By | November 2, 2012 63 Comments

Penn State president charged in scandal

Pennsylvania prosecutors have charged Graham Spanier, former president of Penn State University and a trained family therapist, with covering up the actions of Jerry Sandusky.

Ex-Penn State President Spanier charged in Sandusky case, on

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I hope to GAWD that this goes forth and makes it very clear that ENABLERS and FENCE-SITTERS are just as culpable as the perpetrators!

The exspath’s mother KNEW of his affair – perhaps, not to the extent of the deviances, but she told me from her own mouth that he should have ended the marriage, months earlier, before it came to blows.

The World Of Enabling is a zone that needs to be pulled into the realm of accountability. I sure hope this STICKS and that Spanier faces some serious consequences.

Thank, Donna, for keeping this dreadful mess up to date.

Ox Drover

I also totally agree with the prosecution of these people who KNEW what was going on and did nothing….except conspire to hide it.

It to me is just as bad as if someone had known that 9/11 was going to happen and conspired to cover it up.

I hope these creeps get solitary confinement right next door to old Jerry. Locked in a concrete cell 23 hours a day with only the walls to stare at, no adoring crowd of admirers around to talk to…just the walls. Even if he has books and a TV it still gets pretty boring not being able to go out….having NO power over when or what he , when he sowers or anything else.

I live in a comfortable house with a loving son and I’ve been physically “down” now pretty much since last January with this bad leg and just the not being able to go outside as MUCH as I’d like, even though I have a home, books, TV, DVDs and company….I am bored to tears at times, just want to see the sunshine,, feel it on my face…..don’t ya know Jerry is pretty depressed right now, and bored and trying to figure out how he is gonna “fix” this, never getting to see the sun, see a garden or a flower, or even a piece of grass.

Well, I hope his buddies get cells right next door.


Here’s another article about two more being charged in the case.

Oh, I don’t know about solitary confinement. I lean more to letting them enjoy the companionship that prisons have to offer. Think of new friends who would be drawn to them.


They need to charge his wife! How many breakfasts did she serve to broken little boys and do nothing about it? Talk about depraved indifference! This case makes my head explode, so many people who looked the other way I hope they all go to prision, as these kids will suffer the rest of their lives. I hope they do get in with the prision population, so they can have a real understanding of just how violated the true victims were.


A beautiful song for those of you who are struggling today :

“Have Your Way” by Britt Nicole

Lyrics :

Feels like I’ve been here forever
Why can’t You just intervene?
Do You see the tears keep falling?
And I’m falling apart at the seams

But You never said the road would be easy
But You said that You would never leave
And You never promised that this life wasn’t hard
But You promised You’d take care of me

So I’ll stop searching for the answers
I’ll stop praying for an escape
And I’ll trust You God with where I am
And believe that You will have Your way
Just have Your way, just have Your way

When my friends and my family have left me
And I feel so ashamed and so cold
Remind me You take the broken things
And turn them into beautiful

So I’ll stop searching for the answers
I’ll stop praying for an escape
And I’ll trust You God with where I am
And believe that You will have Your way
Just have Your way, just have Your way

Even if my dreams have died
And even if I don’t survive
I’ll still worship You with all my life
My life, yeah

And I’ll stop searching for the answers
I’ll stop praying for an escape
And I’ll trust You God with where I am
And believe that You will have Your way
Just have Your way, just have Your way

I know You will, I won’t forget
You love me, have Your way

I hope everyone’s doing well. Haven’t posted in a while. Bless 🙂


Also, I’ve written a blog post regarding Jesus’ crucifixion ( relevant to sociopathy )… if anyone is interested in taking a gander. Somehow i felt compelled to share this with you all.

blog post #2 on the same topic :

Be warned! Controversial topic, yes. But so terribly important to me.

I always seem to be quoting Kathy Krajco on here, but anyway, a supplementary post where Kathy makes a ton of excellent arguments :

An excerpt from the post’s (Kathy’s) comments :

“You say that God needed to punish humankind. So, we take the most innocent scapegoat possible (who, being God is also the offended party), and lay our sins on him and punish him for them. This somehow PLACATES his father?

Yes, I’m aware of the cloud of cliches this message is packaged in. Blow all that smoke away, and this is what you have. Believe it or don’t.” – Kathy Krajco



Last easter I interpreted Jezus’ crucifixion completely as a spath enounter. Not just Judas, but the Pharisees and Pilate are all portrayals of spath behaviour. Jezus is their scapegoat and blamed for not stopping them. Meanwhile the people in Jerusalem turn on him, just like many spath victims end up being kicked like a dog when they’re already down, until eventually even his followers/friends turn away and deny him in order not to be scapegoated as well by the same rabble.

Originally Jezus talks about giving the other cheek, about saving people without questions, taking on responsibility of anyone’s mysery (healing the crazy, sick and the dead, as well as those leading an amoral life and the lepers already punished in life for their sins etc), telling others not to throw the first stone, reminding everyone has a dark side and is never completely good. Initially he lives by the same beliefs thing many spath victims live by: the myth that everyone is good and bad and deserves another chance (again) and that our love and empathy can take away or save someone from their sins. Basically he starts out an enabler.

And then he experiences the whole devalue and discard process done by spaths. He pays for it with the cross, and feeling absolutely abandoned and alone. His broken despair is acutely expressed when he asks “Why have you forsaken me?” Is that not how most survivors felt at some point? How could they – who have been so well meaning, who loved so many and so much, forgave and helped – not only end up discarded by the spath, but trampled on by his minions and the fence sitters and even abandoned by their family and friends as if they were a leper?

What he becomes after the crucifixion is again comparable to a spath survivor: he finally sees the merrit in judging people. That is exactly the seat he earns beside his father in the heavens: the judge’s seat. He can now look into the hearts of people and judge them as being either evil or good, and he acquires the power to choose who to keep in his company (in heaven) and who will not tolerate in his company (sent to hell).

I am not religious, nor a believer in the supernatural… but I think the most crucial part of the story of Jezus is the seeming opposition between his original stance towards humanity and what he eventually becomes. And it is the betrayal, the scapegoating, the trial, the cross and the rabble that forces him to regard humanity in a different light than he had before.

WOW, darwinsmom,
I remember you discussed that last easter but it didn’t quite resonate with me then, like it has today. That is really very insightful!

I like Rene Girard’s theory as well, but I’d have to say that you give him a run for his money. I’m very impressed.

Symbolisms have layers. The meaning one person gets may be very different from the meaning another gets because we have had different experiences. Rene Girard explains that Jesus’ death was meaningful because he was a very obviously innocent scapegoat and he revealed the truth, that all sacrificial victims are scapegoats (whether innocent or not). Jesus reveals that the purpose of the scapegoat is not to cleanse the guilty of their sins, but to make them FEEL cleansed. Jesus reveals the shame of the victimizers.

You have taken it a step further. You’ve described the “life-cycle” of being a victim, as portrayed by Jesus and as WE, here at LF, have experienced it. You’ve given me a lot to think about. Not even sure my brain can handle it!

Edit: I just re-read your post. You’ve nailed it. Thank you.
Can I repay you by stealing your idea?


darwinsmom, thanks for the response.
I’m glad to be able to talk about this candidly with someone who is familiar with sociopathy and what it entails.

The thing is, I think Jesus must already have been aware of sociopaths’ existence ( after all, he was able to identify Judas as a devil.. and the Old Testament is littered with references to the devil ) if at least from learning from his Father- my understanding is that all “devils” as mentioned in the Bible are sociopaths. Human beings were each given free will ( sociopaths are not born, they are the way they are willfully ) After all, He learned from his Father- but having become human, he was privy to deception just like the rest of us. Of course, not before it was too late. Free will is the ultimate theme here.

I also think knowing of sociopaths’ existence does not necessarily make you immune to their @#$%.

I’m not really fond of words like “enabler” because I believe the victim is always 100% innocent of the crime that spaths wage on them. But I agree with you on the fact that Jesus goes through the whole process you mentioned

My understanding also rests on the fact that Jesus mentions Cain ( who killed his own brother and then lied about doing so to God ) in his teachings, saying he was “of the Evil One”. Do not be like Cain It all ties into not giving into evil, nor being persuaded by those who ARE EVIL, to do evil. I also think it’s so important how the message of exercising caution in mind and understanding is repeated throughout the Bible. Wisdom, the great virtue, is extolled in the highest respect.

The key here is that spaths are the way they are because they are willful about it, they enjoy evil. They are evil incarnate.

I also just think the whole theology behind the Christian/Catholic doctrine is plain and dead wrong… and not to mention incredibly harmful. They’re basically projecting Judas’ ( a being who is NOT human but a devil! or sociopath, whatever label you want to attach ) crime onto humanity. How perverse is that?

I think when Jesus taught to turn the other cheek, he wasn’t referring to sociopaths, but humans. The colloquial version meaning, “if you play with pigs, you’re only going to get dirty” … there’s also don’t throw your pearls to swine…

Remember it was written : “How can you say we are wise, for we have the law of the Lord, when actually the lying pen of the scribes have handled it falsely?” Jeremiah 8:8


As for sociopaths being the way they are willfully ( we are ALL subject to the same free will )

I have some resources on the topic:

How do brains get different? by Kathy Krajco

Robert Hare : Psychopath MRI fast forward to 6:44 for the quote

“Its quite possible that the differences we see, and this would apply to many tasks, that we use in the study of psychology, it may that the differences are the primarily the response of differences in strategy. It may be very well be that they can perform the task reasonably well, but using different parts of the brain. This isn’t to say they can’t use the appropriate parts of the brain, simply that they DON’T.”
– Robert Hare


To add to the topic of Jesus having already known about sociopaths/devils, remember He said :

“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

John 8:58

The key here is that He didn’t have this magic cloud come down from Heaven to usher him back. He was privy to the same mortal circumstances that anyone on Earth was. That was “the cup”, the deal.

“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” Mark 14:36

Yet religion has bastardized this into interpreting the “cup” as being tortured to the extent of death for everyone’s sins, which makes no sense whatsoever, no matter which way you look at it.

Ox Drover

Sky and Darwin’s mom, I think with the Bible, Greek and Roman Myths and all good literature there are psychopaths portrayed, and the “human drama’ and look at HISTORY of every culture and every time as well. PSYCHOPATHS EVERYWHERE.

Look at the local NEWS for goodness sakes, not only the national news!

Every one of us here has a “soap opera” story to tell that if we didn’t know where true, we would think it was BAD FICTION! LOL

I have a plaque on my refrigerator that says “remember, everyone thinks we’re a nice normal family.” LOL ROTFLMAO yea, right! I had a small one that said that but found this larger one and mounted it on my refrigerator.

I read the Bible and even Shakespeare with “new eyes” now in seeing the psychopathic themes in it all.

Of course my egg donor and Dickie Chance, the “minister” that got caught sending pictures of his junk to what he thought was a 14 year old girl which turned out to be a 40 year old deputy sheriff…..and the other hypocrites tried to force down my throat that “forgiveness” meant that you PRETENDED IT NEVER HAPPENED. Well, I no longer find that “verse” in the Bible….LOL but I refuse to let the hypocrites stand between me and my belief in God. They do not have a special telephone line to God that He gives them special messages on how I should think or believe.

I firmly believe that EACH of us must determine our own spiritual beliefs and no one else can tell us what we “Should” or “should not” believe. It was a great relief to me to realize that I could determine my own beliefs and not have to please the egg donor. She has her beliefs and she is welcome to them, but I do not subscribe to them any longer.

Jesus said Himself that there would be FALSE teachers enter the “fold” (church) Wolves in sheep’s clothing. So I no longer elevate any “teacher” above my own reading of the Bible, though I do read opinions about this or that, just as I read different opinions about different research done on psychopaths or whether or not I should take this or that medication or which food is the more healthy. But in the end, I make up my OWN MIND from the information I have learned by study.

Putting aside 50+ years of “programming” by egg donor is difficult though….but reading the Bible without her “interpretations” helps me to see many VALUABLE lessons I totally missed before…like the story of Joseph and how he TESTED his brothers who had sold him into slavery before he TRUSTED them again, or even let them know who he was.


And also, personally, saying someone was “born” a sociopath is scapegoating in itself in my opinion… “Genes” being the scapegoat here. No, they don’t have an excuse for their behavior. Not one.

Not meant to be inflammatory to anyone who thinks otherwise, but I just wanted to share.

I do believe in the importance of unveiling the objective truth, exercising much wisdom and caution of course, if at all to bring justice to victims involved. For example, Sylvia Plath’s death is widely regarded to be solely attributed to Ted Hughes (philandering) … but what most people are unaware of is a key player behind the scenes… Assia Wevill… who willfully seduced Ted Hughes, and I quote ( sylvia ) as if in “Warpaint”… Assia Wevill was definetely a sociopath ( killed she and her own kid (Hughes’ child as well) as her last ditch effort to bring Hughes’ down as if hurting Sylvia to the extent where she chose to commit suicide wasn’t enough. ) Evil incarnate. Of course, there’s a lot more details to the story on the Assia/Ted/Sylvia debacle, but just to be brief.


I have no problem with genes being a culpert at all. I know many people with all sorts of neurological problems that they were born with that run in their families. These are known genetic conditions.

I am surprised that Hare said that. I’d ask for the date that he said it because it is my understanding, which may be wrong, that he proposes that Ps are born missing the part of the brain that governs remorse, empathy, and guilt. That quote strikes me as something that might possibly come from his earlier research.

I wrote an article on “Does God Know a Psychopath?” I believe the Bible comes down very hard on psychopaths. I also think that many don’t see that because the Bible is very demanding when it comes to accountability, remorse, and changing one’s ways. And the answer to that article’s question…it’s yes, most definitely (and God is not pleased.)

If somebody isn’t that interested in religion or doesn’t feel spiritual, the Bible is going to read very differently than someone who is that way and reads and studies it in depth and frequently.

This isn’t the place for that discussion.


G1S, i posted a link to the video where he explicitly said this in my post. I only jotted down the quote. Here it is again the quote is taken from 6:44 and onward.

What exactly do you mean when you say “this isn’t the place for that discussion”. No one is being forced to discuss anything here, it is all in the nature of free debate. We’re exchanging ideas. It’s relevant to sociopathy. I think it is pretty relevant. ( I could have misunderstood what you were referring to by “this isn’t the place for that discussion” so correct me if I am wrong )

If you are a die hard atheist or turned off by any of the discussion topics in the comments, just skip over the posts. The general rule of thumb on Lovefraud is free debate. I love exchanging ideas with other people on here and it is a niche community, so certain things discussed here wouldn’t quite be received as well ( due to lack of understanding ) elsewhere.


Also, I think comparing neurological problems to the brains of psychopaths is like comparing apples and oranges.

I think genes are a scapegoat. It’s akin to claiming the insanity defense. The theme is the same : “It’s not my fault!” ( Like we haven’t heard that before… yeah.)



You are absolutely free to use my interpretation of it. Isn’t it interesting that his miracle work attract no enemies? Nobody hunts him for his miracles (which imo is goodness, but also taking on responsibility of others, being the saviour of others, and an enabler is a good person who wishes to save someone else the easy way for that other person). He’s welcomed with palm leaves at his entrance of Jerusalem.

But then he does something very different. He criticises what happens at the temple and disrupts the money dealing. He threatens the sociopathic establishment for the first time in a manner he has not done before. Of course he has always stood up for what he believed was right, but the way he did it before was a way sociopaths could use and twist to their own benefit. This time he rejects amoral events in actions, not just saves. Of course the Pharisees won’t accuse him for disrupting the money dealing at the temple: they know he has a point. Instead they accuse him of narcissism, projection.


We were all aware at some level that there are sociopaths and we tried to make miracles happen in our own way when saving people. We knew there existed some truly very bad and greey people. We knew intellectually, but we didn’t know up close and personal with our hearts. Nor did we fathom the aftermath and other people’s responses once we realized we were betrayed. Our gut told us our spaths in our lives were being awful, but it didn’t make the devalue and discard by the spath any less shocking and painful, didn’t make the losing of jobs, house, children, family and friends any less a surprise in the aftermath. There is a huge difference between knowing of/about spaths and evil and actually experiencing it.

Before the betrayal Jezus was aware of what was to happen and by whom, and yet a part of him couldn’t believe, did not want to believe society could be that cruel, that his best and most beloved friend would betray him without blinking. He still hoped he could save humanity from evil by doing miracle saviour work on the sinful. I knew the ex-spath was a dangerous man from the first time I laid eyes on him. I knew he was someone I should stay clear from. I didn’t and I ended up wanting to save him. I knew it was gonna end that he would discard me, that he was looking for a replacement, but I didn’t want to believe it, and I had no power to end it myself. I accused him a week before of not caring for me, of wanting something different than he claimed by his behaviour and his actions. It didn’t make the discard any less shocking and painful to me. I realized he must have been betraying me from long before, but it didn’t make the evidence of it any less painful or shocking.

It’s called cognitive dissonance: we know the reality, but we can’t believe the reality. Jezus is clinging for hope that his idealism will trump the reality up until his moment of despair at the cross.

I think what G1S implies about discussing the bible reference by reference may not be fruitful to people, such as myself, who cannot reference sentence by sentence. Not that it’s bad that you’re referencing it, or that it makes for an unequal discussion. It just means that I interprete from a total different intention. I read the bible as I read a book of fairytales. It has no deeper meaning to me than that, or rather as much symbolical meaning. (I’m a fan of fairytale books). One of my favourite fairytale is the Little Mermaid (as Anderson wrote it, not the dastardly Disney version of it). And it has as much spiritual thruth in it than the passover story of Jezus has, because it attempts to tell women not to give up their identity for love, because by trying to be someone else than they are, they lose their voice and lose the prince anyway and even ends up dead… and that prince doesn’t deserve such a sacrifice. BTW the little mermaid story evokes the same and equally powerful “this isn’t right” emotion from me as the passover story does.

I don’t mind the discussion though and what you believe it to mean and finding references to back that up. I’m not going to reference, because I can’t and feel no need to read it in detail again and again.

I’m not saying the passover story should be interpreted as I do. It’s possible it wasn’t intended to evoke the interpretation that I make of it. But it’s what I get out of it though: he starts out with a non-judgemental saviour complex and ends up being the ultimate judge. And the transformation can happen for him because he went through the devalue and discard process by spaths. And for me when survivors have gone through that process they have experienced somewhat what happened to Jezus (and many survivors felt emotionally crucified and spat on at some point I’m sure) and go through the same growth and transformation: instead of trying to work miracles with people, they judge people they meet on their behaviour and deeds and enforce boundaries by deciding who’s allowed in their personal haven (aka heaven). And the passover story never made much sense to me until the spath experience. I did have emotional “this is wrong” response to it always, but I never comprehended why a miracle worker would be crucified the way he was storywise. It was a part of his life story that I wished to reject and ignore. Instead I found the present-the-other cheek personna and part of his life much more interesting: it was a personna I could identify with.

And no it doesn’t make sense to crucify a person who wishes to save people from their own demise. Spaths never make sense. Now the passover part does make a lot of sense to me, and it’s something I can identify with. My view on his personna before the passover has altered deeply too. I still recognize him as a good person, but I also think he’s going about it the wrong way, taking up too much on himself with his miracle work. I totally get it now why his father forced him away from that path: it’s an idealism that doesn’t work as it is intended to work, it just enables evil/spaths unintentionally; it doesn’t hold people accountable or make them responsible of their own wrongdoing.

The passover story has grown tremendously in importance to me because of the spath experience. I was discarded with passover. I kicked the spath’s methaphorical shins around the time with easter that Jezus kicked the moneytables, calling him out for how wrong he treated me and that I was fed up with it. I knew the end was coming and yet clung to hope for a week, which then was thrown in my face, and out came the conviction that I deserved much better as well as the judge.

I don’t think identifying genetics and neurological problems is enabling psychopaths from not being responsible for their actions. I understand some people may try to use genetics and neurological conditions to argument that, but that is one step too far. Science is about understanding conditions and events, not excusing it.


This is the best news I’ve heard all day. Now that there is justice for the victims, I hope they can move on with their lives. They deserve to be happy after what they’ve been through.

Actually, even his miracle work attracted enemies. He was criticized for healing the sick on the sabbath! And he said, “WTF? if you lost a sheep on the sabbath, wouldn’t you go out to find it?”

Well, something like that anyway.

I do think that he knew who was spath and who could be saved. He didn’t enable anyone. He forgave their sins when THEY approached him filled with contrition. He ate with the prostitutes and the tax collectors and all the other sinners, who were considered unclean. He was criticized for that but he was there to be their role model and to teach them how to BE.

There is a story about him walking among a crowd of people with everybody pressing around him, then he asks, “Who touched me? Power has gone out of me. I felt someone touch me.” Of course many had touched him but he felt one woman touch the edge of his robe. She had such great faith that he felt it through the masses of crowds. The woman was healed of her bleeding just by touching him. And Jesus said, “your faith has made you well, go in peace” So he was not “duped” the way we were. But he had a mission and he knew in the garden that he would be betrayed the next day and he accepted it, not because he was an enabler but because he had to process, as you said, the entire life cycle of the innocent victim, complete with the transformation which allows us to sit with God and to judge good from evil.

According to Girard, this process revealed not only Jesus’ innocence but also the innocence of all the previous scapegoats. In fact, what it revealed was the scapegoating process itself and that it is a hidden mechanism that humanity uses to deny responsibility for themselves. It is the mechanism of abusers.

I was hoping you would say, “no don’t steal my idea!” and then I would manipulate you into writing an article for my blog!! 😉

Really, if you want to, I’d love to see this theory placed in a blog article, either here on LF or on my blog or both. It is exceptional.

Ox Drover

Just because a psychopath as a genetic tendency for increased risk taking, or ADHD or anything else does NOT give them free reign to murder, rob and rape….psychopaths are NOT “crazy” or “insane” they know right from wrong, but they CHOOSE to disobey society’s rules (laws).

I heard though recently from a man who is researching psychopathy that one fairly well known PhD researcher is testifying in court that he thinks that the genetic end is a DEFENSE against the psychopath being prosecuted. Like “diminished capacity” but he is supposedly being paid to testify to this, and I have not read it for a FACT yet, though I will be checking out this report to see if it is TRUE. I don’t think though that he will get very far with it if it is in fact true, as the general concensus of researchers is that they ARE responsible for their choices.



I find it hard to believe that Jerry Sandusky’s wife, Dottie, didn’t suspect that her hubby was attracted to boys. She possibly kept herself in denial, not wanting to face the truth about him (it’s too awful to admit, process the spath’s dirty deeds, as we all know). In our cases, we have made discoveries about our spaths and faced the truth (painful as it is) and we draw the line, not protecting them, going along with their baloney. If Dottie knew that boys were at risk around her hubby and failed to protect them, then she should experience some severe consequences (just like the others who did nothing to protect the innocent children). Her spath has created (typical of these disordered types) a huge mess for everyone, causing immense suffering.


Of course Sandusky’s wife knew what was going on…come on!!! But exposing him meant she would lose her life as she knew it…she would lose everything and her life would never be the same and there was no way she could risk that. Plain and simple.


Yes, Sky, he did miracles for those who came to him with an appearance of sorry and guilt. Is that not how the spath comes to us at first.

I see how he may not have been an enabler. Though I still think he takes on too much responsibility in saving and helping, beyond what is required. And one of the things I used to dislike about the passover story and the crucifiction is the guilt-tripping of people over it, even though they were born 2000 years later. I find that a perversity, and I still do.

But yes, the main point is that the passover story paints a tableau of the spath process and its effects. And imo it is still abused in the mechanism of abusers: on the one hand his miracle and saviour work, his forgiving nature and turn the other cheek and not throwing stones without sin is used as an example to strife for. It is used to put blame on responsibility on the shoulders of people who never had anything to do with it, and of course empaths and moral conscious people who are prone to seek blame within accept the blame. And yet those who feel guilt and interact with people in the same spirit as he does, end up being scapegoated in the same way as he was.

I will try to write it into an article. Last night I’ve been thinking of perhaps contributing with articles, because last night I bundle meditated again for the first time since years, and I ended up at a type of masked mad hatter tea party that could entirely fit on an interbellum tableau by Ensor. We concluded we were being shown a phase, of events in society. We plan to bundle more and I expect this theme to come up more. It was as if we were shown that if we bundle meditate, this is what we will learn about on a spiritual level. I also feel it’s important to communicate and pass on.

I also forgot to write what I wanted to write as a comment here originally… LOL… Yesterday a serial rapist (raped girls from as yong as 15 as well as women in their 70s) was convicted for 15 years of jail plus “terbeschikkingstelling”. The latter is a legal term in Belgium law where criminals thought to be pathologically dangerous to society can be held in prison beyond their official jailtime for another ten years and even then can be interned for psychological reasons beyond that… so basically he got true life, even though his crimes had not YET led to murder and so cannot yet legally get the sentence “life in prison”.

Ox Drover

Darwinsmom, what is “bundle meditate”?


The crucifixion is not something to feel guilty about. Either people believe it happened or they don’t.


Bundle meditation is a meditation where you join energies: the personal energies are joined together into one pool where everyone participating gives part of the bundled energy and everyone receives the fruits of it.

Bundling means we connect physically with each other to form an energy circle: with one hand or foot being the receiver end, and the other hand or foot being the giver.

The meditation will be a spiritual journey and normally all participants will experience their personal part of the same journey (that is same level). Since the energy is bundled the meditations are stronger in both how much, how far and how long you can journey.

I personally prefer the lying down and connect feet version of it (left is receiver, right is giver). You close your eyes and first concentrate on grounding yourself (you start seeking earth, grass, forrests): when you experience something, hear or “see” something (an image in your mind) you tell it out loud. It is important to speak, because it is part of the giving and contributing energy. There’s no fixed order who can speak, and there may be pauzes in sensations.

Noone’s allowed to disconnect until everyone is back from the journey, in the present, back in the room where it happens, in the now and their body.

A bundle meditation journey will usually last between half an hour to 45 mins, sometimes up to an hour. Afterwards we discuss the journey, what we think is important, may give each other’s helpful suggestions and then have a relaxed evening of just talking.



I agree with you. My thinking has been that she knew the truth but refused to act, not wanting to go through what the rest of us have gone through, loss, grief, etc., experiencing the awful realities that come with facing the facts, the truth. A lot of people do this.


I really see no issue with quoting bible verses, given care is exercised in quoting which and of course wisdom. After all, we aren’t simply drawing conclusions based on “what I think” or “what you think” … we’re not trying to fulfill or project our own philosophical interpretations onto Jesus- I support my “argument” if you will, with bible verses ( quoting Jesus himself ) because I think it is pretty crucial to be aware of “all the pieces” in respect to the “story”. ( After all, it’s always important to supplement your reasoning for such and such argument with information which follows the same thread instead of straight blind inference )

My reasoning for quoting the verse in reference to scribes is because it is nothing “new” in the Bible to have the word of God mashed up beyond recognition by scribes ( Therefore even the interpretation by scribes, such as those who wrote letters in the New Testament sharing in this ideology of “Sacrifice for Salvation” theme. )

Also, I think to interpret Jesus’ teachings too literally is to do them a great injustice.

It just doesn’t make sense to me that Jesus would have been without knowledge of spaths what with his teachings and his knowledge of the Bible. It just doesn’t occur to me that He would be without this knowledge. I highly doubt He just “learned” about spaths in his last moments. Going in line with Hare’s quote ( paraphrased) “If a sociopath targets you, NO ONE is immune” ( Without Conscience)

If you take one bible verse and quote it in and of itself, it may not necessarily paint the “whole” picture. Here, I think the whole “turn the other cheek” verse is being taken out of its proper context.

For it is also written ( in the Old Testament ) : “It is mine to avenge; I will repay.” – [God] Deuteronomy 34:35

As to Jesus rebuking those who threw stones at a prostitute- I can understand why He would do such a thing. The whole mindset on those who were attacking this woman was of the “Holier-than-thou” variety, as if their @#$% didn’t stink…

He also says, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.” ( paraphrased )… He was here to proverbially “turn the Church upside down” with their practices. On their lips they spoke as if they were emulating God’s will/way when really their ways were sinful and uncharitable. That’s why we see him spend so much time rebuking the Pharisees, the supposed “high ranks” who claim to know but inside are only promulgating the spirit of hate. ( Amongst other things)

I really don’t believe Jesus goes “above and beyond” with taking responsibility- He was the living and breathing example of “Love your neighbor as yourself” I mean, were his teachings revolutionary during those times? Yes. Have they been misinterpreted by the Church ( See Kathy Krajco’s post on victimhood ) and made to stray from it’s original meaning, so much that it’s beyond recognition? Absolutely.

“Father, forgive them. They know not what they do.”

Rather than interpreting this verse as Jesus taking responsibility for those in the crowd who were cheering on the torture-fest, I feel that it’s more in line with individuals carelessly and without wisdom ( “mob-thinking” ) proverbially pouring salt into the wounds of the innocent ( Jesus ). I mean, I’m sure we’ve all been in the position ( I may also only be speaking for myself and a few others so forgive me if I’m wrong ) where simply based on someone’s misunderstanding you are hurt.

And this “misunderstanding” could be one of many things.. for instance the individuals’ in the crowd mentality of believing they are doing right by God in heaping hate upon Jesus (“Who do you think you are in saying you are the son of God” kinda thing. )Also, one we might be more familiar with, might be not understanding the dynamics of the Jesus/Judas involvement ( I don’t like to use the word relationship in reference to humans and spaths, cause well.. it isn’t a “relationship” in the normal sense being that it is predatory in nature ) … basically not knowing the “whole story”.

“You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!” Matthew 27:40

They were without knowledge as well as understanding.

That’s why wisdom is so strongly emphasized throughout the Old Testament.



I agree. A lot of people do it because it’s easier to be in denial and push away the truth. Accepting reality and the truth is way messier.


Continuing on the topic of quoting Bible verses, I would say it would be wrong to chastise another for their lack of knowledge but simply supplementing posts with bible verses, I see absolutely no issue with that. I’m looking for “objective” not “well, maybe this…” A lively and healthy discussion/debate IMHO is one where everything is taken into consideration, and it’s also about hearing another’s take on such and such, with appropriate references WHEN it is possible. That allows for a much more well-rounded and rich discussion/debate ( not to mention less biased ).



I already said I don’t mind the quotations and references. I support backing up arguments.

However, please understand that for me the stories are not fact, not law. Neither god, nor jezus are factual for me.

If I read a book of compiled stories of Hans Anderson I know the author is aware of what was said in The Tinderbox as well as in the Little Mermaid. However the stories and its characters are unrelated, even if say the soldier in the Tinderbox may make a reference to the Little Mermaid, or vice versa… each have a different teaching and message. The bible is a similar compilation of stories for me, a compilation of separate thruths from a society over a span of hundreds of years. I do not regard Jezus as the ultimate messenger over the messages of Mozes, Jacob, Abraham, Ruth, Job, Daniel, David, etc. And since there is no God for me, God’s ideas and words are but the beliefs of the author of that story to me. Since the bible has many authors and storytellers there are several beliefs expressed that do not even come from one mind.

To me the new testament is like a compiled book of for example cinderalle stories by different traditions and storytellers. It’s always about the same thing, and yet always different, a variation. It would make little sense to me to use a quote of one version of a cinderella story to argument an event or the character of another version. Disney’s cinderella would never throw an apple at the prince’s head as does cinderella in Ever After. But throughout we can all agree thta cinderella is a story about a young woman abused and used by her stepmother and stepsisters and is forced into a position of servitude and yet manages to steal the heart of a man who’s expected to marry for status, wealth and appearance.

Jezus’ story has something unusual and special in the passover part. It leaves the story of a man and becomes mythological and ritualistic. I recognizes its powerfulness in that, as it’s exceeds the powerfulness to the human psyche over the story of Mozes, of David, etc. And for me that above human part of the story is the total wrongness of what happens to him, the severity of the betrayal, the injustice of it, and yet it happens daily to spath victims where he transforms from a smart and wise do gooder to a judge for whom boundaries and personal responsibility become his main priority.

I do not claim he’s a fool or without wisdom before the spath process of scapegoating. I and other spath victims weren’t fools and without wisdom, nor lacked boundaries, nor were weak personalities. But we weren’t wise enough yet about spaths and how far they will go, and we still believed that we could make people comply to our boundaries if we only asked them to, we still counted on people choosing good over bad. Personally, I see and recognize Jezus before passover as being somewhat cognitively dissonant between his humanistic idealism and the actual outcome.



Exactly – way messier, uncomfortable, gut-wrenching…! Once you face the facts, sure it hurts like _ell, but you eventually come out the other side, a stronger, wiser soul. I have said to myself, I didn’t know someone could experience so much emotional pain and live to tell about it. You just keep pushing on and you get through it all, “come hell or high water”.



Yes, it is the most painful thing ever or at least it seems like it. So hard and painful to realize that someone we loved so much didn’t love us at all and it was all a game…an illusion…trickery…deceit. I could go on and on. Yep, coming out the other side a changed person, but in a lot of ways, a better person. HUGS to you.


Darwinsmom is correct. That is what I meant.

I believe Donna has some sort of policy against “preaching” on LF. I can’t remember what it is or where it is posted, which is why I feel this isn’t the place for this discussion. I could be wrong. It’s been a long time since I looked into it. Maybe somebody else knows where it is? It’s probably good to look at it from time to time.

If I recall correctly, part of Donna’s reason is that the discussion (not somebody’s beliefs) takes away from the focus on Ps and helping each other in our recovery from them. The same thing goes for politics.

In other words, both of these are topics that do not deal directly (help) with those issues and are better discussed elsewhere.

People come here for help and support.


G1S, I hardly think you could take my posts as “preaching” ( I’m surprised that you even could come away from my posts with that impression… how in the world am i preaching? Because I said Jesus? Because i quoted Bible verses? [note Donna approves of blog posts supplemented with Bible verses])… I think the topic discussed is perfectly relevant. Anyway, as a regular on these boards, this is the first I’ve heard of there being a policy against mentioning topics concerning the Bible…

Helping others recover… it is all subjective, don’t you think?

When I look at Jesus’ life and see even he was aware of spaths, that in itself is an inspiration to me. That Jesus himself was also targeted by spaths could potentially help some people here who are interested in that feel validated in a sense. Or at the very least feel less alone. ( Not that I should have to justify what I’ve written so far… but since you’re bringing up the issue of “helping others recover” )

Like I said, if you dislike what is being discussed or if it turns you off in anyway, feel free to skip over it. That is the general rule of thumb on LoveFraud. Discussing such a topic does not in anyway take away from individuals receiving support.

As I said, no one here is being “forced” to do anything. No one is being harmed in light of this discussion, no name-calling, berating, arguing, anything… it is all in the nature of free debate. I’m actually kind of baffled as to why you take so much offense to this.

Censorship to that degree is not good for anyone. That said, that is one of the reasons as to why I enjoy LF- variety of opinions, educated, informed people ( for the most part ). Sometimes topics may not explicitly be centered around “helping” someone. That in itself does not make it wrong or irrelevant.


Re-examining the past in an educated/informed way =/= preaching.

Also, if you’re going to speak on behalf of someone, please make sure you’re certain they actually possess those views instead of just putting words in their mouth as it fits your argument.



I do recall Donna expressing the rule and wish not to debate religion and politics. It doesn’t mean a poster or article author cannot bring in a bible content or quote concerning sociopathy, or cannot use a politician’s actions and background story to discuss red flags about it.

But Donna does not wish people here to convince others of their religious nor political beliefs. There is a difference between discussion and debate: discussion is exchanging each other’s opinions and beliefs without the wish to be right and prove the other you’re right. It respects a person to have their personal interpretation, belief and opinion without further debate: the agree to disagree.

Debate is a form of discussion where evidence, quotes, facts and references trump anyone’s opinion; it is about proving you are right and the other is wrong, and yes good debate always goes without name-calling.

Donna does not want debate, but doesn’t mind agree to disagree discussions. She has a right to demand this, because this is foremostly a place of healing and it’s her forum. Donna is not truly restrictive though. However, if someone says “This becomes uncomfortable debate for me” then it is advizable to respect that, since they are expressing Donna’s wish.

I find my interpretation of the passover story has a healing potential to people, whether they are Christian or not. Anyone is free to disagree with it and explain why with quotes. But I have no desire to go into an intellectual quote debate over it here, because it’s out of place. Don’t feel the desire to debate over it somewhere else or in private either. I’ve done the religious debate including quotes for several years at a more appropriate place intended for it in the past. It just doesn’t interest me anymore.

kim frederick

Very lively, interesting topic.
Yes. “Forgive them father, for they know not what they do”. That is HUGE. That is the ultimate of forgiveness. That is the ultimate Christain message. That is one of the reasons that Jesus was born and spent time on this planet. He was also the lamb of God…the sacrifice to end all sacrifice. He made sacrifice obsolete. It was his purpose.
There are many ways of reading any text. It can be read literally, or figuratively. It can be read subversively. To read subversively, you read the underbelly of the text…you read into the text, you listen to what is not being said. You expose the unconscoiusness of the text. Whenever we assert anything, we repress, deny and cover over the opposing opinion that is always ever present. We simply erase it, to the best of our ability.
Jesus presence here, was subverive. He was a soothsayer, a whistle blower, a political activist and he was a threat to the powers that were.
He had followers and believers, and that made him even more dangerous.
After he was crucified, a story had to be told. It was cleaned up and presented in such a way, that it supported the dogma of the day.
There is an apochrapha…..a part of the Bible that was ommited from the Bible, because it was the underbelly of the Bible? perhaps. The unconscious of the Bible?
Anyway, my point is that Jesus was here to teach us something about ourselves and human nature in general. If you are at a point in your journey where you believe he was here to teach you that it’s bad business to minister to people cause it will get you killed, and the final lesson is it’s ok to judge others, then so be it. That’s where you evolution in consciousness IS.
I personally think he was here to teach about spiritual conscciousness and that the highest level IS FORGIVENESS.


My use of biblical references has suddenly transformed into this monster you call an “Intellectual Quote Debate” … I never claimed to know more than anyone else here, I simply challenged the notion that Jesus was without knowledge of sociopaths. Supporting my impression with references from the Bible hurts no one. I really think you guys are harping on insignificant issues here.

If i feel compelled to share a quote from the Bible, I don’t necessarily expect you to . IMHO the words debate and discussion are synonymous. I’m not trying to “win” anyone over here, I’m simply engaging in interesting re-examination of the past.

I quote,

Lovefraud honors all spiritual and religious traditions. Lovefraud also recognizes that some readers do not have spiritual beliefs. If any reader is uncomfortable with the spiritual nature of a particular article or comment, please do not take offense and simply move on to another post or comment.


Let’s leave the moderating to Donna, guys. If you are uncomfortable with the nature of some of the discussions to the extent that you believe action should be taken, please message Donna privately about it and see what she has to say about it and whether it is or it is not in line with Lovefraud policies instead of complaining about it here. It derails the conversation where people actually ARE interested in discussing said topic.



Please read my posts without assuming it’s accusing you of anything. The same goes for G1S. Nobody here said you were preaching or trying to win over someone else.

I took your quotes in the manner you say you meant them.

“Challenging” though fits in the intellectual debate category.

Unfortunately the word “harping” is quite derogotary in nature for me and with “you guys” it becomes accusative.

It was interesting to exchange our ideas about the possible understanding of Jezus on sociopaths. I will leave the discussion at that, irregardless of a moderator being present or not.


darwinsmom, forgive me if I’ve misunderstood where you were coming from. I was responding to your saying, “it’s out of place”. I was simply clarifying my intentions with the biblical references in case they too were misunderstood. I apologize if the word “harping” offended you, I did not mean any offense whatsoever. With “you guys” i wasn’t specifically referring to any individual on LF but as a whole… ( not you or G1S specifically but in general ) if someone has an issue with something being discussed here I feel Donna should be contacted privately about it as the latter derails the discussion and causes unnecessary quasi-bickering or to put it more aptly takes away from the spirit of LF.

Edit : I misread and thought you were referring to my second post when i said “Let’s leave the moderating to Donna, guys” my mistake. Anyway, i did not mean to offend you darwinsmom in any way shape or form. I just think that moderation should really be left up to Donna and if anyone has any concerns it should be taken up with her instead of pointing out things here in the comments and causing unnecessary disruption and misunderstandings.


That said, i enjoy reading everyone’s input on the subject and have no qualms about hearing different perspectives and/or seeing them being shared here on LF. I assure you my intentions are towards trying to keep the peace rather than offending anyone. Thanks.


Just to clarify, I think it was G1S who said this wasn’t the place, not darwinsmom. Please forgive me for stepping in…I just wanted to make that clarification. And not saying that G1S was wrong for saying that. I am totally neutral. I just wanted to clarify where the comment originally came from.


dancingnancies – there are quite a few posts between your Britt Nicole “Have Your Way” lyrics – I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for that song.

Lately I’ve been consciously aware of the need to see myself through God’s eyes. I learned to see myself through my mother’s eyes: “Useless Brat”, through my brother eyes after I went NC with my family: “Rebellious Twirp” , through my father’s eyes: “Lost Cause”, through my husband’s eyes: “Short, Fat Troll.”

I’ve “decided to recover” as Donna Anderson advises and somehow my theme right now is discarding the views of all the above and learning to see myself through God’s eyes. Not that I have a clue yet – but I have a direction and the Britt Nicole song is absolutely astounding – thank you so much for posting the lyrics. They will be posted on my refrigerator door and read every day the rest of my life. Seriously. (((hugs)))



thanks for the comment kim. I agree that those last words on the cross were very poignant and notable. Love and understanding are kind of like conjoined twins. The understanding Jesus had was out of love. Nevermind he was being unjustly derided and tortured, they were without knowledge and therefore he had compassion on them. Incredibly difficult. Even in those moments. Jesus was here to show people how to live. I also think the words, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor but the sick” are important. He was here to show people how to live.

I also nod my head at your mentioning Jesus’ role as a “soothsayer/whistleblower/activist” during those times. It certainly seems he was viewed as a very big threat to those in power ( And to the religious leaders )



darwinsmom said, “But I have no desire to go into an intellectual quote debate over it here, because it’s out of place”
that’s what I was referring to.



Oh, sorry 🙁 I went way back to the beginning of the start of this particular conversation. Sorry.


No worries 🙂


Opal ((hugsback)) very pleased that the song touched you. I agree the message is exceptional. Best wishes to you on your healing journey, stay strong. You will make it, no doubt. xx

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