By | August 3, 2011 54 Comments

Report blasts failings in Jaycee Dugard case

In probably the most horrific failure to supervise sex offenders, Phillip Garrido was released from prison in 1988. He had been sentenced to 50 years for a brutal kidnapping and rape, yet managed to convince psychiatrists and prison officials that he was “reformed.” On June 10, 1991, he abducted Jaycee Lee Dugard and kept her captive for 18 years.

The El Dorado County District Attorney just released a scathing report of the failures of the criminal justice system, especially an over-reliance on psychiatry. Here is an excerpt:

Law enforcement failed to see Phillip Garrido for what and who he truly is ”¦ evil. In part, this failure was based upon law enforcement’s over-reliance upon the psychiatric profession to predict future dangerousness. Common sense would tell you that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. For some unknown reason, psychiatry in the criminal justice system relies far too little on past behavior and far too often on the statements from the criminal who have a vested interest and motive in presenting themselves in a better light. This problem is exacerbated even more in the prison setting, where criminals know they are being watched and know that they can get paroled even sooner if they comply with prison rules. The problem is further compounded by the fact that a prisoner’s institutional adjustment and psychiatric evaluations are given greater weight than the underlying commitment offense. Thus, the major problem with the use of psychiatry in the prison system is that the prisoners will act differently in prison because they don’t have the freedom to rape and murder and destroy lives like they did on the outside of prison walls. Criminals then use psychiatry to manipulate the criminal justice system.

Read the 24-page report.

Complete report, including photos and exhibits.


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Ox Drover

I read this complete report and you know what Donna, THANKS a million there is a bunch of GREAT STUFF in here that I think I will be able to use in my P-son’s NEXT up coming parole hearing! LOL It is always good to put the parole board on notice that the CRIME that the inmate committed should be CONSIDERED in the parole hearing and not just what the INMATE SAYS…I loved how the psychologist (the idiot!) said that Philip was such an ACTIVE JEHOVAH’s WITNESS! LOL Yea, I bet he was, my P son is a very active member of the prison ministry activities as well. LOL ROTFLMAO Yea, he’s a really active “christian”


Yeah, Garrido is one of the faithful alright.

That’s why I am SOOOOOoooo impressed by reports of Son of Sam finding God. All those people who look at how he is reformed, a Christain in prison, where he is FORCED to follow rules. Sickens me that Berkowitz has fans, one of which is the director of Houston MAJOR CRIMES VICTIMS office.


I read some of the report. I admit I can not handle reading any more. I did not know of the other rape and her miracle rescue by an officer who did do his job. And that victim was so strong that she reported his showing up at her JOB after his release but the officer DISMISSED HER AS HYSTERICAL.

This bothers me b/c when my husband and his family nearly murdered me, that is exactly how I was portrayed by the officer who took my report. That I was an hysterical estranged wife making rash accusations. The officer wrote in my report that I was unstable and a liar b/c he saw NO bruises (I was wearing a full length armed shirt and long pants and boots.) I was not hit in the face, just everywhere else. DISMISSED. Justice? Hell. Most of us NEVER GET HEARD. LF was the FIRST TIME I was heard and believed. That’s very sad and pathetic but see, this is how society acts and why these spaths who live JUST THIS SIDE OF THE LAW get away with so much. The justice system HELPS THEM.

I can only cry and feel TERRIBLE about all the other Jaycee Duggards out there.

Ox Drover

Yea, Donna, I am already preparing the next parole hearing stuff as I will no longer have direct access to any more of his letters etc, and no way to know what trouble he has gotten into inside prison during the time between the last parole hearing and this up coming one. I find it hard to believe he won’t get into any trouble, but he HAS gone years without getting CAUGHT smuggling in contraband or whatever. This report correctly points to CONSIDERING THE PAST CRIMES as well as the SERIOUSNESS OF THE CRIME THEY ARE IN THERE FOR currently.

The BASIC police report on the crime itself (about 6 pages) detailing witness reports of my son Patrick telling them BEFORE he killed the girl that HE INTENDED TO KILL HER showing that this was PREMEDITATED MURDER not just spur of the moment or something done without thinking, he PLANNED THIS MURDER several days in advance. The witness reports also show that he carried it out in a COLD BLOODED MANNER, luring her to a remote spot, then calling her name and as she turned to face him, shooting her twice in the head. Then him returning to the girl’s apartment, taking her jewelry and purse to her roommate and Giving them to the roommate and TELLING THE ROOMMATE that he had killed her. Then he went home and went to bed, putting the murder weapon under his mattress.

No matter how long my son Patrick remains in prison, he will be DANGEROUS when he gets out. Dangerous to me, but dangerous to others as well. ANYTHING I can show to the parole board that might reach them, if nothing else, in such a way that they will be AFRAID to release him and have THEIR NAMES brought up in such a report as this.


From the report:

It was later learned that Philip Garrido would wear a fake penis and use warm Mountain Dew to fool the urine tests…

So the lab analysts couldn’t tell the difference between Mountain Dew and a bottle of piss? Either they’re incompetent too, or… well, I hate to think what that says about Mountain Dew!


It doesn’t say if anyone ever administered a PCL-R to this guy. I’m betting they didn’t.


Redwald, yes it did. He scored a three. That was AFTER Jaycee Duggard.

Ox Drover

Redwald, the way the tests are done they are not really all that accurate I don’t think. I used to have to do “pre employment” Urine tests for a factory near my clinic and I learned a great many ways folks could fake the test.

I have also heard about a case where a catheter was inserted into a 2 year old child’s bladder to get “clean urine” which was then used to fake a test. The contraptions they use to hold this urine or substitute up near the body to keep it body temperature are unreal!

I even know of a nurse who used urine out of a bedfast patient’s urinary collection bag and inserted it into her own bladder so the urine would be drug free….since most of these patients like that have a CHRONIC urinary tract infection, the THOUGHT of that makes me cringe and believe me I have a strong “stomach” for most things…that one gets to me. People who want to do drugs WILL do drugs. PERIOD. NO Matter how closely they are monitored or tested, they will manage to do drugs.


Katy, did it say they administered the PCL-R to Garrido? Or was it just the Static-99R? (Unfortunately the report is not searchable.) I saw on page 5 that he scored a 3 on the Static-99R, but that’s a different test. The Static-99R is supposed to assess the likelihood of a sex offender reoffending—but I can’t say I’m very impressed with it! I think the scoring is too imprecise, and there are too many factors the test fails to take into account. These include the severity of past offenses.

In addition, if it was in June when they tested Garrido, he got a whopping MINUS THREE taken off his score just for being sixty years old at the time! I don’t care if he is sixty. I still wouldn’t trust him around anybody’s daughter!


It’s likely I was wrong and the R test that I read was that Static-99R with a score of 3. I did jump around a lot when I was reading it. I have a childhood history of incest/rape so I confess that I feel horrible more strongly than normal people and as a consequence I try to avoid reading details of crimes. They leave me feeling helpless b/c there is NOTHING I can do, just like being that kid again…

I did re-read the second to the last sentence pg 1, low/mod risk assessment even AFTER he had imprisoned, raped, and forced two children on an 11 yr old girl. The law does not protect people. The law covers its ass.

I do remember reading PCL-R words somewhere. Just can’t find it since I jumped around so much…


God this makes me sick, so sick.
I shouldn’t be reading this, it’s devasting me.

Phillip Garrido was arrested and charged with the rape of a 14 year old in 1972(in 1976 as part of their investigation into the Katie Callowy-Hall rape, FBI officials obtained a copy of the 1972 Antioch Rape Case, which was dropped because Phillip Garrido’s attorney told the victim he would make her out to be a “whore” and a “slut” in court, in front of her parents)

OMG, there is nothing to fear but fear itself. spaths have no fear and that’s how they beat us. to death.

We MUST fight with everything we have. We MUST help each other do this. They don’t feel anything, so they don’t feel fear. That’s what they use against us. They play chicken because they know they can win. They don’t care about anything except the drama they cause.

But they do have ONE thing they care about: their facade.
We have to use everything in our power to destroy the facade. THAT scares them to death. Many will commit suicide when they know that the facade is crumbling. PLAY CHICKEN AND WIN.

Ox Drover

Nah that was NOT the PCL-R, it was the scale they use to determine sex offenders risk in the community, but he was a 3 which is LOW RISK FOR RE-OFFENSE….which is STUPID since he had so MANY “HOT SIGNS” LIKE REPEATED RAPE, etc.

Unfortunately, Sky, FEW psychopaths do commit suicide….though a very few do, but most have no SHAME so there is no reason to commit suicide as they NEVER (in their minds) lose….my P son still views himself as the CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE and as a WINNER because it is always someone else that keeps his perfect plans from working. He never loses confidence that HE WILL ULTIMATELY WIN, that he IS WINNING.

That gives me a WTF??? feeling….how can anyone who is such a loser, the ULTIMATE LOSER, feel like he is a “winner”? I still don’t know the answer to that except DENIAL and DELUSION, and God knows I’ve done enough denial and lived in delusion long enough I should understand that. LOL I kept thinking he had really changed, I denied what I SAW and HEARD…but though truth is painful at first, it is like draining a boil, it is the only way to get the nastiness out of our souls so that we can heal.

I don’t play CHICKEN, I play KEEPERS as we used to say in marbles….I can’t afford to “chicken” out, so I have to be committed to winning.

BTW that was NOT NICE of you to BRAG about it being so cool where you are you have to use the heat at night, Sky. Me and Henry is suffering down here in Southern Hell! LOL (((Hugs))))


LOL! I know it is mean of me. I have the heater on right now. 😀
It’s extra cool where I am because it’s in a forest with lots of shade trees. It’s been so cool and rainy this “summer” that when the solstice came, I said to BF, “Today is the solstice.” and he replied, “Which one?”

When I read that 24 page report (most of it) I get so triggered because it just goes on and on with all the parole violations DAILY positive drug tests, contacting the prior rape victim, every manner of violation and the federal parole officer just lets him go on his merry way!!! WTF?! I can only conclude that the parole officer is a MOFO SPATH and Garrido promised him pictures of his next victim or perhaps a video of the rape? I’m sure of it. Why else would he let the litany of offenses go?

Regarding playing CHICKEN with the spath:
I spoke with a woman who encountered a spath in her workplace. Constant love bombing and emails at work enticed her into an affair, though she was married. Then he turned it around and accused her of harassment! She was summoned to HR and accused of all kinds of falsehoods. Luckily she had KEPT all the emails and she presented them. She said that this THREW THEM BOTH UNDER THE BUS. (I guess romantic relations are discouraged at her work) So they both lost their jobs. When he saw her later, he smiled and said, “well played.” And it was, because the spaths expect us to be afraid and keep secrets and bear the responsibility and be the scapegoats. When we refuse, they lose and that’s how you play chicken with a spath and win.


Since you are a good reader, I bet you read the whole thing. I don’t want to read it again trying to find the PLC-R reference that may not even be there. As I said, I jumped around b/c when I felt overwhelmed, I changed pages. So please, can I accept your assurances the 3 scale I read was most likely the Static99-R?

I did notice my feelings of helplessness, this guy was a major flag waving spath in a state that remembers Polly Klaas, and his supervision was so nonchalant. As a kid, I accepted I had no power against child rapists/abusers and looked forward to my 18th when I could leave my spath family and all my decisions, right or wrong, would be mine.

This list of incompetence leaves me wondering what to do as an adult. It’s my thought that there were LOTS more children taken/raped and possibly murdered (left somewhere to die when he was done with his rape rampage), esp when he read the report of Eliz Smart. Yet, look at all he did and only one short stretch back in?

I don’t like this helpless feeling. Any suggestions?


I love your analogy. I think I am borrowing all your good lines. I don’t play chicken either. I play keeps/I just never worded it that way. But Keeps is what I told my husband when we started dating, that I was not his match if he needed women to compete for him.

katy, who is also rendering but seems I have a huge reservoir just behind me.

Ox Drover

KatyDid, you are welcome to my one-liners, I frequently borrow from others, but these just happened to be my OWN (for a change) I used to be really good at one line come backs, but my husband was GREAT and P-son, believe it or not was FANTASTIC! I can still laugh over some of his GREAT one liners. Most were cruel but still funny!

I understand about the HELPLESS FEELINGs WE GET WHEN WE CONTEMPLATE THE HUGE NUMBER OF injustices in this world. The time I spent in Africa and south America made me have a particular feeling in my heart for hungry children….this famine going on in the horn of Africa right now and the photographs coming out of there are RIPPING MY GUT OUT….and I feel so helpless to do anything. I am raging inside, I want to go in there and BOMB those political nut jobs that are stopping the aid groups from bringing in food and stopping the people from getting to the aid that is there. HOW CAN SOMEONE, ANYONE, EVEN A NAZI ACT LIKE THIS,, TO DEPRIVE PEOPLE FROM FOOD AND WATER because the “other side” might get the credit?????

I want to NUKE those people for doing that….but I can’t. And I can’t get food to those children, and I can’t send enough money to make any difference, and frankly I’m not sure which aid group I could trust to use the money I could give wisely and actually for AID not a bribe to some government official, or to buy a private jet for their CEO….so HELPLESS….THAT’S HOW I FEEL.

I’ve wanted to help every down trodden dog or child since I was a kid and SAW hunger in my own community in children, then REALLY saw LOTS OF HUNGER in the 3rd world countries I visited. But I am learning to turn off “empathy” that I cannot do anything about the situation. Reading the book “The science of Evil on Empathy and the origins of cruelty” recently taught me something about empathy that I felt but didn’t really consciously know, and that is that we CAN turn it off with our logical minds, especially when we can not do anything to stop the suffering that we are feeling the empathy about. This BROAD empathy for victims about which we can do nothing is counter productive for us, and sends us into depression and despair. I’m learning to use my empathy more appropriately and focus it on those situations where I CAN do something and then respond appropriately.

LIke the Barbara Oakley book I reviewed that talks about Pathological altruism where the person feels sorry for the starving dog and takes it in, and then another and then another and then another until they are unable to care for any of the dogs they take in and all the dogs starve at their house and someone calls the police and the police and the ASPCA comes out and arrests them for animal cruelty. Their EMPATHY got side tracked…. Taking in one dog would have been REASONABLE EMPATHY or maybe even two, but taking in 100 wasn’t reasonable empathy.

Sometimes, a reasonable empathy means that you put an animal to “sleep” because it is suffering and there is no REASONABLE way to help the animal. Sometimes it means that you take a patient off of life support without feeling guilty in either case. (I’m NOT suggesting that a person be “put out of their misery” by active means)

One of the WORST cases of misplaced empathy I can think of was the add-on to some Senate bill that made it illegal for horses to be slaughered by the USDA for meat in 2007. Up to that time about 100,000 EXCESS horses were killed each year in the US and the meat shipped mainly over seas for human food. This bill prevented the USDA from certifying the meat for HUMAN consumption, so no more horses could be economically processed for slaughter in a humane way (the USDA mandates HUMANE SLAUGHTER) so NOW that it is not legal to process horse meat for humans in the US–they are shipped to MEXICO by truck, crammed in, scared, and usually kicked or injured by other horses during the trip, and SLAUGHTERED IN MEXICO by LESS THAN HUMANE MEANS…..and the numbers are rising by tens of thousands per year as more and more horses are not able to be cared for by their owners. Many other people simply turn their horses loose on the high ways or into the national forests to fend for themselves. So an act that the senator thought was “kind” to prevent the slaughter of horses for food, ACTUALLY resulted in UNTOLD SUFFERING of hundreds of thousands of horses and continues today without a single humane slaughter plant for horses in the US…not everyone is as fortunate as I am in having a place to “dispose” of an animal without spending $500 to $1,000 for a dozer to bury it.

Ox Drover

Here’s an article for you—-shows you why SEX OFFENDERS who have committed serious harm should NEVER BE RELEASED.


Here’s another woman, killed by a P. Her father says the cops could have warned them, because they knew.

Ox Drover

The father of the woman wants to get a notification of anyone who has a DV complaint against someone WARNED that they have previous DV convictions.

BTW there is a DV site on the internet here in the US (I can’t find the link right this second) for reporting DV CONVICTIONS by state and by name. (*PUBLIC RECORD SO IS LEGAL HERE IN US) UK’s laws are way different than ours and in my mind WORSE THAN OURS.


“Father Knows Best”

I’m inclined to doubt whether a law disclosing people’s criminal history would have done Clare Wood any good. She didn’t take any notice of her father’s advice, after all.

This is one of those infuriatingly FRUSTRATING stories that make me want to grit my teeth. It’s a story where a spouse—a woman in this case—ABANDONS a perfectly good partner, throws away a functional marriage—then goes and throws HERSELF away on some worthless abuser. She either condemns herself to a life of misery, or now and then (as in this case) ends up dead. It’s rank stupidity.

One person I feel sorry for in this story is someone the article didn’t even trouble to dignify with a name. Naturally I also feel sorry for Clare’s stepfather, Michael Brown, though I hope he won’t blame himself for this tragedy. He “wonders what would have happened if he had acted on his sixth sense—would Clare still be alive?” Acted to do WHAT, exactly? I suspect the only way Michael could have prevented this from happening was to find this guy Appleton and bash his skull with something good and heavy BEFORE he could commit murder. And that’s just not reasonable.

Michael BELIEVES that “if [Clare] had known what lay in George Appleton’s past she’d have been out of that relationship like a shot.” That’s precisely what I beg to doubt. Michael had ALREADY told Clare “I don’t like your choice” after he first met Appleton. But she was already infatuated with the guy by then. Then when she told her father she was going to marry him, Michael said “I couldn’t believe it. I’ve never been one to hide my emotions and, boy, did I tell her.” That didn’t stop her either. I’m not at all sure that a view of Appleton’s past record would have been any more effective. She could easily have rationalized it away. It wasn’t until she was forced to discover for HERSELF that Appleton had been trolling for other women that she realized Father Knows Best after all. And by then it was too late. Appleton was already fixated on her and wouldn’t leave her alone.

But I must feel sorry for her unnamed 12-year-old daughter, who is now left motherless—though admittedly she hadn’t seen so much of her mother since she was four years old. I must wonder how all this will affect the 12-year-old. She’s had a poor example set for her by a mother who abandoned both her and her father, then carried on with a string of undesirable men, of whom Appleton was only the last. Will she learn the lesson that that’s a good way to get yourself killed? It would be nice to think the little girl could salvage that much wisdom out of this tragedy.

Sadly, human nature often dictates otherwise. Illogical as it is, children are often prone to emulate the example of a parent, whether it’s for better or for worse. I’m reminded of an example given by Eric Berne in that old classic, What do you say after you say hello? The Psychology of Human Destiny:

Ginnie was the oldest of eleven children, and her mother, Nanny, complained that the last five were unwanted. The naive assumption would be that Ginnie would be programed to have six children, but that was not so. She was programed to have eleven children, of whom the last five were unwanted. In that way she would be able to play “There I Go Again,” “Harried,” and “Frigid Woman” in her later years, just as her mother did.

So opinions will differ whether the little girl will be VERY discriminating in her later choice of men—or whether she’ll follow her mother’s ill-starred example and have relationship woes of her own. Fortunately she does have other assets: not just her grandfather Michael Brown, but her own father as well. If she chooses a man more like them perhaps she won’t go far wrong.

And I must feel especially sorry for her equally unnamed father, Clare’s ex-husband, whom Michael Brown described as “an ideal son-in-law.” He was not only abandoned by his wife, most likely through no fault of his own (she just “grew restless”), but was also left to cope with being a single father. Mind you, I do think that was the better arrangement, since the guy was more stable than his wife. And since Clare, unlike most mothers, seems to have left their daughter with Dad out of choice, maybe she wasn’t all that maternal. But to cap it all, it was Dad who had the horrifying experience of checking on his ex-wife’s welfare only to find her murdered and her body burned to a cinder. That must have been extremely traumatic. I hope the poor guy finds himself a nice new wife (if he hasn’t already) who will also be a kind stepmother to his little daughter.

As for Clare herself, what she desperately needed, but never got, was THERAPY to get her head straight. While anybody MIGHT find themselves with a pathological partner by sheer bad luck, it’s obvious that Clare was running after a string of them. The story refers to at least two “unsuccessful relationships” she had prior to Appleton. And my guess is that she left her marriage because she was having an affair, though somebody was too discreet to say so. But it sounds as if these relationships were not JUST “unsuccessful.” Since Clare wrote that she was looking for a “relatively sane man” in her area, that suggests she kept gravitating toward relatively INSANE men. Sadly, George Appleton turned out to be the most insane of the lot. That’s why it’s a pity she didn’t stick with the sane man she already had: her husband.

There’s a complex of possible reasons why some people like Clare keep ending up with bad partners. One element in that complex can be an excessive urge to “rescue” people. That could very well have played a part here, since George Appleton was an obvious loser—“an occasional fairground worker, who was on the dole”—who most likely came across as in need of “rescuing.” Appleton could also have been a borderline rather than a psychopath, presenting as emotionally “needy.” The greatest fear of that type is being abandoned, which does drive some of them to violence, including lethal violence—and suicide. At least that saved everyone else the problem of having to deal with Appleton afterwards.

But it doesn’t matter what he was, when the dynamic that stands out in this story is Clare’s unhealthy craving for “excitement.” She left a good man and sought out bad ones, however unwittingly. She sounds like one of those people who get bored with normal life and are addicted to drama. It makes no difference whether Appleton was a psychopath, a borderline or whatever; I’m sure that he, along with those other “insane” men, brought plenty of drama to her life. Far more than she bargained for, in fact.

And I do seriously doubt whether a look at Appleton’s past record would have dissuaded her from continuing her relationship with him. If she’d seen it at the outset, before getting at all involved with him, perhaps it would. But by the time she was already “in love” (and I’ll bet that happened QUICKLY), she’d be only too good at rationalizing any objections away. With George Appleton’s help, naturally! “Domestic violence”? No, he was falsely accused by a psycho ex-girlfriend. “Kidnapping at knifepoint?” No, she made it all up. He was framed. It was all a misunderstanding. Poor George, he’d always had such bad luck. He always seemed to fall in with wicked, vengeful women who got him into all kinds of trouble out of pure spite. But darling Clare was different from all those, wasn’t she? Dear Clare would be nice to him… And some of these people like Appleton are persuasive because they actually BELIEVE the version they’re telling! They’ve got themselves convinced they’re the “real” victims.

Oh, I’m sure having access to a potential partner’s past record will help SOME people. But I wouldn’t count on it helping them all. Not when they’re “in love,” or passionately infatuated. I remember poor Camille for instance, a nice lady who was wooed by an unspeakable rogue completely unsuited to her and already married to someone else. He was clearly a psychopath. She REALIZED he was only after her money! She said as much to her dressmaker, Annie. When Annie asked after her new “beau,” Camille told her “We’ve parted. I’ve found out he doesn’t want me, only my money. What do you think—he wants me to withdraw all my money and let him invest it in his name. But I won’t do it—so we’ve entirely parted.” Despite this avowal of commonsense, Camille, who was eminently respectable, went to live with this fellow anyway, in an age when “ladies just didn’t do that kind of thing”! He shot her, buried her body—and collared all her money. What WOULD it have taken to dissuade her?

As important as it is to know other people’s background—and to be aware of psychopaths and other chronic abusers—in the end it can be just as important to be aware of one’s own weaknesses and where they can lead.

Ox Drover

Dear Redwald,

I agree (as usual) with every word you wrote above…and Eric Berne is MY HERO!!!!! I love his works, he makes looking at actions make sense….I read him years ago, I just wish I had put it into practice more! LOL

Your comment below:

“As important as it is to know other people’s background—and to be aware of psychopaths and other chronic abusers—in the end it can be just as important to be aware of one’s own weaknesses and where they can lead.”

is so right on! It isn’t just the knowledge we have about the other person, it is about OUR OWN WEAKNESSES. I obviously knew my son was a murderer after he was arrested and convicted, but I allowed my OWN WEAKNESS of my “need” for him to “reform” to keep me in DENIAL and involved in the “game playing” as Dr. Berne would have said….

I agree with you that Clare had her own issues, and some serious ones, and I totally agree with you she would not have changed a thing if the police would have shown her a VIDEO of him raping a 2-year old, it wouldn’t have mattered, but her father is looking for a cause, something to alleviate his own sense of “failure to save” his daughter from this man, but actually, the failure to save her from her OWN BAD CHOICES which ultimately led to her relationship with a lethal man.

I think SOME of us here for whatever reason have “known” that the person we were dealing with was “bad news” (knew he had a criminal record, knew he was violent etc) and still continued the relationship—I can speak for myself on this as I continued my relationship and continued trying to “save” my P-son well after I knew he was guilty of murder.

I’ve turned around 180 degrees now and no longer closely associate with anyone who is a liar, dishonest, has a criminal record etc. I realize that MY weakness was in my desire to save those I loved from themselves, and my willingness to allow them to use me repeatedly. Now I realize I can only save myself—from those who would use me. I can’t save someone else from themselves.


Redwald and Oxy,
I agree that it is most important to know ourselves and our vulnerabilities. Those vulnerabilities can only be seen and understood in the context of predators. Therefore a general understanding of predatory behavior and the red flags that go with them is absolutely required teaching from first grade on. These are large concepts that can be taught in small bites to little kids to teach them to form boundaries and larger bites to older kids.

In this situation, Clare didn’t get that and she lacked good judgement for whatever reason. The only thing left to do would have been to give her the facts. The spaths will hide or misrepresent the facts because they know instinctively where their victims boundaries are / aren’t.

I bring this up because, I too, could see so many things about my spath that were not quite right, but I didn’t know what they meant. I didn’t have good boundaries. Didn’t even know what they were. But I had one boundary: money. If I had known that my parents OVERHEARD him SAY that he was only with me for my money, he would not have lasted 25 years with me. NO WAY. This was the only boundary and value that my parents gave me. It’s why I’m so frugal. But they didn’t give me the self-protection and self-worth boundaries.
Spath knew all this so he was emotionally abusive but he was very very careful to not tread on the money boundary. He siphoned it off slowly, that’s why it took 25 years. The first time he borrowed $5000 and didn’t pay it back, I broke up with him. He paid it back in order to get me to reconcile with him. They say spaths don’t learn, but they do. He never borrowed money again. Instead, he attached himself to me and became a parasite.

The point is, when there are FACTS, which contradict what the spath portrays, then those facts can help even someone who is a pushover for the pity ploy. Because the spath will always HIDE any facts that would scare the victim away.


I don’t know about Clare so my response is to your post only. What jumps out at me is thinking Clare is Narcissist. That’s her attraction to needing excitement and her murderer. Other people are boring to N’s. Bad choices b/c her motivation was not based on immorality, it was based on feeding her N ego.

I think N’s explain a pattern for a lot of spath partners who KNOWINGLY enter a relationship with deceit at it’s core (bad boys, cheats, married, high flyers, etc). I am not saying that explains ALL partners of spaths, some truly are targeted for what spaths can get from them. But I think spaths are also attracted to N’s, they are easily manipulated b/c their narcissism makes them so, and they are more entertaining than some of us boring ethical/moral characters. N’s make excellent dupes for spaths, so willing to do harm to others for the ego feed they get back from spaths.



Regarding your post about facts which contradict what the spath portrays. There is an excellent recent rare example.

I am not a Bachlorette viewer, but I did watch youtube clips of the one just finished. It showed an spath wooing the young woman, in short order she was smitten. But what it also showed was how he was to her face, how he was to OTHER’s faces, and how he REALLY was, his contempt and ridicule for how he had a plan and how easy it was to dupe others, but it had gotten boring so he left, using the excuse that he missed his daughter, and of course that manipulates other peoples sense of honor b/c who would condemn a man for his devotion to his child? At the end, they have a review show and the spath did not show. No surprise b/c they wanted him to explain himself. To be accountable. We could have told them he would not show. A narcissist would b/c they just want to be seen, but an spath. No way. He got what he wanted and was outtathere.

Ox Drover

Katy, I agree with you that for some reason Clare seemed to CRAVE “excitement” and was bored with her “good husband’ and her child….whether it was narcissistic tendencies or just what prompted her boredom I’m not sure…it bears thinking about though for sure.

I think there are SEVERAL things than prompt people to become dupes/co-abusers for psychopaths (doing the bidding of the psychopath by helping the Ps in their attacking others) and I think there are also several things that cause people to become the unknowing victims of psychopaths, including trauma bonds.

Just as there are some differences in psychopaths (even though there are also some similarities) there are some similarities in those who become involved with them, and there are some differences as well.


The reason I think Narcissists are frequent partners of spaths is the N’s pattern of reasoning. They don’t chose based on what’s BEST for themselves, they even self sabotage, b/c the N fix is Primary, not reason, not gain, not pain. What feeds a N fix better than an spath in the seduction phase? What creates an addiction better than knowing you got that greatest high from that one person? And like a pavlov dog, they try to hit that high again and again. I think that’s Nancy Garddino, not the instigator but willing to do anything so he will give her that fix.

I’ve seen it here on LF, where it’s clear that the poster was a victim of an spath, but they themselves are calloused, cruel, and without empathy. They scream their pain but never give proper attention to those THEY harmed.


Katy, we all have some narcissism in us. It’s the part of us that tells us we are “special” and it’s exactly that which the spaths target. Even the poor pastor/flight instructor whose helicopter my spath sabotaged to kill him, was targeted in his narcissistic belief that he should help my spath by filling out his log books illegally (because my spath told him that he needed to keep the training uptodate). I believe that pity ploy was just used to get closer to the pastor, so that the sabotage opportunity could arise.

None of us is perfect. Sometimes what we think is our strength, turns out to be our weakness.


Skyar, I agree we all have narcissism as it is specifically defined. It is vital to our survival. Usually when people refer to narcissists, and how I do so as well, is when it has become Dysfunctional, an out of balance coping mechanism. But your post seems to stand alone. Can you put it in context for me? I didn’t see how it followed from my post to you.
Katy, who admits she can be a little thick.

Ox Drover


Sky’s X killed a guy by taking the cotter pins out of the door hinges and turning the bolts upside down so the helicpoter he was flying in would self destruct shortly after take off. The man who was flying it (the pastor/instructor) was giving a lesson to another pilot…Sky’s X had to brag to Sky how he did it. I checked the NTSB report on the wreck and there is NO other way both doors would have flown off in mid air, could be no other way BOTH doors would fly off shortly after take off. Sky’s X had gotten this flight instructor to fake some stuff in his log book. Why he killed the guy—who knows the motives behind these people completely?—but he sure got DUPING DELIGHT out of doing so and had to have an appreciative audience for doing so. Sky’s X reminds me so much of my P son it is not funny. Smart, sneaky, and cruel to the max, as well as HIGHLY narcissistic himself.

As for narcissists being hooked up with psychopaths, FREQUENTLY I agree with that notion, as MANY dysfunctional relationships are two people who are both VERY narcissistic and/or psychopathic hooking up and the one who LOSES the most becomes a “victim” and presents as a VICTIM (here on Love fraud and in real life)when in fact, they are CO-ABUSERS.

How many of you have had your psychopathic X present him/herself as a VICTIM of YOU!!!!??? Okay, EVERYONE can sit down now because the “vote” is 100%. LOL

Ox Drover

ps As bad as I hate to admit it, I too am somewhat narcissistic in thinking that I could “fix” the P-son and son C….and the other pity-ploy people (friends and family members) by somehow being more understanding of them and more forgiving.,…excuse me while I PUKE!

I realize now that I am NOT POWERFUL enough to fix anyone except myself and I have to work REALLY REALLY HARD to even make any progress on ME! LOL


I catch myself in my own n traits all the time, but the fact that we are self aware indicates we are not trapped in the disorder. That I was supposed to be responsible for how others behaved was a headtrip that was put on me when I was too young and vulnerable to know I had a choice. I never thought I was Fixing my husband, I thought I was fixing ME so my husband would want me, at least that’s what HE said it took and I trusted him at the time.

Katy, who has always thought of herself as a work in progress


no you aren’t thick.
It’s a convoluted subject.
I had a long talk with Harry, a spath friend of my ex-spath’s.
Harry said, “I’m an honest man and you can’t cheat an honest man.” LOL! He’s a sick, spath whose mask is honesty!

But the only reason I bring that up, is that you CAN cheat an honest man. My ex-spath could cheat mother teresa, if she had never met a spath. I know because Ben, the preacher, was honest and good to a fault. He flew the helicopter for Airlift northwest – the ambulance copter out here. And he trained pilots and he was the preacher at a chuch. He was a good family man. But my spath came home and told me that he convinced him to fill out his log book showing hours flown, which were not real as part of his training. Then he said he was keeping 2 books. By this time, I ignored most of the things spath said to me. I knew I couldn’t keep up with truth and lies so I just said, “yes, dear.” But anyway, shortly after, Ben died in a helicopter accident and spath said, “the cotter pins were placed upside down, that’s why the door failed.”

I don’t think both doors fell off, but I’m not sure. This was just another one of spath’s dead “friends” and I said, “yes dear.” and stuck my head back in the sand.

The point is, how did spath convince Ben to do something illegal? Answer: pity ploy. Same way Ted Bundy convinced the women he murdered to carry his books. So I ask myself, WTF? I know that spaths work on our emotions and our narcissism, so what is being targeted here? Our sense of being good, gaining brownie points in heaven, feeling special because we helped someone. This doesn’t seem like a bad thing, but if it makes us vulnerable then it is bad. How? Because when you go to “rescue” someone you are taking it upon yourself to change the natural course of events, as if you know better than God or nature. If you are going to do that then be prepared to take the responsibility for what happens next. Spaths tell us these things, inadvertantly and unintentionally. It’s like the old legend that says if you save someone’s life, you become responsible for them for the rest of your/their life.

Western civilization isn’t really set up to understand these concepts. We are so much into free will and individual liberty. Those are the concepts I grew up with, but I’m seeing that there is much more to perceive. Spaths force our eyes open about what responsibility really means.


But Skylar,
Yes, you are preachin to da choir as they say. I realized what was being targeted in me. I told him what I was, who I was, my moral character, etc. He wanted to prove me a liar, WIN by showing that I was not a good person. I was less than. But he could only WIN by deceit, b/c as soon as he could not mindfk me anymore, I was back on track, not confused or wobbly anymore. Frankly, part of the reason he could do all that damage to me was I had muliple misscarriages, LOTS of sinus infections, a small stroke, and immune system breakdown. When someone is that physically ill, they are vulnerable emotionally as well. Am I a good person? Not always, but I try to be. Being mean makes me feel bad and I don’t like feeling bad.

Did you see my reference to the example of an spath in action? It’s superficial but simple lessons can be powerful. That was my response to your earlier posting. I was just giving a concrete example to your ending statement about spaths and their contradictions. My example is an excellent one.


Yes Katy,
I guess we are saying the same thing. Your example is one of utter deceit, caught on tape. My example is the same, but not caught on tape. I only know of it because of the sociopathic tell.

The only thing I’m saying is that narcissism shows in different forms. We all want to be loved and we need it desperately. I’m trying to learn to live without that need because it’s the ultimate protection from spaths.

Thank you and Oxy for helping me think through this very difficult subject. (((Katy and Oxy))


How do you separate giving vs needing love?

There are some needs that are healthy. It is a human instinct to connect and love is part of that instinct. Narcissism is also healthy, unless it crosses over to dysfunctional. Love is a healthy connection. It’s only unhealthy when it becomes dysfunctional. We also need WATER but remember, if you drink too much water, it will kill you.

I don’t think there is ultimate protection from spaths except for death. That’s not much of a choice. So maybe it’s better to learn to assert boundries and standards? And to develop our resilience?

Just my op of course.



I just read your post on this thread from August 4 @ 2:30, even more recently you repeated it again on yet another thread. You really should get down from your pulpit on horse slaughter until you first go check your “facts.”

“One of the WORST cases of misplaced empathy I can think of was the add-on to some Senate bill that made it illegal for horses to be slaughered by the USDA for meat in 2007.”

There was no federal legislation, no one senator, no senate bill, no slaughter advocates anti- or pro-, and no empathy misplaced or otherwise that had one damn thing to do with the closings of the three remaining horse slaughter plants on U.S. soil in 2007. They were closed by State laws and it was because community administrators and residents wanted the gore, stench, and pollution gone. The Kaufman, TX and DeKalb, IL plants were already in danger of being shut down because of repeated sanitation and pollution violations.

Legislators have introduced bills to ban horse slaughter in each session of Congress for over a decade now. Powerful pro-slaughter legislators, the ones with Big Agriculture’s money in their pockets, bury the bills in committee even though public support for a slaughter ban has reached 80 percent in favor of a ban. I’ll repeat, eighty percent of Americans disagree with you and believe slaughter should be banned. Horse slaughter is Animal Ag which falls under Big Ag meaning legislation affecting slaughter must pass through Ag committees long before reaching the President’s desk for signature and becoming law. This Ag throne is the very same authority that keeps on allowing/providing hormone additives in our milk, the failed but expensive Ethanol experiment, and farm subsidies from the depression era that are still being distributed today to 1 percent of millionaire farmers. [Disclosure: I am not anti-farmer, quite the opposite. I am from a multi-generational Iowa farming family even before my birth and in my lifetime we are three generations of farmers, my grandfather was born, raised and died on the same century farm, my parents, and I (three separate Iowa farms). I am also not a troll, quite the opposite. I have gratitude for Donna and the info she provides and have been reading LF since before OxDrover or Aloha Traveler’s first posts, somewhere back around 2005, and I got here the same way as everyone else. I rarely post, but I have at least two hot buttons, misinformation and abuse. The first time can be a mistake the next time it isn’t. That’s about it, I’ve moved on from my own bad situation and I know you all will too eventually and the proof is the constant changing of the guard here on LF. Good luck and be well.]

Congress did achieve a de facto horse slaughter ban in 2005 by passing an amendment to an appropriations bill eliminating the funding for USDA inspections for horses, but the intent of Congress was thwarted. The USDA pressured by Big Ag changed their rules and allowed slaughter plants to start paying for their own inspections, and that prompted legal action and a law suit was filed against the USDA. Finally on March 28, 2007 the District Court of D.C. finally ruled this practice illegal and ordered it stopped. By this time, however, the States had taken their own actions as outlined above, with the two Texas plants already closed and the Illinois legislation well under way. This amendment is evidently what you are referring to as your “add on.” This amendment continues to be passed at each new budget, and so far continues to prevent plants from being reopened domestically. I believe you are confusing this Amendment with the controversial and corrupt “add on” to a Senate bill by the known corrupt Montana Senator, Conrad Burns, which was horse slaughter related but very different legislation and scenario. In 2004 Burns gutted 1971 legislation that had passed unanimously through both houses of Congress protecting wild horses, and in so doing, opened eyes and started a slaughter fire storm. With the closing of the domestic plants and the ban on USDA inspections upheld in 2007, the intent of Congress was to stop American horses from being slaughtered. Unfortunately, their intent was again thwarted by loophole legislation, and that is when the additional suffering of transport to Canada and Mexico for slaughter began even though transport to both those two countries was taking place before 2007. Whatever plant was closer to the purchase location was the plant where the horses were shipped. But with your story you completely ignored years of legislative history favoring the pro-slaughter lobby for Big Ag that blocked legislation that would have ACTUALLY STOPPED the UNTOLD SUFFERING of hundreds of thousands of horses that continues today, the horses that you claim so much concern for, and for the horses that were killed while pro-slaughter used loopholes to ignore the will of Congress and still are. That’s who you chose to assign no blame; you didn’t know or you didn’t mention it.

The myth you invented of “misplaced empathy” by “an act that the senator thought was “kind— and “ACTUALLY resulted in UNTOLD SUFFERING of hundreds of thousands of horses and continues today,” blah, blah, blah (apart from the UNTOLD SUFFERING continues today which is true), your story in its entirety is a lie, and a shameful one. Unbelievably, your scenario attempts to taint those who would rectify this horror yet ignores those who ACTUALLY ARE responsible–legislators who are bought and big business/Big Ag who pays. What’s more, your idea that a senator would vote on legislation strictly on emotion–ignoring other facts certainly available to her or that she is just that plain stupid is unbelievable and intellectually nonsensical. The idea to frame anti-slaughter supporters as emotional, inexperienced, and unknowing “tree hugger-do good” types is a ploy pro-slaughter uses that you borrowed for your Senator tale, i.e., the poor sap of Senator versus pro-slaughter, those who are really in the know. Hogwash. Don’t you think if there was any truth to your Senator story the pro-slaughter lobby would have come up with it long before you invented it? I have an experienced observation for you, those anti-slaughter folks can read every bit as well as you have.

“so no more horses could be economically processed”

Economical for whom, yourself? Remember there is NO demand for horsemeat in America, not for food, not for dog food, not even used for food for wild animals in zoos anymore because of the public stigma of butchering our equine partners and because horsemeat is toxic from routine over drugging that is so common with America’s horses. Also remember each of these plants was foreign owned and the horsemeat was for export, so again who are your concerned about it being economically processed for? Ninety percent of horses taken to auction go to slaughter for European consumption. A prime horse for kill buyers is an average aged Quarter or Draft cross type in good health and good flesh. Killer buyers don’t want your old, emaciated, or crippled horses. By law these horses are not even supposed to ship. USDA reports that 92.3 percent of slaughter horses are healthy, viable horses.

Paula Bacon, former mayor of Kaufman, Texas where Dallas Crown International operated (horse slaughterer), reports that the good old boys in our federal government saw to it that $5 million in federal funding was being spent annually to support the last three domestic plants. Dallas Crown reported gross income of over $12,000,000 and paid $5 (yes f-i-v-e dollars) in federal taxes. The local costs of contamination and pollution each plant caused must be added to the equation and Dallas Crown didn’t as much as even pay their fines let alone pay for repairs and/or damages.

Paula Bacon said, “The more I learn about horse slaughter, the more certain I am: There is no justification for horse slaughter in this country. My city was little more than a doormat for a foreign-owned business that drained our resources, thwarted economic development and stigmatized our community. Americans don’t eat horses, and we don’t raise them for human consumption. There is no justification for spending American tax dollars to support this industry at the expense of Americans and our horses.” Doesn’t sound to me like horses were economically processed for taxpayers as you seem to claim, Oxdrover. Your local auction and/or horse prices are not supported by a few local horsemen, but are supported by killer buyers and European demand that purchase 90 percent of the horses that go through the ring.

You and your neighbors and most casual owners of the cheaper horses are non-players in the horse industry yet you have gotten used to having the convenience of dropping a horse off at the sale barn when you tire of it or it’s no longer serviceable to you. You get a few hundred bucks back and the horse gets a horrific death sentence instead of you having to find another buyer or having to pay to dispose of it. BTW, your estimate for disposal is a rather grand overstatement also. Usually $300 is a good rural average. In urban areas, one month’s board is used as an average, around $500. But let’s not get lost in minutia, if someone can afford to care for a horse then someone can afford to dispose of one, and if that someone can’t then probably that someone shouldn’t own one. Why you think cheap and easy disposal is a service that is owed to a horse owner is a mystery to me. As far as you burying horses on the farm, you still have to get the hole dug and unless you have a back hoe sitting at the idle, by the time you pay for the dirt work likely you could have had the carcass picked up for less money and been done with it, unless it’s your thing and Arkansas law still allows you to drag one back into the trees for the carcass to rot. Most people I know wouldn’t choose to do that; I believe it is illegal in Iowa anyway. I never buried a horse on my farm even with plenty more acres than your mother’s farm you live on, and with pastures full of horses and back hoes from my business readily available. It is far more economical to call for a truck if that’s an available service in the area.

“so no more horses could be economically processed for slaughter in a humane way (the USDA mandates HUMANE SLAUGHTER)”

Gosh because you capitalize this phrase and because the USDA says so, you’re indicating to readers that it’s true? If I remember correctly you home butcher a beef “because of what might be in it.” Well I’ll remind you, both the USDA AND THE FDA mandate FOOD SAFETY also, just like they do humane slaughter. It doesn’t appear, however, that actually gives you much comfort when it’s on your own front porch, or I should say on your own dining room table.

When someone spreads the notion that horse slaughter is humane that’s the first clue that someone doesn’t have a clue. Commercial slaughter is inherently cruel no matter where it takes place. But horse slaughter is especially cruel. It is manned by illiterate and illegal (when domestic) workers, usually using old cattle facilities and by captive bolt gun, assembly line production at minimum wage. Horses are not cattle, they don’t react like cattle, they aren’t built like cattle. You evidently have not seen the USDA’s own 906-page document from 2008 reporting on itself, on domestic horse slaughter plants finally released three years after a FOIA request. No wonder the USDA wanted to keep it out of the public eye. It documented unquestionably the unspeakable cruelty and abuse that took place right here on domestic soil routinely, day after day. Perhaps you should have a look before you attempt to convince others you know what you’re talking about concerning the horrors of slaughter, here or elsewhere. The USDA documentation also contains almost 900 photos and by now is just one of many documented slaughter plant abuse reports that are easily accessible today verifying abuse in all slaughter plants. There is little difference except for shipping between U.S. and Canadian slaughter plant operations. Mexico is the most brutal as they use puntilla knives and have primitive facilities, but unbelievable abuse and live slaughter of horses occur in them all. A return to our old domestic slaughter would not stop the abuse! Sonja Meadows, executive director of Animals’ Angels (animal abuse watchdog group) said, “We now know [from these new documents] that being on U.S. soil does not make horse slaughter humane or better. That this could go on even with the presence of USDA inspectors makes absolutely clear that horse slaughter is not euthanasia and definitely not a humane end.”

And finally, something you don’t mention and pro-slaughter activists don’t want to acknowledge but one issue which may eventually be the last nail in the horse slaughter casket since Big Ag won’t release its chokehold, is that American horses are not raised as food animals. The commercial beef that you refuse to eat OxDrover is regulated by our government, by the USDA and by the FDA. Horses are bred for sport not their meat, and they are completely unregulated.

Do you happen to be familiar with Bute, for just one example of toxic drugging? It is given to American horses as commonly and routinely as humans take aspirin. Bute is a known carcinogen. The FDA warning label on the packaging states clearly, NOT FOR ANIMALS FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. There is no withdrawal period for Bute, it remains in the system and in the carcass upon slaughter, proven fact. The USDA used to report that Bute was not found upon testing carcasses. However, it was later discovered their preliminary testing did find some 8 percent in a zero tolerance requirement by FDA in carcass testing, so USDA just labeled it preliminary and then terminated further testing. Their tests have since been deemed inadequate and a new study released in Feb. 2010, scientists write that “significant public health risk” exists in horses administered PZB (Bute) and sent to slaughter. Banamine and wormers are also administered regularly to American horses and are also carcinogenic. These few I mention don’t even scratch the surface of the drugs administered regularly to horses.

The European Union (EU) is finally in a three-year process of instituting complete bans on many drugs routinely given to American horses for the European horsemeat industry. If any of these banned drugs have ever been administered to a horse in its lifetime they are deemed unfit for slaughter. Bute is only one of many toxic drugs administered regularly to horses that are now EU banned, and in my experience I’ve never found a horse completely Bute free (except maybe a baby). A recent Thoroughbred experiment found 100 percent of horses in their study tested at slaughter to be positive for Bute. When a horse races he’s going to be Buted, and it’s not uncommon for horses to come off the track and go straight to the kill pen. You just don’t find horses that haven’t been given Bute. Whether or not the EU’s rules can be enforced in the slimy underbelly of the slaughter world is yet to be seen. Canada is considering ceasing slaughter operations because of the new EU rules they must implement and enforce to become compliant. The future of slaughter may be taken out of our hands. But, OxDrover, since you are a health advocate and a nurse, how do you justify selling known TOXIC horseflesh to feed Europeans, do you not know or do you just turn a blind eye? This is the argument pro-slaughter can’t answer either.

The horrendous cruelty involved in the horse slaughter industry has become very well documented and completely indisputable. The pro-slaughter lobby wants us to believe all sorts of things but the most often touted is that closing the domestic plants caused the collapse of the equine economy, increased abuse and neglect, and left thousands of starving horses tromping through the middle of the National Parks, as you pointed out OxDrover that you took from pro-slaughter talking points. But somehow they ignore the fact that more American horses are being slaughtered now in Mexico and Canada than were slaughtered when the three US slaughterhouses were open, which completely disproves this theory. Nothing’s changed here for the seller except a low price, if you want rid of a horse go drop him off. But you might consider more logical and obvious reasons, like over breeding and the worst economy since the depression. Most pro-slaughter arguments end the same way, unsubstantiated fodder now refuted by facts. Just a little common sense is required. The recent GAO report on the effect of the 2007 plant closings was completely unremarkable and basically stalled and wasted time while more horses died.

After all is said and done and after all lip service has been given, horse slaughter boils down to two simple but ugly things, horrific animal abuse and greed. Next would be ten years of over breeding. I have to scratch my head at beginning a discussion about horse slaughter at any other place. Pro-slaughter needs the large garbage can of 145,000 horses going to slaughter annually so they can keep on over breeding for the next year. As long as that huge garbage can is available, what incentive is there to breed fewer horses? The pro-slaughter insiders know it, just as I know it, and just as all horse people know it–those horses at the bottom of the food chain are meeting with a horrific death. But obviously, that’s not what they are going to tell you or America. As a general rule, those who make money from horses are pro-slaughter. Hypocritically they come from large breeders, breed associations, equine suppliers, and veterinary associations, some but not all, those who claim to promote “America’s Horse.”

So be aware LF readers of what you are reading and who you listen to, even here. Go look and then decide what horse abuse is and what it isn’t, if you have an interest. A picture is worth a thousand words and the facts just don’t lie if you can get to them, consider both sides. But while American horses are caught and dying in this political quagmire of legislative ineptness, our government continues to export a product that is unregulated, inhumane, and unsafe. OxDrover, I don’t need a scientific name to describe this writing problem as you mentioned in the other thread, it’s just called talking out of school. Do your homework before you climb into the pulpit. I assure you, butchering horses IS cruel and all your rants you claim against animal abuse disappear into hot air because horse slaughter is abuse. Period.


Ox Drover

Benz, I think you and I are just looking at the same set of facts and drawing different conclusions.

It doesn’t make me a dime’s difference one way or the other as I am not breeding horses. My particular issue with this is with ignorance, which includes over breeding and no-kill policies. Before the outlawing of killing horses in the US at USDA there were about 100,000 horses killed per year here and the horses brought about 60 cents a pound. There is and there was a market for this meat. BTW it is really good meat. Now, a healthy adult horse may go for $15-50 per head, to be shipped to Mexico or Canada for slaughter. Due to the requirements for Coggins tests yearly or for legal sale which costs about $40 each, people actually lose money on a horse they intend to sell, so the horse having no “value” is not treated well. Then the horse must ride 100s of miles to Mexico in a truck.

I also have a real problem with over breeding of cats and dogs which causes tremendous suffering of animals, but I don’t think more no kill shelters is going to stop the problem, or shipping them to Mexico to be put down is the answer either. Keeping the NO KILL POLICY does NOT STOP the slaughter, it just MOVES it. THAT IS MY POINT. Peace.


I think a bit of gardening is the order of the day!


Benz, thanks for all this information. I have a friend who is very interested in this topic (who is not on lf), and I will send her some of the info and reports you quote.


Benz ~

Maybe you should think about reading your own advice and get your facts straight.

First, l am not sure if you will also claim that I have ” no background in or connection to the horse industry” as you stated about Oxy. You may further claim that I am one of those “casual owners of the cheaper horses” and am therefore a “non-player”

I do however have 50 years experience with horses. My cheaper horses have included Doc Bar’s grandson. Not Doc Bar breeding DOC BAR’S GRANDSON. (for all you readers that are not horsey people, DOC BAR is a featured horse in the American Quarter Horse Hall of Fame) I have also owned several American Quarter Horse champions over the years. I don’t know if that qualifies me as a casual owner of the cheaper horses or not.

You ripped Oxy from one end to the other about not having her facts straight, yet it looks to me like you pulled most of yours right out of thin air. By the way if you have “never found a horse completely Bute free” then you haven’t looked too hard. Again for you non horsey people, Bute is an anti-inflamatory drug used for lame horses.

I don’t have the time or energy and frankly it isn’t worth the breath to argue with each and every “fact” you outlined, but seeing you mentioned a Senator from the Great State of Montana, please take the time to look up Senator Max Baucus’ press release dated June 29, 2011.

It states “Montana’s senior U.S. Senator Max Baucus today urged the end of a ban on U.S. horse slaughter plants after a new report concluded the ban actually hurts the American economy and the horses themselves. Baucus required the report to be conducted by the INDEPENDENT, NON-PARTISAN GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE as part of a 2009 Agriculture bill, because of concerns that ending the practice was harming Montana’s ranchers and horse welfare.

Baucus said, “The ban just doesn’t make any sense, and this report proves it. Injured or sick horses are having to suffer even more by traveling long distances only to be put down in places where they aren’t protected by American humane standards. And farmers and ranchers are suffering from fewer sales and lower prices, while we send jobs to Canada and Mexica. That’s not right for our economy and it’s not right for our horses.”

The report goes on, and it basically makes all of Oxy’s points.

Ok, me personally, I hate the idea of horses being slaughtered, for any reason. I just had a 30 something horse put down by my vet and then buried, on my property. I put up a headstone. The whole process cost me more than I paid for the horse. I bought this horse 20 some years ago, AFTER an auction. He had been bid on and sold to the “meat man”, I could not see this horse go there. With that said, those of us who UNDERSTAND this situation (even though we are considered by you as non-players) agree 100% with Oxy and Senator Baucus – In the end the ban on US Slaughter HURTS THE HORSES.

Oh, I really didn’t like your tone


Benzthere…..i’m not clear…..are we talking about male or female victims of sociopaths in your writings?



Ox Drover

I looked for an APPROPRIATE THREAD TO POST THIS ON, and this one I guess is as good as any.

The WEST MEMPHIS THREE were released from Prison in Arkansas today…over 18 yrs ago they were convicted in a “witch hunt” of murdering 3 young boys. One of the three is MR and he eventually “confessed” and there was NO evidence besides his “confession” but one of the young men was sent to prison’s death row, and the other two to life without parole.

The ONLY DNA evidence was against the step father of one of the boys and His DNA was found INSIDE THE KNOT that tied the boys up.

Today after a POLITICAL PLEA DEAL in which they were allowed to plead guilty but deny guilt at the same time, they were given time served and released. They took the “deal” though they didn’t want to rather than go back to court for a new trial. But the deal leaves them “guilty” of a felony and they are on probation for 10 years (to keep their mouths shut).

When this first happened I was like most of the people, I thought from the news reports that they must be guilty, but through the years there has been PLENTY OF EVIDENCE that they were smart mouthed and smart arsed teenagers at the time, but NO evidence that they were guilty.

I’m glad they are “free” tonight and I hope they do well, though I doubt that they will. Many of the men freed after decades on death row or in max security due to DNA evidence of actual innocence have not done well on the outside. Texas even has a support organization for those who have proven innocence and helps the former inmates with medical insurance and money, but these young men won’t even get that.

I’ve reversed my stand on the death penalty just for these few men that have been proven INNOCENT, but sorry to say my state still tries to do a POLITICAL RELEASE of young men who probably ARE INNOCENT….though there are now DOZENS of people proven innocent taken off death row.

I’m glad these young men will sleep tonight out of prison.


Wow, thank god for that verdict.




Hmm.. I had no idea that the kid was mentally disabled. That puts a WHOLE ‘nother spin on it. I cannot believe his ‘confession’ ( following a BRUTAL interrogation ) was considered admissable in court. Wow. ( Mentally disabled or not, it would have been unethical considering the nature of the interrogation and the circumstances of the case- but c’mon… that’s just stooopid. )




Correction: I said, “the lawyer’s leading questions” when I should have said, “the DETECTIVE’S leading questions.”

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