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Self-help guru files suit against guy who dumped her

Karen Salmansohn, author of How to Be Happy, Dammit and about 20 other self-help books, got scammed by a guy who paid for her fertility treatments, but when she was pregnant, dumped her.

See story in the New York Daily News.

Link submitted by a Lovefraud reader.

Posted in: Cases, Media sociopaths

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113 Comments on "Self-help guru files suit against guy who dumped her"

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The story was interesting, and the comments even more interesting. She didn’t get a lot of empathy or sympathy from the comments.

I’m sorry she got conned, and it is obvious to me that she DID get conned. She told him her “greatest wish” was to be a mother at 49 and he paid for this to happen, so I think most women would fall for that BAIT, of course the HOOK was that it was all a lie. He was using his money to pretend like he cared about her, and she swallowed the bait complete with the HOOK.

The lawsuit–?? Well I’m not sure she will get much if anythiing, but maybe she will at least get child support.

It does prove, if anything, that any of us can be suckered in if the BAIT is GOOD enough. I feel for her.

It is interesting. I didn’t read the comments, I knew they might disappoint and aggravate me; the general public not understanding what they are ‘really’ reading about, always evaluate these situations using the measuring stick of non-pathological behavior.

I feel really bad for this woman. I am personally glad that she is filing a lawsuit. Even if the outcome is against her the media attention around this, when added to other peculiar stories, is being woven into the culture’s awareness, and hopefully having a ‘building’ effect.

What I picked up (again) from her story is the speed with which these relationships happen. It is generally always about speed, even if the person is pretending to honor our sense of timing; there is still a sense of intimate engagement that in reality takes time to develop, but seems to be almost instant with predators.

I think this is a key for spotting them. Oxy, you have it so right about the bait being good enough. And some of them have the means to promise us a lot. Beware how fast we are to take relative strangers up on their promises!

I am so sorry Karen Salmansohn was abused in this way. What’s odd about this case is that it seems unlikely the man in question set out from the start to do this to her. It seems like he was simply not playing with a full deck.

Could it have been a case of the “middle aged crazies” gone to extremes due to the man’s wealth?

Mind you, I’m not giving him a free pass. What he did was evil, but I just don’t think it was premeditated.

Interesting. She perhaps acted rashly and under the ether – but at 49 finding the answer to her “greatest wish” some sense of urgency is understandable.

Making sense of the guys actions always leads to a dead end.

Sounds to me like he is one of the “sadistic” PSN’s who took her down because he could. Think of the power trip- a “self help life coach- prolific author on happiness- having her most cherished dream handed to her, with much romance and fanfare- all your dreams have come true, here I am – and not only do I love you- I am rich and can pay for all of this-
and then BANG- all faw down go boom. you think you know about how to be happy? Well I have just made you deliriously happy, only to destroy you. Ouch in a big way.

What a power trip for the monster.

She maybe- being smart enough to write all those books about relationships and human interaction should have had her scepticism honed a little more sharply- but c’mon….$30k in fertility payments seems relatively real, no?

Shows to go you, when someone delivers that which we most want- we often don’t sniff out the what ifs very rigorously.

We LFr’s should contact her and invite her to our site. She could perhaps become a vocal and prolific supporter of educating others. Waddya think?

What a terrible story.

When did her book “Prince Harming” get published?? Even ones well versed in this subject can get duped…argghhhh

Red Flags for me:

Salmansohn informed him on their second date that she longed to have a baby, she said. And he said he wanted a child. SECOND DATE.

Seduced by his poems and love letters

The romance bloomed quickly…. Met in August, confirmed pregnant by December…Getting engaged within 3 months..

All the makings are there…

Lots of red flags and questions about this story…

I will never date another guy without doing a background check. It just makes it so much easier to know if youre dealing with a married con- man right out of the gate.

I will never rely on promises – they are just words.

I will spend the first 6 mths to a year getting to know him – and getting to know his actions, his family, his friends, his life choices before I trust him – he must earn it – through his actions.

Not through sweeping me off my feet, paying for everything, promising me the world — those guys are usually the con-men…. and the ones that arent dont act that way upfront they sweep you off your feet by being your friend – not having to “save” you or “save the day” but share your life with you… cant explain it.

I agree with Elizabeth…and the lessons to be learned from this story are profound. As a woman and as a woman trying to protect herself from Evil toxic situations/men.

I hope Karen finds LF or a place like LF! Its where Im learning the tools necessary to protect myself and make choices that keep me away from evil toxic men/situations.

“As a woman and as a woman trying to protect herself from Evil toxic situations/men.”

Crazy people can be pretty toxic. “Why’d he do it?”

“Crazy!”

“Do we feel sorry for ‘Crazy Man’?”

“No way!”

The damage done is too profound.

“Mom, who’s my father?”

“Crazy Man.”

Does that work for anyone?

Didn’t think so.

Off with his balz!

Some people drift through life like jellyfish. Their victims are stung, and sometimes killed and devoured, while the predator does little more than drift with the tide.

We can’t say a jellyfish “attacks”. Nonetheless, many are harmed.

I learned how to look for jelly fish in the water… but not until AFTER I got stung a few times… I learned I had to actually LOOK with my eyes…and steer clear of them…if I didnt look out for them…they got me/ stung me …

Know what to look for…know what youre boundaries are…

Rushing into anything without looking and knowing and being informed is dangerous — including a beautiful blue ocean!

Also, I wonder if it was HIS sperm or a donor sperm she got! There are lots of questions unanswered in the article.

I also wonder about the money aspect of it all, she seems to have THOUGHT she found a “sugar daddy” that would make all her “dreams” come true from fertility treatment (expensive) to remodeling of her home, and when she got preg (my guess is that her getting preg at 49 is probably pretty close to a FERTILITY MIRIACLE which the sugar daddy didn’t really expect (maybe) to happen, and in the meant time, he has this ADORING extra woman (remember, he was still married and I would assume was spending what would be considered “marital assets” on this GF) so right there, if nothing else, he has SHOWN himself to be DISHONEST.

The article today that Donna published about the “pigeon drop” con job might apply here in several ways, and one would be that the woman was “greedy” for herself, for having a baby, for having her place fixed up, and all her “earthly dreams” to come true and rushed into it before she truly stopped to look at what was going on. Doesn’t mean she was a psychopath, but means she DID set herself up to be CONNED.

I think to one extent or another, we have all set ourselves up to be conned and if we had looked at it more logically, we would not have been. That’s why we try to learn about the RED FLAGS flying so it doesn’t happen to us again. Even if our “greed” is only greedy or needy for “true love” it can be the LURE THAT PULLS US IN. Just like in fishing for bass, the LURE must be something that LOOKS REAL AND LOOKS GOOD!

I agree with setting ourselves up….we do share a responsiblity in our lives….we do not always make the best decisions….and some decisions are clouded with our own wants and desires, so much so…we end up ‘here’.

We are romanced in childhood with the fantasy scenarios of Cinderella and such…..we dream of the big white horse and carriage, the large wedding etc……but we are offered very little reality of finances, arguments, raising children….the reality of those…..
Naturally, we lean towards the cinderella concept…..we wnat our lives to be like a fictional character, to be swept away…..

Even as adult women, having been harshly burned…….most of us would certainly entertain fallingin ‘love’ with an outwardly rich, nice, perfect gift giving man……and be blinded by the above…..we WANT it, We believe some men ARE like this……but in reality….they are few and far between.
But…..we hold on to the ‘bad’ ones….that portrayed the above……in ‘case’ we are wrong…..
Dang…..we’d hate to throw back a keeper……
a man who is really just having a bad day……who could support us, make our lives MUCH easier financially and provide for our kids what we’d always wanted for them…..

WE HAVE TO STOP THIS!!!! This is where we find trouble….

If we go into life, only allowing what WE OURSELVES can afford……whether emotionally or financially…..we become self sufficient and totally support ourselves…..and learn to NOT rely on anyone else for our needs, wants or desires…..
THAT”S when we will see beyond the fog.

Nothing comes for free…..

WE need to allow ourselves a place in the world to be happy, self sufficient and NOT NEEDING a man…..to provide what we should be providing ourselves….

I’ve watched GF’s…get right back into relationships…..and it’s alwyas the money factor…..the way the guy treats them….WITH HIS MONEY….that they are clouded by…..
We start to judge this guy by him taking us to nice restaurants, buying us gifts, paying our bills…….making life ‘easy’ onthat front……and IGNORE the fact he’s packing condoms regularly for business trips, going to strip clubs, not calling as ‘usual’….etc……we close our eyes…..cuz he’s ‘so nice to us’. The weight and balance sheet seems ‘kinda’ okay….so why am I complaining….our gf’s say….he treats you so well….because they only hear and see about the dinners, bills paid etc….
WE DON”T SHARE OUR SUSPICIONS…..until we are ready to hear our GF’s say….dump the bastard…..confirmation to us….
WE buy into the fantasy…..as WE manipulate it to suit our percieved needs…..
THE FACT IS……we have to learn how to be 100%, no holds bar honest….WITH OURSELF!!!!!
Or we are never going to find a happy, fulfilling relationship we seek.

Sometimes even when you are looking for the jellyfish and know what to look for you can still miss a few- It only takes one unseen jellyfish to sting you-

I think the real point here is that none us is 100% immune no matter how aware we are, and no matter how much work we do on ourselves.

We can raise our awareness and learn to better recognize and heed the red flags and warnings- but all human beings are imperfect-All human beings are sometimes inconsiderate, or behave badly, etc. There is increased safety in learning to recognize the difference between normal fallible human behavior and struggles and when those behaviors are signs of a disordered personality -but it does not offer 100% protection against being victimized.

When I got involved with the most recent and most destructive P in my life, it was at a time when I felt strong, and thought I had healed/recovered from my narcissistic and abusive family of Origin, and had come so far, and had learned the signs and had developed good boundaries- perhaps I was too sure of myself-let my guard down… thinking I could tell the difference between normal human struggle and difference vs. psychopathic behavior. It is awfully lonely and sad, and exhausting, to live always on the lookout for predators! The P took and used my dreams and kept me hooked with my hope until all my hope was gone- Intimacy requires trust- trust is clearly risky!

I think that most people think it could never happen to them- they think they would know- that they would see it coming– but I think anyone can be conned-and that even the greatest awareness is no guaruntee- For me, knowing that even good awareness and reasonably good boundaries does not make anyone 100% immune, to the con and the harm of a skilled P, is both a healing and a terrifying thought. It helps me understand that I was not to blame- but it doesn’t make me feel safe enough or to trust enough to venture out into the world again without overwhelming anxiety –

I learned as a kid that it was dangerous to want or need anything-that it was dangerous to believe in anything other that what was before me, or hope for anything else—then I learned as part of my healing that it was ok to want or need- He took that away- he systematically deconstructed my healing, my recovery, my peace and joy and the resiliance that I had worked so hard to develop–He used my strengths and all that I value in myself to destroy me and left me with a knowledge of an unbearable, frightening and empty world-

I do not want to know what i know!!! -He took my hope and my trust and my belief in the future and I can no longer figure out how to live in the world as the person I want to be in alignment with what I value and believe, and also keep myself safe.

How can one really love or really connect with another person without trust? and How does one plan for or work towards a future with another person without trust- If being able to trust and believe in others is also what makes us vulnerable to being targeted and victimized- what is the answer? How does one live without believing in their dreams how does one live without the ability to trust? How does one live without hope?

ErinB,

I used to think that someone could MAKE ME HAPPY by how the treated me, etc. but finally I realized that if someone couldl “make” me happy, they could also DASH THAT HAPPINESS. I had rather now, make myself happy, and if I find a happy man to SHARE happiness with it would be great, but even if that man turned out to be a dud, MY HAPPINESS WOULD NOT DEPEND ON ANYONE ELSE, who could die and leave me, cheat on me, etc.

I realize too that I had come to DEPEND on my late husband for my happiness, rather than BEING happy and sharing happiness with him. When he went and died on me (how very inconsiderate of him! LOL) my happiness died with him as well, so I looked for another man (the P-now-X-BF) to rescue me from my unhappiness—and gosh, that didn’t work either!

Realizing that WE are responsible for our OWN HAPPINESS and that NO ONE can “make” us happy, nothing can make us “happy”—and that if we want to be happy, we have to ASSEMBLE IT OURSELVES, and BY OURSELVES and there is no other way to make that happiness “secure.”

I know people who think that they would be SOOOO HAPPY if they won the lotto and got rich! Look at all the rich and famous people who are NOT HAPPY in their lives even though they HAVE everything that one would maybe say would “make” someone happy.

Look at Tiger Woods and his wife, he “had it all” and was still “unhappy” (frankly, I think he is a P) and she looked like she “had it all” and may have even thought she did, but I can guarentee she isn’t happy either, because her “prince” turned out to be a FROG of the worst sort. All those women who “thought” he “loved them” got fooled too.

Happiness is a DO-IT-YOURSELF project and truly it is the only way we can get a security in that happiness. If we build it ourselves, NOTHING can take it away from us if we don’t let our “happiness” depend on someone else’s “giving” it to us.

Dear Philomela,

I think we posted over each aother, so I didn’t see your post until I hit “post” on mine.

I agree we can and do get “bitten” when we trust, because if we DON’T trust we cannot get close to another human being. I agree 100% on that and when we do trust and love and get close, and that person THEN betrays us it is a BODY SLAM and a SOUL RAPE.

It happens. But at the same time, I think I have (and maybe others too) have “overlooked” red flags in my desire to be close to others, have trivalized behavior that WAS not just “human failures” and then over looked those behaviors yet again and again, and in essence, DELUDED MYSELF that this person deserved my trust when they obviously didn’t.

Recently (late december) one of my sons lied to me. I went into a melt down because I DID TRUST HIM, but after the initial melt down,, I started doing a “post mortem” on the relationship and I realized this was NOT THE FIRST TIME he had lied to me, or the first time he had shown disrespect to me, or the first time he had been duped by his P-brother into treating me badly. I realized that he had “teamed up”with several psychopaths as a “dupe” to treat me badly, and each time when it had come to a “bad result” for him as well as me, I had layed 100% of the BLAME for his behaivor on to the psychopath duping him. Well, he has found out what a psychopath is and knows what a psychopath is and he knows I WILL NOT TOLERATE LIES any more, and guess what, there is NO ONE TO BLAME FOR HIS LIES EXCEPT HIM.

In truth, there never had been. He was a VOLUNTEER in these psychopathic-led groups, he joined of his own, free, adult will and made his own choices. No one had to go too far to con him because for wahtever reason of his own, he wanted to join forces with these people against my good.

Back during the last and biggest P-attack, he KNEW that the Trojan Horse Psychopath had control of my cell phoone account and was messing with it, running up hundreds of dollars in bills, and turning it off and on and that I was helpless to do anythingn about it. He KNEW that the TH-P was ordering things on my credit cards and having them shipped to my house, and he did NOTHING TO STOP THIS ILLEGAL ATTACK ON ME, his mother. I asked him about it after it was all over and he said lamely, “I told him he shouldn’t do it.” DID HE WARN ME? Nope! DID HE CALL THE LAW? Nope!

Yet, I gave him back COMPLETE TRUST afterwards. I went to his corner to help him financially and emotionally..,..AGAIN. Like I had all the other times when he had joined with his brother P to attack me or knew his P-brother was breaking the law and robbing our friends and us as well. DID HE TELL US? NOPE! So what made me trust him when the RED FLAGS WERE WAVING? Because I wanted to believe and trust him, and I gave him trust which he had NOT EARNED. So, I got bitten for IGNORING THE RED FLAGS.

I trust my adoptive son D 110% because he has NEVER BETRAYED THAT TRUST. If he does betray my trust by lying to me, he knows that I would never trust him again. Because he loves me, I trust that he will NOT betray that trust and I have SEEN NO RED FLAGS in the past or present. If I see a red flag, we will immediately discuss it. If he did betray my trust, I would be devestated for a while, I know that, but I would go on, just as I have with the other family betrayals and the betrayals by others I loved.

I’m making a life for MYSELF and SHARING my life with those that have proven trustworthy. Once is an event, two or more is a pattern. Keep looking for the patterns. (((hugs))))

Philomena says

“How can one really love or really connect with another person without trust?”

Trust is integral to a healthy relationship. Unfortunately I gave my trust away to someone who did not earn it nor deserve it. As soon as I met him I went on oxytocin overload. I never questioned anything about him, his actions (OR LACK OF)… I just blindly trusted him and had this false belief that he surely must be like me – afterall arent all people innately good and decent and want the best for others??? I learned through meeting him that NO not all people can be trusted. Only certain ones who want to earn others trust by treating them right consistently, and respectfully and honestly and openly. They DO exist, they ARE out there.

“and How does one plan for or work towards a future with another person without trust- ”

You dont. You plan and work toward a future with another with trust. Trust that not only you give but that which they offer by their actions, not their words. Theres no weird feelings, or uncomfortable onesidedness with people who keep their word.

“If being able to trust and believe in others is also what makes us vulnerable to being targeted and victimized- what is the answer?”

HAVE BOUNDARIES. Trust yourself first. Know yourself first. Know what the red flags are. Be aware. Dont let things slide, or go… When self-respect, self-love, self-awareness is at its best – we dont let others mess with us because we just know what we deserve in relationships now.

“How does one live without believing in their dreams how does one live without the ability to trust? How does one live without hope?”

My dreams are different now. My dreams are more realistic. I fine-tuned my dream to include me being more aware of whats out there, and that evil AND GOODNESS can be found out there. I trust, and I expect my trust to be earned now — I rely on actions in my newfound dreams — not just promises or words.. Living without hope is not an option for me — there is always hope for a better day — because it always comes. The process is painful but SO WORTH IT —

My dreams are less about prince charming and more about taking care of myself , relying on myself and sharing my life with friends and my happiness with others who like to learn and grow… not control and be destructive.

Dear LTL,

HERE! HERE!!! GREAT POST!!!!! TOWANDA!!!! SILVER SKILLET AWARD!!!!!!

LTL….I SECOND THE HERE! HERE! Emotion! …want to include ERIN B and OXY in this too!! you guys all say the ulltimate strong enlightened powerful women statements!

It is my goal to be one!

Oxy and Aeylah – that put a smile on my face…and Aeylah every single one of us here are here because we found the strength to reach out and desire to be enlightened and you are more powerful than you realize!

Also, Philomena, I just wanted to say to you that the way you are feeling and the questioning of trust and the way you viewed the world vs the way you are viewing it/questioning it now — is EXACTLY what I went through. I just didnt want to minimize what you are feeling…its very real and transformational to realize what they brought into our life – and what it means going forward. But its not the end…its just a new beginning and a different better stronger way to go forward.

Every now and then I also share about my son here at LF. Tonight Im asking for prayers as he has come down with a severe stomach virus circulating in our area… we are battling keytones from his Diabetes, following sick-day rules and sick day dosing rules, but he is unable to keep fluids in him and Im sensing we have to go to hospital to get him through this.

Oxy on a scale of 1 to 10 – this is about an 8 for me. Simply because I cant get him to keep anything in him and need to dose insulin to get rid of keytones. Thank you all for keeping him in your prayers tonight. I will try to check in later.

Dear LTL,
Sending you much healing thoughts and prayer for you and your son. I hope he recovers quickly with out much pain….remain the strong loving powerful woman you are, but remember also to take care of your self.
(((hugs)))),
Aeylah

Dear LTL,

Sweetie I hope all is well, I hate for you to have to go to hospital, but I bet’ya’ that an IV will fix him right up. I know you’ve had a long hard road with all of this, hang tough and PLEASE LET US KNOW BEFORE YOU GO TO BED HOW HE IS! Love, Oxy

I don’t understand this woman. In my opinion, she was quite irresponsible. It takes some time to get to know someone, especially if you want to have a baby.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

A couple of things to respond to here:

first,
elizabeth conley said: ‘Some people drift through life like jellyfish. Their victims are stung, and sometimes killed and devoured, while the predator does little more than drift with the tide.’

I think Elizabeth’s analogy is spot on.

I ave been stung by jellyfish several times. their ‘protection’ system is innate, and even when the ‘tendrils’ are disconnected from their bodies, they continue to sting. they are often transparent and invisible in the water or tangled in sea grass – almost impossible to distinguish in the environment.

I became very alert to jellyfish – found out more about them – how to spot them, their seasons of concentration, became vigilant in their environment, carried a kit i made up to deal with stings, talked about getting stung, which caused others who had been stung to share their stories, also.

second,
i listened to a radio interview with a judge who has recently published a book about divorce court and the welfare of children. he made a very strong point: that the ‘speed’ with which people are connecting via the internet, and are consequently often unsuited, is raising the divorce rate.

now, he wasn’t speaking of spaths (unfortunately didn’t even mention spaths in his analysis of the sort of trauma and drama he sees between divorcing parents), but the SPEED comment really struck me.

it’s one of the key ingredients of the love bomb’s effectiveness.

Nicolaid,

I think that part of the problem with sociopaths is that we think we know them until we find out that don’t.

We are seduced, conned and manipulated into believing the illusion they present-

How long must someone know someone to say I have known themlong enough? How do I know when I know someone well enough? –

As we begin to notice that they are not who we believed them to be – who they presented themselves as being-(and who we believed, loved, and now want to hold on to the belief that they really are,- and who we want and wait and hope for them to be again) we check and doubt ourselves and make excuses and become part of- a tool- in our own deception…..I look back and go over and over everything that happened- and I think to myself- I should have known- how could I have not known? and yet somewhere in me I still sometimes don’t know- I was involved with the sociopath for almost 8 years and he pursued me (and chipped away at my autonomy, and perceptions, and my internal reservations) for nearly 4 of those years before I committed to him and believed that we were really going to build a life together…Did I know him long enough? I believed him and I trusted him- maybe it was because I wanted to-maybe it was because the dream he offered me was too much what I had always wanted to not take the risk….con artists offer the carrot of the illusion of something we want or need (or create or awaken the want or need or hope in us)- otherwise we couldn’t be conned and wouldn’t put up with the disconnects. By the time I realized that it (he) was an illusion and I began to really see the truth, I was in so far that I couldn’t bear the pain of really allowing myself to know or accept that it (he) wasn’t real- that there was nothing I could do to make it(him) real- so I kept trying and it got worse-I lost not only my dreams and hope for the future- I lost my self respect, my trust in myself and my world, my friends, my community, my self- not to mention the many physical and practical losses. So, I don’t know what her story is and why she trusted him- but before I will judge her or blame her for having been conned and harmed, I need to look at myself- I too should have known-the clues were there.

Never forget…..they are everywhere…….

“We are seduced, conned and manipulated into believing the illusion they present-”

Good call Philomena!!

There are 5 million out there. You can’t see them coming although the notion of a tatto on the forehead makes sense…

If we had known then what we know now, many of us would have done differently. But that is the way it is.

So now that we know, we have to retake our self esteem. Its a renewable thing.

Can we not look at ourselves and say WOW! What a great job I have done to get it and start turning my life around?

I can tell that story. I can own my success. It doesn’t matter how long it took or what I paid to get HERE, I did it.

I’m here. And I am part of a community of wise, kindred souls who understand my story as I can theirs.

What’s the downside?

What was before getting to the place that brought me here, is no more.

I have a new story now. And it says that I am strong, decisive and educated. That I have a vision about where I want to go in life and that I can find the support I need to get there.

And it isn’t just my story. It is the story of this place.
And I think, it has happy endings…:)

Good Morning Everyone

I was in the shower this morning thinking of all the things I would like to say to the xS (which of course I will not, but it would feel good). I was thinking of how they are unable to feel guilt, remorse, love etc and I thought, wouldnt it be great if someone did come up with a way to reorder their brains. You know, some shock treatment and a few shots.
But, if there was, and it was done, the S/P/N’s would be so flooded with so much remorse, guilt etc for all the things they have done in their lifetime that they would probably go into a deep depression and end up killing themselves!
Hey, maybe I am onto something here, mass exodus of all aholes!
well……a girl can dream can’t she?

I have those conversations too.
Most of them amount to AND HERE IS YOUR SHARE OF THE EXPENSES!!!!!!!!!!!

In my fantasy, he reaches for cash.

Sigh. Yeah, A girl can dream.

Going for EMDR this am. Wonder if it works the way I have heard it does- like the flashy thingy in Men In Black.

Wash him out of my hair ?! And mind!

Sigh again. The hell of it was, it could have been all that. All he had to be was real. In any direction.

Maybe we will get lucky and the Aliens will come pick them all up? I’ve had that idea before and the more I think about it, the more it makes me think about wearing a tin foil hat with intent.

Then when people ask me what I am doing, I can tell them about spaths and they will want their own hat……

HMMMM, think I will get FM in my fillings?

“I may be a self-help expert, but I’m not a psychic,” Salmansohn, 49, said. “It was a great surprise that he broke his emotional and financial commitment.”

Does this surprise any of us LF readers? I think not – would there WERE a giant crystal ball/oracle to consult.

All we have is our “gut-instinct” – and these lessons learned not only the hard way, but THE hardest way…*sighs*

I wish her the best of luck (and I didn’t read the comments at the article, either; like EC said, those would have merely ticked me off.)

~j~

Even Robert Hare has said he believes he could still be conned by a P– maybe not as easily as someone else but still possible.

Maybe that is one of the lurking dangers-to believe that knowing more protects us from being conned again is a self deception. It may keep us from being conned in the same way or maybe makes it less likely- but it does not make us immune….perhaps the better we are at seeing the red flags maybe we just pass over the less skilled P’s and then in the belief that we can now tell who is a P we just attract and can be conned by even more skilled predators….

Hi philomela,

I don’t think we have enough information to tell whether the man is a sociopath or not.

Anyway, IMO, the relationship was a very artificial one from day 1. I understand that her biological clock was ticking, but having a baby is a serious matter and it needs to be carefully planned. You just can’t wake up one day at 49, meet a complete stranger and ask him immediatly to father your baby. I don’t see any emotional bond there. She could as well have used donor insemination.

She argues that his financial investment proves that he was apparently sincere. I believe it rather shows that 10 000$ is nothing more than pocket money for someone who is a millionaire.

Moreover, this man was married and cheating on his wife. You can hardly expect a cheating husband to be truthful to his word. At least, you should be cautious.

Male and female sexual lives are inherently different. Both are prone to various self-deceptions. I believe it is inappropriate to label a man a sociopath because he is promiscuous (although many sociopaths are promiscuous) or because he finally decides to back off after a while.

Best regards

I think education is key…..
NOT necessarily from being conned…..but recognizing it before it get’s too damaging.
Being able to ‘justify’ the pulling away, cutting off or stopping contact with a toxic person.
Allowing ourselves to NOT trust everyone….and realizing there are peeps out there that operate in a harmful, exploitative fashion…..ONLY to cause harm.

Education and awareness isn’t prevention…….it’s another tool to allow us to see what ‘s REALLY going on.

I saw this in a child this weekend…..and we talked about it again last night….how he recognizes splitting behaviors in a friend….and how the 3rd triangle friend is coping…..(upset)

He would have fell for it a few years ago….without this education his father threw us into……
He would have continued to trust and been hurt…..having questions…..and being confused…

NOW….with the education…..he pulled back, saw the pattern and didn’t take it personally….but can now protect himself from someone he thought was a friend.

It didn’t prevent damage…..but it prevented FURTHER damage.

When I was a member of a 12 step group, years ago, One member or another would often note that people tend to say what they most need to hear. A therapist told me that, in her opinion, many people were drawn to the feild of psychology in an effort to fix him/herself.(I know that’s a generalization and isn’t always true.) Who would be most likely to write a self-help book? Probably someone who understood the issues, and had to some extent, tackled them and won. But here’s the clincher: Even if we work on ourselves, try very, very hard to over-come oue inate tendancys, we can’t ever assume they aren’t still a part of our charactor. That’s why, I think, we have to continue, always to be teachable.
I’m glad you’re all here, and that I’m here, too.

Nicolaid,

I don’t think I have enough info to make a judgment about either of their behavior or what happened between them – I make no judgment about what happened- I do not have enough information-nor do I wish to label either of them with the little bit of tabloid type info I have.

My only point was that just because someone is a “self-help guru” doesn’t mean they are immune from being conned or that they don’t deserve compassion and care if they get conned. And, if making bad choices and having blind spots and perhaps sometimes doing things for the wrong reasons meant that someone was not entitled to compassion and care when victimized- then I do not deserve compassion or care either- I am human and fallible- I make mistakes, sometimes exercise bad judgment, sometimes I am selfish, and I have dreams and wants and desires and sometimes those cloud my vision and my judgment-

It is like in the traditional “blame the victim” rape scenario where victims were blamed because they wore a short skirt, or walked down a dark street alone, or got drunk, or worse invited their rapist (formerly known to them as their date) in for a cup of coffee- and are then told that their “bad” judgment or even “bad” character made them responsible for having been victimized-

The faults of the victim do not justify or excuse the perpetrator /predator from responsibility and blame for his actions—No matter how many bad choices or stupid actions the victim made, it still required the presence and actions of a predator/perpetrator to make that person a victim- until then they were just a person making bad choices.

It is easier to find fault and point fingers of blame towards “victims” for having brought the harm on themselves and view them as “other” than ourselves, than it is to live with the uncertainty and knowledge that “bad things do happen to good people”, and and also to your average OK people, and to bad people too. Sometimes cons get conned- sometimes people do bad things and it comes back at them-
But, compassion for being victimized should not require that the victim was a perfect person, or never did something they perhaps shouldn’t have done. One shouldn’t have to be perfect before they can receive empathy and compassion for having been victimized. They idea that anyone deserves to be victimized only empowers and helps perpetrators and predators.

Each of us has vulnerabilities that may be unique to us- perhaps yours aren’t the same as mine- and I have yet to meet a perfect person….and, I believe we can all be conned (and we can also all engage in self-deception and bad judgment) in the right circumstances.

So, would I have made the same choices (as presented by you) in terms of being involved with a married man and choosing to trust him and have a child with him in those circumstances?- probably not-

Do I think it was bad judgment on her part?- probably.

Does that mean she wasn’t or couldn’t also have been conned and victimized?- no-

If she was in fact conned and victimized, do her “bad” choices mean she doesn’t deserve compassion and instead deserves blame and contempt and that the predator/conman (if he is one) should be let of the hook? no.

Pointing to the flaws of the victim(for the purpose of blaming rather than self awareness) instead focusing on the actions of the perpetrator is a diversion from the issue.

Very good points, Philomea.

When I read this article I wasnt sure who was the victim and who was the perpertrator…just wasnt enough information.

It did cross my mind could both be responsible for making unhealthy choices – causing eachother to put blame on the other. (can that happen in life?)

A self-help guru is one thing…but Salmonsohn wrote a book on Prince Harming so I questioned when the book was written because the author seemed so well versed about these types of partners. I found this pubilshed in 2007. (The article above states she met this man last August.. August 2009.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karen-salmansohn/prince-harming-syndrome_b_71432.html

http://www.amazon.com/Prince-Harming-Syndrome-Relationship-Essentials/dp/084370926X/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

I believe its unclear who conned who. Or exactly what took place in deals and arrangements that were made. Who may have been in love and who might not have been. Who wanted what from the relationship.

Im not comfortable assessing that he is the perpetrator and she is the victim. Im just not. Nor am I comfortable assessing she is the victim and he is the perpetrator. Just not enough information.

My compassion goes to his wife.

And if its true she did NOT know he was married then I have compassion for her being victimized in that way. But it seems to state that she knew he was married but filing…and then finding out he never filed. And at one point he stated to her ” I wish aliens would come down and take my “WIFE” so I could be with you… indicating she did know he was married and chose to get involved with him.

I agree with so many things Philomena states and points out. Really very true…about the victim and compassion and/or blame, etc…

Im just not convinced it holds true for this particular story. My gut was swirling with red flags for some reason — about BOTH parties involved. Isnt that odd… I guess theres just not enough info. but it didnt sit right with me.

Hi Guys….
🙂
Back from court…….
The other ‘victim’ of Soc #2 & 3 was there…..(both of us duped bus. associates)…..
We joked…..after the judgement…..with the sheriff…..we are the EB and Bonnie bounty hunters….
NOT so far fetched!
🙂

SO heres the rundown….
First off….both NO SHOWS! WOOSIES!
I was called first…..judge had a smirk he couldn’t hide…..I probably did too…..I’m sure!
He went through the speel……about the hearing not able to move forward, because they were not here to be questioned for discovery of assets.
That he was required, as they were both served and confirmed served….he was required to issue a bench warrant, UNLESS…..I opposed…..
Smirk again,,,,,NO YOUR HONOR, I would appreciate that greatly!!! (gasp from the courtroom?????)
Yeah, folks….I’m a ball buster and I want the dude castrated…in jail or out…..YES FOLKS THAT”S WHY I”M HERE….NO MORE BREAKS!!!
He said….if nothing further…..we stand……I said….Yes, your honor, one more thing….May I ask that bail be set in the amount of my judgement and fees/interest….he said….wow, great idea. I will not rule on that now, but I’m going to take it under advisement, check statute…..but I think given these peeps history, this may be the only way you can get your judgement paid. Youv’e done all the right steps and I think this is feesable, so I need to check law and I will let you know.

THANK YOU YOUR HONOR! Smirk.
(wonder what the gaspers were thinking then?)

Next case…..Victim #2
The judge got sarcastic…..calling and looking around courtroom for Mr S #2 Mrs. S #3…..are you here…..this may seem redundant, but I’m doing it maybe for kicks….?
Victim #2 was immediatly awarded her max. judgement……and filed the next step…..

I waited in courtroom until her case was heard…..to send a message to the judge…..that….we ain’t done yet! We WILL FOLLOW through…..can you please help us from your angle…..
He got it.
I wasn’t shocked…..
I advised Victim #2, to make statements of ‘WHO’ this guy is…..plant seeds……and give the judge all the info he needed to know these two are CONS….and PRO at it!
She did GREAT!!!!!!

So….high five out of the courtroom…..bench warrants issued……and on to debt collection…. project hard nosed.

Another successful day in court!!!!!!! FOR TWO!

LOVE IT!

🙂

one/joy_step_at_a_time

EBEEEEE!!!!!

GO ERIN GO ERIN GO ERIN!!!!!!!!!!!!

I AM CHUCKLING ALOUD IN A PUBLIC PLACE – YOU KNOW, THAT DEEP SATISFIED CHUCKLE.

GOOD. ON. YOU. ALL!!

THE JUDGE IS GREAT.

wink wink, nudge nudge, snicker, snicker. Licks finger makes invisable mark in air. Yay, EB.

Your story renews my faith in Santa Claus! Holy toledo- that is WELL DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@EB… you are fabulous!!!

EB —

Thats a high ten! Both hands raised in the air! High ten to you girl!!!! TOWANDA! xoxo

Ya’ll inspire me!!!!!!

I’m so glad that I am able and willing to fight like hell…..

Victim #2 said she was going to turn her debt over to a collectin agency, but if I’m going to fight like she has seen me, and encourage her like i have…..she’d rather see me collect the debt and she’d give it to me.
Was I interested!?!?! Uhhhhhh, do this AND get paid…..yeah!
She said, it’s not about the money for her….it’s about protecting the ‘next’ person……
I told her she has learned so much and grown so much from this incident…..she smiled and said….yeah, lessons I never knew existed!

This is when Im glad for my journey…..this is the GOOD that comes from our lessons…..what we can teach others…..and hope the message gets passed along.

Thanks guys for your support….!!!!

Chimin’ in….good for you EB!!!

My xs used to say revenge will be sweet…(little b-tard)

I bet yours feels 10 times sweeter than theirs will ever be!!!

@ Philomela,

According to you, there is a clear-cut distinction in this story between a « victim » and a « perpetrator », but I don’t think we have enough elements to draw such conclusions. When a man (or a woman) decides at the last minute to back off from a mariage or any other important commitment, it doesn’t necessarily mean that her/his bride was conned or deliberately made to scurry around like chicken all along.

You are ready to acknowledge that the woman is human and fallible, but you don’t seem willing to grant those flaws to the man. Maybe he sincerely believed he wanted to live with this woman and have a child, then had misgivings, but didn’t dare to open up because he was faced with the woman’s enthousiasm. Maybe he behaved like a coward, unable to make a decision until he was told that she was pregnant. His behaviour may be explained by many motives : weakness, irresponsibility, rashness, lack of consciousness, second thoughts. Maybe he discovered she had some dark tendancies ; we don’t know.

There is a difference between the occasional asshole or jackass, which most people sometimes are, and the destructive, egotistical, intentional behaviour of the people who are featured on this website. I don’t see clear evidence of ill-intent here. A con has a goal (money, sex, whatever). But this guy was not interested in money and he could easily have found a sexual partnership without getting involved in this crazy baby business. So it’s hard to tell. Maybe he felt guilty and distressed by what eventually happened, too. This relationship was bizarre and complex. There’s no white and black distinction IMO. I don’t think it’s fair to say that the woman is « human and fallible » but that the man is a « con » or a « predator » when they both apparently behaved like teenagers. We need more information, we need to hear the man’s point of view to have a clearer picture of what happened. The judge will tell.

Nicolaid,

I think you misread or misunderstood what I wrote- I think we are in agreement-

What I said is that I do not have enough information to make any judgment about anyone’s behavior or intent in this case.

Then I went on to express my concern that I felt you were saying that even is she had been victimized that she deserved it, or should have known, and was worthy of condemnation rather than compassion for 2 reasons- 1) her bad choices and possible “greediness/neediness” and 2) that she was a self help guru and so should have been more aware and self aware.- this is a difficult one because we all women or men at all levels of awareness still sometimes engage in self-deception, bad behavior, make bad choices, act with cowardice, etc….and if that meant we deserved harm from others then all of us could probably be seen as deserving whatever harm we got….

My use of “she’ is just because she is a “she” and because it is in my experience more common that the victim is the woman- or maybe that is my bias because I am a woman. Either way you can rewrite what I wrote and substitute “he” for “she”- my only point is that being human and fallible whether a man or a woman- It is certainly possible that in this case he was the “victim” and she was the perpetrator, or that neither of them was a “victim”- I truly don’t have enough information to make that call. which is what I think you are saying in your last post- so I think we are in agreement on this.

ErinBrock:

Greetings from our nation’s capital. Congrats on your victory. When you manage to use the legal system against these…non-humans…it is sooooo very satisfying, isn’t it? I have had such fun using the tax code against my S-ex. To say nothing of using the legal system against him. All those holders of unsatisfied judgments against S-ex. Never thought they’d collect a dime. Then Mighty Matt came along and told them where he worked, the name of his boss, etc so they could garnish his wages, and, if they were in the mood for a bit more…personal contact…a list of his personal property (jewelry, furs, artwork, etc) and where the could find it.

Not to imply that I’m yet finished with S-ex. I’ve got a little something up my sleeve that will probably cost him his job and get him sent back to prison.

And I’ve been able to accomplish all this from the comfort of home.

I had another little fantasy today I want to share, I am at a very cruel stage so I hope you can relate.
I come into a large amount of cash, like lotto size. It would be the only time I contact him, only to tell him of my fortune and rub in what a loser he really is. Then when he so badly wants back in so he can get some of it just NC again. lol, sorry but all these sick little dreams are making my day : )

Knowledgeempowers, Yeah I know that fantacy intimately…I’ve had it, too.

The sheriff suggested before I garnish his jailhouse bank account…..send him a ‘snickers’…..on me!

I think it’s just fine to have these fantasy’s……sometimes it’s all we need to keep us going.

🙂

Erin, so happy for your achievements today! I hope you are really enjoying this victory! Well done! You go girl! Love to see some positive come out of all your struggles!!

EB…..Congratulations! you scored one for all!!

loved reading your account….pictured it all in my mind!

you are trully one strong woman…. mean busines and no one should mess with!

((H))

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