By | April 13, 2010 51 Comments

Problems with another boy adopted from Russia

On April 5, 2010, a 14-year-old boy from Hastings, Minnesota, carried a gun to school, waved it around in classrooms, and pointed it at several staff members, saying the words, “bang, bang.” Luckily, he had the wrong bullets in the gun, and it never fired.

Read: Charges filed in Hastings Middle School gun incident at

It turns out that the boy had been adopted from Russia. As soon as his adoptive parents brought him home, they knew the child had problems. They tried for years to help him, but were unable to. Finally they gave up their parental rights and turned him over to foster care, warning officials—in writing—that he could be violent.

Read: Mom, dad warned Dakota County: Boy is a danger, at

Link submitted by a Lovefraud reader.

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Elizabeth Conley

This kid had well qualified adoptive parents who did their best. If anyone could have succeeded, it would have been them.

My heart goes out to them. It’s wonderful to read that no one was actually shot.


It is so tragic that the warnings of former adoptive parents are not heeded. I think the officials don’t know what to do! Our former adopted son (who attacked other kids in Kindergarten with a knife while under our care) was place in a family that had a baby, though I had warned the state that he should not have any children younger or pets in the home with him. I warned the foster mother too. She had been given no information, the wrong middle name for him, all kinds of basic information was wrong. Sure enough, that foster mom called me up hysterical because the boy had attacked the baby, and then the state took the baby away and blamed her!!!!


The truth is that it takes more than being a qualified parent to succeed in raising a child like this. In my opinion.

The old saying that it takes a village to raise a child takes on new meaning. When trying to raise a child such as this. A village might still not be enough.

Adoptive parents actually sometimes have more resources available to them that the average parent. BUT these resources can only offer so much. At the end of the day the child is still asleep in your house, and bottom line your responsibility. Both to keep them safe and yourself safe and the rest of your family safe. Both adoptive parents had another child. what about the other childs safety?

NOTICE the father claimed they were afraid of this child. Because of age they are still careful to not label a child with anything but attatchment disorder.
This adoptive family had a long papertrail of what they tried to do for this child. But in the end they STILL gave him up.

We do not know exactly what the other mother did do as far as reaching to outside resources. But we do know of her decision to give him up. And we also know it disn’t take her 10 years to do so. The end result was the same in BOTH adoptions. Neither adoptive parent was able to keep these children.

If we hadn’t been able to read about everything this set of adoptive parents did to try and help this child we might be judging these parents as well for “backing out” of the adoption and now this “poor child”, after being rejected by these adoptive parents went to school with a gun……….Yadda, yadda….

I am pretty sure the other mother in question has a “story” to. We just haven’t heard it.
In defense of both of them is the fact that it isn’t natural to have FEAR of a 7 year old or a 10 year old child.

That speaks volumes. For both of these families.

Ox Drover

I think Witsend is well qualified to speak and speaks with such wisdom, though her child was not adopted, but is her own son. It is interesting that this particular case comes up right after the other case hit the news, and both children are from Russia.

Russia is well known for having one of the highest rates of alcoholism and domestic violence in the world, so it is no shock to me that there could be instances of “adult” abuse by these adoptive children, and in light of the “fact” (as mentioned on the other thread by another poster) that no Russian child is adoapted out of country unless they have “problems” or are expected to have problems.

I admire people who will knowingly take a child that is expected or known to have problems either physically and/or emotionally, but even those people sometimes reach a limit of what they are able to provide for a child. I have worked with these children (both children born into a family or adopted) who have been sent to inpatient treatment in a (usually futile) attempt to help them.

While I don’t believe that genetics is 100% of a person’s personality, I do believe that if you adopt a “pit bull” and then are suprised when you can’t keep it from attacking children, then the problem is with you, not the animal.

Unfortunately, “babies” no matter how ill-bred as far as genetics are concerned are not “puppies” and have basic human rights at least in our society. However, while protecting the child’s rights, we also need to educate our society that parents of “pit bulls,” whether they have adopted them or given birth to them, also have rights to safety from their offspring.


This piece really scares the heck out of me. From my experience, the young spath grows more and more dangerous as time goes on and he hones his skills to better accomplish his need for destruction- for example-next time the gun would fire..
As disordered personalities go, this kid is on the far end of the spectrum, no doubt scoring high on any P test. I hate to say,but after reading for example that he tried to poison his dad, this could be another serial kller if not stopped. AND what IS going to stop him?? His juvenile records will be sealed, so that all the pieces won’t be put together properly when he ages and morphs into a worse nightmare.

Ox Drover

Dear Sabrina,

You are so right on that! Even if he goes to prison for MULTIPLE felonies in many states he will be paroled again and again and again. My P son is a perfect example, and so is the Trojan Horse Psychopath who has 3 separate felonies for child molestation, plus 15 pages of other felonies and is out on parole now for having a GUN! He is a DIAGNOSED ASPD so what does that say for “law enforcement?”

That’s why I carry a gun, a cop is way too heavy and when SECONDS COUNT, help is only MINUTES away. In my case, since I live in the country about 35-45 MINUTES. I’ll take my chance to be tried by 12, rather than carried by 6.


Oxy, not sure what tried by 12 rather than carried by 6 means?? But I want to have a gun ready and don’t think I can by law…wish I lived in texas or any state that says its easy to carry a gun…protection is the rule…


Oxy…Love the ‘saying’…..
Conomo….it means…she’ll take her chances shooten someone and go in front of a jury of 12 vs. being killed and carried by 6 palbearers in a casket.

Ox Drover


A JURY has 12 members, it takes 6 people to carry a CASKET. I.e. Pall bearers. I would rather be in court telling my side of the story about why I shot someone than to be on my way to my grave.

Guns are only safe if you have sufficient training and sufficient presence of mind to make up your mind BEFORE you have to use one that you WILL pull the trigger and not hesitate or the perp will take it away from you and shove it up your nose and shoot YOU. I was raised around guns, don’t remember learning to shoot, and have no problem with using one to PROTECT MYSELF before someone can take it away from me and use it on me.

When I lived in Florida where I really couldn’t have a gun with me because I couldn’t carry it into the hospital where I worked and couldn’t leave it in my car because about 10% of the cars in the parking lot were broken into DAILY so it would have been stolen —I carried EASY OFF OVEN CLEANER in a spray can. Pure LYE with a nice big spray pattern and is very caustic and painful if you get ANY on their face at all. Sort of like battery acid. But cheap, and legal. Someone here suggested WASP spray the other day because it shoots a stream about 20 feet. Again, keep a can handy, one in your car, one by your chair and one by your bed, one in the kitchen. But ANY kind of protection, including a dog, must be something that you are PREPARED TO USE and know how to use and use with CAUTION. Just being pithed off at someone who slapped you is not enough reason to put their lights out, but waiting until someone has hit you is not always wise either, so you have to make some DECISIONS about what is “self defense” and what is “over reaction.”

We had an accidental shooting in our county a while back, a guy over 18 playing with a gun, it went off and his friend was killed. He got 5 years in the Arkansas penal farm, and I think I would rather go to Devil’s Island than prison in Arkansas. So I am always careful with a gun, and very aware that there are big penalties for using one inappropriately even if it is an accident caused by carelessness. Personally, if I had been the judge, I would have given him the maximum, not the 5 years which he will be out in 2 at the most, but still, I hope the example is not lost on some stupid people who treat guns like toys.

Ox Drover

BTW Conomo, In order to carry concealed weapon, you must pass an FBI back ground check and pass a course on legal use of weapons and fire arms, AND a shooting ability test, so it is NOT “easy” to have a CCP. By the “castle” law you can protect yourlife for the life of others, but NOT property. A while back here in Arkansas, a man shot a thief in his yard who was stealing gasoline from his car, and it was NOT self defense, because it was simply property and the thief should have been allowed to leave or held for the police.

That kind of law varies from state to state, however.


Oxy….thanks for all that info…In this district….shoot when on your property..that’s all you ar allowed…I had my license for a gun 6 years ago….so what…like you said …they can tke it from you…then what???


That is why I want a concealed weapon….concealed is the oooperative


takin in bits….Oxy…been that too…….it stillll hurts being involved with a way out but through…and it f*cing hurts…

I have tickets to the Eagles….good note…


It’s all me now???

Conomo dear, your talking rubbish again, and way too much of the F word. Is this a sign your hitting the bottle again?
Just asking in a loving way, no condemnation.
Love, and {{HUGS}} Mama gem.


MamaGem, Busted!! My apologies.. My spath’s court date was postponed from yesterday to Friday….I was looking forward to hearing he was put away for a couple of years at least….it probably won’t even happen Friday…thank you for you love and hugs….I do return them.


I understand your worried about your safety and protection from a stalking spath…..
Wouldn’t it be prudent for you to remain ‘unaltered’, so if something DID occur, you would be more likely to be in a coherent state to be able to protect yourself.
If you did own a gun, it would be unsafe AND Illegal for you to shoot a firearm while under the influence.

I also think it’s important to remain ‘unaltered’ in order to allow the authorities to view us in a more ‘believable’ light.
When we call to say someone is lurking on our property and they arrive and find us hammered…..we get dismissed as the crazy drunken woman on the ‘corner’. And NOT taken seriously…….which leads us into further danger.
Just a thought.


ErinB, You are absolutely right!! As I said a gun would not be the solution in any event. The spath would likely overpower me and use it against me anyways. I have had the police to my house many times over the past 2 1/2 years. Once was I under the influence (not like last night) It was crazy. They brought the canine unit in to track the spath and found him. By that point I had drunk a bottle of wine with my neighbour. The police couldn’t take my statement until the next day because of that. Fortunately I do have a fair bit of respect with them and they have never ignored a call for help. I appreciate your honesty and balls to call me on my behaviour. A Christian friend once said to me that my occasional over indulgence was no different than her gorging on chocolate. She would actually look hungover after a night of her indulgence.


I firmly agree with EB’s suggestions. Although many survivors have been compelled to seek medication or self-medicate through their healing processes, I found that I couldn’t make rational decisions or address the natural feelings that were required through the healing process. If I medicated myself, which I did during the last 2 years that I was still with my ex, I realized that I deadened genuine emotions and feelings, and when the meds wore off, the problems were still there, and often worse than I had imagined them to be.

As for owning a gun for “protection,” it’s something that I once believed that I needed, as well. What I didn’t realize was that the sense of protection was false – if the spath wishes to inflict more damage, they can only do so if we allow it and that doesn’t necessarily involve physical assault.

Remaining vigilant is much different than experienceing paranoia, which I battled for nearly 8 years. Paranoia became crippling for me and I realized that it had gotten out of control when I began to suspect people I didn’t even know of being spies or emissaries sent by my ex to report back. My personal approach was to contact the local mental health hotline and ask, specifically, for suggested counselors who were familiar with PSTD and sociopathy, and it was very helpful for me.

The issue of safety is always a challenge, but sound judgement and sensible approaches far outweigh the notion of a license to carry and conceal. What the root of my desire for this was, and I’ll be quite blunt, was the HOPE that the spath would show up, threaten me, and provide an opportunity to commit justifiable homicide, as prescribed by law. That desire was part of my own sickness, and I’ve been able to evolve from a victim who wanted to apply justice by any means, to a survivor who prefers life, even for the spaths. This is not to say that many spaths have done things that were so heinous that they earned the ultimate sentence, at all. But, what I’m saying is that you might want to examine the motives for this feeling of adamancy to own a weapon, take stock of how you feel you are managing your healing processes, and ask for help from a counselor or therapist that is familiar with spathy and PSTD.

We’re posting on this site because we need help to deal with what we’ve experienced. There is no shame in saying, “I’ve taken it as far as I can with the tools that I have, and I need better tools and objective guidance.” It certainly helped me.

Best regards.

Ox Drover

Dear Conomo,

I agree with EB about your drinking to deaden your pain. I think it is entirely counter-productive. I strongly suggest that you seek help with the alcohol addiction. Regardless of what your neighbor might say about it being the “same as gorging on chocolate” it is NOT the same consequence.

I don’t know if you have been to a 12 step program but would strongly suggest that you seek one out. Best wishes for your healing! God bless you.


OxDrover, you’ve offered a sound suggestion. I would caution Conomo that, if she chooses to attend a support group, to listen for a good many meetings. The reason that I say that is to avoid opening the vectors for spaths who frequent support programs. I’ve been involved with such support groups for many, many years (beginning with Alateen in the 1970’s) and there is much wisdom among many of the members, but there are also some very, very cunning spaths that will hone in on our most fragile issues and exploit them to their own ends.

My mom, God bless her, was sober for 30 years before she passed and had many encounters with spaths in her groups and actually gave money to several people who were “in trouble,” only to have those people disappear without trace.


I will tell you…..from a ‘character’ standpoint….your past is VERY IMPORTANT about being ‘believed’ today!

The ONE thing that was VERY VERY invaluable to me during my battle was… character.
I have always shown compassion in the community and towards everyone in my family……I have never lied, always taken responsibility and have no criminal record.

I couldn’t imagine crying out for help of friends who thoguht…..oh yeah….sure EB…’ve been arrested for shoplifting, have 3 DUI’s, 2 DV convictions and you LIE all the time……
and be offered any help!
It was much more helpful to me when the police were called in the past 3 years that I hadn’t ‘worn’ out my wlecome here.
This was not a house they knew….on their hot list!
I had NEVER called them prior…..and NOW I need them…..I NEED them!
They come, they have NEVER looked at me through ‘one eye’ and thoguht hmmmmmm.

It’s important for me to be taken seriously. At all times in regards to the spath.

I even felt weird taking the spath 2 & 3 to court in my small town…..I don’t want to be the ‘one’ they say…..Oh, it’s just EB….she’s always got something to complain about.

Part of why I was mortified with that call last week was….the constable has been doing a fab. job helping me hunt down spath 2 & 3…..and ex spath showing up might tip em over the edge with ‘my issues’. Oh, she’s just a drama queen…..
It IS a fine line we walk…..and I NEVER want to be discarded or minimized by my own actions!!!!
WE gotta play it right to be looked at in the light we need.
Keeping our lives as ‘clean’ as possible does wonders for our credibility and character….

Benefit of doubt is crucial!!!

For our own safety.


You’re 100% right, EB…….I was branded the loony during my court proceedings because I had agreed to take anti-depressants during the last 2 years of my marriage. I was the “crazy” and it was detrimental to me, in the long run.

Ox Drover

Dear Buttons,

AH, Yes!!! The “dry drunks”—and Boy Oh, Boy, are they toxic! Yes. Kim Frederick can tell you all about that aspect of it! She struggled with shaking those parasites loose from her flesh for quite some time!

My mother labeled me “crazy” too, because I take antidepressant medications for my PTSD from my husband’s accidental death to which I was a witness. That’s okay, she can believe what she wants and say what she wants, I’m no longer crazy since I went NC with her. Prior to that, I was crazy. LOL I’m past the point now of caring what she thinks. I spent my entire life trying to gain her approval and love and never managed to do it, so I no longer follow the “carrot” or flee the “stick”—her approval is no longer important to me. Her disapproval is no longer important to me. She is no longer important to me. I can and do validate myself. I can and do choose to stay on the road to healing and to be good to myself. Simple now, very complex THEN. LOL


Ya know buttons….it’s a fine line…..if we need em….we need em….
I was asked by my DR.
I was under care for 2 strokes, a disected carotid artery and cancer….in succession……and one of the things my dr said was…..EB your under a lot of stress….I can rx a mild anti depressent…..and I KNEW this would bite me in the ars……
I didn’t feel like I was so much depressed as stressed out…..and RIGHTDFULLY so!!
What I did have an issue with was when spath would show up at my home and walk around outside checking windowns and doors…..THIS CAUSED ANXIETY up the ying yang….so I did get an anxiety rx…..but I was on so many drugs for heart, blood thinners, radiation blah, blah…..that I was really afraid of taking things I didnt need……my other issues took priority….
I knew spath had portrayed me as a druggie (he was -NOT me)….and unstable and crazy….to my dr….and at one point my Dr. looked at me through one eye…..and I confronted him…..he didn’t know what to beleive and he even said….I believe your husband is concerned with your health….any husband would be…..
He couldn’t fathom a person going through what I was… he discounted ME for a period….
I was ADAMENT NO INFORMATION be disclosed about me to ANYONE….ANYONE.
I needed my Dr. it was LIfe or death for me…..I needed this man and he discounted me??? WHY???? BEcause of dr’s own personal beliefs and NOT any character flaw you have seen in me????

He has finally gotten it, won’t admit he did wrong (HE DID change my med. records to reflect though)….by going against HIPPA and speaking with spath…..(liability reasons)…..but I still feel jilted by him….and what I want from my dr….Is to KNOW….he has educated himslef on sociopathic behaviors and is aware. That’s it! So now my apts. are spent with me, my health….and MY educating him….so he doesn’t aid in hariming the next patient married to a sociopath trying to control her!

I know he ‘monitored’ my rx of anxiety…..and fully expected me to abuse them…..I asked for the min. dose and cut em in half…..and only took them when the spath showed up for a stalking……I probably took 15- 1/2 pills and never refilled the rx….he asked me each time I saw him… you need a refill…..I declined.

I am NOT a drunk, I am NOT a pill popper and I am NOT crazy (as portrayed)…..I was a woman inflicted with severe health issues trying to get away from an abusive relationship and protect her kids.

We must try and do it ‘sober’ without the aid of meds/drugs or alcohol……or it will bite us in the ars.

Like I said…’s a fine line…..IF they are required….IF not…>DON”T TAKE EM!


To All Concerned,

I attended AA with my first husband to support him when I was 22. I worked through the 12 steps as a self reflection exercise.

I ended up leaving because he would not stop his excessive drinking and all the problems that came with it. Financial, emotional, infidelities, etc…

I was 30 when I called my second husband and myself on our regular drinking — not excessive — we had fallen into the habit of having a few beer every night after a “hard day” and not be being very productive. Basically made us lazy.

We would still have the occasional party. As that relationship began to fall apart, I would drown my sorrows — every few months would be the frequency. He would use these occasions to blame me for the break down of the relationship.

So I stopped drinking completely for four years at age 36. The relationship DID NOT IMPROVE. He simply amped up the volume and manipulated situations to make me look like a crazy bitch until I couldn’t take any more and finally moved out.

Once out I took up drinking socially once again. I admit in the last 10 years my drinking to numb the pain has escalated to make me feel guilty and some friends have called me on it while others sympathize with my method.

So, once again I appreciate and understand your concerns. I question this habit as well. I am not thoroughly convinced that I need to quite altogether at this time. Maybe I am in denial maybe I just need to get to a better head space.

all the best

signing out now.


ah, predators and 12 step meetings. the man reason i left a very supportive meeting years ago.

there are processes within 12 step groups that both help and hinder the process of revealing predators. it really dpends on the mix of people in the group – i took my concerns to a regional level. the very preadators stood up in that meeting and gave long eloquent speeches about how they would protect us all from predators…phfft!

i started to warn the newbies. and if you know anything about 12 step programs and ‘annonymity’ you will know that that action would be problematice for the group and the very @#$% complient 12 stepper that i was.

i may have save a few yound women some grief. yay for me. but ultimately i left – i didn’t feel safe in a room with exploiters and deniers. boo for me and my recovery.

yay for me and my integrity.


Until alcohol is recognized as a problem in your life, you will not stop.
Drinking or drugs do not fix problems or make them go away.

It’s about being honest….and HONEST with ourselves.
You owe us no explanation, or anyone else.
It’s YOUR life, and YOUR issues.

I will tell you, in your postings….I see it immediately. It’s not hidden. Your NOT the same poster when your sober.

In my ‘real’ life…..I have friends who I refuse to be around when they are drinking….this is a boundary. My best GF is a drinker…..and every time we go to lunch she say’s……are we getting a bottle….I say NO. She says…well I will without you.
I get my peligrino. A few months ago, she was at my home and left drunk….I was NOT okay with this….and very angry at her.
She was going through a divorce, has custody of her kids and is a pilot……SHE has so much to lose by getting in an accident drunk, hurting herself or others….and I see her decisions as pathetic.
Her kids are disgusted by her drinking and she doesn’t see it this way. She is in denial.
She knows she has a problem…and has for years……but has excluded her kids from this problem, in her mind.

It discounted her in her divorce……if she had gotten help, it would have ended differently.
Even though her husband slept with prostitues and brought home numerous STD’s…..HER drinking was the focus….because his STD’s and sexual escapades….didn’t affect the kids….IT WAS HER DRINING.

WE just don’t grasp how our actions affect others, and affect others opinions of us…..
I am blatently honest with my GF….but I see others NOT being honest with her and smoothing over or ignore (same as most deal with a spath)….and just continue to party with her…..
I WILL NOT….and I will no longer allow her in my home drinking….because I will not live with the fear of her driving or making stupid decisions…leaving my home.

Drinking is either a lifelong issue or not. If you once felt it an issue and again question it now…..I’d look deeper.

Good luck!!!


why would anyone adopt a child in the first place?

dream world where everything works out happily? given the circumstances adoptive parents would want to wake up and get real and stop blaming the children they adopt.

Ox Drover

Dear Bullet proof,

Why adopt? People love kids want one or more and can’t have or feel that there are kids who need homes more than the world needs another child to feed, so adopt instead of “having” one.

I don’t understand why you think these adoptive parents are “Blaming the children?” when it turns out badly and they are UNable (not unwilling, but UN-ABLE) to meet the needs of these disordered or damaged children who have become dangerous. It seems to me the adoptive parents are saying “I cannot do this, I need help.” That doesn’t seem to me to Be “blaming” behavior. Just the truth. I cannot do this alone.


Holy cow…….I was adopted, and I thank God that I had the loving parents that I did! I know nothing of my birth parents, and have never felt the need to find out.

My adopted mother had 5 pregnancies with one live birth, three miscarriages, and one stillborn. My folks had the opportunity to adopt an infant, and they did.

My childhood wasn’t great, but I was a holy terror when I was about 13. I was angry, cruel, and acted out well enough to throw my folks into a tizzy. I had to learn the hard way that my behavior was not going to be tolerated and that I had to accept responsibility for the things that I chose to do.

Adoptive parents are only human, and I can tell you from my personal experience that the love, support, encouragement, and boundaries that my parents set forth weren’t squandered. Had my folks threw in the towel, I could not have blamed them, one iota. I love my parents so much that it’s difficult to express, even though they’ve both passed. I thank God that I had my parents and that my parents had me, and I miss them more than I can say.


Oxy and Buttons

Okay. total respect to you both and I hear you. I am a birth mother who “lost” “gave” her baby up for adoption in a country where is as a “disgrace” to have a child outside of wed lock. I regret it. A terrible mistake, I was 21 I am 50 now, and I re united with my feisty son who came looking for me at age 16, I was 37 we did meet. His adoptive parents are everything I hoped they would be (loving, kind, intelligent, in a couple devoted to each other) my son however was a handful, he acted out, got into troube, dropped out of school etc.

We reunited and after what….10, 12 years of re-uniting we have a close relationship. (he came to live with me for2 years with the blessing of his great adoptive parents, but went back to them in the end) and that’s okay, they are brilliant and that'[s why I gave him up, so that he could find a loving scenario and not the hell I was living through….

suppose what I am saying is , I never stopped thinking of him, loving him or wanting to be in his life….we are very close no and the bond never died. ….and just know that the baby needs its mom no matter what kind of a insecure wreck she is, and it’s worth finding out the truth and keeping the birth mother in the picture if you really love your adopted child.

Sorry didnt expect to come out with this. I do not doubt the love you have to give for children that are not your own, just realise no the complexity of adoption and the never endng curiosity of where you came from, and the huge love even a birth mother who was pressured into handing over her child at too young an age to realise what was happening… I still loved my son but would not see him until he was at least 16 (he came looking immediately, thats because of the bond we already had) and I would do anything for him to day, and love him with all my heart.

Ox Drover

Dear Buttons,

My stepfather adopted me when I was a toddler, and I am grateful to him. He was a good, kind, caring man, and I really didn’t appreciat just how much so until the last 18 months of his life. My egg donor devalued me, emotionally abused me (though at the time I didn’t realize that was what it was) but he was always supportive, and even though he has been gone 5 years now, I TREASURE the memories of his kindness and wisdom and his unconditional love. I firmly believe that his love was what gave me strength long after his death to endure the CHAOS of my relationship with my P son, and my enabling and emotionally abusive egg donor.

I am so glad that you had these wonderful parents! BTW I think all 13 yr olds are “hell on wheels,” but that’s okay, most of them do grow out of it with a good support system! Glad you did too!


{{{{{{{BULLETPROOF}}}}}}}} gentle, loving hugs for you – it took courage to let your child go and to trust. And, the courage that you have today is so powerful. That love is a beautiful thing for everyone involved. God bless you, my dear.


Maybe my adopted parents are seeing this report and thinking….DANG….we had an out!

Given what’s gone on in my ‘family’…..I’d be curious to at least meet my bio family…..
But I hate to have ANY sort of fantasy……so I don’t persue it.
No room for ‘failure’ in my world currently!

Bullet: My heart goes out to you…..I honestly can’t imagine your experience and feelings. XXOO


Holy shitballs……how many of us survivors were adopted, I wonder? A friend of mine that went in pursuit of finding her birthmother joined a site for adopted adults. It seems that the majority of them were, at some point, victims of spaths and it is theorized that it’s related to “abandonment issues,” etc. Just a strange parallel, I think….whew…

Bulletproof….I really mean that you have courage and it wasn’t a “mistake” to make the decision that you did. It was the best option, at the time.

Ox Drover

Dear Bulletproof,

(((((Hugs))))) You were pressured into giving up your child, but I am glad that you were able to successfully reunite with him. I am glad that he had good parents who also loved him.

Being raised away from my P-father, I did not know what he was and was ALWAYS curious about him, because he was part of me, or I was part of him. I did know his family except his P-mother who had died before I was born, and I loved them and am still part of that family, even after the family itself had “disowned” my P-sperm donor. They recognized that he is TOXIC many years ago, but EMBRACED ME. That meant a lot and STILL DOES to me to be part of that wonderful family even though he was no longer embraced by that family. They are wonderful and kind people.

When he wanted to smear me, they told him NO! in a loud and united voice. That was wonderful validation for me.

My adoptive son D is the son of a man who was “adopted out” and didn’t even know he was adopted until he was over 40 years old and his older adoptive sisters pressured his UN-loving mother into telling him. He found and reconnected with his sibs at about age 50. We still don’t know the entire story but we think his “adoptive father” was also the biological father and the adoptive mother openly did not even LIKE him from the time he was little. He in turn “acted out” from probably a combination of genetics and environment with a toxic adoptive mother. He in turn,, passed this violent environment on to my adoptive son D who still has some problems with being around violence or loud arguments.

However, I am glad that my son D was able to rebond with his biological family, and his father has been able to heal from his own rage and anger at his adoptive mother. So my adoptive son D has TWO families, two mothers, two fathers, and is a good man and I am proud of him. He is a better man than either of my biological sons. He is totally supportive of me. I coluldn’t ask for a better son, and I bless God for sending him to me to Replace in my heart the sons I “lost” because of their behavior.

We ARE our genetics in some ways, and we ARE our environment as well, but “family” is who you love and who loves you. God bless you Bulletproof! (((Hugs))))



Thanks for that beautiful validation…wow, Yes You are right about that, I totally trusted that my baby COULD BE LOVED BY TOTAL RANDOM STRANGERS and it was worth the gamble because my situation was dysfunctional at best and abusive at worst.

My son has met his real grandmother, grandfather, all my sisters and brother, a few aunts and uncles but most of all he met his BIRTH FATHER (not a P, but a complete narcissitic pain in the ass) he has since came to the same conclusion as myself about him and that is after much “trying” he decided nah dont want to see him again….I didnt say a thing to sway his decision but I am not surprised….!

After 10 years where I was re uniting with my son I decided Ineeded to date again and that is where the P came in.


My love for my son no matter where he as never died. I didnt have to go looking for him because he came very strongly towards me aged 16 which was considered very young at the time, but he was so persuasive they contacted me and told me my son wanted a letter or something…I was so ready to hear that , I was delighted and wrote to him, spoke on the phone and then finally met him (in the adoption agency I gave him away to) I will never forget the moment He walked into the room (where I was waiting) and our eyes locked together for the first time in so long!!!! he had the most beautiful eyes I have ever seen, i ran to him and just opened my arms, he fell into me and just sobbed….it was beautiful. I made it my business to get to know his adoptive family because I was so curious to know what they were like!!! they are so great. We are good friends. I actually like them as people and totally agree with their outlook on things…so my gamble paid off!!!!

thank god and everything thankable



Thank you for the hugs and I appreciate what you say. I am in an upset frame of mind to night, its okay I put it down to grief, Talk to you soon and thanks, your words of support mean so much, and back at you…hugs, love and appreciation xx


My mother used to tell me growing up…..If you ever want to find your birth mother, I will support you and I want to be there when you meet her.

All these years I thought that was so kind of her… supportive etc….
In the past few years, i realized…..she wanted to CONTROL the ‘reunion’…..and make sure I didn’t say anything bad about her.
She has kept a file on me… whole life….I call it the I hate EB file…..
There isn’t any of the cards I gave her….professing my love as a daughter……or any of my stellar report cards from school… achievement certificates etc….
ONLY negative…..notes she’s written about me….when I was dating the spath as a teen….times/dates I was late to come home…..medical stuff…..
I looked through it a few years ago….(shoulda snagged it) and I was mortified at what she kept… was like she was keeping anything on me and her notes to use against me at some point in my life?
HEEELLLLOOOOO I was a teenager.
My father (according to my aunt) has never forgiven me for my 6 months of cocaine use at 18 years old. The nights he couldn’t sleep with worry……
Holy moly…..I’m 42… long do ya wanta hold a grudge….
It was a short 6 months…..and funny enough…..know where i got the cocaine? THE SPATH! I’d like to know the grudge he holds on him……NONE!

I just think it’s weird that my parents keep this ‘file’……Not sure what they are thinking they are gonna use it for?

Prior to now….due to my percieved support from my mother….I would have included her in the event…..NOW…I wouldn’t even tell her about it!!!

It is my fantasy to find my BM, and have a wonderful reunion and be accepted into and be able to experience a ‘family’ type environment…..holidays etc….(she had 6 siblings)
BUT….I KNOW THIS MAY NOT BE THE CASE…..with my liuck….her family is just as screwed up as my own!
And by that contrast……I don’t need to disturb things that don’t need disturbing!!!

I’m glad your son and you have been able to reunite happily and he was raised with the intent you had hoped for!!
What a happy ending!!!! Or beginning……

Ox Drover

EB, you devil! Yea 24 years is a nice round number to hold a grudge! LOL

There is this old biddie we know (yea another one besides me!) and she was at my house one day having a meal and her son and his wife were also here and she started RAGGING seriously on him about smoking grass when he was 15 (he was 50 at the time) I watched him MELT DOWN like a hot candle under her hateful abusive mouth, and I stopped her right there and suggested that if she wanted to rag on her son for what he did 35 years before, she should leave my house to do it. YOu would have thought Ihit her in the face with a bucket of cold water! It is actually a wonder I didn’t, ohhhhh pith me off! She thought she could get away with it because she thought I wouldn’t confront her–WRONG-O!!!!

My egg donor still holds a grude for a lie I told her when I was 15, so, you are just getting started baby! Lots more time for the grudge to fester! LOL

BTW my egg donor has a lot of the letters I sent to P-son complaining about how she treated me—NEVER PUT ANYTHING IN WRITING ABOUT YOUR ABUSE!!!! Which she will I am sure use against me at some time or other, and has already done so once. I wish I had snagged it while I had the chance too. Oh, well, 20/20 hindsight! But that’s okay too, I’ve got a file on HER!

What makes it so funny (in retrospect) is that they are usually so BIG on “forgiveness” and “Christian Charity” etc. PUKE!

kim frederick

EB,Just to put a positive spin on an otherwise “bummer,” She taught you how to document, and now you’re teaching us.. 🙂


Dear All,

I am Russian and I have an aunt who works in an orphanage in Russia. All I have to say is that it’s really not a good idea to adopt an orphan from Russia. The thing is that the overwhelming majority of abandoned kids have some sort of antisocial (most often alcoholic) parents. Of course, it does sometimes happen that both parents die of illness or in an accident. Or, for example, the parents are young students who can’t look after a baby. But even these circumstances are still very suspicious if the child has living grandparents. In the Russian culture, it is NOT socially acceptable to abandon one’s grandchildren and to make them available for adoption. Usually, even the poorest and the sickest of grandparents make every possible effort to keep the child and to raise them if mom and dad are dead or dysfunctional. Moreover, the kids who do come from more or less healthy backgrounds and seem to be OK, will be offered to local childless couples and not to a single mum in the US.

This is how things are, and I should have considered all this BEFORE I dated a P who actually told me about her alcoholic, antisocial mother and her unfortunate adoptive parents. She was the sickest person I ever met, she messed up my life, and I am NEVER again dating ANYONE whose natural parents are not what I would consider normal. And of course I would NEVER adopt a kid unless I knew the parents personally.


Kimmie…..I laughed at that one….
It’s soooo true…..
I’m a documenter! You oughta see my office! And I throw nothing out.
I told you during my divorce, I came across boxs under the stairs that contained spaths bank records back to the 80’s…..INCLUDING the years I purchased the rental property, he claimed was his. I had PROOF he NEVER paid a dime on it!!!! 2nd or anything…..HA!
I have letters his brother wrote him about questioning his lack of response of happiness as being a first time parent….questioning him if he was gay…etc….

Now I’m gonna turn into a hoarder…..scared to hell to ever throw anything out….just in case!!!

Thanks for the laugh…..

Another reminder that EVERYTHING happens for a reason!!!!!!

Ox Drover

Dear Stannik,

Thank you for your contribution to LoveFraud and WELCOME here to a healing place! You are right about knowing what you are getting into in an adoption being something that you should KNOW, Rather than finding out later that you have “bought into” a pit bulldog of a child.

There is no guarentee with children ever, but at least you hopefully know who the parents are, just like with a puppy, if you know the parents you probably have some idea how the dog should turn out. No guarentees but some IDEA AT LEAST.

Thanks for contributing to LF and hope it helps you to get your feet back under yourself from your experience with the psychopath! again, Welcome!



I really hear you when you say:

And of course I would NEVER adopt a kid unless I knew the parents personally.

You are very wise to have this attitude, when you adopt a child you also adopt all the psychic attachments, biological genetic components and you may as well adopt the parents because they are in the genetic make up of the child and that NEVER GOES AWAY …

one of the fantastic characteristics of my sons adoptive parents was the total acceptance of me as his original mother, and the delight they felt at the prospect I could make a positive difference to his life (which was chaotic) He did settle as if calmed by the presence of his mother,he said no one could calm him like I could, in that specific way that stopped him from a criminal career. I think meeting me was turmoil for him, but it interrupted a bad path, and I swear, I think he felt the love he was craving and settled into the most beautiful human being you could meet.

I love his adoptive parents as people, (more than my own parents!!) they are more loving and open and real. …but unless all come to gether there is piningand longing and I say RE-UNITE if you can because it’s the greatest feeling in the world to connect with not only your baby again but with the beautiful people you entrusted them with….full circle. awesome. not without heart ache.



Thanks, and I am hearing your situation, wow, it’s just so sad. you say:

It is my fantasy to find my BM, and have a wonderful reunion and be accepted into and be able to experience a ’family’ type environment”..holidays etc”.(she had 6 siblings)
BUT”.I KNOW THIS MAY NOT BE THE CASE”..with my liuck”.her family is just as screwed up as my own!
And by that contrast—I don’t need to disturb things that don’t need disturbing!!!

yes you know of course her family will be screwd up, otherwise she would possibly have NEVER GIVEN YOU UP, and probably thinks of you and loves you just because you were inside her for 9 months and so much happens in that time.

I was sent to a “convent” where they asked me to change my name, I refused…my parents “sent me there” because of the shame. I pretended to everyone I was on a holiday. Yes I KNow….sick…I promise I would never do it now…it was the most traumatic event of my life, and there was nothing more I wanted to do but keep my gorgeous baby boy….but a week later I was without him.#

Words cannot express the blackness I went into…..and my baby son parallelled my distress by contracting a life threatening illness that was treated just in time…I only found out when I met him 16 years later that he could have died…would they have told me????

Twice Betrayed

I think most of you know my story on how genetics won out regarding my kids, so I won’t labor the point. I know years ago, when younger and full of many fluffy thoughts, and world altering stamina, I believed differently. I bought a home and raised my two older children in the same neighborhood from the ages of 1 and 3 through three and two years of college. I was a stay at home mom, thanks to my generous father’s estate holdings, so my home was the main local gathering place, especially for latch key kids and ones left alone. I fed/watered/made kool aid, wiped noses picked up to/from school [some were left all night many times] and half raised, at one time or another, most of the kids in that neighborhood. Now, I don’t say this to toot my horn, but to make the point of knowing these kids well. Years passed and my daughter went to her 10 year reunion and asked me to come along, since she thought I would enjoy seeing many of the kids, which I did. However…..and you know where this is leading….MOST of them had turned out like one of their parents in particular. It was overwhelming! The seriously neglected kids born to the alcoholics across the street had indeed given the world several more. And on and on it goes.

In my X husband’s family there were 3 males and 1 female. The father was a full fledged P, mother a really nice, kind lady. Guess how many demonstrate serious mental issues? Yes, every one.


Speaking as an adoptee, and also an adoptive mom (one of whom is a SPATH), I will say, why adopt? Because adoption is LOVE my friends. It is a HUGE risk, but without risk there is no reward. There are over 143,000,000 orphans in the world who will go to bed, with no one to call mom and dad. Are all of them SPATHS? nope…but the usual percentage of the population who are SPATHS are certainly represented in their numbers, biologically that is, there are also a large number of older children who have been through incredible trauma, and may exhibit SPATH charactoristics, in different ways, and phases in their lives, but will not ultimately bear out a sociopathic diagnosis into adulthood. I have 11 children by adoption. 1 of whom, I believe is a true SPATH. He is 16 years old now, and sadly housed in adult jail. I had to make the impossible decision 2 years ago to terminate my parental rights to him, despite having a complete mothers love for him. He was in a residential treatment center in another state at the time, and of course the ultimate goal is always to return home. I could tell he was not “getting better” as SPATHS classically do not, (bear in mind he had had 3 different full psych evals diagnosing conduct disorder, and only because he was not 18, did he not get an anti-social personality disorder diagnosis) I had younger children at home, and since he had already attempted to perpetrate on one of the daughters, there was NO WAY, I could safely bring him home. He ended up going to a brother in law and sister in law, who were sure it was my poor parenting that was causing his “issues”. He lasted 8 months there, until he was in detention once again, and they refused to take him back. Following his next foster placement, he ran away, committed 8 felonies, and then was remanded to adult court, and now sits in solitary confinement (for his own safety) and will be there until at least October, while all of his charges are addressed, and he has trials. I still visit him each week, and am his biggest cheerleader. I love him to bits, but know that he can never live with me again. I cry each time on the way home from seeing him. I am not going to give a laundry list of what he was like at home, but I’m sure over time, bits and pieces will come out. Do I regret adopting him? Not for a second. I do not see the goal of my life being a comfortable existence. I want to do good things, maybe I will die trying. I also know though, that I can never, ever knowingly risk someone elses safety, who is vulnerable. I was GREATLY judged when I terminated my parental rights. I was seen to be a horrible failure. Thankfully though, I had so much documentation of help I had tried to access for him., years of therapy, medical intervention,respite, ect. ect. and ultimately it was the reports of the psychologists who said that the safety of others in house would be at high risk, were he to return home. Otherwise, I would have faced CPS charges of abandonment and been placed on Central Registry. I am thankful that his caseworker allows me to visit with him and remain a part of his life. My other adopted children do not face challenges any where near the magnitude of this son’s stuggles. They are more they “typical” kids…if we let every “horror” story of those like the gun wielding, fire setting, abusiive adoptive children color every adoption story, our world would be a very sad place indeed. I actually work as a social worker in adoption recruitment. I can do so, in light of, and in spite of, my own personal story with this particular son. I do so for the children who wait, who DESERVE a family to love them, and to have someone think they are the best thing since sliced bread. They do not deserve to be judged based upon anothers actions, yet so many more, now, because of this story, and ones like it, will wait.

Ox Drover

Dear Roodyzoo,

Thank you so much for your post. Adopting 11 children does show where your compassionate heart is.

I am glad that you recognize what your son is though, and that he will never change. Having a biological psychopath who is in prison for murder, I can relate to many of your challenges. Mine didn’t so a lot of symptoms til puberty and then morphed into a monster, by 20 he was is prison for the second time and that time for murder. I too tried to visit and continue to interact with him. Eventually, he tried to have me murdered.

I am at least glad that the authorities listened to you when you gave up your parental rights. There is a blogger on here nnow whose natural son is 17 and she has been unable to get much more than a diagnosis on him, but can get no HELP and the courts, schools, etc. are simply “the valley of locked doors” for her. She has had to come to her own conclusion and get by the best she cann in FEAR of this son.

I realize what you say about there being millions of children who need parents and not all are psychopaths. I’m glad you were able to save 10 of them, even having the one psychopath in the group. I am also glad that you were able to get him outside of your house so he could not harm the others, but I am sure the other children also paid a price for having this “brother” in their home as well.

I eventually distanced myself from my son after trying to excuse him and fall for his cries of “I’m sorry” when I realized finally, that he is not sorry and he is dangerous. Even then, he still sends his exconvict friends to attempt to kill me, and the rest of his family for inheritence.

I’ve taken care of foster kids, and adopted one who is a wonderful young man, as well as my two biological sons, but the psychopaths can’t be saved. I gave up my “parental FEELINGS” because he never had any love for me or the rest of the family, only manipulation.

I’m glad you are here though, it is a good place with people who do empathize and understand. We don’t all agree but it is good to have someone who has dealt with this type of thing. God bless and Welcome.

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