re the aggrieved party. I’m pretty sure they believe it too. Trouble is, the other “combatant” is sporting serious injuries or cooling to room temperature on a stainless steel table downtown.

I study martial arts. I usually spar with men. The number of blows we land on each other are roughly equal. They are almost never injured, but if I’m not heavily padded, the bruises I collect often take weeks to heal. Some of the injuries have taken months. In spite of this, the men whine like babies over the slightest discomfort. I have a hard time sympathizing over some bruiser’s skinned knuckle while I’m nursing cracked ribs. He’ll forget his knuckle in a few days, my chest will be bound for weeks. God help the sorry whiner who expects me to kiss his boo boos. The blunt truth is that men are stronger than women.

So the rhetoric on both sides is out of control. Both sides exaggerate wildly to support their arguments. Men and women engaged in domestic disputes make baffling claims of mutual cruelty, and even direct witnesses are confused. The same is true for the two profemale/promale factions of the domestic abuse issue. Neither side is talking sense, and the truth is the first casualty in their every dialog.



I am one who runs a blog about female offenders. One problem is that to many places, organizations, etc want to polarize the issue and they approach it under the guise of mens rights or womens rights. It is a human rights issue and there will continue to be struggles as long as the polarization of issues continues.

From a 2005 study of more than 17,000 California residents that appeared in the June 2005 issue of the American Journal of Preventive Medicine:

One in six adult men reported being sexually molested as children, and — in a surprise finding — nearly 40 percent of the perpetrators were female.

I think that in time this issue will be looked at. But just like DV and child abuse were ignored for years so too is this. It never comes quick enough and never can come quick enough.

When it comes to DV just know that the change is starting with the California Appellate Court ruling saying that it is unconstitutional for DV shelters that get public funding to deny services to men or boys.

Here is the link to my site also if you wish to view it:

Elizabeth Conley


When it comes to sexual molestation of boys, I think the boys are victimized at a higher rate than even they are aware of.

Several of my male friends have expressed a bit of ambivilance and confusion over their earliest sexual encounters with girls who were significantly older, or even women. If the genders had been reversed, I think the exploitation they had experienced would have been more clearly understood.

Gender bias in our culture is so pervasive that victims, perpetrators and advocates alike are all likely to be confused about what constitutes sexual exploitation/abuse.


And it is not just men battering women or women battering men. Men abuse other men, women abuse other women as well though it is often left unsaid in discussions on DV. Toss in the abused children and it becomes clear that everyone is impacted by abuse and it is not a gender specfic issue nor should it be.

And Elizabeth I agree. I have a post up where a judge refused to jail a 40 year old woman who sexually abused a 14 year old boy because “he seduced her”.


Donna, et al…,

I am glad that you recognize some of what is at issue and at stake. I certainly appreciate your wanting to work from within to attempt to adjust the focus to include all abusers.

And, yes, there are both men and women who are violent and abusive. As an activist and occasional court watcher in this arena, I see the courts in action. I see children losing in nearly all divorces. Each time a man or woman is wrongly removed from being an equal parent, the children are harmed for life. Just look at the stats on children from single mother homes. The courts, currently are giving children almost all the time to the women. That being said, the worst court action I have seen was against a good mother in favor of a very bad dad. But that was only one out of probably hundreds of cases of which I have become aware in the past 15 years of involvement. The only reason that more women are not grossly abused as men are in court is because it is more pc to abuse men. The scary part is that the courts will just as readily and easily turn on women. Either is a violation of law and government’s social contract with all of us as citizens.

Until we stop playing gender wars for hate and profit, we will only see an ever-growing problem of generational tragedy.

Thank you for what you do on this site. I have recommended it quite widely in the many communication circles where I participate.

My personal opinion is that the gross misinformation perpetrated at this annual event is similar to the Klu Klax Klan or American Nazi party. I realize that sounds strong, but if you were to change the word man for black and woman for white or man for Jew and the word woman for Arian, the reality is striking.

This situation came about not overnight but over a prolonged period, inch by inch. I would hope you will try this little test for inhuman and abusive agendas that I outlined in the paragraph above. It can be used with any presentation as a simple test for legitimacy. Its use at the cynically named “Battered Mother’s Conference” can provide much insight into why addressing DV has gone backwards in the past 30 years and why those who profit from this crime against humanity have an interest in not providing real help, but misdirected and wasted resource.


As you can tell, I am very passionate on this topic.

To Elizabeth, thank you for your contributions. Yes women bruise easier and do not bones as strong as men. And yet, men have a weakness when it comes to their wives and children that is being exploited to the point we have nearly 20, 000 men committing suicide each year over loss of wife and children. Combat suicide resulting from men being divorced while in combat and unable to defend themselves and their children at home in court is reaching critical levels never seen before.

Young males being raped and abused is swept under the rug and yes 40% is one figure bandied about, but all the studies are kept under wraps on the true figures. It took me years to get the numbers on men committing suicide from loss of family (often euphamisticly called ‘relation issues’) from CDC. I finally got it in a backdoor referral from an M.D. in Washington who then told me the individual at the CDC who he had obtained the data from.

The dollars to the women’s shelter movement are huge. Careers are at stake that are very, very profitable. The addressing of DV by women is seen as a threat to that funding. It is a tragedy of truly epic proportions and the media is largely silent. But, step by painful step, we are beginning to be heard. For that I am very grateful.



I have transcripts of a mother testifying the molestation of her two year old child and three other little girls by a serial pedophile was both “humorous” and “appropriate”. She was given custody the next day.

I have participated in a successful action against a female court reporter who ‘lost’ both her transcribed recording and the audio recording of testimony from the same mother who testified she and her sisters had been prostituted by their mother when as young as 9 and 11 on a regular basis. No one was prosecuted but the court reporter was sanctioned by her board.

I am in possession of a video of a small girl making a spontaneous outcry that her mother fondled her genitals. The child made this outcry on several unrelated occasions, including to the babysitter hired by the mother. No one was prosecuted.

I can go on for hours and provide transcripts and public record. Gender Bias is exacerbating all forms of DV. It is not a gender competition. It is a human tragedy. No one is safe when we play bigot games or allow others to play those games without challenge.

It will only take the work of many kind hearted men and women like yourselves to bring about substantive change. The problem of DV has gotten worse under the current gender directed approaches.


Ox Drover


Thank you for this great conversation. I hear your passion as well, and I realize that many things about how DV is being handled are not being handled well.

As a woman I realize that women have not had “equal rights” with men since the dawn of time, and to some extent still don’t in business and in the home, men still earn more money than women (on average) and women are generally smaller and less physically able to defend ourselves. But I also realize that women can be and are abusers as well as men.

This abuse issue should NOT be about gender but about ABUSE. My son just got divorced from a psychopath who tried to kill him. Fortunately, she went to jail and is on 5 yrs probation. Her psychopath (professionally diagnosed) BF who is a 3-time sexual offender (convicted) is also in prison right now for his part in the crime of attempted murder.

I have a psychopathic son who is doing prison time for murder of a young lady, and so I do know that gender is not the issue it is violence and malevolence in people who are personality disordered. I think we all need to work together to spread the word in whatever way we are able to do so. Donna fortunately has worked hard to build a stage from which she is more able to spread the word than most of us are, but it takes many individuals working together to make real and lasting change.

Elizabeth Conley


My grandmother used to say that she didn’t believe in granting men equal rights. She said that she didn’t think men were clever enough to cope with the responsibilities inherent in that much freedom.

Grandmother was being playful, but seen from the point
of view of a woman who had enjoyed a great deal of personal freedom coupled with responsibilities distinct from those of her husband, her argument made sense.

If she were still around, I’m sure she’d say that abuse is neither a women’s rights issue nor a men’s rights issue, but rather a human rights issue.


Oxy, Elizabeth & Stan: I keep pondering the concept of why so many are irresponsible in our society today. I thought maybe it was that the last few generations didn’t need to be responsible since it was our grandparents generation that built this country … then after WWII, children born after that time got to reap the rewards of their parents and grandparents generations. Then I had to remember, there was abuse happening even back then. So, I went back to what my father always said to me, that at the age of 10 years old, he made a conscious decision if he ever was lucky enough to marry and have children, he would never treat his wife or children disrespectfully like his father did his mother and him and his siblings. So it does come down to consciously being aware and then making decisions of how you are going to conduct your life. How to get this theory through to people who live in their Big egos … is still the perplexing problem we are still facing, with no conclusion to a resolution. I know for me, the Bible is the ultimate blueprint in how to conduct your life, yet you can’t get people to pick up the Bible, never mind read it’s contents. Then I was thinking, maybe advertising can conduct said services for our society … spinning from the Bible as they conduct their campaigns. And of course, bringing the wisdom of the Bible back into the classrooms.


About Domestic Abuse:

I had an altercation with my ex S one time that haunts me to this day and I wonder if I am guilty of abuse.

My ex was dominant and controlling. He did not want me stopping anywhere on the way home from work and timed me. Also, he used to inspect my clothes when I arrived everyday…just setting the stage here.

One day I asked him if he could stop at the dry cleaners. He had a psycho moment and accused me of stopping there on my own behind his back. When I defended myself, he grabbed me by the throat and spit in my face. I was in tears and wanted to leave the house. I went in the bathroom and slammed the door crying. He came in and I told him to let me out of the bathroom I needed to go for a ride. He refused to let me out. I kept screeming “let me out!” He wouldn’t. I felt trapped and scared more abuse was coming. I puched him in the arm over & over again telling him to let me out. Finally he did and I got in my car and left. Was my hitting him abusive to him?


Iwonder, I will give you my thoughts on what you asked. No I do not think what you did to him was abusive. To me it sounds like your reaction was more defensive. I have been there. I know that feeling so well that when you shortly described the moment I went back in time. When you said he spit in your face and grabbed your throat I felt like I wanted to puke and felt angry at the same time. Again, I remember all too well. When you left and thought about that particular situation and your reaction, did you worry about the confrontation when you arrived back at home? That was something that I used to deal with one S in my life. Friends all thought he was wonderful. Only very few knew the truth. In the end I was the blessed one. I finally got away. If you hitting him in the arm after all the things he had done to you was considered abusive by professionals, I would have to sit back and rethink the respect I have for professionals in this field. I will end with one thought……. What does a hurt trapped animal do? They usually attack even when someone is truly trying to help.



Iwonder: Yes it was abuse on your part. I wouldn’t loose any sleep over it. That episode was a big RED flag … not allowing … not allowing? Who is anyone to not allow?

I’m shaking my head … I bet you 10 to 1, that he was cheating on you at the time he demanded total control over you, your whereabouts, to come right home. His own guilt was spilling on to you … and because he cheated on you already, he just assumed you would be as spineless as he was already.


Ox Drover

There are two kinds of “violence”—the kind where a cat is trapped in a corner by say a dog. The cat is in a defensive mode and very violent.

The other kind of violence is when the same cat is out STALKING prey.

Yes, victims do exhibit “Violence” from time to time, because we feel threatened and trapped. Is that “abuse”? I don’t think so, but a normal response to being cornered, fearful, and feeling threatened.

Can we BECOME vengeful and become stalkers ourselves? Yes, can we BECOME abusive with planned violence? Yes!

Violence begets violence and when we are scared and in pain we can become the vengeful stalkers ourselves, if we don’t get out of the situation.

One of the hardest things I had to do was to realize that I MUST FORGIVE MYSELF for all the ugly things I have done and said to others, including my Ps and their enablers because of the pain I was in myself from grief and abuse.

I do not ever want to feel that much anger and resentment again, and I will disengage from anyone who misuses me or provokes that kind of feeling in me again. If I MUST, I will defend myself, even using violence if I must, but I will do whatever I can to avoid conflict or abuse that will require that I defend myself with violence.

Elizabeth Conley


You punched him in the arm over and over. Sorry to tell you this sweetie, but you “punch like a girl”.

Sure, there will be people who will say you’re guilty, just because you struck a blow. The “hitting is always wrong” pantywaists are a blight on humanity.

Analyze the violent physical contact. He grabbed, he spit and he cornered. You punched. Taken out of context, grabbing, striking and spitting sound less violent than punching. Punching sounds more violent.

Now let’s analyze intent/effect:

Grabbing by the throat was intended to terrorize and control. I bet it worked.
Spitting was intended to express contempt. I bet you felt the degredation.
Cornering was intended to control. It worked.
Punching was intended to gain freedom. Frankly, if you had intended to harm him you would have kicked and clawed. As I’ve already noted, you punch like a girly-girl.

The differences in the analysis of violent physical contact vs intent/effect is why women should never, ever, ever get in a man’s face, shriek, grab at his cloths or try to corner him in order to continue an argument. These behaviors are degrading and controlling assauts, and are liable to get us shoved, trampled or punched. Men trample shove and punch a lot more effectively than we do.

In self defense talks we call allowing the angry man to retreat tactic “Let the Wookie win.” Actually everyone wins when tempers are allowed to cool before the discussion continues.

Sometimes woman attack repeatedly before they’re punched, shoved or trampled, yet no one recognizes what the woman did that forced the issue. That’s why it’s important to analyze both intent/effect and violent physical contact. DV incidents are hard to sort out.

Taking gender out of the analysis can actually clarify things.

Elizabeth Conley

PS – the most important aspects of self defense have nothing to do with fighting.

Many people advocate learning martial arts to defend yourself. After having done just that, I advocate avoiding high conflict situations and relationships. If you have to use martial arts to defend yourself, you are in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person/people. Don’t ever, ever, ever go back.


Iwonder: If you ever find yourself in a situation that your life is in jeopardy and there is real danger that your life will be taken by the opposing party … I don’t know your size or your weight … best defense for protecting yourself in a life threatening situation … is to put your entire body weight behind your punch right to the perpetrator’s throat. Everyone needs to breath. He/she will need to regroup and catch their breath … giving you precious seconds to get away and run for your life… then call or have someone call the police.


Hi Liz:

I didn’t get in his face. He came right up to mine close and accused me of going to the cleaners by myself behind his back. I defended myself and said I didn’t. He did not like the talk back…which is why he grabbed me. I was just trying to get away..get distance. But he came into the bathroom. I was cornered and didn’t know what was coming next. Later, he said he just didn’t want me to leave the house mad and perhaps get in a car accident. What he was doing was trying to dominate and control and I did not like it.

He left for 2 weeks after that…stayed at his girlfriends but told me he was at a friends house. What was going on underlying was that he was with this OW and wanted to be with her but had nowhere else to live so he would cause fights gaslighting and then leaving to her. He would come back and say he wants to work it out…this was the cycle. He was going back and forth for like 8 months until I found out about her and kicked him out.

Maybe that was the plan anyway…to go live with her. Maybe he wanted to abuse me so bad I’d throw him out because he was a coward to break up with me.

Elizabeth Conley

“I didn’t get in his face…. (he was) trying to dominate and control (me) and I did not like it.”

I know. That came through loud and clear.

I was just pointing out that when the genders are reversed and a man is in your position while it is the woman who is doing the stitting, yelling, grabbing and cornering, the man is often found guilty of assault because of his efforts to escape.

If that were the case, he’d no more be guilty than you were.

I’m not saying women who spit/yell, grab, shriek and corner deserve to lose half their teeth to a punch. I’m saying that getting in someone’s face and spit/yelling, grabbing and cornering are wrong regardless of gender.

Put another way: Your S was wrong because of what he did and the context in which he did it, not because he was male.


Iwonder: A first episode like what you wrote would have been the reality of the relationship was over. On your part. You didn’t need to wait for him to make the decision, you should have! What you taught him from the very first off the wall situation which confused you … was what he needed to know, how much you would take. Your life is NOT baseball. It’s not three strikes and you are out. It’s one strike and you should think to yourself and know this absolute TRUTH … why in the world did I let this character come into the ball park to play!!

Yes, they do cause arguments with the home based partner so it gives them time to visit with the other partner(s) … YES – plural. Do not assume the OW is the only one he has going on the side. There are many OWs. Many… even when he started seeing you … you were one of many.


Elizabeth Conley


“What you taught him from the very first off the wall situation which confused you ” was what he needed to know, how much you would take. ”

True, true, true. Boy, if I ever take garbage off an S, P or N again, will somebody, anybody please give me a good, brisk boot to the head? It would be an act of kindness!

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