By | April 6, 2012 66 Comments

Pakistani woman disfigured in acid attack commits suicide

It’s appalling for one woman in Pakistan, and appalling for all women in Pakistan. A woman flees her abusive husband, he allegedly retaliates by throwing acid on her. The husband is acquitted—many believe because of his political connections.

Read Prominent Pakistani acid victim commits suicide, on

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Ox Drover

I had read about this terrible case and others like it….the “honor” and “revenge” killings of women and attacks such as this are part and parcel of the culture. In the UK a poll was taken of young men born in the UK of Pakistani background and 20% of them agreed that Honor killings and acid attacks were justified.

So that culture is not dying out very fast even out of Pakistan itself.

The killing and horrific beating of a pakistani woman in California recently that at first glance appeared to be a “hate killing” with “go back to your country” painted at the scene now seems to be focused on the husband as the killer because the daughter was resisting a forced marriage and the wife was planning a divorce.

When the abuse of women is endemic in a culture that is centuries old it is not going to die out any time soon. Boys grow up seeing their mothers and sisters devalued compared to them.

It breaks my heart. It is bad enough in a country such as ours where “equality” of the sexes is still a pretty new concept with things like voting rights even still less than 100 years old. It is still only the last 50 years or so that women’s property rights are protected in the US.


Jeeeezuz gawd, but this is the most heinous thing I can imagine. It is so flipping sad that women STILL suffer abuses in these types of cultures. To KILL (or, maim) a woman because SHE was RAPED?!?! WHAT?! As if it was HER fault? Godalmighty, it’s so terribly sad.

This one hits very close to home for me, cause I was living in Turkey with a Turkish man who’s version of sociopathy was very much influenced and made worse by an extremely patriarchal culture. I heard horror stories like this one too often there, and once I was caught in the net, I was afraid to run. He threatened to go to the law and sue me when I tried to get a restraining order. I was so terrified since the rules favor men there that I didn’t follow through. I just wanted until I could leave the country.

I mentioned this before, but I really do think that in cultures like this, sociopathy is socialized into the culture and that the culture itself is somewhat sociopathic. In Turkey, for example, MOST men seem to be either Narcs or sociopaths, yet in the context of their own culture, they are considered totally normal. “Oh, he’s just jealous.” or “How romantic. He tried to kidnap you?” or “All lovers lie, so why are you surprised that he did?” or “Well, she’s a whore, so she’s worthless and it’s okay to rape her. She sells herself anyways.” (by whore that could mean anything from not wearing a burka to being an actual prostitute depending on how fundamentalist the person is) And on it goes.



The only reason I was able to stand my spath was because he HID who he was for so long.

My father is a misogynist and I vowed never to have anything to do with a man like that. Instead I ended up with a misanthrope.

The spaths with the really good masks are the scariest. When they turn on you, it’s like demonic.

Ox Drover

Panther, I have been North Africa where women of that culture are considered like “cattle” or other property. I have known men here in this country who were raised in those cultures and where women are concerned, you are right…they are not considered quite human. The women are also conditioned from birth to feel second place to a male. Taught by culture and religion to conform to that culture these women lead lives of “quiet desperation” I think.


Aunt Jennifer’s Tigers

Aunt Jennifer’s tigers prance across a screen,

Bright topaz denizens of a world of green.

They do not fear the men beneath the tree;

They pace in sleek chivalric certainty.

Aunt Jennifer’s finger fluttering through her wool

Find even the ivory needle hard to pull.

The massive weight of Uncle’s wedding band

Sits heavily upon Aunt Jennifer’s hand.

When Aunt is dead, her terrified hands will lie

Still ringed with ordeals she was mastered by.

The tigers in the panel that she made

Will go on prancing, proud and unafraid.

– Adrienne Rich, 1951

Ox Drover

ps it isn’t only the women of North Africa, sometimes it is the women of Northern Scotland, or Southern Italy…


We’re considered cattle still by the courts, which is why children are returned to abusive parents. The parents have their rights. Rights to what? Abuse their children? No, right to have access to their property.

When I first had my son, I got assistance to get formula for him. There was a very offensive poster up in the WIC office that showed a woman with twin infants, a boy and a girl. It didn’t state what country they were from, but by the way that they were dressed, it was either India or Pakistan.

The boy was fed breast milk and was big and thriving. The girl was fed cow’s milk and was one of those horrible, starved, third world, skeletal babies we often see. The mother was smiling as she held her two babies. The poster said something about the superiority of breast milk.

I was so angry and upset, because I had been diagnosed with breast cancer while pregnant, my baby was induced so they could start chemo on me, and I couldn’t breast feed if I wanted. I wrote a letter to the newpaper telling them exactly what I thought and how manipulative and offensive I found that photo and poster. This was in the waiting room of the WIC office.

My stuff is off topic, but the photo certainly showed how differently the two sexes were treated in that country starting from birth.


I know it happened a long time ago, but I still want to say I’m sorry for what you went through – cancer while pregnant and spaths all around. You are really a survivor.

There is so much for us to learn. I spend all day trying to get an understanding because I know this is important.

It really is all about us. The spaths are there for us to learn from. To learn how not to be. And to have compassion for those who fell into Satan’s trap.

I’m only learning now, what my mother is. It’s the most painful thing to learn because I loved her so much. It hurts so much more than my exspath. The mask is perfect.

She doesn’t lie all the time, like most spaths do. She doesn’t need to. Her facade is an all-encompassing lie. It’s the almost impenetrable lie of a saint. She pretends to feel when she really doesn’t.

There are so many people like her.



I’m so sorry 🙁 I am glad you are still up. I think we are the only two on here at the moment.

I will post more tomorrow, but wanted to say that I feel like such a failure. I started EMDR today, but couldn’t even do it. I felt so depressed…told the therapist that I couldn’t even do therapy right. I wasn’t able to concentrate on the image and also watch the lights with my eyes; I just couldn’t concentrate on the two at the same time. The therapist told me that what he has learned from me so far in our four visits is that I am very easy going and very cognizant and that I don’t want to let the anger go. I have an appointment with him next week, but I am not going to go after that. I will have spent almost $600 at that point and for NOTHING. I just give up. I feel like nothing is going to help. I am so mad at the spath right now.

I am so sorry your mom has hurt you so much. I see how that could hurt worse than the spath. There ARE so many people like her 🙁


The discussion about sociopathic cultures is really an intense topic – it boggles my mind that these cultures STILL exist and are apparently thriving.

I recommend “A Thousand Splendid Sons/Suns” as a book to read. Also by the same author, “Kite Runner,” the books are far, far more informative and quite gut-wrenching than a movie could EVER be.

A strong word of caution on both books: they will both cause some very serious triggers, especially “A Thousand Splendid Sons/Suns” for those who have survived domestic violence and abuse. But, they are very, very good reads and they were quite cathartic for me, personally.

Brightest blessings.


I must have gone to sleep right after I posted.
Don’t feel like a failure. You’ve learned the technique, you just can’t seem to implement it right now. My therapist also taught me a tapping technique for reducing stress related to events and I can’t do it. It’s too triggering and uncomfortable, and I have no faith in it. I spent $400 that I didn’t have on that, but she did give me a hypnosis tape that helps me.

It’s possible, Louise, that you can’t let go because you feel you still have something to learn from the experience. I think you WANT it to change you and you haven’t achieved that yet.
Maybe you should consider writing about it. Write the story of what happened in a journal. Write every detail. Maybe something will come out for you.

For me, what is helping me the most, right now is studying Rene Girard’s theories of hidden violence. It is helping me understand spaths in a wider context than just one-on-one.



I just checked back in…how timely.

Thank you. I know I shouldn’t feel like a failure, but it is all so overwhelming right now. Everyone talked so highly of EMDR and how well it works and I can’t even do it. I feel stupid all over again. I was also holding pulses in each hand and was able to concentrate well when my eyes were closed, concentrating on the images and feeling the pulses. My therapist said that it is just as effective, but like you, I don’t have faith in it. I don’t feel any different after one session and actually feel worse. It’s just way too expensive to continue and I’m not going to pay all that money for the alternative which is talk therapy. I can do that on here or with my best friend (who supports me in this) for free.

I just want a breakthrough. I love your suggestion that maybe I still have something to learn…you have suggested this to me before and perhaps you are right. I just feel soooo stuck because I WILL have revelations and “aha” moments and think I am better for it and then bang, I just keep getting knocked down. At this point, I just don’t feel like I will ever be better. I know that sounds self defeating, but I just don’t know what else to feel or think anymore 🙁

I will study Rene Girard’s theories. Something has got to give.


In regards to my parental units, I still haven’t been able to “fix” myself. I think I just can’t accept what I know to be true. It reduces me to that little girl inside who just wanted mommy and daddy to love me. The truth is that they never did because they can’t. They don’t know love, they only know power.

The same is true with your exspath. What he did is because that is all he’s capable of doing.

I can’t remember if you’ve mentioned your family of origin. Are they “normal” or are they N’s? In many cases, the FOO is the reason we got sucked into the trap with the spaths.

Here’s what I’m currently reading on Rene Girard’s theory. I’m on page 7 of 10 because I like to read it slow and absorb it.


G1S, I’m so sorry for what you went through when you were pregnant. There are a lot of women who would love to breastfeed, but for one reason or another — CAN’T. And they have to deal with the breastfeeding propaganda and “police” — well meaning people, usually, but pointing the finger of judgment without knowing any of the facts. Terrible.

Also a terrible poster that you describe — I was successful in breastfeeding my twins — yep, I didn’t feed one at the expense of the other (what a thought!). There is no need, because when breastfeeding is possible and works (as it was/did for me), the mother’s body produces exactly the right amount. So that’s a stupid, ignorant and abusive poster.

I think the way people who need assistance are treated sometimes (as stupid, ignorant people or else we wouldn’t be in our predicament!) is terrible.


Louise, DEAR ONE….not every therapy is suited for everyone. You will find what works for YOU! I think Skyar’s observation is spot-on – you have something left to do with the anger, and you’ll know what it is when you get to it.

I have been really, REALLY struggling with the anger issue – I was feeling badly because I was so angry. Well, my counselor looked right at me and asked me, “Do you think you might have every RIGHT to feel angry? Are you angry at yourself instead of him?” And, yeah…….this made sense to me. I was angry at myself – ME – because I had extricated myself from a previous abusive marriage only to jump into a frying pan of deception and an elaborate scam. I made a huge mistake by not healing from the first experience before giving my trust to someone while I was still in a vulnerable, needy space. THIS goes directly back to the “inner child” that was needy, wounded, abandoned, and abused. Sure, I was all of those foibles, but that did not give the exspath permission to perpetrate his long-con.

Anger is very powerful. It can be very damaging, but it can also be VERY productive when it’s channeled into some creative and expressive manner. Writing, painting, singing, gardening, running, etc., can take up that incredible energy and burn it out of us. Anger requires a whole lot of energy and it makes us FEEL energetic on a certain level. But, it only feeds itself, and my anger towards myself – the victim – was misdirected.

This is just temporary, Louise. Things will happen as they should and WHEN they should. HUGS TO YOU



Thanks for that link.

What you said is so very true of myself also…I have said over and over I just can’t accept what he did to me…I can’t accept that it wasn’t real. As long as I am stuck there, I will never be healed as we all know that acceptance is the first step. Again, sometimes I think I have accepted and then I fall right back down again. Yep, power, you are right…that is all he knows. I actually found something interesting on the Internet earlier this week about why so many spaths are not Alpha males. It all tied back to their mothers (surprise) and how because they are/were dominated by their mothers, they feel like they have to have the control and power in other areas of their life so they lie and cheat and have these double lives. It made sooooo much sense to me…sounds exactly like mine…what do you think of that theory?

Hmmmm, no my parents are not Ns. They were pretty benign really. My dad was just an old farmer…very quiet and unassuming. The farm was his life and that’s all he knew. Never went anywhere in his entire life and worked from sun up to sun down. My mom never worked outside the home, but worked very hard along side my dad on the farm and also raised three children. She was more the dominant one as far as speech, but my dad was the one who was ultimately in control (finances, etc.). My mom was extremely overprotective though…I wasn’t allowed to go ANYWHERE. I really did not have fun teen years as I was not allowed to do anything. I always thought that had an effect on me. I think I was lonely my entire childhood. Two older brothers…no one to play with…no sisters. My dad was out in the fields and my mom was too busy with everything else to give any attention. I tried to burn the house down when I was only about 5-6 years old and I believe it must have been a cry for attention and boy did I get it! Who knows. I REALLY don’t know. One thing I do know is that the middle brother got into a lot of trouble and I do think that by me observing that, I always felt like I had to be the “good” one. I couldn’t cause any trouble because he had already caused so much grief. I don’t know how much that helps…maybe you can decipher something from all that info.


Louise, I think Truthspeak may be onto something. What you said, that you felt “like a failure” at therapy… feeling like a failure can be a sign that you are turning anger in on yourself.

I don’t know if this will apply or not:

I am sorry that I do not remember the details of your particular spath experience, but spaths often do this to us: it is like they stab us with a dagger and we grab the handle and push it in further.

Can you pull the dagger out, instead? And then treat your wound?

If that is not helpful… I am certain that you will find what IS helpful. For me, I think in pictures so it is visualization and metaphor. But I know that is not it for everyone.


Truthspeak and 20years…I gotta run right now. Wish I could stay here and blog, but I will be back this afternoon. Thank you both and skylar for helping me with this difficult time. I will be back later…


Louise, perhaps your anger is rooted in the AVOIDANCE of accepting the Truth: he DID do those things, and he IS a sociopath? When we hear things that may be hurtful but are “true,” we become angry – simple human reaction. Perhaps, this intense self-directed anger is because the Truth means that his actions were INTENTIONAL.

Just an thought…..hugs


Thank you, kind people, for your supportive words about the Nazi breastfeeding people. I used to say that I had the pregnancy from Hell, but God gave me an angel baby.

Louise, I believe that God won’t give us any more than we can handle. Sometimes, we need to chip away at things one tiny piece at a time. Sometimes those tiny pieces are so small that we are not aware that they are even there.

There are no time tables for healing. Nobody has a scorecard or is keeping tabs with how much work you have done.

I found for me that there were things that I couldn’t face, deal with, process, or whatever. Usually, they terrified me either because I was afraid of what feelings would come up, that I would have to admit that the nasty people were right all along, or because I was afraid that I would be alone and abandoned if I let this one thing go.

Anyway, I just did whatever I could. Intellectually, I realized that I had a problem. Intellectually, I knew that I was stuck. That’s a big part of the recovery. The awareness that something was working against my best interests. Even if I couldn’t identify what was wrong, the mere fact that I felt something meant, at some level, that my mind and body were taking care of me.

In time, I would eventually be able to pull things together. I would be able to identify what was going on. So, awareness isn’t a one-time, everything is revealed at once thing. It’s a process.

To this day, I cannot remember the details of being raped as a teenager by our church’s minister. I remember bits and pieces. I know it happened. I’ve seen the SOB look like he wanted the Earth to swallow him when he accidentally ran into me at somebody’s Christmas dinner. I also know from other people’s report that this guy did other things and was very inappropriate with other members of the church.

I was at an Al-Anon adult children of alcoholics meeting once talking about how I couldn’t remember and feeling very guilty about it. Several women came up to me afterwards and said that I was lucky. They wish that they could forget. They remember every detail of their sexual abuse. That’s when I realized that I had enough information to process my feelings. Knowing every detail wasn’t necessary to do that.

Getting back to being unable to let go or get past something, what would eventually happen is that I’d wake up one morning asking myself, “What’s the big deal? I am so sick and tired of this. Time to (whatever – let it go, deal with it, forget about it, get on with my life, confront the person – whatever.)”

So, this was the final acceptance.

Only then could I take action. It often was something as short as, “Well, that person doesn’t get to live rent-free in my head anymore” or something more like concrete like making a phone call or writing a letter. Sometimes what I needed was a good cry to let everything out and embrace myself as someone who did not deserve what happened and that I am worthy of love.

Usually, the acceptance and action parts were very short, especially in comparison to how long it took for the full awareness to bloom.

Al-Anon and AA call what I described the three As – awareness, acceptance, and action.

Please don’t be hard on yourself. What have you failed at? You’re processing something. It’s going to take whatever time it takes and whatever effort or passive waiting that it requires. There is nothing to fail at. Things are unfolding or working at a pace that is best for you. That’s all that matters.

That’s why Al-Anon and AA take things one day at a time and just for today. Just for today, I tried. A little bit. Mabye I didn’t have any success or I screwed it all up, but I tried.

Unfortunately, nobody hands us a script so most of the time, we’re pretty clueless about what’s going on. We can only hope that we’re heading in the right direction. That’s why we let go and let God. Ever see those bumper stickers that say “God is my co-pilot”? I’d just as soon take the second seat.

It’s like laying the bricks for a building. We have no idea what the building is eventually going to look like, but one day, if we keep plugging along, we’ll see the beauty revealed.

Please take care of yourself. You have support and understanding here.


your parents sound controlling and neglectful of you as a person who has emotional needs. Your description reminds me of my parents. I was also not allowed to do anything until after I ran away from home. Then I came back and they allowed me to do whatever I wanted with NO boundaries, no rules, no curfew. They were hoping I would go wild and find myself in deep shit. Instead, I got a job, bought a car, got engaged and was happy. They didn’t like that.

So when I left my fiance and moved in with the spath, they were pleased because they knew what he was. They overheard him say he was only with me for my money.

You might consider talking about your upbringing to your therapist and getting his take on it. I, myself, didn’t understand that I was abused by my parents until 3 years ago. I didn’t know what normal love was because I never experienced it.

As far as why the spaths are not all Alpha males, I would say because they don’t want the responsibility that an alpha male has. My exspath would rather pull the strings from behind the curtain. That’s where all the power is. Then when the sh*t hits the fan, he just slithers away.


Sky, Louise

I suffered from anorexia as a teenager – my mother was insanely controlling and angry. A “N”. And she lies. I recovered from anorexia, moved forward, forgot about it, and tried to have a good relationship with my parents. Until I met my spath.

And then I took another look at EVERYTHING and I realized that despite 300 miles between us, my fucked up family of origin was still impacting me, that my mother was still manipulating me and lying to me. I just didn’t see it.

I think for many of us who end up involved with spaths, there is stuff in our history we’re not aware of that make us more susptible to being a victim. At least, that was true for me.

I still have this big hole in my gut. I loved a guy who can’t love me back. The guy wasn’t even real. It just kills me.



Athena and Louise,
This is a good article that describes how anger can actually be unacknowledged shame or humiliation.

I thought it might help you both in that it could perhaps lead you to see if your anger is caused by a feeling of shame by what the spaths did to you.

It doesn’t really help me in that context because I repress my anger too. 🙁


Louise, greetings. I have some advice for you that is on a completely different tack. Eckhart Tolle’s book “The Power of Now” is extremely powerful. It is written in such a way that you almost cannot be changed by reading it. There is a lot of time spent on these threads discussing visiting and revisiting the past, which most of us do in our minds all throughout the day every day or in therapy. In the book, he talks about how powerful it is to live completely in the present moment – it is what is taught at meditation retreats – the pure effort of being mindful. Even a moment of mindfulness is extremely powerful and can help you stop obsessive thoughts.

The past comes up in your thoughts as a memory trace, but even the memory trace is occurring in the present moment. If you read the book and attempt to simply be present as he discusses, there will be openings where the mind quiets down and stops obsessing. Then – and only then – real healing and release can occur. The problem, as he beautifully describes, is not that the mind is thinking or what it is thinking about. The problem is that we get IDENTIFIED with these thoughts, and we build our entire identity around them. We forget what and who we really are. It is very difficult to break that identity without some peace and quiet inwardly – some space from getting caught up in the thoughts. You cannot heal yourself at the level of thinking and thoughts. It’s as simple as that.

I hope you will read the book. I’m only on page 40, and it has been a great reminder.

From reading your posts, I get the feeling that you can study the spath until you are blue in the face, until you know so much about spathology that you could write a book about it or even play a spath on TV. But all this is doing is feeding your thoughts – none of this helps you to be free and break the addiction. Even going back intellectually and analyzing your past does not break the addiction.

This practice he discusses in the book does break addictions. You can break them in a moment, and in that moment, you will understand how it is done.

I recommend this book for everyone here.


Ox Drover

G1S, I’d like to say that I am so glad that you are here at LF, your posts like the one above are absolutely right on, kind, considerate, well worded and thought out, as well as ultimately compassionate.

Thank you for being here and for your participation.


Oh, Oxy, thank you. Big hugs to you! {{{{{{{Oxy}}}}}}} 🙂


OxD…..ditto that. G1S, spot-on and compassionate. A number of us are so stinking raw that it’s difficult to keep the angst OUT of responses. Mine, in particular!



Thank you, Truthspeak. I’ve been taking my lumps for so many years that my hide has toughened up as well as I’ve learned a lot. I’ve got almost 26 years in Al-Anon along with I don’t know how many years of therapy and other things.

Tolle – I know there are people who think he is wonderful, but I respectfully disagree. I have tried to read and listen to his stuff and found that I couldn’t. What little I did get put me to sleep, but that is not to say that what he says is invalid. It may be very valid and necessary for somebody else. It simply is not for me.

For starters, I would not speak for everybody else’s experiences. How does this man know “what people do” or speaks for what people need? How presumptuous.

I have seen what some people do. I know some people better than others so I can make a better educated guess why somebody did what he or she did, but I am not an authority of anyone.

I do not identify myself as a victim. I do not identify myself as a breast cancer survivor. I am not a breast. I am not somebody else’s bad behavior. I am not an abused child. I do not build my entire identity around any one thing or things that happened in my life.

The only thing that I can say with certainty is I am a soul going through this earth-plane existence now. I know my age, gender, and a few other things, but I cannot even say why I have this age, gender, or the other things in my life. I think, I believe, that they are all present for my soul’s growth.

Know what G1S stands for? Growing One Souly. I wanted to describe that I am one soul, growing slowly, and growing on many different levels and will continue to do so for many lives to come (yes, I believe in reincarnation – I always have.) The best that I could come up with was Growing One Souly. For the record, it still falls short of what I was trying to describe.

If it helps someone to understand where I am coming from, for instance if I say that I am an adult child of an alcoholic, I will say that for the sake of expediency, but none of the above define me. When I come here, I talk about the Ps and Ss in my life because we all resonate to that chord, if you will. Elsewhere, I sign a different song.

I readily admit that there were times in my life that I did put such labels on me. It’s where I was in my growth. Those labels were fine. None of this was permanent. We are always growing, even the clueless ones. (Not sure about the Ps, though…) Maybe I should say, “most” of us are always growing.

I went through these experiences. They have shaped my life. I made choices on how to deal with them. I owned these things so I could process and release them.

I feel that discussing these things helps other to come to terms with whatever they are struggling with. I share my experience, strength, hope, failures, and whatever because I do not know what somebody else needs. I know that I have gained from others. I hope I can pass those gifts along to somebody else, even if it is only one person and only one time in my whole lifespan now. I hope it’s more. As I said, I do not know what others need.

Earlier this week, I parted ways (and I have not idea if this is permanent or temporary) with someone who has newly discovered Tolle and yoga. (“Newly” for me means she has been doing this for the past couple of years. Hardly out of the gate in my book.)

She looked at this site and thought it depressing. Mind you, this woman has a Master’s from Harvard and considers herself intellectually superior to most, including me. It floats her boat. This spirituality stuff is “silly” and she wouldn’t think “to rank” anybody when it comes to spiritual growth, but if everybody is “silly” because she doesn’t believe in “this stuff,” what did she just do? I digress.

I think she’s wrong, but I bite my tongue because for all I know, that’s what her soul needs to believe at this point in its development.

What irritated me is Grasshopper couldn’t see any spirituality here whatsoever, which is when I called her clueless to her face via an email. I haven’t heard from her since. That’s OK. Let her do/think whatever.

This place is filled with spiritual growth. The love, comfort, support, and discussions are bettering everyone who participates and many of those who read. (I’m not sure about the Ps who sneak in. I haven’t figured out where they fall in spiritual evolution and decided that I don’t need to know. I am not in charge of them.)

I do not believe in “rising above” the world or putting somebody in “the white/pink/gold light of love and understanding.” How do I know what somebody needs to go through spiritually?

I simply release them. I do not know what their Higher Power has intended for them. I let them go and focus on me, but I cannot let go until I can identify what is created the bond. That’s how my mind works.

We chose this worldly experience for … God only knows what reason.

I have long suspected that when a bunch of souls were gathered in the waiting room in anticipation of being incarnated into their current lives, somebody must have walked in, clipboard in hand, and said, “OK. Who wants to volunteer for the life-challenging program for intensive soul growth for this next trip around?” Guess who was the idiot fool in the back row jumping up and down, waving her hand, yelling, “Take me! Take me!” Ha! Never again.

Bottom line, I am proud of who I am today.

Trust the path that you are being led on. If you feel the need to know something, study it. Don’t fight the flow. Go with it.

If something has caught your eye or interest, there is a purpose for it. Examine it, experience it, and keep being you. Trust your gut.

If you feel called to meditate, be quiet, and go within, even study Tolle, then that’s part of your process. No one path is superior to another. We are not that limited. We are too multifaceted.

In time, we all end up at the same place.

Stargazer, please know that this is not about you. I’m speaking out because you said the Tolle word and thoughts my clueless friend (or ex-friend, however she wants to define it,) came rushing into my head.


that’s funny that tolle puts you to sleep. From the first page, I could tell that his book was a form of hypnotism. The words he uses are words that hypnotists work. Deep, Deeper, Deepest.

He even says he will repeat things over and over and over so that they will sink in. It is meant to hypnotize, but that’s not a bad thing.

That simply means that it is meant to address the RIGHT brain, which does not operate in the same plane as the left brain. For example, it does not have a concept of time, it doesn’t work on hierarchy. It sees pictures and though it CAN be verbal, it mostly communicates through pictures. Like dreams. When you are asleep, that is when the left brain ALLOWS the right brain to “talk” and that’s why we dream. You can confirm all this by googling hypnotism and reading up really quick on a how to and why.

Interestingly, I fall asleep instantly when I get hypnotized. And the hypnotism tape my hypnotherapist gave me knocks me out.

So anyway, the whole book is about releasing the “hold” that the left brain has on our perceptions and allowing the right brain to communicate more. That’s why it makes you (and many other people) fall asleep. LOL! that’s so funny because it means it’s working. 🙂

the only thing that bothers me is that he should have explicitly stated this at the very beginning. It is obvious to me because I’d recently been studying hypnotism, but not everyone would know that.

Ox Drover

Tolle comes across to me like some sort of “guru” that has found the “ultimate truth!”

G1S I understand where you are coming from and you put it so eloquently. I find it difficult to put into words (believe that or not, I am the queen of the Novel length post–not even kathy Hawk comes close!) LOL

I had been raised in holy fear of God and going to hell because I would die with one sin on my heart that I had not repented of and asked the mean white haired old man god that my egg donor had me scared to death of by the time I was in first or second grade.

When I fled I was totally devastated and in fear of my life, but I also clung to the scripture that said He would not put more on us than we can bear and that “all things work together for those that Love the Lord” I started re-reading the Bible with a different perspective, and corresponding with a minister I know who is the most loving and accepting man I have ever known. He lives what he preaches and that is LOVE. Not hate. Not hell lfire and brimstone.

I got to thinking about things as I read, and seeing things for the first time in the old stories of the Bible…seeing a different perspective on “forgiveness” and a different perspective on life events. How we LEARN from the things that happen to us.

King David was described as “a man after God’s own heart” but yet he was a sinful man and did some pretty bad things, he took another man’s wife to his bed, then when he knocked her up, he had the man murdered in battle, yet when he REPENTED and he did, he changed his ways when he saw he had sinned.

I realized that we do NOT have to be “perfect” to be a person after god’s own heart. We can be human and make mistakes, do bad things, but REPENT and be better people in the future.

King Saul tried to kill David and David had to flee into the wilderness…I saw an analogy between him fleeing in to the desert and me having to flee my own home. God could have had Saul not try to kill David but I think there was a LESSON in the wilderness for David that he could not have had if Saul had not tried to kill him. I found LESSONS in my own wilderness, in my own losses of my home and my safety. I put too much stock in the security I had built for myself (I thought)

I realize that ANYTHING we have can be lost in a moment’s time. Our health. Our sanity. Our home. I also read Dr. Viktor Frankl’s “man’s search for meaning” during the time I was in the “wilderness” and I felt really bad because I had not lost everything like he did in the Nazi camps…but also he explained that each of us has TOTAL grief…total pain. But my pain was not any less because I didn’t lose as “much’ as he did, that pain is like a gas, it totally fills the container it is in. It contracts or expands to fill the void. A baby that drops his binkie is TOTALLY in pain, and he feels like he has lost everything. His whole world is nothing but loss. Now we know that he only dropped his binkie and that it isn’t the end of the world, but the baby thinks it is the end of his world.

We are the same way, we feel like everything we have lost is terrible and total. But just as the baby can heal, so can we.

Today I am sad because I lost my little dog, but while my heart is broken it isn’t the end of the world and I know that, but I can still FEEL the pain of the loss.

Elizabeth Kubler Ross wrote about the “grief process” and how we are in denial, then sadness, then bargaining, then anger, then acceptance….and we go from one feeling to the other and back again. and do this over and over as we process the grief of the loss. the more we cared about what we lost, the more deeply we feel the grief and the different emotions. Eventually we come to ACCEPTANCE and we then go back to sadness, or anger, until we come back to acceptance again and eventually we come there and STAY there.

I look back at the loss of my beloved step father over 18 months of cancer…we did our grieving before he actually died, so that when he finally passed away, it was like we had come to acceptance together and he was ready to go and we were ready for him to go.

With my husband’s sudden death, it was differnt we didn’t ahve time to “prepare” to anticipate his death. It came suddenly and as a shock. As traumatic as it was, none the less, we did have our chance to say goodbye and for that I will be eternally grateful. We had those 8 hours to come to grips with it. Still it was traumatic enough that I got full blown PTSD from it. Which left me vulnerable to the predation of the psychopaths who wanted what I had worked a life time for, who wanted what my parents and grandparents had worked for as well. Who felt entitled to take not only my possessions but my life as well.

The entire episode with my egg donor and how she devalued and discarded me in favor of my son’s psychopathic wife and the Trojan Horse made me finally come to the realization that she had no love for me…that our relationship was built on control and smoke and mirrors. That in itself hurt. Then the various “friends” we had that were also parasites. Accepting all these various “losses” and realizations one after the other was like “waiting for the other shoe to fall” but eventually one after the other they fell…thud…thud…thud…and I had to learn to set boundaries in order to protect myself. I also learned about ME…learned the things I had been doing that enabled these people to do what they were doing. How I had to change MYSELF. I had participated in my own victimization. I had to make a decision to STOP doing what I had been doing, and to act in different ways. Not only to act in different ways, but to THINK in different ways.

I have read and read and read some more trying to put it all into perspective. Learning about psychopaths, and learning about the brain, and learning about myself. It is all a process. It is a JOURNEY not a destination. There is no time I will come to say “I am healed” because I am HEAL-ING, LEARN-ING, GROW-ING.

The peeps at LoveFraud have been a big part of this, they have been a sounding board for me to bounce things off of, to give me new directions in which to look. I will forever be appreciative of those people who have been supportive of my journey. Who have held my hand when I fell into the pot holes on the road to healing.

The articles I have written were written more for me than for others…they are things that made me look inside myself for the answers that I needed at that particular time. Sharing them and the comments about them have helped me to refine my own thinking.

OF all the books I have read, I take a piece here and a piece there and put them together into a mosaic that fits ME. It may not fit anyone else as a whole, but if a piece of it fits then I hope that people will use it to create their own mosaic of healing.

Thanks to you all for sharing my journey toward healing! (((hugs))) and God bless.


Yes, Oxy, yes. That was so lovely and right on. Eloquent. Thank you.

To add to what you were saying, you are very right about perspective. Think of how, when you’re a 3-4′ tall kid and it snows a foot or two. If you go out into that snow, it’s so deep that it might come up to your waist. Fast forward to you being a 5’6″ or 6′ adult. How deep is a foot or two of snow then?

I think that is one reason adults who were abused as children should go back to revisit the abuse.

They are adults now. They have an adult perspective. They are eye-to-eye with the adult perpetrators. They can see the situation for what it was, the lies that were told to them, why they were so scared, and how they were wounded.

They will never get the love that should have come to them as children, but as adults, they can now parent their inner children. This is what the inner child movement was about, which unfortunately isn’t discussed much anymore. It’s still valid.

This new perspective also contributes greatly to feeling compassion for ourselves as children for being incapable of stopping the perpetrators and for not being responsible for the abuse. It helps us to recognize that we were lovable all along and still are. Victims of Ps could learn from this as well.

It’s the proverbial story of three blind men examining an elephant. One feels the trunk (or tail,) one feels the elephant’s side, and third feels the elephant’s leg. Their perceptions are all correct, but they can’t see the forest for the trees.

When it comes to Ps, it’s the P telling us which part of the elephant is present. We’re blinded to the rest of the beast.

Skylar, I LOVE being hypnotised. I get hypnotised very easily. A hynoptist told me that I make a great subject. I can very easily be put into a very deep sleep. Would love to try that some time, just to see what happens.

One time, must have been 30 years ago, I was at one of those hypnotist shows. I was WATCHING and in a back row. The hypnotist was telling the volunteer to keep relaxing, relaxing. Suddenly, and I never felt it, I fell on the floor. Didn’t hurt. Just slipped right off of one of those folding metal chairs that they always set up for meetings or lectures. I was fully awake the whole time. Never felt remotely different. I was paying attention to what was going on. Heard every word, saw every action. I was just as surprised as everybody else in the room.

If I could get addicted to anything, I think I could get addicted to hypnosis. In fact, I was looking into getting an appointment with one just this week.

But you know what troubles me about Tolle? That he thinks his answers are for everybody. Noooooooo. Too presumptuous. Not for me.

And he’s using a hypnosis technique without telling people first that’s what he’s doing? Mind control? Creepy.

And what is with thinking that you have “the answer”? Is that narcissism? I mean, seriously, who in their right mind would claim such a thing?

I know that there are tons of people who just love this guy, such a gentle creature. He’s certainly pulling in the money. Shudder the thought, but might that be his real plan? Maybe we should wait. Maybe this gentle guy will turn out to have an ulterior motive in the end. Spaths come in all shapes and sizes.

Isn’t that sort of what happened with that couple a few years back who came out with “The Secret”? Just think it and you’ll have whatever you want because the mind controls your life.

Always hated that one, too. The unsaid message was if you didn’t get what you wanted/thought about, it was your fault. You failed. Your REAL thoughts bring the bad stuff into your life. You are flawed!!! You need to get honest so your self-destruct switch can get turned off. Oh please.

I stay clear of Tolle, because I don’t like his voice or demeanor, but how is that any different from the yoga guru who charms the ladies?

Maybe I am reading WAY TOO MUCH into Tolle. I am open to that possibility, but as soon as somebody starts talking that they have “the answer,” I start looking for the door.



As you know, I’m a big fan of Tolle. And being a left coaster again, I’m ok with some of the airy fairy guru stuff.

I think that what he talks about that is so relevant here is the story of how at one point of his life he was soooo low he was considering suicide because he thought “I can’t live with myself”.

And then had the realization he was describing himself to himself as two. One of those was the individual in unbearable pain, and the other was the one observing that the unbearable pain was too much for the first one to live with.

So, if we, especially we, can learn to live in the place of the observer, we can choose to not live in the body of pain. And this has a really healing property.

We can find peace as the observer. We can recognize and acknowlege our feelings of distress but we have then the ability not to give up our time to being the body with so much pain.

Well, it helped me tremendously to learn about this. I would often listen to the lecture where he talks about it over and over.

Its a potent stress management technique. At least it worked for me.

He’s talking about the same thing as Victor Frankl. And I bet many many wise and faithful people have discovered as much.

I am grateful to have found and been able to connect with that wisdom. Otherwise, I’d probably have gone beserk when the truth exploded onto my horizon. It was almost more than I could bear.

Sometimes I think that very wisdom came to me from the helping hand that will not deal us more than we can bear because it was pretty obvious I needed a clue.

Thank GOD for that one and LF. I remember the first day I signed on. If you hadn’t been there, I don’t know where I’d be but the rest is history now. Isn’t it?

For both of us. For all of us.
Pleasure walkin’ with ya!

In a Minute there is time
for decisions and revisions
which a minute will reverse.
(TS Elliot from Prufrock)



I think God speaks using whatever method will get us to listen. I think that what may not work for one person may be absolutely perfect for another.

I’m just very gun shy about anyone saying that they have “the answer.” Reminds me far too much of my hypercritical S mother who corrects everything and everybody. She’s got an answer even when nobody has thought of asking a question.

So when my Grasshopper friend trashed LF for not being spiritual because she listens to Tolle, I called her clueless. That doesn’t mean Tolle is clueless. I don’t know enough about him to say. I do know, though, that NOBODY has all the answers and that this place is very spiritual. If somebody thinks otherwise, then they’re clueless in my book.

Suicide – I’ve been suicidal off and on for most of my life thanks to my lovely family of origin. Then one day I realized that if I committed suicide, it would be the ultimate win for the Ps. Not only would they have gotten rid of me, but how delighted they would be to run with that news. No way was I going to hand that to them with a bow tied on it.

What finally turned the tide for me permanently was realizing that I wasn’t the bad apple on the family tree and there was nothing wrong with my family name (I seriously considered legally changing it.) They are the bad apples on the family tree. I have two male cousins who both told me that they are proud of our family name and that they look forward to my adding to the honor of owning it. How can you not love such people??


I haven’t finished the book, “the power of now” so I’m not sure yet what to think. But so far, so good.

I approached it with much skepticism because, even though I’m a “left-coaster” like you, I can’t stand new age guru stuff. (we had Ramtha in our area, back in the 80’s or 90’s, what a crock!)

So far, I’m impressed with the book. He talks about the same things that Gavin DeBecker talks about: being present in the moment. I wouldn’t say any of his stuff is NEW ideas, but it is presented in a compact package in a way that is meant to make it sink in.

Personally, I have every reason to be skeptical because my spath-brother, who lives in my parents’ basement and has attacked me in the past and kicked kittens to death, can spout guru-speak with the very BEST of them. He has read all the eastern philosophies, he reads Carlos Castenada, and joined scientology for a while. He know the schtick, he can sound coherent. But he’s still a spath.

So, I’m very, very suspicious and will raise alarms at the very first red flag. So far, the information is good.

you can find a hypnotherapist who will hypnotize you once or twice and then sell you his/her audio tape for weightloss/ smoking cessation/ motivation/ or a variety of things.

Then you will be primed to respond to his/her voice and the tape will be more effective. And you can use it at your convenience whenever you want to be hypnotized.

I also read an article that said you can make your own tapes with your own voice and it should work… I haven’t tried it.

Ox Drover

I have used “self hypnosis” and also been hypnotized….”relaxation” techniques and meditation are really a form of hypnosis. It is focusing your attention on one thing…either the voice of the hypnotist or on your own inner dialog. Either way it works.

Bio-feed back is essentially the same thing, too. I have gone to some classes where we would focus on things that could be measured like say the temperature of the palm of your hand (with a digital thermometer applied to it.) I had one class where this woman who had never done anything like this before raised the temperature on the palm of her hand 4 degrees. OUTSTANDING!!!!

Some people are good enough at it that they can stop bleeding or have surgery or child birth without pain….I’m not that good at it, but I do the guided meditation and relaxation and it has helped me in my stopping smoking and in some pain control.

It has also been used to help patients with high blood pressure lower their blood pressure. I’m not sure just “how” we know how to raise the temperature in the palm of our hand, but somehow we can divert blood flow to that part of our body by “thinking” it. Thus raising the temperature. The same with lowering blood pressure. How? I don’t know but it works.

Indian mystics can do all kinds of stuff that seems “far out” with their bodies by “mind control.”

I can usually regulate my pulse and can slow it down into the 40s on a good day. Couldn’t use it for child birth though, lost control of the meditation when the pain got too bad! DRUGS! Give me drugs! LOL



I should have told you – when you first posted about this book, THE POWER OF NOW about a month ago I went ought and bought the audio version. Not cheap. But wow, what a value.

I listen to it at least 3 x a week, and even though sometimes I fall asleep listening, I know it has changed my life. I ruminate less. I feel myself becoming incrementally happier and in the moment. Thank you for the great gift.


Somewhere else you posted asking if my anger was really shame. I am sure it is. I am ashamed at what I let my spath do to me, to lie to me like that, to humilate me like that. I think about the different things now and I just want to jump out of my body. I am just so angry and ashamed. And of course I am angry at him too. @!#()!(#[email protected])(#!)@#@[email protected]#(.

I am trying to just let go of the whole situation, so that better, more positive things come into my life.



he slimed you with his shame. That was his intent.


Yes. On the surface he has no shame. Inside, he is raging with shame and that drives everything he does. I do grasp that.

I just don’t know how to shake it out of me. How to get the SLIME off me. In a way, the POWER OF NOW is helping me do that, when he says don’t let other people define your reality, and don’t let the past affect the NOW. Still, I haven’t completely shaken it. I feel inclined to LASH OUT at the asshole. But instead, I am blogging here in my pajamas.



When Louise Hay first came out, I recorded a cassette tape of all the affirmations that I thought were applicable to me plus made up more to fill up the tape.

Then, I’d stick that tape into my car’s cassette player and would have it going non-stop while I drove to wherever. It worked. Helped a lot.

I’d love to have a past life regression done by a hypnotist to see what might come up regarding my charming family of origin.



I am finally trying to catch up on everyone’s posts.

I feel anger towards myself AND him. At myself for being duped and at him for doing the duping.

That is why I don’t want to date AT ALL. I do not want to jump from the frying pan into the fire and it’s not fair to someone for me to go out with them when I am still healing.

There is one thing I do channel my anger into and that’s exercise. Thank God I have that or I would surely have gone crazy by now!

Thanks, Truthspeak…onto the next post…



What you said about the dagger is true. I am trying to pull it out! 🙂



I think there is a “key” in what you described as you feeling the need to be the “good” one.

When I had my identity crisis at 24 (14 years ago) this was something I ended up understanding through therapy (individual and group therapy for 2 year in total). While I was ousted by my peers in elementary school and early HS, I becaome to seriously doubt my own self-worth. “Why wouldn’t want anyone not want to be friends with me?” I felt a failure. My parents tried to counter this self-doubt by telling me what a nice person I was, that I was kind, generous, open minded, accepting. So, I clung to that identity to define myself. It was not a lie by my parents, but I let it define me so much, that I would not allow myself to be angry, let alone show it to people (aside from my parents). My anger built up as undefined frustration in my teens. Sometimes I’d feel so mad and angry for no reason at all. I’d trash my room, pound my fists on the wall n the privacy of my room. When my mom found out had these fits of rage, she had the doctor prescribe me something homeopathic to help me calm down again.

It took a long while of therapy for me to understand how I was still trying to be the living example of an “angel” and dissociated from my what caused anger or upsetness. I needed to learn that being upset and angry over maltreatment is absolutely normal and necessary… that it’s not abornmal or something that needs to be medicated or diagnozed as wrong. It’s the reason why I avoid using pathological definitions on feelings or behaviour of myself.

My milestone in that therapy came when I looked in the mirror and told myself that “Yes, I am a good person, but I am allowed to be a bitch as well if circumstances warrant it.” I told myself this over and over… I actually felt a change in myself, as if some weight was lifted from my shoulder. That’s when I announced my therapist and the group I felt I was ready to continue by myself.



You are probably right as I really don’t want to accept what he did to me. I don’t want to accept that it was never real and that turns into anger. I am working hard on this.



Good point! Imagine that…I never saw my parents as controlling, but now that you pointed it out, they were! My dad wasn’t controlling of me, but he was controlling of my mother (controlled the finances) and my mother was controlling of me! That WAS extremely controlling of her to never allow me to go anywhere…wow, I just never saw it that way. What a revelation. And to clarify, there was no reason for her to not allow me to go anywhere, ie, because I got in trouble, etc. I was never in trouble. I saw her overprotection of me as love…wanting to protect me from all the bad in the world. And I do think that IS true…that was her motive, BUT…it was STILL control! Hmmmm, very interesting.

I think you were spot on with the Alpha male thing.



I AM ashamed! Definitely and I am not “ashamed” to admit I feel shame. I think I feel the shame just like a drug addict feels shame…I am addicted to something (a person) and it’s shameful. I hate it. Then the shame does turn to anger.



Thank you very much for your post. It was extremely comforting.



Thank you for your suggestion on Tolle. I will check it out. I hope you are doing well.



“The Secret” turned me off for the exact same reason. Yeah right…I just “think” it and it becomes mine…right! I wish. And then you are right…if you do this and don’t get whatever it is you wished for, what must be wrong with me??? Sigh. Nope, I don’t think that’s the way the world works.



Wow, thanks for your post! I really do think that is part of my problem. At least I have been able to identify this one piece of the puzzle, yeah? I actually identified this years ago how I tried to be the “good” one. It has followed me all these years, but I am beginning to think like you that yes, it’s OK to be a good person, but to also be a “bitch” when it is necessary!

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