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By | May 19, 2012 281 Comments

Mary Kennedy feared her husband, RFK Jr., ‘was trying to gaslight her’

Mary Richardson Kennedy, wife of Robert F. Kennedy Jr., hanged herself in the barn of her estate on Wednesday, May 16. Here are some excerpts from news articles about the case:

• Kennedy married Mary Richardson just three weeks after divorcing his first wife.

• Kennedy filed for divorce two years ago. According to the New York Post, “he’d slapped her with several restraining orders and had her found in contempt of court and had reportedly wrested custody of their four children away from her.”

• The Post also quoted a friend as describing Mary Richardson as “psychologically tortured.”

• Kennedy, in the meantime, carried on a high-profile romance with actress Cheryl Hines.

• Mary Richardson was deep in credit card debt.

• Back in 2007, Robert Kennedy tried to drive Mary Richardson to a hospital for treatment. A friend told the New York Daily News that Mary feared her husband was trying to gaslight her.

Read:
Mary Kennedy suicide: Estranged wife of Robert Kennedy Jr. was ‘lost and alone,’ on NYDailyNews.com.

Debt, drugs and divorce battle added to RFK Jr. wife’s troubles: pals, on NYPost.com.

Wake held for Mary Kennedy after ugly and unusual court battle, on NYPost.com.


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DawnG

Here’s proof that the public persona just doesn’t square with what happens in private.

I loved RFK Jr for his activism following the 2004 presidential election. I loved his articles in Rolling Stone and he was excellent on Air America.

And apparently he’s a complete D-bag. His poor wife. Her poor family. Can you imagine taking on the Kennedys?

Ox Drover

The entire male Kennedy clan were in my opinion “D-bags” as Dawn G said.

Old Joseph got his start financially in moonshine and prostitution. John who was “idolized” by the press and many people as some kind of political saint would bring in Marilyn Monroe and other women when his wife was gone…Robert Kennedy (John’s brother) was just as much a womanizer….and a narcissist….Ted Kennedy was a womanizer and let the woman die in the over turned car while he tried to formulate an alibi…he might have saved her if he had tried.

Then the one who killed that little girl with the golf club and was finally sent to prison for it, and the one who raped the woman…but got off…you know the entire bunch as far as I am concerned are all HIGH IN PSYCHOPATHIC TRAITS.

It doesn’t surprise me that he gas lighted this woman until she killed herself….or maybe she was murdered, who knows?

Just because they are rich and “famous” for their “good works” politically doesn’t mean they are not a nest full of vipers and SNAKES IN SUITS.

kim frederick

Oxy, my thoughts, exactly.

clair

So, it turns out that RFK, Jr is a fake: The public persona is the opposite of the actual private man. This guy is literally a “love fraud” & a real Spath. Using the courts to take away Mary’s children & pushing her into bankruptcy. He was also destructive to his first wife after he was thru with her. Good point, Oxy, that so many of the Kennedy men were/are Spaths. What an F’ing SOB. RIP, Mary.

G1S

Say what you will about the Kennedys, I know that they are no saints, but this woman had an overwhelming number of personal issues herself.

The credit card debt is hers. Alcoholism and drug addiction are hers.

I feel uncomfortable with this topic here. It’s a private matter, we don’t have the facts, and it feels like gossiping to me.

Five months sober after years of “struggling” is not a big achievement. It’s something, but it’s not a lot.

A down side to sobriety is you come face-to-face with your behavior and what you’ve been doing.

kim frederick

First red flag: He married Mary only three weeks after divorcing his first wife. Hmmmmm. Smacks of the old D&D to me, and having the next (better, newer, younger) source of supply waiting in the wings.
Yes, it looks like Mary had her issues…and it’s sad to me that she fell prey to this, and then had to face her own D&D ordeal. No, I wouldn’t want to take on the Kennedy’s.

clair

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/rfk_wife_was_kicking_her_while_she_dhHSuMGyb8nElXoAOJmDkM/0

>Sister-in-law Kerry Kennedy said Mary a lifelong friend had been sober for five months, but was still battling depression.
“She fought with every ounce of her mission to overcome that horrible disease,” Kerry Kennedy told The New York Times.<

So, why didn't "lifelong friend" and SIL Kerry Kennedy help Mary financially? She knew Mary was drowning in debt & depression. Such hypocrisy.

Sounds like Mary was trauma bonded to RFK, Jr:
“Even after they separated, she was pretending everything was fine. She’d still call him her husband. It was bizarre and sad.”

Rich, poor, educated, uneducated, famous or common folk: Love Fraud & Spathy can strike anyone. The only protection anyone can have is to become aware of Spaths & to avoid them.

clair

G1S,

No doubt Mary had her “issues”. IMO, anyone who subjects him/herself to an intimate or financial relationship with an Spath (ie: the “victim”) “has issues”. Imo, the reason why the victim gets involved with the Spath is because the victim’s issues blind the victim to the harmfulness of the Spath and the Red Flags.
Imo, if a potential victim is psychologically aware, then the potential victim will recognize the Red Flags and therefore, not become an actual victim of the Spath.

G1S

Clair,

It was also a big red flag that SHE married him three days after his divorce from his first wife.

I don’t think it’s victimhood to cheat with a married man and then find out he is a lousy person. What does that say about her? Was she stupid? Incredibly naive?

She knew he had a wife and children. She knew that she was breaking up the marriage.

One of the articles said that her personal ambition was to marry a Kennedy. Damn the first wife and the kids from that marriage, she was going after what she wanted.

She knew what he was when she married him. She knew what the cost would be to achieve her ambition. Did she care? No, I bet she could make a convincing argument why the first wife deserved it.

What was her big disappointment? That she didn’t end up the wife of a politician.

Please. She wasn’t a victim; she was a volunteer. She sounds very selfish and narcissitic to me.

Ox Drover

I don’t doubt that this Mary had her “issues” as clair said, many people who are targeted by spaths are unfortunately dysfunctional as well…and being targeted makes their own issues worse.

Doesn’t mean that he is not destructive.

sure, we don’t have all the facts, but we can see in the media many times the dysfunctional and abusive behavior of people in “high places”–Tiger Woods, O J Simpson, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy Sr. and on and on politicians, sports kings/queens, and media kings and queens.

We may not know all the details for sure, but we can see some big RED FLAGS in how they treat others.

I think we can learn by seeing some of these things.

The woman obviously had problems with alcohol and spending, and she was obviously in the relationship before he was divorced from the previous wife. All that being said, though, a person who HAS ISSUES is hampered in healing and sobriety by a love relationship with a man/woman who is abusive. Not that it excuses their own problems for which THEY should be responsible, but at the same time I hate to see this woman dead.

The woman that Ted Kennedy killed in the car wreck was going with a married man, she was doing something she shouldn’t have done, but she didn’t deserve to die because of it, but that was the consequence she got.

The girl that my son killed had “issues” as well, she had quit school and had her own apartment at 17, she was engaging in crime by stealing her grandfather’s identity for credit cards and spending on them…she was running around with a convict and doing illegal things, but she DID NOT DESERVE TO DIE because of it…yet that was the consequence of her own “issues.”

People don’t always look at the potential consequences of the things they do….they don’t think like Ted Kennedy’s GF “Oh, I might die tonight because I am dating a married man and driving in a car with him when he is drunk.”

Jessica didn’t say to herself “if I rat out this convict, he may kill me” but that is what happened. She never dreamed in her wildest dreams that he could or would kill her. But she didn’t know him well, obviously. she didn’t truly realize what she was dealing with.

I think many of us have had “issues” and that was what got us into trouble with the psychopaths in our lives. If we had been truly healthy we wouldn’t have associated with these people after the first time we saw what they were. If we had had healthy boundaries we would have not been turned into victims.

Now that we are on the road to healing, we can see that in order to protect ourselves we must develop healthy boundaries to prevent others from abusing us in the future. We can’t change them, but we can change ourselves. IN fact I think we MUST CHANGE OURSELVES. I don’t want to be the kind of person i was before all this, I want to find meaning in what has happened, by realizing that I allowed myself to be put in a position where I could be abused over and over. But no more.

Now I have some insight and am working on making my life peaceful and good. making myself stronger and wiser. It is a life long process of growth.

clair

G1S,

I really like many of the things you write. However, IMO & with all due respect, I think your take on Mary is harsh. This woman ended her life by hanging herself.

As I posted above, no doubt Mary had issues. Anyone who dances with the devil has to have a bit of the devil w/in herself. She wasn’t an innocent party and yes, she was complicit. However, I don’t think she signed up for or ever envisioned that he would actively take steps to destroy her.

My point is that often, we are complicit with the Spath because WE are BLIND to OUR OWN issues and so we don’t recognize the devil, we don’t recognize the Spath, nor the meaning (& implications) of the Red Flags.

For example: Sounds like Mary was trauma bonded. When we are trauma bonded to an Spath, we are complicit with the Spath, we willingly participate in the dance. But if we become aware of our trauma bonding, we must ask ourselves “why” we trauma bond. IMO, usually our trauma bond originated very early in our lives. And, imo, the trauma bonding blinds us to our complicity with an Spath.

If we have the inner strength to examine our trauma bonding (our “issues”) and take responsibility for our complicity with Spaths, then we can change our lives and we will no longer be blinded to Red Flags. Unfortunately, it sounds like Mary was unable to do this.

G1S

I never said the woman deserved to die. I simply stated that we don’t have the facts, I don’t feel comfortable discussing why a stranger committed suicide, and that I don’t feel comfortable with demonizing a family when the woman obviously had an agenda of her own.

Trauma bonded – jeepers, I think all the Kennedy children could probably claim that.

I know a lot of people hate the Kennedys and trash them every chance they get.

That’s why I feel this conversation is unhealthy and is going nowhere. I am out of it.

ccg

His first wife Emily Black was from my small hometown in Indiana where they were married. I was a teenager when they got married and went to school with her cousin who attended the wedding. It was a huge, big deal in our town. I remember reading articles at the time and thinking the things he said made him sound like a jerk and when they were divorced about a decade later he was a jerk to her. Just saying…this 2nd wife probably did have major issues, but he is a jerk.

clair

I do not hate the Kennedys. I knew John, Jr. and he was a good person. But, I am looking at the facts of the family’s history.

“Trauma bonded ”“ jeepers” Is this Sarcasm?

Ox Drover

G1S I never intended to insinuate that you did say she deserved to die, my point is that none of these women realized that their POOR CHOICES would result in their deaths.

The little girl that Patrick killed was a “hell raiser” and probably a BPD as well…but she didn’t realize that her choices would cost her her life.

I’m not and I don’t think anyone else is “demonizing” the family but pointing out that the family seems to have some real issues with the men being cheats. Many politicians are….and men in high and powerful positions behave this way….many of the people who become “highly” placed in politics and or business are high in P traits and succeed because of this…SNAKES IN SUITS . It just seems to me that many of the men in this family have engaged in this kind of dysfunctional behavior so there is a pattern there, it isn’t just one or two of the family (and I also realize it is a large family)

G1S

This isn’t about the Kennedys.

I am tired of reading that anybody who gets involved with somebody and ends up unhappy that is apparently due entirely to the other person being a spath, jerk, creep, or whatever and the unhappy person walks away with everybody’s sympathy.

Having been on the target end of a massive campaign to publicly destroy my character, I know that there are two sides to every story.

If you listen to the Ps in my life, they are quite the victims because I don’t do what they think I should. They have painted me out to be a monster every chance they could and they are very convincing with their “concern” and crocodile tears over what is happening with me and my son – which they CAUSED.

My mother has called the police to come by to do well checks on my and my son. Does she care? No, she told me she was going to do that to pressure me into doing what she wanted me to do. That’s stalking to me.

Just the other day, I did a search and found that my P sister, when we had the restraining order on her, had me and my son listed in her church bulletin for “prayers of concern.” Talk about putting on the mask. She wasn’t going to admit that she did anything in the wrong even with the court ruling against her. Great way to explain away a restraining order, isn’t it?

I know her and her church activities very well. She wants people to see her in the manner that she is incapable of being or achieving.

There are the people who are martyrs and have no interest in bettering their situations. They have it tough and woe is them. They love having people tell them why people do these things to them. They don’t care about the reasons; they’re getting their fix from the attention.

Munchausen syndrome or Munchausen syndrome by proxy are other classic examples of how people use their sufferings to get attention.

All I am saying is that somebody who ends up in a mess, even to the point of committing suicide, is not necessarily faultless for being there.

They are not always victims. They can play a substantional part for ending up where they did.

So, since we do not know what happened or why, I do not think we should be commenting. It’s a private matter.

Let the poor woman rest in peace.

G1S

Oxy, we posted over each other.

My point was that she was a cheat, too. And she chose to marry a Kennedy, a family of men who cheat on the wives. So she was a victim? I think not. She was a volunteer.

Most people don’t who get up in the morning and decide that they’re going to make a choice that will lead to their deaths. From what you’ve told us about Patrick’s murder victim, she made a lot of high-risk, dangerous, and illegal choices.

Most people think that will never happen to them. They think that they are the exceptions and will manage to get away with it.

Is that denial or narcissism? That the human condition doesn’t apply to me and I will get away with it?

Ox Drover

G1S there may not be two VALID sides to every story….like the “two sides” of the story with your egg donor and your sister. That’s the thing…the psychopaths can make us APPEAR crazy. Believe me my egg donor painted the same kind of crazy picture of me.

No not everyone who gets in trouble is with a psychopath…but many times the psychopath makes the victim appear to be the monster, like your egg donor and your sister did to you, and mine did to me.

They call this the “smear campaign” and it is a regular part of the PSYCHOPATH’S PLAY BOOK to smear the victim all over the place and paint themselves as the “victim” when in fact these pseudo-victims are the real monsters.

it is difficult to tell from news reports just WHO the real victim and who the real Perp/abuser is. Look at the OJ situation…I don’t think it is too hard to figure out that HE is most likely a psychopath….and it isn’t too hard to figure out that TIBER WOODS is a CHEATER…he may or may not be a psychopath as well, but he is a cheater.

The Kennedy men that have been high in politics etc have mostly been men who cheated on their wives…that does NOT make them psychopaths but it is only ONE sign of a dishonest person. Not every man or woman who cheats is a psychopath, but you can bet your bippy that just about every psychopath is a cheater.

Ox Drover

G1S we posted over each other again

I agree “All I am saying is that somebody who ends up in a mess, even to the point of committing suicide, is not necessarily faultless for being there.

They are not always victims. They can play a substantional part for ending up where they did.”

I agree, I am very much a volunteer victim where my son Patrick was concerned and with my egg donor to some extent…but no more. I started getting healthy the day I decided to have NC with my P son, and it threw the entire family dynamics off kilter and that was why mommy dearest D & D’d me and took on the now X DIL as my replacement enabler. Didn’t work out like egg donor thought it would. she thought money would buy loyalty from the DIL but she picked a P and almost got my son c killed in the process.

HE knew hhis wife and my egg donor and the trojan horse were plotting to throw me off my farm (I don’t think he knew about the murder that was planned) but he went along with it all in a passive way, not warning me….so he put himself in the position to get killed and almost did….he never thought that they would try to kill him…but he was associating with people who were abusing others (me and my son D) and when you associate with turds you end up smelling like shiat, and sometimes you get dead for your trouble. Staying away from these people and this kind of life style is much less likely to get you dead either from murder or suicide.

I am sorry that Mary took her own life…one of my former foster sons did that. I am sorry when anyone is in enough pain for whatever reason to take their own lives. She obviously wasn’t emotionally “healthy” or she would not have done that. Some of that she might have been able to control and some she may not have been, but I don’t doubt that he pushed her pretty far taking away the kids etc. I pray for her soul!

Spaths use 3 ploys: charm, pity and rage.
Which one they choose depends on the victim’s weakness or vulnerability. Robert obviously used charm to get Mary to marry him because her weakness was the dream she had of marrying a Kennedy.

My spath used pity most of the time. That’s what he used on me. He is quite ugly and can’t spell, has no taste and doesn’t know how to handle his finances: SKYLAR TO THE RESCUE!! She can turn that ugly duckling to a SWAN!!

Spath also used pity ploy on a pastor who was literally a rescuer. He saved souls on sundays and the rest of the week he flew the rescue helicopter for the state emergency rescue service. Spath conned him into “helping him” get his helicopter’s license by falsifying some records. Really, this falsification could hurt nobody. It only indicated that the pastor had given him flight instruction hours. But spath actually flies better than the pastor does. His lack of anxiety makes him an incredible pilot, completely in control. So what could it hurt to help poor spath get his license? It’s not poor spath’s fault that he can’t spell, he’s dyslexic you know. God made him that way. It was for the greater good to break a small law, so that spath could get his license and stop flying illegally. See how that makes sense? Just this once, it was ok to make the exception because of the circumstances.

But the pastor didn’t know that the license was never on spath’s radar. It was trust he wanted. Because, you see, nobody could ever imagine that, once you’ve done somebody a good turn, they would stab you in the back. That’s the LAST THING YOU’D EXPECT. It’s 180 degrees the opposite of what you’d expect. It’s what you’d NEVER IMAGINE. And so, that is exactly what a spath does.

Once trust is gained, spath had access to any helicopter the pastor flew. Shortly after, the helicopter fell out of the sky. Did the pastor deserve it?

Well, the pastor had a weakness. He liked to save/rescue people. He also lacked the knowledge of what a spath is.

We can call it weakness or vulnerability or narcissism or our Achilles heel. We all have one and the spath will zero in on it. I think that a spath was the one who came up with “EXPECT IT WHEN YOU LEAST EXPECT IT”, because it sums up the way a spath works. When you think about it, it’s not possible. To expect something when you least expect it. The moment you expect it, you no longer least expect it and you are vulnerable elsewhere.

We all have a blind spot, but most of us don’t have malicious intent. I don’t think Mary did. She just wanted to make her dream come true.

Edit:
I’m sure that she didn’t perceive herself as breaking up the first marriage. He probably portrayed the marriage as “failed” and did it convincingly because it was failed, since he was incapable of ever being faithful.

To her, his failed marriage likely seemed like a gift from heaven, a chance for both of them to make a good marriage. She likely felt that it was “meant to be.”

We all know how good these seducers are at presenting their “reality” from just the right perspective so you can’t see the maggots crawling out from behind the facade.

G1S

Oxy, you’re making me laugh again, “when you associate with turds you end up smelling like shiat.”

I know women who deliberately set out to break up marriages. My son’s P father had two wives who did that. Wife #2 broke up his first marriage when his wife was four months pregnant with their third child. Wife #3 couldn’t wait to get rid of Wife #2.

My mother often told me about a woman she knew who bet another woman $10 that she could break up a guy’s marriage. As soon as that happened, she dumped the guy.

There are women who are homewreckers and proud of it. They like the game and they like taking the prize – the husband.

Skylar, why are you so sure you know what this woman did or felt? She admitted that she wanted to marry a Kennedy. Why are you sure that was a dream? I’m not. Sounds like it could have just as well been a P setting a goal.

There are plenty of women who push wives out of the way because they want a rich husband or the prestige of being Mrs. So-and-So.

For me, personally, I think it is very foolish to assume we know what somebody else was thinking or feeling. I’m not putting you down, but honestly, where did you get your information from?

My guess is you’re saying that because that is how you would feel if you were in that situation. I can understand that, and many times, that’s what made me vulnerable. I wanted to see things as I wanted to see thing.

Being objective means dropping my personal prejudices and beliefs. “He probably had her convinced…” How does anybody know what he had her convinced of or even what transpired unless they were there?

Nothing makes us more vulnerable to whatever spins somebody wants to tell us than to assume what is going on is how we would think or act in that situation.

I was thinking about my P sister and her church activities. She knows all the prayers and rituals. She can say and do the right things, but she has no friends in church. Back before NC, she would often tell me that.

She still doesn’t connect with people, but she does all the right actions at church. Isn’t that what the BTR killer did as well?

We have a first cousin who produces a born-again televanglist show. He and I have very different interpretations of the Christian faith, but we know that the other one “gets it” and we respect each other’s faith. I love him dearly and vice versa.

One day he and I were discussing something religious/spiritual in front of my P sister. She wanted to be included, show that she knew as much about religion/spirituality as we did. She asked me to explain something to her, which I did. She didn’t get it, so she asked again this time revealing how clueless she was about what we were discussing. He and I shot each other glances. So I took a deep breath and rephrased the answer. She still didn’t get it. She was furious and close to erupting.

We weren’t making fun of her. She just didn’t get it because she can’t feel it. The spirituality didn’t get through because she’s a P.

MoonDancer

Skylar, I have issue’s will you rescue me? Alot of valid comments and opinions here. It’s true that we must take responsibility for our own action’s, but often the education comes after the red flags are invisible by the fog. I mean who knows they are being gaslighted until after the fact? When we know better we do better.
Then there was the Kennedy son in the news not long ago that kicked a nurse when she tried to prevent him from taking his newborn outside for a walk? They are all royal pain’s in the ass..except maybe for John Jr. but we will never know….oh my.

G1S,
like in the movie “Doubt”, the answer is: Experience.
There is a pattern, we see the pattern, we know what happened, in a rudimentary way.

Yes, I know a woman or two who set about trying to steal a husband and ended up stealing a P. They didn’t commit suicide though.

Robert went on to date several women since and before the divorce was filed. Mary has not dated anyone. It shows the difference in character. Spaths can’t ever NOT have supply. You have to look at ALL the clues at once.

Oh hens YES! I’ll be right there in my helicopter to pick you up and we’ll fly off into the sunset!!!
(( 😆 ))

BTW, Oxy, did you ever see the movie “Doubt”? I’d love to hear your take on it.

darwinsmom

Clair,

You said, that everyone who falls for spaths has issues; or that a victim must have a bit of devil in them in order to dance with the devil.

I disagree with that in the way it seems to be implied. My only issues were that I believed that everyone has good inside and can grow; that I didn’t know that someone can convincingly fake emotions; and that I can bond deeply. I don’t even regard the latter as an issue really, but I must be aware of the fact that can be abused into making me oxytocine addicted.

I don’t regard accepting the chance that someone might actually love me as an issue. I was actually quite fine being by myself at the time I met the spath. I didn’t dislike myself, wasn’t looking for someone to complete e, I wasn’t even looking for a relationship, not even to have a child (which I luckily don’t have with the spath). If I hadn’t gotten involved, I would have started an insemination program to be a single mom with my best friend as donor. I sure wasn’t desperate for a man at the time. Although I was getting a bit tired of only being committed to myself. After 8 years I didn’t mind the idea of having to consider someone else aside from myself and my cat for a change.

Yes, my boundaries are 5-star rated these days. But I had good boundaries before that… I’d consider them 4-star rated before the spath. But these days they’re impeccable.

And I am very sure that many other victims had no more issues than the one I listed above.

As for the having a bit of a devil in them… He always made sure to not have me witness cruelty from him to someone else. The two times I witnessed it, I had my bags packed and was ready to hop on a bus and leave. Did I go? No… those were the few times he ended up ‘admitting’ he was wrong (with crocodile tears) and promising he would never do it again, because I ignored any excuse. Plus I was too damned bonded to him. But no, I do not have a devil inside of me, not even a little one. Yup, he tried to find a weakness or devil in me. But those attempts failed.

He used the pity play on me, after the charm hadn’t worked. I didn’t want to rescue him, but I wanted to give him a chance, I wanted to believe in his sincerity, and give him the needed support to save himself. The oxytocine addiction, trauma bonding and not knowing that somebody without empathy can fake it did the rest.

abbri

Darwinsmom, I agree with you.

I’m sure many of you have read Donna’s book or “Women who Love Psychopaths”. You DO NOT have to have “issues” to fall for a spath! In fact, they target the best of our qualities–extravertedness, empathy, compassion, and cooperation.

Yes, many of us were so-called “vulnerable”. I, for one, had just ended a 3-month relationship with a much younger guy, a relationship both of us knew would go nowhere because of our disparity in age and stages in life (I’d already had my kids, he hadn’t). I was a little sad, that’s all. I definitely didn’t have issues.

Anyway, it was Valentine’s Day and I was a little sad to be without a man so my girlfriend and I went out. Other than being a little sad that night, I was in the best physical shape of my life and, consequently, felt very secure with myself. Had a great job, a nice house, etc. My childhood was fine. Other than an abusive (non-spath) ex-husband, the trauma of which had been long addressed with the help of years of therapy, etc., my life at that time was the best it had ever been.

After he lured and love-bombed me and I was hooked, there were major red flags. But because I brushed them under the rug doesn’t mean I have “issues”. He comes from a family of special educators and medical professionals, he ADORES his mother and she him (that’s another pathetic story, but I didn’t know it at the time), he has a zillion friends, he had the same job for 5+ years, etc. So I discounted my uncertainties because everyone else thought he was wonderful so I though I was wrong.

Then, after he talked me into selling my house and moving in with him, he finally took off his mask. Within a week I found out he had been cheating on me all along, but I had nowhere to go. Then I lost my job and was dependent on him. There are numerous other reasons I stayed for 5 more years, some valid and some not, but, believe me, I thought about suicide often (and never had before I’d met him).

So here I am, 6 years after I met him, no job, strained relationship with my kids and family, 30 pounds heavier, a smoker again (I’d quit for 10 years before I met him), living in a teensy tiny apartment, have lost many friends, etc. But I’m strong and am pulling myself out of it with the help of all of you.

The woman who killed herself over him 5 months ago, one of the women he cheated on me with, wasn’t so strong. Another one of his OW tried and failed a year ago.

G1S, not everyone fits into a box. Sounds to me like Mary Kennedy fell for his pity ploy (my wife doesn’t LOVE ME, we never have sex, whatever) and then was slowly destroyed by him. Yes, we don’t know all the details. But it sure looks like it to those of us who have been through it.

clair

Maybe the word “issues” has too strong a connotation. I like Abbri’s word “vulnerable”. So, I’ll substitute “vulnerabilities” for “issues”. However, I still believe that we are the ones who allow the Spath into our lives & we do so because we have vulnerabilities (or “issues”) that the Spath takes advantage of.

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2012/05/14/donna-andersen-on-the-marjority-united-radio-may-14/

Around 67 minutes into Donna’s recent interview, Donna talks about how when we don’t listen to our intuition, instinct or gut feelings that something is wrong in a relationship, we open ourselves up to an Spath. Most people targeted by Spaths see the warning signs but don’t know how to interpret them. So, what I’m saying is that when we disregard our intuition, that can become an “issue” that makes us vulnerable to an Spath. Later on, we have to ask ourselves “why” we disregarded our intuition.

Around 63 minutes in, Donna says that women who are very cooperative, tender hearted or sentimental are at risk for becoming involved with an Spath. So, being very cooperative, too tender hearted or too sentimental makes us vulnerable to pity ploys and love bombing and becomes an issue once we realize that we are in a relationship with an Spath.

MoonDancer

Maybe the tender hearted, sentimental, cooperative people are target’s for user’s, but that does not mean there is anything wrong with being that way.
In some ways the encounter with these exploitive people teaches us about setting boundaries. For myself it was a much needed but painful lesson.
I stll think I am compassionate, tender hearted, cooperative and sentimental, but DONT EVEN THINK YOU CAN F–K WITH ME..

Clair,
I agree with you, vulnerability is a good word to describe it.
Being vulnerable simply means we still have something to learn about protecting ourselves. Age is sometimes the determining factor, the younger we are, the more vulnerable because we have more to learn.

Experience comes with age, but there might be other reasons why some people take longer to learn than others. A person who came from a narcissistic family of origin will have more defense mechanisms, (such as denial) which ironically, make them more vulnerable and a better spath target.

I was 17 when I got hit by the spath, and I had a spath family, so my vulnerability was huge. Then he kept me isolated with illness, so I didn’t have much chance to figure things out. Then there’s the family who didn’t give a crap and wanted to see me crushed, that certainly didn’t help.

Honestly, if it wasn’t for God’s grace and a total stranger in a sushi bar, I’d be dead by now. No doubt in my mind.

And for sure, he would have put on the grieving widower role. My family would have kept him in their fold forever. He’d have considered it his greatest coup.

I love how Robert says that Mary had problems too much too bear alone. And he says she didn’t deserve so much suffering. Meanwhile, at the courthouse, he raking her over the coals, with restraining orders, taking custody, and public humiliation with a celebrity girlfriend. Can we say hypocrite? When words and action are 180 degrees opposed, that’s a spath.

clair

“I am compassionate, tender hearted, cooperative and sentimental, but DONT EVEN THINK YOU CAN F”“K WITH ME..”

hens, you are so right: we can be both, but it is boundaries that protects us from the predators who try to take advantage (by pushing on our boundaries) of our good qualities.

Skylar, this describes me too:
“A person who came from a narcissistic family of origin will have more defense mechanisms, (such as denial) which ironically, make them more vulnerable and a better spath target.”

Funny, today I was thinking about your sushi bar stranger & how he totally changed (& saved) your life. Definitely was the grace of Gd.

“Being vulnerable simply means we still have something to learn about protecting ourselves.”
Yes, exactly, this is what I mean when I used the word “issues”. It means we have more to learn, it doesn’t mean we are bad or stupid.

darwinsmom

Clair,

The shock for me after reading “women who love psychopaths” was that my “vulnerabilities” were my “strengths” that made me a target and made me fall in love with him. I still think of them as “strengths”, I just know to be careful with them.

BTW I had a dream just now that I now realize I’ve been having on and off for a while now… a vulture dream. I’m looking at my parents’ garden from the terrace, and in swoops a giant, beautifully plumed and colored exotic bird. First I note its extravagant plumes, but as it flies by and lands, I notice its beak and its huge size and wing span… which marks it a predator AND a carrion eater. By the time he lands, I hardly see its plumes anymore: just the beak and predatory aspect of the bird. I try to make my father notice this who’s standing next to me, even as he was still swooping through the air. But my father is preoccupied and plainly ignores me saying first, “Wow, look at that strange bird!” and still unresponsive when I say, “Dad! Look! I think it’s a… It’s a vulture! Dad, look! It’s a vulture!” At that point he turns around and leaves me behind, mumbling to himself. He walks around the terrace to the other side of the house for the entrance door. I know that I shouldn’t turn my back on the vulture, but I don’t want to be left alone with the vulture either, so I try to catch up to my dad. Just as I lose sight of my father, as he turns a corner, I can see in the corner of my eye that the vulture has flown to the terrace and is following me, hunching down and silent as if wanting to remain undetected. Just as he tries to attack me from behind, I turn around and grab him by the beak and prevent him from breaking my neck. I woke up at that moment, feeling relieved of catching the vulture on time, proud I did it myself, and also a bit pieved that my dad who’s supposed to protect me plainly ignored me and left me all alone, vulnerable to a vulture attack.

I realize I’ve been dreaming about vulture attacks before, and that this catching them before they spring on me has been a self-taught defense reflex in those dreams. It’s a trick I’ve learned. Vultures have become the symbol for spaths to me. And I quite like it. Vultures are predators, but lazy predators too… they let the others spend their energy in finding nourishment, and then join the table. Of course this dream vulture, actually does hunt, but in a very sneaky way! They “sneak up on you”.

I feel I have a right to be angry at the dream father figure for not doing what he’s supposed to do. Fathers in dreams are rarely your real father, but symbolize your protective nature (just as mother figures do, but on another level). On the other hand, this dream is showing me that I don’t need an extra protective projected father to stand by me… I can take care of the vultures without the extra protection, all on my own. The vulture radar is on and self saving tactics are second nature now.

kim frederick

Any recurring dream is an important dream. It points to an underlying theme that is in flux. I notice,first of all, that something that is seen as colorful and exotic changes, and becomes something disgusting and forboding. I also notice that the father” ignore you and turns away from you, doesn’t protect you. You say you are proud that you were able to fend off the vulture yourself, but, still felt angry at this father, for not protecting you.
Birds are often symbols of spirit. This bird is, at first, is quite beautiful, then becomes something else…it is something that lives off dead things. It seems to be following you…eventually, it attacks you. What part of you is dead? What part of you is trying to clean up another part of you that is gone, or over or changed? Is there a part of you in conflict with another part of you? Who is this father who lets you down? Are you really happy that you are able to defend yourself, or do you wish you had a father you ould rely on to haelp you?
Just some food for thought, Darsmom. Just brainstorming.

darwinsmom

Kim,

Actually the anger at the father figure is meant for myself. I have no reason to be angry at my actual father, who can actually be overprotective.

I think it’s also the first time of the vulture dream series that I actually ended up fending it off on my own. Before, there would be a crowd, gradually it would be friends and parents warning me. It feels like these dreams were almost like a training, where less people were there to help out each time, until I was trained enough to do it on my own.

Yes, I’m really happy I am able to defend myself. I was angry at first when I feared I’d have to deal with the vulture on my own. Once I did catch him on my own, I instantly realized I could rely on myself, and that actual help wasn’t needed (though it is welcomed).

The vulture symbol for the spath works on many levels… it lets the others do the work, and then joins the feast table on the one hand. On the other hand, it’s a great disguise to make you think the vulture won’t harm you and so make you feel it’s safe to turn your back on him (within the dream connotations). But spaths as vultures don’t follow the rules, and will still attack a living being who’s not paying attention to them.

Truthspeak

I didn’t read all of the discussions on this topic, but I can understand how a person simply gives up.

We read about large family dynamics, all of the time. Some of these families are successful and display genuine altruism through their own actions. Others move through Life with almost a visible black cloud of doom and intrigue looming over them. Bad behaviors are buried. Evildoing is excused. Emotional damage is ignored. Etc., etc., etc…..

In the case of Mary Kennedy, it doesn’t matter who was demonic and who wasn’t. A woman ended her life in despair, and all of the money in the world couldn’t buy her a better life.

Like I said in another discussion, it takes about $35 and 3 minutes to enter into a legal, binding contract of marriage. To dissolve a bad marriage, it can take tens of thousands of dollars and YEARS of being dragged through court hearings, psychiatric evaluations, medical examinations, social services interviews, etc….

Those of us who are survivors of sociopathy often agree that there is simply no justice when dealing with a sociopath. Perhaps, that was part of the despair that drove Mary Kennedy (and, others) to end their own lives: what’s the point of living in such agonizing hell on a day-to-day basis without any hope of remedy?

Truthspeak

To clarify, I don’t believe that there’s such a thing as “no hope.” As long as I’m breathing, I have the opportunity to “do something” to survive my experiences, even if what I’m doing is “wrong.”

Yeah….my “vulnerabilities” may be things that would better serve me if I tempered my empathy and concern for others with some caution. But, I won’t trade who I am for what either of my exspaths are. I intend – really intend – to learn about my personal boundaries.

Darwinsmom, I agree that vulnerabilities are viewed as “weaknesses” by spaths. There’s nothing wrong with human vulnerability – for crying out loud, we are all vulnerable because we are all mortal. We are all subject to the natural processes of life, living, and dying.

In my humble personal opinion, our vulnerabilities are what maintains our abilities to empathize. If we become unbendable, we are rigid. If we are rigid, there is no “give.” Without the ability to bend, sway, and give, we can’t experience true intimacy – not sexual intimacy, but intimacy in the true sense of being able to share who and what we are with other human beings.

Just my opinions, here….. 🙂

Truthspeak

Darwinsmom, vultures and carrion fowl often eat the dying as well as the dead…..strong symbolism, there!

darwinsmom

Truthspeak,

That was a beautiful post…

These were the words written to me a month ago from someone ver important to me, and I want to share them with you all, because we can all use them:

“Don’t fault yourself for trusting. We are all learning to recognize guile and deception, all the while wanting to believe they aren’t so. Another untidy paradox of mad intelligence. Without turning the other cheek, we are likely to turn away from compassion and become cold. Unfortunately, to be loving is to be vulnerable. There is no other way to save ourselves from retreating from the love of the source.”

Truthspeak

Darwinsmom, thank you for such a positive response – I truly feel that my “vulnerabilities” are priceless. It’s how I guard them that determines whether or not they’re a “weakness” to be exploited by a predator. I LOVE THE WORDS that you posted – so reassuring and forgiving, Darwinsmom – thank you for sharing that.

I find it very interesting how Mary Kennedy’s character is being so deeply questioned. How many of us experienced the same events with the former spaths in our lives? How many of us compomised our own ethics and morals for the sakes of the sociopaths in our own lives? And, how many of us were fearful to speak truthfully with another human being about what we were experiencing for FEAR of character assasinations, disbelief, and dismissal?

So, she made errors in judgement. So what? Didn’t we all? Isn’t that precisely why Donna built this site, wrote about her experiences, and is reaching out to the media to spread the word? We make errors in judgement – so what? Aren’t we human and subject to all frailties and foibles associated with the “human condition?”

Just because a human being makes errors in judgement does not give license for another human being (albiet a hollow one) to exploit those errors for their personal benefit or entertainment.

Louise

Truthspeak:

Exactly!!! And I have to say, someone who is extremely selfish and narcissistic typically does not commit suicide. That poor woman was a tortured soul and if part of it was because she made bad choices, so be it. I have made a ton of bad choices.

Thanks for your insight.

Ox Drover

Sky, Yes, I ordered it (I don’t usually order and pay full price for a movie) but I really liked it. The acting was wonderful and her feeling of doubt is normal…but I have no doubt that man was a pedophile.

Anna Salter, DOCTOR salter who is a world known expert in pedophiles and has written books about how to spot them has also now written a couple of NOVELS…I found one in a box of books I bought at the auction. I bought the box of books to turn in for credit at the half price book store and I was going through them checking to see if there were any I wanted to read and I took that one out. Surprised to see she is writing fiction now but hey, she knows’em for sure.

Back_from_the_edge

Right, Louise: extremely selfish and narcissistic people, such as psychopaths and sociopaths, do not commit suicide. They are too selfish for that. So, their rage turns on someone else before it turns on themselves. That makes them moody and dangerous.

Bad choices: wow…how many times has hind sight become foresight in our lives? This is one more of those moments. All we can do is lick and heal our wounds and move forward. Standing stagnate in this spot isn’t going to change anything except for stealing more of our time from us.

We need to stand for ourselves and what we believe in and what we know is right and that which is important to us. We don’t have the time in our lives to waste on inconsiderate people, no matter what is wrong with them. We can feel compassion for their sickness, but do we feel compassion for that sickness, to the point that we allow that sickness to consume us? I think not.

Truthspeak, you are right: “Just because a human being makes errors in judgement does not give license for another human being (albeit a hollow one) to exploit those errors for their personal benefit or entertainment.”

WE know that is right. However, there ARE people in this world who simply do not care about what is ‘right’. Heartless, cold, calculating people. I never used to believe that was true. I always believed in the ‘good’ in everyone and that is so false.
Once you make peace with that truth, the rest kind of shuffles itself into the proper perspective.

We fought a good battle. Didn’t win the spoils we thought we would but we ended up winning the war and we attained ourselves in the process. You watch; you mark my words.

Dupey

clair

Darwinsmom,

I think you have analyzed your dream very well and agree that a vulture is an excellent metaphor for an Spath, especially the way, at first, it looks beautiful, but then, you realize it’s a predator. And, the message is also that yes, you can handle & protect yourself. I also think Kim brings up a great point about your father. IMO, in the dream, your father may be an aspect of you &/or, he may represent your actual father. Plus, the fact that this is a reoccurring dream sounds significant. One thing I really like about your dream is that the imagery is not obscure, but very actual, so seems your psyche is giving a very clear message: vulture = predator; father = protection (or lack of it); you can protect yourself. However, why is this dream reoccurring? What is it that you feel unresolved about?

I use on-line dream dictionaries to help interpret my dreams. Here’s some I found re: vultures:
http://dreammoods.com/cgibin/dreamdictionarysearch.pl?method=exact&header=dreamsymbol&search=vulture
http://www.experienceproject.com/dream-dictionary/Vultures-dreams
http://www.mythsdreamssymbols.com/sfather.html
http://www.unclesirbobby.org.uk/dreamdictionaryvulture.php
http://www.dreammoods.com/dreamdictionary/v.htm

witsend

The measure of pain & despair that one feels isn’t something that spectators can “speculate”.

And this is what suicide always leaves behind in it’s wake….Everyone trying to “figure out” WHY?

The truth is its complicated.

Personally after meeting many suicide survivors (families of suicide victims) I can tell you that this question burns deep into the depths of their souls.

As general “opinions” go…..Most people have “issues” with suicide because they believe that it is death by choice.

But for many that struggle with severe depression that leads to despair…..Suicide is a decision made when a person doesn’t believe they HAVE a choice anymore.

Not that a person WANTS to die…but wants to end their pain. Can’t live with the pain any more.

Suicide can be contradictory.

Suicide is loosing the fight, of battling with depression and despair. There is no longer the glimmer of hope.

It is difficult for us to make sense of it, because we look at it with a logic and reasoning perspective.

Suicide is the exact opposite of “reaching out for help”. Suicide is when a person feels they are beyond help.

Many of us have experienced depression in our own lives. And fought through it. Did what we had to do. If that meant going to the doctor to get on medication, or going to therapy, or whatever choice we made to help us through it.

Logic and reasoning and a glimmer of hope….Still could see light at the end of the tunnel.

I don’t believe that most people who complete suicide (not just suicidal thinking but completing the act) has a whole lot of reasoning and logic going on in their minds before doing so.

Many professionals and general opinions conclude that suicide is ALWAYS a very shelfish act. Key word here is ALWAYS… I question that opinion though….Because although the suicide leaves behind a world of pain for family members…I don’t necessarily think that was the intent behind the person who ended their life. Although I do belive there are exceptions.

IF the person who suicided COULD have looked at how they would make their loved ones feel (logic & reasoning) maybe they would have made a different decision based on that alone.

For many families that are left with a suicide note there often was mention of how “you are better off without me”. That speaks volumes of how the person was feeling.

I have also known families who were left with painful notes…Filled with blame and devastating accusations..For these families making peace with the suicide act of their loved one is really complicated.

I know a woman, who is a dear friend of mine who’s husband killed himself while he WAS on the PHONE with her. She was hundreds of miles away visiting her elderly parents and he was at their home. He went off his meds (he was bipolar) while she was away. He was manic and grandious and said some awful things to her. Not at all like himself when he was well and maintaining his disorder.

I don’t think that suicide is a “one size fits all” kind of thing.

Most of us have made bad choices in our lives. And we struggle through them. Many of us have been delt a bad hand. Something bad hapens in our lives that wasn’t by choice but just happened. We struggle through.

When we are able to struggle through our own trials and tribulations in life it is hard to understand why others can’t do the same? But again logic and reasoning are PRESENT in that thinking…..

None of us will ever really know why someone takes their own life. It usually seems like a permanent solution to a temporary problem. But that is the “thinking” of those of us who are still very much fighting the fight….

Alcohol and drug addiction is a demon that many loose the battle to…And for many suicide victims “liquid courage” is used before ending their lives.

I would bet my last dollar that this wasn’t Marys “first” 5 months sober. That this was a demon she had battled with ongoing in her life….Maybe just one of her many battles. Judging by the problems she was facing by the end of her marriage. Custody fight, loosing her home, financial problems. The Kennedys are powerful people and she had a relationship with the Kennedys long before she married into the family.

Although the Kennedys are used to dealing with their dirty laundry (and there has been plenty of it) in the public eye….I really feel for her children now…. To have to deal with their mothers death, with the press, public opinion, and so many derogitory and judgemental comments…

I can’t even imagine how hard this will be for them.

Louise

abbri:

Great post!!!! I sound a lot like you were. I was not particularly vulnerable…I was just too sweet. And I must make very clear…no other man had turned my head for 20 years…20 years!!!!! I had been in a long term on again off again relationship for that long. And then along comes this guy! Why him??? Other guys had asked me out and I just was NOT interested and it’s not because I was dead sexually or frigid, a man hater or whatever. So why him?? I ask myself that over and over, but I guess when I am true to myself it WAS because he had power and was so much higher above me at work…he was sweet and powerful at the same time…extremely dangerous combination and then you add that sexy British accent to the mix and I was toast. And I really was OK until he kissed me…I knew I was in trouble then. Sigh. And I was NOT a gold digger or any of those things…as a matter of fact, I made it clear to him that I was not going out with him because of his position and I also didn’t even want to hear about his bonus when he tried to tell me…I covered my ears and told him I didn’t want to know, but he said it was OK because HE was telling me…I wasn’t asking him…he wanted me to know. Well, of course he wanted me to know…it made him feel even more powerful and in control.

darwinsmom

witsend,

that is what suicide is to me: to be in excruciating mental and emotional pain day in and day out for an extensive time already and having lost the hope the pain will ever stop… that’s when death becomes the sole option to the person’s mind to escape and stop the pain. I have felt such pain and considered it once in my life. It was also the moment I made a breakthrough. The darkest hour can also bring the brightest light.

Ox Drover

SOME people who associate with psychopaths are also HIGH IN P TRAITS. It is not uncommon for there to be two Ps who hook up. They do not always recognize each other when they are trolling for a new victim.

They end up fighting in the end of course–the loser of the battle then presents themselves as a VICTIM.

So just because someone got bashed by a psychopath doesn’t mean they are NOT ALSO A PSYCHOPATH.

Some people who are abused by a psychopath are abused because they are uber empathetic and compassionate and they fall for a love bomb or a pity ploy….some have issues, loneliness, lack of self esteem, lack of boundaries, etc.

Not all people who commit suicide are NOT psychopaths…sometimes even psychopaths kill themselves. Witty’s husband is an example. He was a drunk AND a psychopath AND he killed himself. Suicide is sometimes the last way they can say FARK YOU! Sad but true.

While there are some things that are sometimes the same in abusers and there are some things that are sometimes the same in victims…sometimes they are not the same.

It’s the strangest thing that my spath would say to me, “Suicide is the worst thing you can do to the people you leave behind. It’s so selfish! blah,blah, blah”

For someone obsessed with driving me to suicide, it is so strange that he admonished me that way. The way he said it, was as if I was already planning on doing it.

I’m not sure wtf he was thinking. Did he think I was more likely to do it if he told me not to? And who goes around reminding their loved ones NOT to commit suicide?

And why didn’t I see this as a big red flag and leave?

witsend

darwinsmom,
“The darkest hour can also bring the brightest light.”

Yes, I believe this also. For some, the darkest hour still strikes a glimmer of something….

All it takes is the glimmer of the light.

But for some the darkness prevails.

And that is hard for me to judge….

Because although I “think” I have been in the darkness, I also saw the glimmer of light.

So to me that IS the biggest difference of all between contemplating suicide and completing suicide. If the light shines through.

Ox Drover

Witty, on the post you made above. VERY WELL DONE!!!!

This quote “Although the Kennedys are used to dealing with their dirty laundry (and there has been plenty of it) in the public eye”.I really feel for her children now”. To have to deal with their mothers death, with the press, public opinion, and so many derogitory and judgemental comments”

I can’t even imagine how hard this will be for them. ”

Is very telling and good. Those children will always bear a scar and a question of “why”? I feel for them and for the rest of her family.

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