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Redemption for a serial liar?

Stephen Glass was once the darling of Washington journalism—until it was discovered that his stories were laced with fabricated quotes and anecdotes. Now, Glass wants to be a lawyer, but for five years, the California Bar Association has refused to admit him.

So can a serial liar stop lying? This intriguing story describes Glass’s upbringing—it sure looks like his parents could have affected him. The story also describes people who believe he was truly remorseful and has changed his ways. What do you think?

Read Trust me, an infamous serial liar says, on CNN.com.

Posted in: Media sociopaths

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115 Comments on "Redemption for a serial liar?"

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as was pointed out, i am amazed that integrity is a requisite for admission to the bar.

let’s see… i now have an attorney who makes unrequested and unauthorized changes to my divorce papers, charges me for doing so, charges me for consultation on those changes, and charges me yet again when i require those unrequested/unauthorized changes to be removed.

funny what they are concerned with, isn’t it. or rather… what ARE they concerned with? b/c i can’t imagine…. !!!???!!!

Maybe I’m gullible, but I believe him!

At first I didn’t, but as I read the entire article, it rang of sincerity.

Thanks Donna, this article is a really good one. It’s very revealing, especially about the way his parents behaved. When he was fired from his job for lying, they said it was a good opportunity for him to go to medical school. It seems like everything is always about them and what they want.

Nah, I don’t believe him….sorry Charlie, no certificate to practice law. I think that the whole “I’m sorry” bit is just that, self serving.

The woman who said she “takes in strays” and doesn’t believe in “throwing people away” is obviously a Pollyanna when it comes to dealing with psychopaths.

Okay, he had rotten parents “”The family members’ interactions with each other precluded dissent by the children.” to quote the article, but you know, those lies were NOT “MISTAKES” — he deliberately did them, over and over and over, they were CHOICES TO BE DISHONEST. WHY he chose to be dishonest is beside the point. I think most of us want to “please” our parents at some point in our lives, even the worst of parents. Maybe even some psychopaths want to please their parents, to get approval from them, but I don’t think a person with a TRACK RECORD of “serial lying” is a good bet to be an honest attorney.

There is a reason there are “morals clauses” in the bar, that is why they don’t take convicted criminals. Frankly I think they should use the PCL-R to assess who can gain a license to practice lots of things, and law is one of them. Elected office is another one.

omg Skylar, You believea man who’s practiced years of duplicity is reformed b/c he SOUNDS sincere? I’m with Oxy. Don’t believe him at all. But I don’t think believing him matters at all.

My point was that to require a morals clause of honesty is pure hypocrisy with lawyers. HOw incredibly silly to have such an expectation of HONESTY! I mean, who could write such a moral clause that any first year law student wouldn’t be able to write a way around it. Attorneys parse words ALMOST better than my spath husband.

Easy example? Look to Mr. depends-on-the-meaning-of-the-word-is for is definition of SEX!

He likes to say “very, very, very!”

I don’t know…the hard thing is that he’s clearly very, very, very smart. At least, that’s what I’m inclined to think if he passed two bar exams. Or at least he’s very, very, very well-trained/educated. This could also mean he’s just very, very, very good now at deceiving. I dunno. I’m hesitant to believe a pathological liar, but from what I understand, someone can be a pathological liar and not be a spath, so maybe there is hope for someone like that? What exactly WERE his lies anyways? How HUGE were they?

Katy, your lawyer is unreal. I mean, I believe you, but it just sounds impossible. How can your lawyer seriously do that and not notice that it’s totally ridiculous!

Panther, he was a JOURNALIST and he wrote as FACTS stories and quotes that he MADE UP, TOTAL LIES….and reported it as “news.” THAT’s pretty “big” I think….as far as “lies being big or small.” To me a “white lie” is the answer to this question, “Do these pants make my butt look big?” The PROPER ANSWER IS “Not at all!” but it’s a WHITE LIE….but a SMART way to answer the question! LOL

Oh, BTW as far as Katy’s lawyer doing that, YEP, that’s the way they operate that is how the “meter runs” when they are “working.” LOL

He lied to gain attention and be the “golden boy”at work. He didn’t steal or murder. He was not a spath or a parasite. He didn’t emotionally abuse women.

He was outed in such a public way that if anything, he will have an extreme aversion to lying from now on. It’s like touching a hot stove, he’s not likely to even want to touch a cold one in the future.

And he got the biggest lesson of all when, after he was caught, his parents STILL didn’t change their tune. I think he knows now that he can lie from here to eternity and they will NEVER see him as anything more than an extension of themselves.

I think he should be done lying now, since it would serve no purpose even if he succeeded to con people. His parents just don’t care and they never will.

Well, Ox, I think those are major lies then if he was totally making up quotes and “facts” that weren’t true. (so, when can we sue Fox News?….) I guess I was thinking perhaps he said things out of context or misquoted people by cutting out some of the words in statements to make it seem like someone had said something else. I figured maybe he’s cited studies without being fully integral to the study. I didn’t understand that he has flat out invented and fabricated fully false information and reported it as news. It seems to me that he might even be a scapegoat. Not saying he’s innocent at all, but I don’t think what he did is that uncommon.

“History is the propaganda of the victors”–Ernst Toller.

Hmmm, trust me I’m a reformed LIAR.
Now that he’s been exposed he wants another bite at the apple.
Nah. Leopards n spots. Liars n swindlers..tum ti tum, time to run.
Maybe I’ve just become a cynic in me old age but I wouldn’t trust him as far as I could chuck him. As we say here

Strongwoman and Panther, I do agree with you both and I love the Toller quote, Panther “History is the propaganda of the victors” is definitely true! The history books are written by the winners.

Well, sort of any way. That dictator who just died in North Korea of course controlled the media there and Time Magazine had a list of 10 things about him that we probably didn’t know. One was (and I just happened to know this one) he said on his first ever round of golf, he scored in the 30s and had 11 holes-in-one!!! (yea, I believe that! NOT!!!) the best one though was that the N. Korea media said that he (GET THIS! Prepare yourself) they said he DID NOT DEFECATE!!!! LOL ROTFLMAO Now that has got to be some propaganda campaign! Proves though that some pathological liars and dictators just TRULY DON’T GET IT AT ALL!

I honestly do not think that the guy would score 30 or above on the PCL-R so he probably isn’t going to be “professionally diagnosed” as a psychopath, that said, though, a liar is a liar is a liar, and WHY he was a serial liar is immaterial to me, I would never trust him to be honest. He may have learned his lesson, and I hope for his sake that he has, but you know, there are way too many people who are passing the bar who don’t have a reputation as a serial liar, that I ask “what is the UP side of having this guy be an attorney?” I don’t see any UP side of it for the profession. I don’t doubt that he will be approved and “rehabilitated” but that goes back to the “anyone can be rehabilitated if you just love them enough, give them enough chances.”

Journalism is predicated on honesty, and law is predicated on honesty, and if a journalist or an attorney is dishonest it is “worse” than if another profession is dishonest. Honesty is the ONLY thing a journalist or an attorney has to “sell.” Without honesty what have they got? NOTHING, as the only thing they have is their word. What is the word of a liar worth? NOTHING.

Attorneys as a profession have enough liars and con men to ruin their reputation…they don’t need any more that are KNOWN LIARS. Proven liars. Reformed or not.

Unfortunately, though, almost all politicians are lawyers, so maybe he should just run for office, seems like he has the QUALIFICATIONS. bwa bwa bwwaaaa ha ha aha ha

Maybe he could do some voluntary work…..in a third world country. Talking the talk doesn’t wash really does it. And blaming abusive parents. Sigh, …take responsibility and be a grown up. Billy Liar haha

As a scapegoat who was treated by my husbnad with the same hatred as if I were his mother,(he had the hate/love/hate thing with mommy), I learned FIRSTHAND the idea that just b/c they LEARN they don’t get approval doesn’t mean they don’t retain their unmet need to degrade and vent their anger and contempt on the ‘little people’ of the world. People usually figure out by the time they are done with university and first jobs etc that parents who withhold approval are NEVER going to approve.

This man did not have a “Good” reason to lie (?? lying is a virtue???). He carried on years of duping ALL the people ALL the time; that deceit didn’t START out of a need to accomplish. That kind of duplicity is a red flag.

If all he wanted was to gain mommy’s or daddy’s approval, he is by all accounts so well accomplished that he could have done all that WITHOUT lying. So, accomplishment excuse is MOOT. If anything, the lying at such a late age and for so long a time period is obvious proof of contempt and THAT contempt steps into spath behavior.

Katy,
I saw that your post was addressed to me earlier. Why did you modify it?
Do you want me to answer your questions?

.

Actually, Glass would make a PERFECT lawyer. He is a expert liar . . just like the rest of them. The oath they take is a manipulation tactic to make US (who are not lawyers), lose our guard & trust them. It is expressly designed to make us falsely believe that they have integrity.

You don’t ask LIARS to take an oath! You RESEARCH them! Put their license on probation for several years, conditional upon interviews with their CLIENTS to determine whether they have integrity etc.

If we REPLACED all “non-violent” criminals that are in jail . . . BY the most successful practicing lawyers, CEO’s, and politicians . . . We’d have MORE CRIMINALS in jail.
(Hey . . . but that’s just me!)

If theres one thing about psychopaths I am sure I know its the nature of the lying . To tell a lie is one thing . To tell a lot of lies with details thats something else . Its all in the details , those iddy biddy details that most of us get fooled by because we could not imagine bothering to lie with such detail . Its because of all the details of the lies that would confirm to me that the mans a psychopath . Sure there are a lot of people who haved fooled the bar association . To let this guy become a lawyer would be like letting a pedophile run a kindergarden .

I can see the argument , other psychopaths get to be lawyers , why not me . Main reason , you got caught dopey . And since psychopaths cannot change there is no chance he should be able to practice law . End of story

Quest, good point, like letting a pedophile run a kindergarden!!!! Sort of like Sandusky running a charity for boys needing mentors. LOL

Nobody misses the water until the well runs dry.

But, funny thing about water:
It always finds it’s level. Ever notice that? 🙂

I have had several people in my life (before I GOT it), say to me . . . “The problem is YOU don’t trust me!”
What I realized is . . . that was THEIR problem! They, being P/S/N/A see everything in terms of themselves, and when I didn’t trust their lies & manipulations . . . THEIR (not THE) problem was that I didn’t trust them . .
So my advice is . . if hear some version of “the problem is you don’t trust me” or “why don’t you trust me” or “you’ve got to trust me”. . . be VERY SUSPICIOUS!

I haven’t read the comments yet, because I wanted to stay close to my intuitive feelings and why to the article on Glass’ reform…

It bothers me that there’s a whole article written to thump it into my head that
a) he’s reformed
b) he’s a super-great guy
c) he ALWAYS tells the truth now
d) that we shouldn’t judge
e) that we should give people a second chance…

And I’m thinking… Ya know, if he was a reformed man and his confabulations (storytelling lies and fabrications very much like we know from spaths) were but something to please others, then there’s no need to write about it, let alone beat me senseless with it. It would just ‘be’.

His girlfriend’s arguments about why he should be trusted sounds like myself when I decided to make a go for it with my ex-spath, and invest time and money for tickets and living with me. It was my pitch sale talk to do away with any misgivings from friends. More, it’s a defense set up before anyone can criticise. I don’t remember having the need to praise my partners before him into the sky as great persons. They WERE good people, and I knew that others would pick up on them being good. No doubts or critique would come from others on them for being who they were, not even by those who didn’t click with them. IMO his girlfriend is giving a similar sales’ pitch. And she wouldn’t be giving a sales’ pitch, if she didn’t inherently feel that there is a truth to the misgivings. She has them too, but she’s ignoring them, and re-convincing herself with the sales’ pitch.

So, I conclude because of this that he’s not reformed at all. He’s just wearing a mask. This time the ‘truth’ mask on top of the ‘I’m not a dangerous guy… I’m vegetarian and get sick at the sight of blood.’

Another red flag to me are the ‘pity’ responses by the people sticking up for him. They all tell a story of where he looked so miserable they felt instant pity and compassion, and acted and made decisions based on that pity feeling they felt for him. I ask you all… you’ve all known how it feels to be completely miserable, feeling like a loser, failure and depressed. What was the general response to this heartfelt mysery? Maybe you have a friend who’ll listen to you once in a while, non judgemetally. At best you’ll get “Move on”, “Put it behind you,”… At worst you’ll have people recognizing you are in a weaker metal state and defenceless and kick the dog. Have you known for people to respond with pity to your mysery: to act and decide to go the extra mile to help you back on your feet? The answer is an overall NO!

So to me, their strong emotional response on the poor-me image they saw of hom is HUGE red flag to me. Only manipulative people wearing masks and able to push the buttons in others can provoke such a response into others.

So, both the sales’ pitches and their immediate strong pity-him responses and actions based on it, plus the fully fabricated lied articles (unecessary lies) when he could just have well written good but REAL articles make me think “spathic”. It’s all talk, the “right” arguments are made… but nowhere does it feel genuine at all.

SARAH!!!! GREAT!!! Point!!!!

When someone feels that you don’t trust them, the problem is THEM not you!

There’s an old joke about what a ____(used car salesman or whatever professional liar you want to insert in the blank) says before they SCREW YOU GOOD—-truuuuuust me!!!!!! LOL And yea, that is sure right!

Again, I’m so grateful to Donna for posting this because I didn’t pay much attention to the Glass story when it happened and all this debate has finally made me research it.

The link above, as Darwinsmom noted, is rather biased for Glass.
I read it and thought, “he made up some stories, got caught, end of story.” That doesn’t describe a spath.

This http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/archive/1998/09/bissinger199809 does describe a spath.

He didn’t just write fiction. He set up props, he slandered people, he MANIPULATED EMOTIONS EXPERTLY. People loved him. His “tag line” was “are you mad at me.” He used these words constantly even before he began his fictional stories. Those words were meant to soften people toward him. IT WAS THE PITY PLOY. He kept people loving him by making them feel sorry for this poor self-effacing, confidence-lacking, yet brilliant young man. (pass the bucket) This is EXACTLY what my spath did.

None of this was written in the initial article.

As far as his ability for redemption…. it’s sad, but no, I don’t see it. It’s possible that he will stop lying, but he will never understand the REASON why he shouldn’t lie. The only reason he understands is that he may get caught. Why do I think this? The reviews of his autobiographical novel indicate that he is still portraying himself as the sympathetic character. Everyone was so MEAN to him!!

I feel bad for him because when God was passing out empathy, he slept in and missed out. From what I understand, there is a window of opportunity for developing compassion during the formative years.

Katy,
I never said I was perfect or had all the answers. My inability to perceive him as a spath JUST FROM THE ARTICLE DONNA LINKED, could be because of my lack of boundaries or it could be because I prefer to withhold judgement until I have more data. It’s hard for me to accurately judge my own judgement process. But I will say that this is why I study the red flags. One flag is not enough to call someone a spath. I think it’s best to have a few.

As I explained to Milo, I will share what I’ve learned and I do appreciate everyone’s help and sharing what they know because I need help too.

So Katy, you didn’t have to go agro on me! 🙂
But in the end, it helped because I went researching and found the evidence I needed to see things more clearly. So thanks!

Oh, goodness! That’s what the OW in my office who duped me used to say…”Are you mad at me?” BITCH!!!

Louise, that “are you mad at me?” question is really a LOSE/LOSE situation, if you say “No” then everyone pretends they didn’t do anything bad, and if you say “yes” then YOU HAVE TO DEFEND YOURSELF ABOUT BEING MAD AT THEM…After all, they didn’t mean to make you mad or they wouldn’t have asked “are you mad at me” so heads you lose, tails, they win.

Oh, Louise! that’s harsh.
Read the article. It’s extremely good. Vanity Fair magazine seems to have some very talented writers. They investigate very well. They did the piece on the French Aristocrats and the Svengali.

Oxy:

Yep, exactly! And I also always thought that question was asked due to a guilty conscience. After all, if they didn’t do anything for me to be mad about, why are they even asking? It’s because they KNOW they are doing something wrong so they are asking to see if the person has caught on to them yet…haha…the joke is on them in the end.

skylar:

Sorry, but I don’t think it’s harsh at all. She deserves every bit of vileness I could shoot her way. She purposefully and knowingly duped me all the while acting like she loved me as a friend, etc. I love you though 🙂

Louise,

Never be sorry for how you feel, it’s your right.

What I meant is, it’s harsh that you had to be triggered by what I wrote. So maybe reading how others perceived him might be cathartic. You might get past it, by going through it.

I know that every time I get a new revelation about the evil I experienced, it’s a trigger. But then, it helps me move past it by adding to my wisdom.

((hugs))

Skylar
Just to let you know:
You made assumptions about my motives and/or my thought process, then acted as if your assumptions were correct… which they weren’t.
ps admit am curious, who is agro?

Katy,
explain what you mean about my assumptions. I can’t know what you are talking about unless you clearly state it.

And agro means aggressive.

skylar:

Thank you! I did read the article and it’s very good.

You are right about the triggers. They seem to pop up out of nowhere, but each time…working through them helps in the healing.

Skylar
Your post to me above is defensive. Which means you had to assume I aimed an attack on you. Calling me agro seems to affirm. That’s not where I’m coming from at all, 180 in fact from my intent or thinking.

Lately your posts make me feel sad. Think it’s time for me to take a time out.

Katy,
I don’t want you to feel sad.

Did you see my post a while back about using flower essences?
There is one that I used. It’s called …. let me look it up… oh, it’s Indian Pipe… It’s a very rare and strange looking flower I found on my property. I researched it. it makes you feel love from the universe – supposedly. I bought the tincture. Maybe it helped, it’s hard to say. Maybe it was placebo.

I didn’t think my post was defensive. Your post to me where you said I used to have good sense but have gone off my band wagon, is inaccurate. I have the same perspective that I’ve always had. But I feel like you put me on a pedestal which I don’t like (fear of heights) and then knocked me down from it.

No more pedestals for me. Been there, done that. I have no more sense than anyone else. And I make as many mistakes as anyone else.

no worries skylar,
i have never put anyone on a pedestal, not even my spath. i will/did not start with you.
whatever i did to make you think that about me was not an intentional act on my part.

Skylar – pass the pipe darlin..I need to feel some love..

here it is Hens,
http://www.choosingvoluntarysimplicity.com/indian-pipe-monotropa-uniflora/
this flower has no chloraphyl, it’s parasitical on a tree fungus..

That is a beautiful flower. Wow. It reminds me of the wild lily that grows in the woods where I am from. I love it.

Sky,

I hadn’t had a chance to read Donna’s entire article on that journalist–turned-wanna-be-lawyer, but I did see your post saying in your first opinion he wasn’t a spath.

When I was first starting to uncover my relationSHIT, I was using google to search phrases like this “lying is a symptom of what personality disorder?”. “Personality disorder that includes lying”. The ridiculous lies my spath made were his hallmark, his calling card if you will.

Some time ago, I sent Donna a question, and asked her if there was any way we could get Steve or Dr. Leedom or somebody with the right clinical training to answer my question.

My question is this:

Is pathological lying a symptom of ANY OTHER DISORDER aside from sociopathy?

I would like to have an answer to this question.

That way, when we see lying, we’ll know whether it’s generally accurate to make that sort of assumption.

Athena

I have asked the counselors I am associated with, on numerous occasions, IF these people are aware of what they are doing and do it intentionally? I mean, SOME people are just ‘prone’ to mishaps in their life; know what I mean?

And all of the counselors I have spoken with (and there has been many) has concurred for me that yes, they ARE aware and because their entire being has been created on webs and deceptions, that becomes the way THEY LIVE. That becomes their ‘life creed’ so to speak. They LIKE who they are and don’t want to change. They see no problem with being the way they are.

I have found that LYING is LYING no matter who you are or where you come from – but with a psychopath, lying is almost a ‘creed’. They have told so many, they can’t keep them straight but they do. THAT is the chilling part.

I believe we are ALL a little on the twisted side. I think that our being human beings gave us an inherent nature to be just a little on the naughty side — however, the point of sociopathy begins is when it has turned rabid and it used to perpetually harm, endanger, bully and manipulate their way into getting from people what they want and will stop at nothing.

I would highly recommend you to all watch: “Fishead-The Movie”. You can google it and I am sure you will find it. It will give you a little edge on understanding a lot of that which has been ‘whispered’ but never made aware to all of us until we were BLESSED to find this site.

I am intrigued as to how and/or why they continue to keep coming back. Even after they have been told, with absolutely no misunderstanding, TO STOP IT. That is what amazes me. I have been the object of an obsession for ten years now. A lot of people would think that might be ‘flattering’ and for a long time it was…..until the webs started unraveling…and I got sucked farther and farther down that rabbit hole of insanity and madness. A person can’t stay around that for long….you try to make sense of it, understand it…then you suddenly find out that the more you try the more ugly it becomes.

Time to back out, lick our wounds and move on.
Things will never be the way they once were.

How do you trust someone who has tried to purposely harm you and then walks away laughing about it? Hm? I am not that big of a person. Forgiveness is GODS job, not mine. Although I won’t and haven’t allowed resentment and hatred to overtake my life nor my soul, I completely intend on meaning every word I have said to “IT” and all associated ‘minions’…

The eyes have a hard time lying….
Blinking, blinking, blinking…like a Hollywood sign….
I knew it was a red flag when I saw it and I should have listened to myself. INTUITION. ::RED FLAG:: ::RED FLAG::

We should never allow our hearts to lie to us.
That is their justification and their defense…..
It was “US” who went along with everything we bitch about in the first place and then suddenly we no longer find it acceptable? THAT is the hallmark of a psychopath.

I have a very self sufficient life and lifestyle.
What makes people leech onto other people and suck them dry? Not just of financial assets, but what about the emotional, physical and psychological?

I have been solid NC for almost 8 months now. Not one peep. And, trust me, some of the bullshit I have seen fly by my face…it has been real difficult to keep quiet; to sit back and shut up…REAL HARD. But, you know – I think I have finally learned how to look at things differently now. Oh, I still very much mean every single word I ever said to it. I make no idle threats.

What I mean is: ON THE INSIDE of myself.
I realize now and understand and accept the fact that “IT” is a sick person and that’s probably part of why it hurts me so deeply and so tremendously – his illness is so noticeable and at times very difficult to deal with, LIVE, UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL, I don’t wish him anything bad…I just want the pain to stop now. I want it to heal over, scar and move on.

“IT” is having a most difficult time accepting that I am just gone. And, I am not coming back. And it keeps reaching back to me, out of the haze of nightmares…and I keep making one more step forward. There is no coming back any more. I am taking a stand and it’s not the easiest one, by far – but it is, at this point, one necessary for my survival. I refuse to allow this to take my life from me. Especially after a greater force than myself has graciously given it back to me.

KNOW YOUR VALUE AND YOUR WORTH.
Not in a haughty way but in a reality sort of way and always stay true to that person you are.

Peace and smiles for the day you all…

Dupey Doo Duh

Athena,
the lies are a huge red flag, but the article linked on Donna’s blog, made it seem like he didn’t lie outside of the written stories. It gave the impression that he took “poetic license”, got caught and that’s it.

I’m not sure if people who are not spaths can be pathological liars. When I first started researching spaths, I came across some psych blogs where people wrote in and one girl admitted that she lied all the time and couldn’t stop. It usually comes from feelings of inferiority. I got that impression from my spath as well.

It seems like someone who feels so bad about themselves that they have to lie constantly, is going to have other issues as well. In other words, I think lying is a symptom of a disorder and not a disorder in itself.

Just trying to imagine what it would be like to need to lie all the time, makes me feel really bad for my spath. I wish I had known then, what I know now.

skylar: even if we had known then what we know now, it may have made a difference for us, but it doesn’t with them. I have tried to reach mine for almost ten years now and the only thing it got me was death threats and attempts and non stop stalking.

I don’t feel bad for them at all because they are making the choices. They have choices just like we do. THEY are making their choices. We all have to be responsible for ourselves in this life. Unlike them, most of us have to be accountable for our actions.

I agree that lying is a symptom and not a disorder itself.
It’s just a thread in the make up of a psychopath…

I think they are so opportunistic and narcissistic, it doesn’t even have anything to do with them feeling badly about themselves as much as it does the drive to control and dominate. They tell the stories whichever way benefits them the most.

I am out of “ITS” head now. I am inside MY OWN head now.
He can just go away….

FOREVER.
He just isn’t ‘getting it’ that the ‘spell’ has been broken…

duped,
it would not have changed him, but yes it would have changed my perception of everything I experienced. Actually, if I had had any idea of what lying meant, I would have run. He lied so much that I went to the library to research it. (We didn’t have internet in the early 80’s)

I found the book, “People of the Lie” but I didn’t understand it. The book talked about evil. This made no sense to me because I thought evil would be easily recognizable. It’s not, evil is sneaky.

Oh I so completely understand you skylar. They gave LYING a whole new definition with their non stop crap. Even if we had recognized it was lying, in the first place, they change the story so much, it’s hard to believe what is real and what isn’t. They are very masterful with their lies and manipulations.

But, yes, lying is a ‘red flag’….in our kindnesses, we have overlooked much about our specific relationships because we felt it was loving and kind and understanding to be that way. We were raised believing that you give goodness and get goodness. With them, that whole attitude is askew. To them: kindnesses and goodness are meant to be manipulated and used for their own gain. Taking our kindnesses for weakness and monopolizing on them as much as possible and then when you get onto them, they threaten to harm you physically…I know the whole routine and I am just done with the insanity.

I was masterfully duped for almost ten years.
I think “IT” deserves an Academy Award for his fine performance. Had me completely duped. Totally.

Right, evil is very sneaky…
I wonder if sometimes THEY even understand themselves and I rather think not…

Stay safe and happy skylar xxoo
Happy Holidays to you.

Sky, here’s an article with a short explanation that makes a differece between sociopathic lying and a compulsive liar

http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/lying-and-deception/confronting-a-partner/compulsive-lying/types-of-liars.html

Sky, EVIL is not easily recognized….take the story of Eve and the serpent in the Bible…Satan LIED to Eve….told her that God had said she couldn’t eat of any fruit of the garden, she said, “NO, that’s not true, we can NOT eat of only that one tree, the Knowledge of Good and Evil” The Satan (after letting her score that point) said “well, God just wants to keep the BEST for himself, because he knows if you eat that one, you’ll be like a GOD YOURSELF”

Eve looked at the tree and the fruit and it was nice looking so she took some and ate it and gave it to her husband. THEN THEIR EYES WERE OPENED. They did know the difference between good and evil, and she knew she had done EVIL. The serpent [email protected] He had harmed mankind and had them driven out of paradise on earth. He brought death and childbirth pain to mankind….b ut those evils were hidden in “pretty fruit”

Now even if you don’t believe this story in the Bible is literal truth, it is very good as a metaphor.

If Satan had offered Eve something ugly and nasty she would probably not have tried it, but because he cloaked what he offered in something good for the eye she bought the whole bill of goods.

We all I think were duped by the BEAUTIFUL LOVE that the psychopaths promised us! But when we took a few bites of it, we found out that we eventually GOT THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, and the taste was BITTER!

Hi

Just to let you know that since my conversations with some of you lovely people over the last week I have had many lightbulb moments.

Special thanks to

Sky==for her telling me of the spaths obsession with symbols–I wish I knew more about this.

Aussiegirl ==for opening my mind to the phrase bodyguards. I have two strapping nephews now that I never had when I was with him. I feel safer knowing this

Oxy–for her adament wisdom in stressing NO CONTACT.

And duped–I so hear you.

Many thanks again

Love and Peace
xxx

Darwinsmom,
Thanks for the link. Interesting. I think my exspath was both, compulsive liar and spath.

He would lie about anything. He just knee jerks into lying. Even obvious lies. It was embarrassing to me, so I just stopped wanting to go out with him.

Dr. Gail Saltz is an expert on liars and I saw her in an interview.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/4072816/ns/today-today_health/t/why-people-lie-how-tell-if-they-are/#.TvJDe_LN7To

She said that very young children will lie just to experience the power that their words have on others. I think that’s why spaths will lie about anything and everything. It’s just a mini-powertrip with each lie, even if there is nothing to gain.

This makes sense in that it correlates with the infantile emotional state of the spath. So far, I’ve not found too many things about spaths that don’t correspond to this infantile way of being.

Hi littlewhite horse!

darwins mom

Thanks for the link. It was interesting. I wonder, though.
That’s the first time I saw it spelled out that way, delineated in that way. Compulsive liars lie out of habit, and Sociopathic liars lie to manipulate. That’s what it says, essentially.

I don’t know if I am having a mental block, or what. But I can’t imagine somebody lying who ISNT trying to manipulate. So it follows that all liars would be sociopathic.

Maybe I am being too simplistic.

Athena

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