Match.com agrees to screen for sex offenders

Carole Markin of California met Alan Paul Wurtzel of Pacific Palisades on Match.com. On their second date, he sexually assaulted her. Turns out that he had at lease six previous sex offense convictions.

Markin sued Match.com, and now they’ve agreed to screen for sex offenders. Will it do any good?

Match.com agrees to screen for sex offenders to settle lawsuit on LATimes.com

Why Match.com can’t screen out sex offenders on MSNBC.com.

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144 Comments on "Match.com agrees to screen for sex offenders"

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If only they could do away with Match.com altogether..

Nonetheless, this action seems like it should have been made a long time ago.

The second article sums it up very well, they can “screen” or SAY they do, but it is impossible to do without Dates of birth, SS# and fingerprints…or DNA…and all of the above.

This only gives the people who use these sites a FALSE sense of security. Internet dating is fishing in a toilet..

HEY SOMEONE I KNOW JUST MADE THE NEWS! Thought I’d share it with you guys.


This guy was a MINISTER at the little 50 member church I attended, along with my egg donor. He was a very ANGRY type man and I never liked him, but he is the one I tried to get to help me convince the egg donor that the Trojan Horse Psychopath who was a CONVICTED PEDOPHILE (X 3 kids 9, 11, and 14) was dangerous. Of course Mr. Chance would not help me at all….and I was driven from the church there by him and the Trojan Horse, my egg donor, a large contributor, etc. and ignored by the rest of the congregation….well sometimes there is VINDICATION. This makes the third man I have personally known what I thought was “well” and while I never liked any of them, it never dawned on me that they were pedophiles.

One of the men blew his own brains out, and the other one is in prison for life without parole…I hope this guy gets at least a few years behind bars. His wife was left HIGH AND DRY AND HOMELESS AND DESTITUTE as he lost his jobs, and the home they shared was in his mother’s name….someone asked me today if she could have “known” what was going on hor more correctly how could she NOT KNOW? Well, she is just in the same boat with the rest of us, she was hoodwinked by a psychopath.

Ox Drover,

Maybe, you could get in touch with his wife (hopefully, she divorces him) and tell her about Love Fraud. I feel badly for anyone who is/has been married to such a person.

Bluejay, she has no access to a computer and she just got out of the hospital today with open heart surgery….so I doubt at THIS point in time she would be able to access LF. I imagine she is still reeling from one side of the brain to another. Talk about stress. A minister and his wife have taken her in (not sure why she is not staying with her adult kids from a previous marriage) I will probably contact her in a few weeks when she is better able to think, as I am sure right now she is just trying to recover from the surgery. She has sure enough had a “hard row to hoe.” I also suspect that he was verbally abusive as well. He struck me as an “angry” person which is one reason I was not particularly “fond” of him. He would not listen to me at all, and was very invalidating about my concerns for my egg donor and for the dangerousness of my Trojan Horse Psychopath, now I kind of feel like he must have felt some “Kinship” with someone who had gone to prison for pedophilia. Don’t expect that HE EVER THOUGHT HE WOULD BE ARRESTED THOUGH, I think the look on his face in the mug shot SAYS IT ALL.

Ox Drover,

Well, it’s a good thing that you’re in her “neck of the woods,” being able to support her during this difficult time (that is, if you’re comfortable doing so). I can only imagine what she is going through. We’re all part of a club that you don’t want to belong to. Also, I looked at the picture of the minister – her husband looks like an older version of one of the ex-spath’s former business partners (who continue to run a successful business, free of the spath).

Dear Bluejay, I only found out about this today and so I haven’t even had a chance to contact her….I’m not sure where she is staying, my source said that she was going to be released from the hospital today and would be staying with a local minister and his wife as she is now HOMELESS….as well as sick.

I SO wanted to send a snotty e mail to my egg donor and say SEE I TOLD YOU THIS GUY WAS A CREEP! Oh, I SO wanted to, but I didn’t. It was very TEMPTING though. I never did like the guy but I NEVER would have figured pedophile, but now that I know, it is like DUH!!!!! Why couldn’t I have seen this guy was probably a psychopath? At least a first class jerk?

Oh, found out today too that my neighbor “grandpa” who has the “crack ho” living with him and sponging off of him was in a fight with her and she is in jail, but he is trying to figure out some way to get her out of jail. I’m done with him. I realize he is slightly a bubble off of plumb mentally, but I can’t do any more. His front door was crashed in and he told me a story about how it got broken…and how she got arrested and it all adds up to, “it’s unfortunate, but I can’t do anything for him because he won’t let me.”

Ox Drover,

You may not want to get involved with the minister’s wife, allowing other people to help her at this time. Who knows if she’ll ever figure out that her husband cannot be fixed, that she should drop him like “a hot potato,” getting on with her life, minus the creep. It still amazes me how rotten people can be toward each other – the minister was NOT a good husband, in the end leaving his wife homeless and destitute – that’s a P. for sure. Bravo for keeping your thoughts about your mother’s minister to yourself. There are some family members (in spath’s family tree) that I’d like karma to reach on my behalf.

Yes, I think that you’re smart to be “done” with your neighbor, the old man. He’s living in drama (crappy drama) that he keeps choosing to immerse himself in. A smart man would kick the druggie to the curb and not look back.

Dear Bluejay,

The old man is getting senile and that is the ONLY reason that I had continued to try to help him (give him food and water when he had neither and coordinate with his daughter) but it has gone past what I can do anything about now.

The Crack ho is in jail as we speak, and My connections at the jail tell me that she is on a failure to appear warrant so the judge may not let her bond out….at least he is safe for a few days, but in the meantime, I can’t be responsible for him any more. It is not illegal to be “stoopid” if you are with it enough to know that Obama is president and it is 2011, so I can’t help him and I won’t even go down there if she might be there so I can wash my hands of it “guilt free.”

As for the minister’s wife, she is being cared for immediately, and has friends so she is not ALONE and she is going to need some time to adjust and process what has happened. I am sure he will go to prison at least for a while. I hope it is STATE PRISON, and since it was a county sting I imagine it will be a state prison, which is 10 X worse than a Federal prison….he will wind up hoeing cotton on a plantation in South Arkansas!!!! Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy!

Oxy, that is the best news I’ve heard all day.
You keep getting vindicated over and over. TOWANDA FOR YOU!

I wish there was someone to rub it in your egg donor’s face…but I guess she’ll find out next time she goes to church and he’s not there!! Is there any way you can FOLLOW HER to church, or be there before she shows up? You can hide behind a pillar or a curtain with your zoom lense on your camera and get a picture when she finds out!!

Then you can come out with a big grin on your face and say, “my condolences on your narcissistic injury.”

OK, OK, I’m just fantasizing for you. I think blue jay is right about staying away from the minister’s wife. You may find out there is more to her than the “duped wife”.


Read the article.


Dear Sky,

I think she is most likely an “innocent victim” who just married an angry, controlling pervert….like a bunch of us have done! LOL But, she is being taken care of now by others who are closer to her than I ever was….and I imagine she is SPINNING right now in grief, shock and embarrassment (don’t we all know that feeling!) I remember when P son was arrested for murder, I couldn’t believe it, yet it was terrible and I cried night and day for 3 months, locked myself in the house, etc. etc. so I can imagine that this woman was also probably blindsided. But you know, a bunch of us have been blindsided.

It is amazing though….according to my source the cops said that it had probably “been going on 8-10 years”–and I wouldn’t be surprised at all. Dr. Anna Salter, the woman who is an expert on pedophiles (She wrote a book on PREDATORS) said that for every molestation that is proven and prosecuted, there are 300 that they got away with. She says the AVERAGE number of incidents the guy has (or woman) before they are caught is 300, so that is a LOT. Charles “Jackie” Walls III (you can google him and get more details, he is doing life without parole in Arkansas) was thought to have molested over 1,500 separate kids over a 20 year period….to say nothing of the 4 deaths he was responsible for.

Egg donor I am SURE knew it as soon as it hit the news and the paper a day or so after he was arrested. It has been about July 22nd or so (so a bit over a month) since the news came out, and I have NO doubt that she knew within a day or so….but she did not tell me and I haven’t been out anywhere to hear any “gossip” from the community lately…been too busy with other things and so it wouldn’t have been any “news” to egg donor, but I COULD have rubbed her nose in it, but I restrained myself.

You guys know just how much I HATE pedophiles and I didn’t like this guy to start with, so I admit I am a bit NOT sorry to see this guy take a hit for something so disgusting. Yea, I know I should not gloat over the downfall of my enemy…but I’m not a saint by any stretch and sometimes I am just a witch! This is one of those times.

oh my

Markin, 54, said she has been a Match.com member for seven years…

It’s not only the sex offenders. Match.com just can’t be supplying suitable partners at all. They’ve been sending her men for SEVEN YEARS and she’s not married yet???

Your egg donor must have been Horrified by that news…And she must have known you could have lauded it over her but did not…hmmmm.

Where I am, a big time developer has been accused of raping a 14 year old girl over a period of years, with his girlfriend…It’s just disgusting!! He has big lawyers to try to keep it all out of the news…guess it aint’ working out so good for him..let me go puke now.

I asked this question before, but never got an answer. Are all pedophiles sociopaths? If not, what personality disorder would be the most likely to entertain those ideas? I don’t think they all are, but something is off with them.

Oxy: No worries, seeing the enemy fall is great! Join me, as we roll around in their misery! *rolls around in the misery* Wait… that’s not the misery pile. Uh oh… *sniffs* Now I need to take a bath, thanks a lot!!

*washes* It won’t come off!!! 😛

Dear Near, I actually think that MANY IF NOT ALL pedophiles are psychopaths, and this one is probably high in P-traits, though he is not otherwise a criminal that I know of. He is an ANGRY man, and in fact, he screamed and pounded the pulpit of the small country church where I attended with extended family and friends to the point that my head would hurt from listening to him scream.

I had a talk with him one Sunday after church and told him basically, “You will get more flies with honey than vinegar” and encouraged him to preach more POSITIVE sermons rather than pound on the pulpit and scream at the people….the attendance was going down down down at the time too so I guess others were tired of this as well…and I did talk to him with all kindness I could muster, and of course he SHOUTED back at me in an angry tone of voice. LOL

Obviously I had NO idea that he would be a pedophile, but I did know that I thought he was a “jack ass” and a very “angry” and “rage filled” man. But you know there are plenty of people in my life I did not “like” that probably were NOT pedophiles or even psychopaths. LOL But I will say one thing, that my “instinct” about who is “okay” and who “I don’t like” has been validated over and over and OVER again, and I am beginning to think that my INSTINCTS ARE PRETTY DARN GOOD.

I’m to the point now where I assume that anyone who is angry and rage filled is a spath AND a pedophile, until proven otherwise. 🙂

if it walks like a spath and talks like a spath, I assume it is a spath.

Well, sky for sure anyone who is angry and filled with rage may be a psychopath, but you know….I remember the time I WAS FILLED WITH RAGE, AND ANGER, and that is part of the cycle of grief for those of us who have been or are being abused….so not everyone who is “angry all the time” is a psychopath.

The thing is that we need to look at the ENTIRE PATTERN of how a person behaves to others, whether they are kind or “mean” whether they listen and are compassionate or not….and look at it over a period of time. It is NOT EASY to spot a person and be “sure” they are a psychopath, however, I think we need to use our instincts and people who are “always angry” or hostile, we need to look at them carefully and decide just how much or how close we want to interact with these people.

MY instinct about this man (frankly I didn’t “like” him) there was something about his arrogance+ his seemingly being angry all the time, from his sermons to his treatment of me, and how he responded when I asked him to consider preaching on a positive note and not shouting and angry from the pulpit ALL THE TIME. He was driving people away not making them feel welcome. So my instinct was good, but I did not have enough evidence to “label” him just to quit being around him. Now of course with his arrest for child porno possession and internet stalking what he thought was a young girl, I have MORE EVIDENCE that he is likely a psychopath or at least very high in the traits. I am also going to GUESS that he was probably verbally abusive to his wife and/or his daughters.


and that mask of twinned ‘power/ respectability’ is a hard one to break through when we look at people, because we project so much on to certain roles that people have in life. As always, it’s our own ignorance (lack of knowledge) and blindness (denial) that makes us prey.

glad this guy is going down!

Ox Drover: We had a man like what you describe in our neighborhood a long time ago. A very angry man, we’ve also had a pedophile here before as well. He was the mailman. So I believe our instincts are a good foundation for our thoughts, especially yours! Your instinct must be razor sharp after everything! *plays cops theme* Watchya gonna do when Ox Drover comes for you!! ^_^

Oh, and thanks for the answer to my question!

Dear Near,

Thank you (chuckle) I am getting where I LISTEN more to my instincts, but even your good instincts can’t always tell you WHAT KIND of predator is in the area.

I called the DA’s office in the town where he will be tried. He has a hearing on August 31st unless it is canceled or changed. I intend to be there and I will call the clerk’s office and make sure it is still “on” for that day. It is a 2 hour drive and the court starts at 10 a.m. so I will have to leave here about 6:30 or 7 to make sure I get there in time. It will probably be a SHORT hearing. He had pleaded not guilty and paid his bond ($50,000) so he is out and this is just a “reappearance” when I asked the clerk what that meant she didn’t know.

Oh, and I spoke with the circuit clerk’s office and she is going to send me COMPLETE COPY OF HIS PUBLIC INFORMATION FILE IN HER OFFICE…even bill me for it after sending it first. Both the Sheriff’s office and the curcuit clerk’s office were BOTH VERY NICE AND VERY HELPFUL in this small town.

The pedophile who was in my living history group (he has since killed himself after being arrested again and questioned by the police) I got his public records and mailed them to every new employer he had secured….it is not illegal to distribute publicly available information. You can post it on every bulletin board in every place that will let you, or mail it to anyone you have 44 cents to send it to. As most of you know, I have a particular hatred for people who molest children. So if they do the crime (and I will wait until he is convicted before I start my sending the stuff out, though it is still PUBLIC INFORMATION of the ARREST and the CHARGES) they had best expect that I will pass on public information.

Ox Drover: I agree that the informatuon of their crime should be shared to help othesr, but I do have a few issues. I remember you said you were againast the death penalty because you might send an innocent man to his death, but what about here?

What if there is a guy that gets convicted of molesting a child, but is innocent? You’d end up smearing an innocent man and ruining him and his reputation, and maybe leading to his suicide. So I agree with what you do if they have a good case with some proof or some good circumstantional evidence, and it’d have to be compelling.

I hope my post didn’t sound like an attack on you or a defense for the pedophiles, but it is something to consider and think about. ^_^

Dear Near,

No, I do not take it as an attack at all. This man (the minister) was caught in an internet sting with child pornography and so is not likely to be “innocent.”

If we assume that ANY person who is arrested COULD be innocent, no matter what the evidence against them is…then we would never put anyone in prison for any thing. I realize that any innocent person sent to prison (and BTW I very much support the Innocence projects that have released dozens of people off death row and after many years of incarceration) can’t be given back those “years” spent in prison, but at least they can have some what of a LIFE, rather than having people go stand over their GRAVES and say “I’m sorry.”

The information about this man (and I heard today that he had pleaded guilty) is pretty rock solid….he had the kiddie pornographic material in his possession and he met the “girl” at the motel with condoms he had bought that morning.

My state, Arkansas, just released 3 young men called the “West Memphis three” (one off death row) that were railroaded after a forced confession of one of them, a retarded boy, was the only evidence against them and there IS DNA evidence against someone else and NONE against them. They did get out, but still got railroaded and had to “plead guilty” while still maintaining their innocence in a political save-face for the judge involved in the witch hunt that put these three boys in prison 18 years ago. You can look up information on this crime and trial if you’d like. I am glad they are out but I am ASHAMED of my state for the way they were treated and I hope they can clear their names eventually. The political deal was simply to keep the prosecutor and the judge and the state from having to pay money to these young men who lost 18 years of their lives. IT STINKS! I have very little confidence in our IN-justice system yet, it is the best we have. Way too many people who are guilty are let go, and even ONE innocent one executed or kept in prison is too many.

Sorry for the rant, but I’ve seen way too many repeaters let out of prison to rape and kill again. Dr. Liane Leedom was almost gotten by a guy who was a rapist who got out, then started raping and KILLING again. (see the article here on LF). In my opinion, sexual offenders are not going to change any more than psychopaths are.

Ox Drover: I understand, it sounds like you really do try to get the proof and facts straight. Sting operations are about as straightforward as they come. Although, I’m still disturbed by the fact that innocence until proven guilty is fading away in our society. Any allegation and charge against you could ruin your life. I keep thinking of the Spaths that tried to smear my mom with neglect and abuse investigations.

I still despise crime, though. It just seems like such ex-post facto justice is crazy. Like it cases where the proof comes out after the person has been executed. Then all the people involved say “see, it all worked out. He was guilty anyway, we just couldn’t find proof then.” It just shouldn’t be the way we operate. Same with people who rot in prison and they proof of their innocence is found.

Our system seems to be screwed up on both sides, though. Like somebody who is obviously disordered gets away with a crime, and then a normal person gets punished. So many flaws in it. It’s the best in the world, but it’s still terrible. Like you said, I don’t have faith in it either.

I think I’d rather have an innocent man in prison than a monster on the loose, but I still had these thoughts. Pretty much just throwing ideas and musings out there. I’m sorry for rambling as well! ^_^

Dear Near, it is the “rambling” in which we are looking at and thinking about our philosophy and how we are going to live our lives, it is a GOOD thing I think. We must examine our thoughts and thought processes. Long ago I made up my mind about the death penalty being a “good thing” but if I had never again thought about it, or discussed it, I would never have changed my opinion.

There was a time I thought my P son was salvageable but if I had never thought about it any more, I could never have seen the truth that he is not redeemable. Just because we “decide” X does not mean that we should never examine it again. We must I think constantly examine what we hold as “best” or as “truth” to see if it is indeed right and good.

Some things are objective (Measurable) and other things are Subjective….i.e. an opinion about something, but we have to make a decision based on the best evidence we have AT THE TIME, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t change our decision based on new, better, or more information or evidence.

Objective, “it is 97.8 degrees F outside”
Subjective “It is HOT outside”

Here is the link to a LF article I wrote about being “judgmental” you might enjoy.


Ox Drover: I agree, it is a good thing to stay in touch with our thoughts and keep our mind open. I’m for the death penalty now, but not as much as I used to be. Age is changing me! ^_^

When did you see your son as somebody who was too far gone? Reminds me of the tvtrope “Complete Monster” Tvtropes is a site that takes fictional characters and studies them and assigns them certain groups. Complete Monster is reserved for a character that is past the moral event horizon. They cannot be saved, at all. Sociopaths, pretty much. Your son is likely in this group.

Oh! Thanks for your article! I forgot you were a writer! Oh, and somebody new has started writing to, about healing. Mel Pledger! She has already written so much! I’ve missed some of this stuff. I have to catch up on my reading, it seems. ^_^

Oxy-been thinking so much about all ya’lls advice to me about making myself happy from within myself and I have an issue. I have been sitting in all the emptiness like onestep said and examining my whole life since the drama is fading. I have been going through my childhood and it’s really painful to say this, but I don’t know how to recognize happy if it bit me in the ass-BECAUSE I have never been happy in my whole life. I don’t know what happy feels like. As a child I felt nervous, scared, stressed, anxious, and grossly flawed-like I never fit in, and now that I made this realization I feel a very deep sadness and I am about to go into the hospital for work.


You may have actually BEEN unhappy your entire life…that would not surprise me at all. I think your looking for someone else to “make” you happy is an example of this kind of background.

Finding “happiness” is finding little pleasures and enjoying them until one day you just seem to “realize” that you are “happy” and it sneaked up on you while you were not even looking. If that makes any sense.

First off in finding that happiness I think is to QUIT looking for someone or something to make you happy.

Sure, you don’t like nursing as a career, but I can guarrrrrr-en-tee as Justin Wilson used to say that being a cop will NOT “make you happy” any more than nursing will make you miserable. We can have a job we like or a job we hate and still be HAPPY. We can be in deep grief over the loss of a loved one and still be HAPPY. Happy is up to us. As long as we think we can “find” happy out there by changing jobs or changing friends or changing lovers, we will never “find” it.

Quit telling yourself you will be “happy when X happens” that is SELF DEFEATING talking to yourself. BE HAPPY NOW….with this second, this minute, this hour, this day.

Tell yourself that you are going to go to work and make the best of the shift, be the best nurse that you can be, and be the best co-worker that you can be, the best employee that you can be and that you will have a good night! Then DO THAT. The more you tell yourself how miserable you are, the worse you will feel.

I know I’ve been ” hard on” you, Lizzy, but The way I see it, you are making yourself unhappy and living in a “fantasy” of magical thinking and despair. I would like to see you get out of that frame of mind and BE HAPPY. Learn what it means to be satisfied with yourself, of yourself, by yourself. Not “I’m gonna be happy when I’m a cop, but I can’t be a cop yet, so I’ll be a miserable nurse and be unhappy, and I’ll quit smoking when I don’t have so much stress, and I’lll lose weight when I …..and so on” START TODAY, this hour, in taking charge of YOUR LIFE and not “being happy when…” be happy NOW! Just this minute, one minute at a time! (((hugs)))

I may not sound like Lizzy, but I can relate alot to her.

Yes, I find pleasures in day to day things I do, but every morning when I wake up, the first thing I think of is the fact that I live in sociopathworld. It’s sickening.

Then I remember my family and it gets worse. Then I remember the spath and the debt he left me in and I wish I could fall asleep again and have nightmares about planes crashing because that’s not as bad as reality. Then I remember the neighbors and the cops who persecuted me without even knowing me. And the fact that they couldn’t wait to see me commit suicide and I had done nothing to them.

It’s just depressing.

Dear Sky,

Yea, I know things can be overwhelmingly depressing at times. I get so angry when I think of the perverts like that minister who persecuted me while THEY were doing unspeakable things themselves….but I cannot let that be my focus on thinking, I have got to look at the things that are good and uplifting.

It may just be something little…today my diesel truck got “sick” and it was a frustrating day because I had intended to haul a wagon I intend to sell up near the wagon races that started today, and it is a once a year thing, good time to sell my wagon, and frustrating! Got other things that are time critical as well…darned! But Fat Ass and Hairy Ass came up to the fence tonight as we were walking back to the house from the hangar/shop, tired and hot…but they were mooching bread, and I took them some out of the freezer and they looked so pretty, their black coats shining, and their lips soft on my fingers, begging for their bread…just a little thing, a little pleasure, but life is made up of those little pleasures, happiness is made up of those little moments of gladness.

It is what we focus on that makes what we feel. Yesterday I went to town while son D stayed home and worked on getting the wagon ready, and as I drove down the little gravel road toward the black top high way, after the rain there were actually wild flowers on the sides of the road, yellow and blue that hadn’t been there the day before. I’ve started to NOTICE things again that when I was so miserable I didn’t even notice, now I look at them and I smile. Sure, the price of groceries is up, jobs are hard to find, and there’s a lot of creeps that are in public office, and in positions of power, but TODAY we don’t have to worry about people shooting grenades at us, or bombing our towns, or rolling in with tanks and flying over with missiles, so there are a lot of things to be grateful for after all. Find the little pleasures in the day to day life, the taste of food, the coolness of a drink of clean water, doing a good job doing something, the crispness of clean sheets, the softness of a pillow, the warmth of a child’s smile, and knit those pleasures into happiness. (((hugs))))

thanks (((Oxy))). I do make the effort, but it’s hard.

Dear Sky, yep, some days it is difficult, and other days it is REALLY difficult, but taking advantage of those little bits of pleasure add up to ultimate happiness from within ourselves.

What is “happiness” anyway? Is it not that feeling of pleasure, self satisfaction, and peace? An enjoyment of what is and what is around us and within us?

Our brains are programmed to give us chemical rewards and punishments for various things we do. The bonding that we get from holding and nursing our infants is a chemical result (oxytocin) the feelings we get from sex and touch (oxytocin again!) In fact, infants will wither and die if they are not touched and held. Baby monkeys will cling to a soft towel covered wire mama, even though they get their food from one that is hard and made of wire only. Imprinting of baby animals at birth (I did this with baby donkeys and with baby calves) by rubbing your smell into their noses and mouths at birth makes them “remember” that as pleasure and remember humans as “good” and the mother animal does the same thing in bonding to her infant. Some of this is learned and some is genetically programmed into the animal. I had a cow that was raised on a bottle because her mom died at her birth and she never adjusted to being a cow. She was raised away from other cattle and on a bottle by me, and she slept on my front porch each night, when I finally put her into the pasture with the other cows, she was unhappy because she didn’t like being with all those COWS, she was a “human.” She actually ran away from her first calf and I had to put her into a chute and put her baby under her nose and rub the two together. Finally she accepted it and learned to be a good mother but she never really adjusted to being a cow. I ended up killing her because she was dangerous actually because she had no respect for my being alpha, and was actually gonna hurt me as a result. Wasn’t really her fault, but I couldn’t keep an animal that was that big AND dangerously unafraid of me. She ended her life in my freezer as a result of her inability to adapt to being a cow without a “flight zone” (she would run OVER you, not away from you when you tried to herd her from point A to point B.) Fortunately, most bottle raised calves (female or neutered males) are NOT this way, though bull calves will ALWAYS become dangerous if raised on a bottle, so will male llamas, and male deer.

The small joys of every day life, are what we must focus on in order to find “happiness” and not concentrate on the things we do not have or that we wish we had. If we only focus on the negative, we will not have time to see the positive. Make a list of the things (however small) that you enjoyed about today, do that every day and read it over, ponder on it, and you’ll see I think, your attitude change to one of peace and enjoyment. (((hugs)))

Ox Drover: You sound like a cow spath. You use her and then murder her! All because she dared to defy your alpha male status, sound familiar?! Then you came on here to brag about it! You’re a monster! You could have just sold her or made a really nice lamp, but noooooo!

Nah, I’m just kidding. It was a little creepy reading it, though, as a huge animal lover. My eye twitched a little. It’s probably how spaths see us, as a bunch of animals in the field waiting for them to slaughter and use us. Now excuse me while I go eat a burger with no shame.

It’s so good! ^_^

I’m with you Near,
let’s make Oxy the scapegoat for butchering the cows, while we enjoy our filet mignon!


Life as a hypocrite ain’t easy but we make the best of it. LOL!


i just watched the movie, the beaver with mel gibson and directed by jodie foster. it’s a study of a man in deep depression who comes from a background of familial hate. It’s somber and gibson (whatever one thinks of him) is brilliant. i mean, really brilliant. it is extremely well written.

it’s been a bitch of a week. oy! today was a bit better. i am still very fatigued but my emo tolerance went up a bit after my neurofeedback treatment last night. still feel like i have been in a car accident, and it takes at least 3 hours to get functional, but i am improving. go for a sauna tomorrow, so that will help with my joints and tendons. it’s going to be a long road back from this one. 4 more days of antibiotics, and counting.

sky – we all need a reason to get up in the morning. for me, it is shear will that makes me move. and the possiblity that something pleasant might happen – a word or two with someone that is fun and not painful that makes me feel okay at night. i wake in pain 90% of the time. my body doesn’t work, it hurts and won’t move. I stumble for the first hour when i get up. i can’t see properly, and my hands and brain don’t work at all.

but i am stubborn, and i keep doing it, and hope that someday i will get back to the desire. so much work to get there, so much change i must go through to get there.

we have to make radical changes in our lives, one step at a time. I want to heal a lot in the next year. find my feet again and pay down my debt (i am doing really well with it because the current job pays well). then i can move toward what i want. right now it is all about getting stable.

i think you may need to kick your family. how else will it all change? xoxox


Lizzy – hang in there and keep working with what comes up. You really sound like you are getting somewhere. just keep staying with yourself in the day, and not running. keep going – you will get strong with standing in the void, and in that space and hanging in you will find yourself and your happiness.

I haven’t seen them since…May3. But I think about the bastards.

I remember that I hated them when I was a teen. Both of them. I hated them so much, but as I grew, I got over it. They seemed supportive. I thought, “there must’ve been something wrong with me, to hate my parents so much. My hormones mustve been out of wack.” I dismissed my own reality. I also remember that at age 5, I had to stay home from 1st grade for the first time, because I was sick. I sat at the breakfast table and my mom went to the bathroom.
I heard the toilet flush. Instantly, I was seized with terror. I was convinced that my mom had been flushed down the toilet and that a devil had popped out of the toilet and assumed her form. When she came back out, I was petrified of her. Of course, I didn’t show it. I hid this fear for months.

As I grew older and remembered the episode, I thought I must’ve been a really wacky little kid. But that wasn’t it. That little kid knew her mom didn’t like her. And the only way to explain it was to believe it wasn’t actually her mom, it was an imposter.

I read a story in a book, I believe it was “The Myth of Irrationality” by John McCrone. the vignette was about a man who had brain damage. His mom came to see him and he did not believe it was his mom. He thought it was an imposter. As it turned out, the man had damaged an area of his brain related to emotion. Since he felt no emotion for the woman visting him, he could not believe that it was his mom. He was convinced it was an exact replica of his mom. Even after it was explained to him, that his brain had been damaged and how, he could not “believe” it because he didnt’ “feel” it. Talk about COG/DIS!

People say that our beliefs are born of what we think. But I think that our beliefs are born of what we feel. And those feelings can be affected by thoughts or drugs or lies or insights into the truth.

Yea, for years I was a PROFESSIONAL HYPOCRITE, told others to quit smoking (I smoked) told others to eat right and lose weight (I got fat) but now I am taking my own advice, and stopped smoking, eating right, lost some weight (but got to lose more) sleeping better, doing all the things I should health wise and mostly emotionally wise.

Yea, I’m the alpha on the farm, for sure. You can’t have 1,000-2,000 pound animals that try to hurt you deliberately and she crossed the line the last time I was driving the herd up to pick out a bull calf to butcher, and she would have run me down if my son hadn’t seen what was happening and hit her in the eye ball (luckily) with his cap and turned her away from me. I was already braced for the impact, so that day we butchered two instead of just one.

Actually with my cattle, they live in peace, relative happiness, low stress family groups and have all their needs met and when it IS time for them to “go” they never hear the gun go off. Had a new calf born a couple of weeks ago, he looks like an ewok from star wars, red and fuzzy, his name is “Chuck Roast” Chuck for short. Or Mr. Roast if you want to be formal. The next male will be Sir Loin or something along that.

Actually I care more about my cows and calves than the paths care for us I think, because I do treat them kindly, I do provide for their every need for health and happiness.

The book I’m now finished reading about turning empathy off and on though, did make me realize that at least ONE time in my life, I turned my empathy off (I realized it at the time too) because a psychopathic woman that I had taken in here at the farm (not knowing she was a P) I had told her she must leave and she went into this spin of trying to blame me, project on to me, throw a pity party, and was whirrling from one antic to another to get me hooked back into her…I actually stood there and watched her without the slightest bit of pity or empathy for her. I felt cold. Afterward I wondered if that was how the Ps feel when we cry and bed them to not discard us. I remember the look my egg donor had on her face when I got on my knees to her begging her not to treat me this way, begging her to believe me, and she was so “superior” and looked at me with such “disgust?” Im not sure what the look was if it wasn’t disgust, but it was like I had bad body odor or something the way she looked at me. Nothing I said made any difference to her or moved her.

The same way the psychopathic woman’s different spins didn’t reach my heart either. I no longer cared about her, had no empathy for her, I had realized what she was and I would not let her manipulate me any more. But I also realized that must be the way they feel when they have the upper hand.

I now realize I can have APPROPRIATE EMPATHY and I can decide how much, for whom and when.

One/Joy, The aches and pains as we get older and our joints wear out are part of the aging process that I don’t like. I’v found by taking COATED asiprin in the morning it helps with the joints creaking, and I take 2 more at supper as well and 1 at noon with my niacin (for chol) so it won’t give me hot flashes, and that week I stayed off all meds to see which ones were working and which werent I could definitely tell the ASA was working well, my pains were MUCH MUCH MORE without it. The meds for the restless sleg syndrome are helping now too and I’m sleeping better, and the dog is sleeping up closet to me again, apparently I was kicking the carp out of him and he moved out of my way.

Well, I think I am going to go and join the dog on his bed for the night. Got a lot to do tomorrow.

thanks for the laugh. professional hypocrite. I love it.

As an amateur, I”m still working on my technique. Gotta get rid of that guilt trip.

good night.

Online dating agencies and even dating agencies in particular bring trouble. That’s where I met my spath.

From my experience 75% of the folks you meet have issues.
I don’t know about the females but I can remember a lot of the men they sent to me tried to get into my pants on the first date.
I had to fight off a bunch of guys and threaten them with legal action. They also sent me gays, men that beat their previous ex-wives, etc.

I have heard of folks meeting someone descent but I believe those are the rare exceptions and are few and far between.
I was watching an episode of “say yes to the dress today.”
(kleinfeld’s bridal salon) and the bride mentioned she met her fiance through online dating. I can remember thinking “you poor thing”. I hope you met a descent one.

Suffice to say, I met my current husband by myself and I picked a keeper. I do know in NYC they have exclusive dating agencies that charge high rates. This is to keep the trash out and they really screen well. I met a business man on one date and he told me he belonged to a few. He also told me stories of women he knew that got raped by answering classified personal ads, etc.

Craigslist is also a place where you’re likely to meet rapists and sociopaths.

Hi Skylar,

I am really mad at your ex, by the way. After going through what am just yet starting to survive from, rather than merely drag through, I am able to put this kinda stuff into a new perspective, and it really makes me angry (I’m completely in stage 5 now). I am mad at my ex spath and yours and everyone’s on here! I am mad at them all! And now that I understand that what was dealing with was an spath, and recall all the things my father did which clearly fit the bill and formed my personality growing up, then think of people I’ve met who were spaths but I didn’t know at the time…I get that feeling too, like I am surrounded by these people, and how the heck do they even exist in the first place!?!?!? Every morning I wake up and wish I knew what had happened to the cat I loved so much. I realize that I cannot even afford a frying pan, yet he just bought himself a new watch with money that his friends gave him. I feel the fear of knowing that he will stalk me, and the anxiety of not know when I will be face-to-face with him again, not knowing where to run.

Then I come on here and you are saying the same thing, and I get mad at all of them!

Ox Drover, you said: Well, sky for sure anyone who is angry and filled with rage may be a psychopath, but you know”.I remember the time I WAS FILLED WITH RAGE, AND ANGER, and that is part of the cycle of grief for those of us who have been or are being abused”.so not everyone who is “angry all the time” is a psychopath.

Thanks for making that point, because unfortunately this anger stage can set us up to look like the crazy ones. I imagine the day he finds me (I actually moved to another COUNTRY to escape him, but he tells me that he’s coming here….no, I didn’t answer, but he says he is coming here for me). I imagine that day: Me going nuts in the streets or something and spraying him in the face with mace as he starts to pretend I am some mean woman going apes**t on him. I will look like the psychopath! I am carrying mace daily now. Mace that ironically he bought for me with my money that I will probably use on him one day….irony irony.

And Ox Drover I have ZERO tolerance for child molesters as well. You go get em! Grrr.

Hi Panther,
I’m up at 5AM – again. actually woke up at 4AM. Hope to sleep some more soon.

Yes, I see you going through the stages. Anger is definitely one of them.

Irony will pop up all over the place too. Ironically, the spaths did us a big favor: they opened our eyes to this personality disorder and now we see it in soooo many people. And we understand now, WHY certain things happened.

I had a girlfriend, M, in gradeschool. She told me that her dad molested her, but I didn’t believe it, it sounded like a lie. But I do know that he removed the door from her bedroom and the bathroom because I witnessed that. Then, while researching narcissism, I learned that N-parents often do that. So now I know that she was molested.

My other HS friend, R, told me recently, that she was molested by her step-dad and she was punished when she told. She is now a meth addict with no teeth. When I knew her in HS, she was a model and an innocent angel. I get it now. My other friend Mary, who laid down in the snow and froze, was under spath attack. I get it now.

I have many more stories about my old friends from childhood, that I only understood AFTER I learned about spaths.

I “get it” now, that emotional turmoil and disfunction does NOT happen in a vaccuum. It is the after effect of dysfunctional families.

As angry as I am about what the spath did, I am grateful to have this knowledge. And he pointed me towards it. I get it now that my family is sick and dysfunctional and not worthy of the love I wanted to give them.


Oxy – i have had fibro since i was 30, and arthritis in my hands as long. I have had chronic serious neck problems for 20 years (the docs figure this was caused in part by the chipped vertrabrae they discovered at the time, from childhood car or horse accidents. I have an intimate relationship with aches and pains that has nothing to do with aging.

I worked really really hard on getting the fibro to stop flaring and i succeeded..until the chemical load in the last year.

some of this is shit genetics of course, but there are triggers, like chemical exposures. my tendons have always been weird.My dad had his knees replaced in his 70’s. I may have to do it in my 50’s.

What’s going on right now is related to the antibiotics and to the chemical toxin loads – Old age will get me next year.


Good morning Sky.

good morning – NOT!
it may or may not be a coincidence that so many of us, spath victims, have auto immune issues. I don’t really think it was the spath attack (unless you were poisoned, like I was) that caused the autoimmune problems. I believe there is an emotional component that comes from our upbringing. Not sure if there is a cure or if it is permanent. We need more research.

Ironically, my spath poisoning me, might have done more good than harm. LOL! because the poison made my suffering so unbearable, I dedicated myself to learning about food allergies and discovered the gluten intolerance. I’ve had that since I was 4 at least. My mom gave me a Rx from my pediatrician which showed the results of allergy testing: chocolate, WHEAT, milk, orange juice etc… . 1969.

My parents just ignored it.

onestep-thanks for the encouragement. It just gets really hard when people tell me how I need to make myself happy now and not wait til later when I don’t even know what happiness is and what it feels like. I have NEVER been happy. Believe it or not, I do know people who have told me that they were happy for the first time when they finally got the career that they wanted.

I spent my whole life trying to please all the controlling N’s in my life and never doing what I feel would make me happy and now I have been stuck in a life that I feel like I didn’t choose for myself and it’s miserable. It’s hard to make yourself happy when you despise what you do and you’ve despised it for years. I just can’t relate to the find happiness within yourself deal. It doesn’t make a damn bit of sense to me. I feel like I just need to follow my heart for once in my life and do what I want to do. Unfortunately now I carry a lot of baggage from all of it that makes it harder for me to make my life the way I want it. I know I don’t need a relationship, nor do I want one. I have had enough people mess with me in relationships to last a life time and I don’t want to do it anymore. I feel like I have nothing to look forward to. It’s depressing and it makes me so freakin angry.

Yes good morning Skylar! It’s 3pm here in Germany.

I keep having this revelation about “getting it” now. For example, when I couldn’t take it any more of his sh*t for about the 50th time, I just didn’t show up for work for 4-5 days (lost the job and my home from this). I was in my room, in the bed, immobile. The spath loved this, because then he got to play hero and captor at the same time. I couldn’t move and he especially enjoyed that now he could try to further convince me that I wouldn’t be able to survive without him there to rescue me from my obvious disorders. Don’t bother paying attention to the healthy savings account, stable job, and nice circle of friends I had BEFORE he met me.

Okay but what I am getting at is that no one else understood. They thought I was nuts. I had a nervous breakdown in the middle of the street one night because of his domineering presence that night. No one around understood that he had actually CAUSED it. They just said, “Jee, you were fine 5 minutes ago. Then your boyfriend showed up and you flipped. Man, are you bipolar?” And he actually was telling them, as I was on the floor crying hysterically in the bar that it was all because of him. He kept telling them not to worry, that everything was okay, and that I was only acting like this because he had been torturing me for the past year. Did ANYONE think HMMMMM maybe there is something OFF about this situation? “Don’t worry. I’ll take her home. She’s like this because I torture her. It’s okay. It’s my fault so I should stay with her to fix her now.” If I saw something like this today, I would intervene.

You know who I suddenly understand more than ever? MY MOM! Having an spath dad was really messed up, but my mom raised me, so I didn’t know what it was like to endure that torture day-in and day-out until I got to know him later in life. Then I fell in love with an spath myself and WOW do I ever understand my mother better!!!! No wonder she left him with tails blazing yet still loves him in an aching way. I never understood before how she could love this totally evil man.

About his poisoning doing more good than harm: I am finding this too! I am the healthiest of my entire life right now since I left him last month. I went gluten free last week. I cut out everything that was crap from my diet, I am growing my own herbs now. And the running. This part is actually funny, because I have so much motivation to go jogging. I keep telling myself that I need to run from him and not look back, and then I end up feeling this need to go jogging. It’s like the metaphor is turning into actual practice. I run all the time lately, and I’m getting so healthy.

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