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By | April 18, 2011 55 Comments

The fallout from one woman’s lies

Crystal Mangum, 32, is in the news again. You may not have heard her name, but you probably recall her notoriety. She’s the exotic dancer who accused Duke University lacrosse players of gang rape on March 13, 2006.

Why is she in the news? Well, two weeks ago, Mangum allegedly stabbed her boyfriend, Reginald Daye, 46, in the chest during an argument.  A few days ago, the man was taken off of life support and died.

This isn’t the first time that Mangum has been in trouble. A year ago, she was arrested for assaulting a different boyfriend, setting his clothes on fire in a bath tub, and threatening to stab him. She did this in front of her three children (none of whom were fathered by the boyfriends), and while two police officers were in the apartment. Although the children were not injured, she was found guilty of misdemeanor child abuse and damaging property.

But let’s get back to the case that made Crystal Mangum famous, or infamous.

Duke Lacrosse case

Mangum and another woman were hired to be strippers at a party hosted by captains of the Duke lacrosse team. Mangum, who is African American, claimed she was gang-raped by 20 white guys. Later she changed her story to say it was three white guys. She was asked to identify her assailants from photos several times, and never came up with the same three guys. She continued to change her story—estimates of the number of different tales she told to police range from five to 12. And the other exotic dancer, from the beginning, said that Mangum was not assaulted at all.

Mangum was an incredibly unreliable witness. But Duke University faculty members, called the “Group of 88,” took out a full-page ad in the student newspaper, the Chronicle, called, “What does a social disaster sound like?” The ad decried racism, sexism and upscale sports on campus, and implied that Mangum’s accusations were true. Even the Chronicle condemned the ad as, “radical, inflammatory discourse.”

The Durham County District Attorney, Michael Nifong, went ahead and filed charges against three lacrosse players, all white males. In fact, Nifong even withheld DNA evidence that proved Mangum had sexual contact with multiple men—none of whom were the lacrosse players.

In the meantime, various advocacy organizations and the national media jumped onboard. The entire incident was portrayed as a racial hate crime, anti-feminist sexism, wealth vs. poverty, even conservatives vs. liberals, depending on who was pontificating.

Eventually, the case fell apart. The North Carolina attorney general not only dropped the charges against the students, but took the extraordinary step of declaring them innocent.

“Troubled” Crystal Mangum

Crystal Mangum actually came out with a book in 2008. Here’s how the book was promoted in a press release:

The Last Dance for Grace: The Crystal Mangum Story is the only definitive account of the life and struggles of the woman at the center of the Duke Lacrosse case, the alleged accuser. Were it not for the Duke Lacrosse Case, she likely would be described as a bright, young woman from Durham, North Carolina, who has had a difficult life. Like so many of us, Crystal has made mistakes and has struggled to make amends. Her biggest mistake just happened to lead to one of the most controversial legal cases in American history.

Well, that’s the hype. Another account on FoxNews.com describes Mangum’s life as “troubled.”

Back in 1993, when she was 14 years old, Mangum claimed that she was raped, and her family members still disagree on whether it actually happened. A few years later she married and accused her husband of threatening to kill her, which he denied. Mangum failed to appear in court, and the charges were dismissed. She started working as a stripper in 2002. She stole a customer’s car keys while giving him a lap dance, sped off in his car while intoxicated, and almost ran over a cop.

Mangum has a history of mental problems, and was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, according to the Raleigh News and Observer. There is a link between bipolar disorder and sociopathy. Dr. Liane Leedom writes that people who are bipolar may exhibit sociopathic traits when they are manic.

Many mental health professionals do not like to diagnose women as sociopaths—in fact, a lot of women who are diagnosed as borderline are probably sociopaths. So given the overlap between bipolar disorder and sociopathy, maybe the diagnosis in this case was wrong. Maybe Crystal Mangum is a sociopath.

Aftermath

The really shocking thing about this case is how much trouble and trauma were cause by one individual who lied. Here is part of what happened in the aftermath of the Duke Lacrosse case:

  • The three accused lacrosse players were suspended from Duke.
  • The remainder of the Duke lacrosse season was cancelled.
  • The lacrosse coach resigned, but later sued the university.
  • District Attorney Michael Nifong resigned and was disbarred.
  • The New York Times and other media outlets were criticized for sloppy journalism and rushing to conclusions.
  • The three accused players racked up millions of dollars in legal bills.
  • The accused players filed lawsuits against Duke, the city of Durham and the police.
  • Duke settled the lawsuits—although the amount was not disclosed, one estimate was $50 million.
  • Duke lacrosse players who where not accused also filed lawsuits against the university, the city, the district attorney and others.

There’s much more, and you can read the whole story in the Wikipedia summary of the case.

So here’s the bottom line: The combination of pathological liars and hot-button issues—like racism, sexism and rape—can be catastrophic. That’s why it is so important for people in positions of authority to refrain from rushing to judgment, and to take the time to thoroughly investigate claims of guilt and innocence.

Lovefraud readers who have been falsely accused by sociopaths certainly understand this. Somehow, we have to get the message out to all those people who need to understand it but don’t—like cops, child protection caseworkers, prosecutors, judges and the media.

 


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Ox Drover

This woman has done “ba-zillions” of dollars in damages to the lives of others as well as Duke University, and untold “bazillions” of EMOTIONAL COINAGE to untold numbers of victims and family members….disrupted lives from the bottom up, and he is labeled as “troubled”??????? TROUBLED???? Yea, she’s led a TROUBLED LIFE, all right, she has TROUBLED everyone she has come into contact with me thinks and hopefully now she will be taken out of the circulation in the free world and put behind bars where she won’t be as likely to destroy more lives.

I totally agree with Dr. Leedom about the bi-polar being a frequent dual diagnosis with “psychopathy”—and ADHD is also a frequent diagnosis as well, but it is not a case of “one OR the other” but just as many times psychopaths are ALSO drug addicts or alcoholics, but if you treat the addiction or other mental illness, they are STILL a psychopath…they MAY be a little better “in control” if the bi-polar, ADHD, or addictive problem is under control but they are still a psychopath with the lack of empathy, the feelings of entitlement, and the lack of impulse control. Having ONE DIAGNOSIS does NOT preclude having one or more other diagnoses at the same time any more than me having pneumonia would preclude me also having diabetes, high blood pressure or kidney disease. In fact, there are many diagnoses which sort of tend to “go together” and are FREQUENTLY found in the same individual. Psychopathy, bi-polar, ADHD and addiction are four of those. Some have 1, some 2, some 3, or even all 4 at once.

raggedy ann

Is there any data anywhere on these correlations? I can see impulsivity being a characteristic they have common, but it doesn’t indicate how much or how common of an overlap there is in people, and impulsivity is definitely not something I associate with every type of sociopath.

Ox Drover

R-Ann, there has been some data accumulated that show that there are some correlations between ADHD, Bi-polar, and psychopathy. Since a lot of the “symptoms” of each of those things “over lap” (like ADHD kids and adults seem to be more impulsive and act without a lot of advance planning etc, that is kind of like the psychopath who a lot of them act without a lot of advance planning, BUT some do have a LOT OF ADVANCE PLANNING…but they don’t put any brakes on the “impulse” to rape or whatever, they just PLAN ON HOW TO DO IT. I might have the “impulse” to rob a bank to get money but I am NOT GOING TO ALLOW MYSELF TO ACT ON IT….an ADHD person might have that impulse and act on it immediately as he drove by a bank without any advance planning, or a psychopath might just get the impulse then start planning on doing it. So there are all kinds of mixes in how “impulses” are acted on or not.

The psychopath that I call “the Trojan Horse Psychopath” was professionally diagnosed and treated for BI-polar, ADHD and was professionally diagnosed as Anti-Social Personality Disorder AND he was also an addict. So he had the quadruple whammy, with 4 diagnoses– any ONE of which would have been a problematic diagnosis. My son C is ADHD but not psychopath and I don’t think he is bi-polar but he does have some problems with depression….which since he is not willing to be treated for is neither here nor there. My P-son doesn’t seem to have ADHD at all, no signs and as far as adult bi-polar signs I actually haven’t been around him enough to see any signs of it..my egg donor’s brother my Uncle Monster I think was bi-polar and psychopathic but also an alcoholic as well. So there are various combinations of symptoms but also more than one diagnosis that can be applied to the different actors. I hope that makes some sense.

What happens though a lot of times is that people will say “Oh, John is not so bad when he is not drinking…if he would just get some treatment for his drinking/drugging he would be a nice guy”—but the truth is that even if he gets sober, he will still be a psychopath, just a sober one.

This doesn’t surprise me whatsoever, but it does sicken me, yet again. The similarities with my sister’s woeful tales are palpable.

When she was 12 she accused a neighbor of “kissing her all over”, getting my mother to rush home (an hour and a half commute) and ultimately get this man convicted. A few years later when a cousin confided that she was raped when she was 14, my sister had suddenly been raped instead, using it to relate to the true victim and win the battle for the most sympathy; afterall, she was only 12. Several of us doubt the validity of even the initial story she told.

Then when she was 13 she was stalked ”“ by different people as it changed according to circumstances and whom she told, and the stalking theme pervades her life to this day, albeit with completely different stalkers. By the way, these various stalkers committed horrific acts that included killing animals, the first and possibly most notable of which was a mutilated rabbit found in our mailbox out front. Mysterious animal suffering and deaths are also a running theme since childhood, in addition to those that witnesses actually saw her kill.

In her early 20s while a fiancé (one of several back then) was attempting to break off his engagement to her, she sliced her own arm with a knife and ran to him claiming she’d been attacked in the woods beside the beach by 3 menacing men who were still out to get her. People being “out to get her” is also a running theme.

She has been eliciting pity from loads of folks to her supreme advantage since I can remember, seriously, as far back as toddlerhood, if not earlier. The most consistent villains were my mother and I, who, being strong & optimistic, and dare I say compassionate women, my sister could often play that against us, making herself out to be the poor little victim.

Promiscuous, oh yeah. Sexually active since at least age 12, at least 3 abortions that I know of, sleeping with bosses and convicts, and all the while actually referring to herself as “Miss Molly Moral”, vociferously passing judgment on anyone who appeared a trifle “easy”, and even painting actually prudish people as “loose”.

Addictions, oh yeah. They tend to go hand-in-hand as reckless behavior. For her, alcohol, prescription pills, and who knows what else. And bulimia. Typical of a psychopath/sociopath to satiate oneself and then just purge it to maintain a figure.

There’s so very much more, quite a bit of which I’ve discovered only over the last few years that have confirmed my suspicions. Many people around her have no idea about much of this, or know some of it and feel sorry for her.

Oh, and she’s a felony arsonist, too. Actually manipulated the arresting officers into recommending probation instead of prison, which they did, so she never served time nor satisfied requirements for conditional release.

She’s been abused, neglected, attacked, stalked, and persecuted all her life” except that she hasn’t, but has indeed done so to unsuspecting targets, many of whom get the blame.

The judicial system and the mainstream must be made aware of this affliction. It is just not OK ”“ to understate it ”“ for good & decent people and whole societies to suffer, often many times over, because of it.

skylar

Sociosibs,
If I hadn’t known a spath myself, I’d swear you were making it up. But unfortunately, I know you aren’t.
My own spath makes reality turn upside down.
ARGHH!!! and I wish he was my only one. I also have a brother spath and a sister spath. No, they don’t all kill, just the exP and the bro-P who has killed kittens and expressed wanting to kill sleeping elderly people.

What’s most interesting though is that you have a normal mom and you are normal. How did you get this type of sister?
Is your dad a spath?

My own parents are narcissists. that’s what created my bro and sis. I know there is a genetic component and a MEMETIC component. I’m very interested in hearing about that.

ErinBrock

I often wonder why more spaths don’t do their con game on a larger level.
Do they not know they can get away with it? Do they not have the confidence to take it ‘up’ a level?
Are they not sure they can pull it off?

Why do certain spaths take it to the top and other spaths are fine ‘nickel and diming’ (comparitively) the general public and those around them?
What is the difference in the minds of these sociopaths? Is it a larger ego? More confidence? More Gall? A better ‘business plan’ Or just opportunity due to circumstances?

Do people like this woman go into the night planning these accusations……..setting this up? Or get there and think….hmmmmmmm I could get away with this? And see dollar signs from these young students families?
Did these lacross players have a chance…….
Was their mistake drinking and bringing in a stripper/hooker and they just happened to call the wrong girl?

Or was she just waiting for ANY call…….like that customer in the strip club where she took his car?
was his downfall paying for a lap dance?

I just read an article about a dude in Reno
( http://www.rgj.com/article/20110418/NEWS/104170381/Churches-say-Reno-man-duped-them-Haiti-project?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE ) who bilked several communities and churches out of $$ from a rebuild Haiti project, it was interesting to read the side notes about how many people in reno knew this dude was a scammer…..yet nobody did a google search on him…..they just handed money over to him on the preface of he’s doing good. He’s still in the Reno area conducting himself as business as usual.
He had a non profit AND a for profit business set up……the non profit funded by the church folk and the non profit paid his for profit business for ‘consulting’ to the tune of $35K a month!!!!!!! And nobody asked questions? The money was just fed from N. Profit over to his for profit…….until the funding stopped and somebody asked…..HEY….why are there not any houses build yet?
No employees paid, no land purchased for homes……nothing but exhorbitant consulting fees monthly.

Why would someone like my business spath settle for 1K in fake business contract scams………when he could pull off a scam like this Reno dude?

Is it ‘better’ Networking, contacts, relationships, intellect or just plain opportunity?
WHAT?

Skylar,

Having found my father in my late 20s and come to know him, I am now convinced that he was at least a narcissist, if not a psychopath himself. I’m sure that a cousin of mine on his side is also a psychopath.

My father left us when my sister was 1 year old and I was not even 3, which turned out to be more of a blessing than a curse. Unfortunately my sister made up for the loss with her horrific antics, keeping chaos and sorrow fervently alive & well in our home, we just didn’t know what it was. She was and still is masterful at pitting people against one another, oftentimes my mother and myself against each other, so that those looking on would think we were the problem. We didn’t know then what we were up against.

I wouldn’t say that my mother’s side was especially “normal” either, but it is very large and I got to know most fairly well. She was one of 4 and her mother was one of 12, who held annual family parties and frequent other smaller get-togethers, so I am pretty much positive that there are no signs of similar personality disorders there. Although there were other dysfunctions, such as alcoholism as my grandfather was afflicted. He was a “benign”, brilliant, cranky, and unproductive alcoholic.

Having grown up the only daughter and eldest child in an alcoholic household, then marrying a man who would spawn 2 children and promptly abandon her, my mother stood strong and persevered, providing a good home and meeting our basic needs against all odds, all while forging forward optimistically, with a smile for everyone and a heart of gold.

Sorry that you ”“ and most of the folks here ”“ are suffering, too. And thank you for your affirmation as to the story. This is why I find it so crucial to raise awareness, so that we can be believed ”“ or at least listened to ”“ not just by those who’ve known the same, but also by those whose decisions can impact us.

skylar

(((sociosibs)))
it pains my heart to tell you, that no one believes this crap until they’ve had a taste of it. It’s unbelievable and the spaths KNOW THIS. that’s why the keep getting away with it.

Raising awareness serves one purpose: it tells human beings who HAVE experienced a spath, WHAT they have experienced. It shines a liight on the WTF? moment. Those who have not experienced or only heard stories, cannot conceptualize it. You and I both know the cognitive dissonance that is experienced when trying to make sense of the spath. Genetically we are born with our own narcissism: we think everyone is just like us. WRONG.

Worse yet, if we DID experience a spath sibling, parent or other relative, we still didn’t know what it was. It slimed us and we believe that their behavior is normal, until we figure out that it’s not.

I know I sound very depressing but I do have good news: the math is on our side. You see, the more spaths there are, then the more people are affected and consequently the more we will become aware and knowledgeable. Eventually, the tide has to turn against them. It’s just the mathmatical probability. Keep speaking out, that will quicken the pace.

Thank you for telling your story.

Erin,

“Is it ’better’ Networking, contacts, relationships, intellect or just plain opportunity?”

Probably any & all the above.

From my observation, some violations are planned, and some are violations of opportunity.

As for levels, other variables enter the scene.

For instance, my sister, while she can fake “good breeding” for short periods, is unable to sustain the appearance, despite having been raised around others with very good manners and hygienic habits. Also, while she is intellectually gifted and has some college, and can fool some people into thinking she knows more than she does for awhile, it doesn’t tend to stand up to scrutiny where it matters. As an example, this torturer & killer of animals has portrayed herself as an animal expert, if for no other reason than the sheer number of them that have passed through her life. She’s bred & trained dogs for years ”“ never successfully, but she’s able to shield that part from most others because nobody checks. And yet, when she left the state and moved clear across the country, the only job she could get with a veterinarian was as a receptionist. Really? But I thought she was an animal expert with an impressive portfolio.

Then there’s a house she destroyed and made money doing (one of 3, the first was by burning it down). She contaminated it with her filth and that of her neglected animals and repeatedly flooded it (no doubt by improper plumbing as neighbors reported she was connecting hoses to steal water from them). She kept blaming her neighbor for his filth contaminating her property, making some of her animals die and her daughter sick (one neighbor reported she was actually giving her daughter water to drink from another neighbor’s horse trough). When she realized that her neighbor wasn’t where the deep pockets were, and I’d guess someone who felt sorry for her clued her into the state’s real estate law, and she found that the realtor who sold her the house was incapacitated by terminal brain cancer, she sued him and won. I would say there was some premeditation and some just keeping an eye out for opportunity in this case.

While she hasn’t gone after the “big bucks” in one lump sum ”“ the most I know of at any one time is 40K ”“ I’ve estimated that she’s done rather well for herself: $40,000 x 3 plus about $250,000 by bleeding my mother dry over a span of 10 years (that is a conservative estimate). Btw, my mother wasn’t wealthy by any standards and worked very hard all her life, even while dying of cancer herself a few years ago.

skylar

Erin,
from my exPerience and study, I think it’s just a matter of luck and balls for spaths. Testosterone is probably a big factor, as is IQ. Put them together and you have what appears to be a lucky spath. Or, a very unlucky one who ran into a luckier one.

I have a spath bro, who is happy to live in my parents’ basement. He knows he will live for free until they die then he will get some amount of inheritance. after that, he will claim a disability, mental illness, I”m sure because he has studied the various ones and already claims mental illness. The rest of his life will be lived just getting by. Good enough for him.

ExP on the other hand, needs the constant fix of knowing he can maniuputate anyone. He ran away from home at age 12 and had to hustle to survive. Now he does it for fun? or is it just because he has that survival instinct?

We get programmed by our childhood.

ErinBrock

Hi SS:
My business spath was once a VP of Finance for a startup co and a ‘seed’ bank President of finance.

(the SEC investigated them…..and the FBI is ‘very’ interested also)…….

Point is…..he conned 6.5 mil out of folks…..now it’s reduced to a farmers market scam of $approx 250 each vendor.

What changed in him?
He’s a smart guy with a gift of gab…..he could easily come up with something better?

Although…..he lost his car, all his fancy clothes, watches etc………he seems to still get by.
The outer facade doesn’t look near as presentable…..but if one doesn’t look that close…..he’d keep you concentrated on his words…..not his shiney BMW and italian suits.

Your right though….eventually they don’t stand up in the circles they ‘run’ in.

I guess…..if we are to be targeted…..we are going to be targeted……and that’s just that!
If we are groomed……we must be armed with the resources to know we are being groomed and soon to enter the danger zone!!!!

ErinBrock

Skylar,
Once they have a plan…..it’s executing it and be done.
Lazy spaths……
Bored spaths……
or god forbid…..an motivated one…….

I see the ex as being a lazy one who developed a ‘game’ early which worked……and now sticks to the same schtick across the board. He doens’t change his game….and NOW he’s SOOOOOO predictable to me.

It’s only because I figured out his behaviors and moves…..and he is wayyy to lazy to change it up, think of a new con…….why should he……it works…..he’s just got to keep moving and water himself down……it’s when he stays too long does he expose himself…..(except for me…..shiat it took 28 years!!!!)
He damn well better be predictable now!!!!

Skylar,

Thank you for your virtual hugs and kind & knowing words.

Forgive me, but I’m not ready to give up, although I do sometimes feel down, but it doesn’t last, thanks to the fortitude passed on to me by my mother.

My personal quote is, “If you really want to get something done, then just tell me it’s impossible.” While I’ve grown old and tired over the years, and choose my crusades now with greater caution, this particular one has come to my attention, placing me at risk of losing my home, and possibly worse due to my psychopathic sister. I have a habit of taking up causes that directly impact me, and proceeding to do something about it with the hope it will benefit those who follow. For example, my son and I did this within our school district, which resulted in significant positive change on a different, but also elusive topic, that of more adequately serving extremely intellectually gifted & talented and twice-exceptional students. And when neighbors knew we needed a sidewalk but were low on the city’s totem pole for such infrastructural improvements, I got our neighborhood sidewalk into the last city bond election, which won, so we’re getting one.

In 1989 I bought a house, got married in 1990, then my husband left in me 1991, just a month and a half before our son was born, but not before hanging around not paying bills until he could save up enough to move out, leaving me 3 months behind in all the bills and 10 days short of defaulting on the house. I reached out to social service agencies immediately, in addition to looking for more employment. Well-meaning folks insisted that I would have to give up my house and move into Section 8 housing, and put my son into daycare as soon as he was born. Instead, I found work doing whatever I could from home, desktop designing, baby & pet-sitting, etc. Determined to parent my son as full-time as possible (which turned out to be a good thing, especially since he turned out to be a very unusual person who would never have made it in a regular setting) and keep my home, I started a business providing childcare & children’s programs for events such as conferences and wedding receptions that I ran relatively successfully for 15 years. And we’re still in that house.

So there’s a lethal mix here, pardon the pun, that is that I am highly motivated to pursue this cause, and I am foolish enough to believe that it is possible.

Hi, Erin.

Nice to see you here. How’ve things been?

Cheers,
SS

Ox Drover

Dear SocioSibs,

Darling you are not “insane” but you ARE CRAZEEEEE! That’s a good thing! I think the most successful of us (victors, not victims) are the ones who ARE A BIT CRAZEEEEE! LOL

Something “snapped” in me about this radio interview that I did yesterday—I said my NAME OUT LOUD and connected it to my son Patrick and I WAS NOT ASHAMED. I “thought” I wasn’t before but I think maybe I really was at least subconsciously still ashamed, disappointed that MY SON is a monster, maybe it was EGO on my part, but you know what….I AM NO LONGER ASHAMED, Ii have nothing to BE ashamed of….HE SHOULD FEEL SHAME AND FEELS NO SHAME, and it is not my job to feel it for him.

So what is different today than yesterday? I feel more empowered. I feel stronger. I feel more confident. I feel like a great weight is off my back, one I wasn’t even aware I was carrying.

People did tell me “Oh, you can’t give up on him, he’s your sooooonnnnnnn” Well, YES I CAN, because he is a psychopath. He is a monster. He is a killer. He tried to kill ME! Yes, I can give up on him. I have given him to God and the Texas Department of Criminal Justice to care for him. He belongs to them now, and I have washed my hands except to hopefully keep him where he is as long as I can.

My next mission, and I DO CHOOSE TO ACCEPT IT, (you heard it first here) to help the parents of other psychopathic convicts to realize that THEY CANNOT BENEFIT THEIR LONG GONE BABIES, AND THAT THE ADULT OFFSPRING IN PRISON ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE and they need to CUT THEM OUT OF THEIR LIVES…not live in MALIGNANT HOPE that “junior” is going to grow a conscience after X number of years in the tender mercies of the bowels of the STATE CORRECTIONS (boy is that an oxymoron)!

Ox Drover

Thank you Donna,

You know it is interesting how those kids at Duke got into the mess they were in….”just being boys” and doing things that were “risky” but not horrible…but they hooked up with the WRONG person, not even stopping to think that their behavior was “risky”—or that someone who would “hire out” for the “job” they hired her for might be more inclined to take advantage of the situation—much less to the extent she did. WHAT WOULD BE HER MOTIVE? They couldn’t see any, because they didn’t realize what she was—(I think) clearly a psychopath. Not all “sex workers” or “pole dancers” are psychopaths, or even if they were, would pull something like she did with the Duke team.

The thing is though, I realized (much too late in life) that we have to assess the amount of RISK we are willing to engage in in order to AVOID many of the situations like the Duke kids found themselves in. Of course with the DA (another psychopath or narcissist?) doing what he did, it turned out to be the PERFECT STORM for those students and their families. I am glad to see the DA got pretty much what was coming to him as well, and hopefully now that this woman has ACTUALLY KILLED SOMEONE she will be at least kept off the streets for a while. She has enough of a RECORD OF CRIMINAL VIOLENCE NOW, that maybe FINALLY justice will keep her confined. If it had confined her previously, the man she killed might be alive still.

I am also glad to see that her 4 children will no longer be subjected to her “parenting.” Don’t you know those children have had a rough life so far with that Woman for a “mother”?

Over the weekend my son and I met some Boy Scout leaders and their Venture Crew group, and interestingly enough, the young men mentioned that they had single custody of their children and were divorced…I asked a couple of what might have sounded like “normal questions” but because these young men had been involved with psychopathic women (the mothers of their kids) before I knew it they were pouring out their stories of abuse and insanity during their marriage, abuse of their children….stories that would have sounded INSANE to anyone except another survivor. Both of these young fathers told me, “you know, you just can’t talk about this to most folks because they’d think you are crazy or making it all up…no one would believe me.” It was I think very good that these young men were able to “pour out” their stories to an ACTIVE, BELIEVING and VALIDATING listener….I didn’t say very much to them, though I did take a hand full of books back for one of the young fathers the second day of the event (Betrayal Bond) and recommended some others for him and his 14 yr old son—but I truly believe that just being able to TELL HIS STORY and to have someone validate him probably meant more to him than even I can realize.

Hens was talking the other night how in the “early days” of his life when he was still “in the closet” sexually, the “code word” was “I’m a friend of Dorthy” as in the Wizard of Oz, Dorthy….and I wish we had a code word that would be able to identify US to those souls who are still HIDING IN THE CLOSET OF PAIN from the psychopathic attacks.

I’m not even sure what part of the conversation led this young man to just OPEN UP AND START GUSHING out his story of abuse and chaos, the pain he felt, the self blame, the insanity….but whatever it was it opened a flood gate of emotions for this young man as we sat on large rocks, off to the side of the historic camp and quietly conversed, watching his son along with the other young people dressed in period clothing they had made themselves, throwing tomahawks at wooden blocks.

What was it about him that made me know he needed to talk? What was it I said that made him know I was safe to talk to? and that I could validate his feelings? I’m not sure. I WISH I DID KNOW.

Odd thing too, I overheard part of a conversation with another group going on around me, the family takes dysfunction to a new art form but the wife of this family is one of our active members though her husband is a drunk that beats her on a regular basis and she has left and gone back time and time again. No one in the group (after being supportive of her “victim” status and trying to help her) seriously thinks she wants to leave him now so it is just one of those things no one talks about any more and if she bitches that her husband has done x, y or z, we say “I’m sure that must have upset you.” and let it go at that.

One member of their family has a daughter who is in jail now, awaiting sentencing for severely beating her mother (another member of the family) and with the help of her meth-head BF throwing the mother’s (what they thought was) dead body over an embankment. The mother was found the next day and lived though severely beaten…and has taken in the 4 yr old granddaughter to raise.

NOW the family is rallying around this girl in jail, though she has a LIFE LONG PATTERN OF BAD BEHAVIOR, violence and drugs, to “get her the help she needs” and keep her out of prison.

The injured woman wasn’t at the event, but lives near by, and I gave her sister (another one, not the member of our group) my phone number and told her, “Have Suzie call me if she needs to talk, I have a son in prison as well and I might could lend her some support.”

I was informed by our group member that “Suzie had forgiven her daughter because she just knew she was not a psychopath (her word not mine, I hadn’t used the word) and that all she needed was some drug treatment and she would be fine and all the life time of violence and bad decisions would be over.”

I walked away knowing the phone would not ring, and there was no way that family was going to let the mother walk away from that violent daughter—they would band around her to enable her, they would remain victims of Their family monster for the next generation and who knows how many more.

With 85% of abused women going back to their abusers, or picking another one to abuse them in a continual cycle of abuse, the NEED for education is there….and there are those that for whatever reason are HUNGRY FOR VALIDATION AND INFORMATION but there are those like the woman member of our group, and her entire family, who RESIST INFORMATION AND HEALING, they actively FIGHT to keep the status quo of pain and dysfunction going. It is way too scary for them to make changes.

I have been in both camps….I have been too afraid to change, or thought I could keep it “balanced”, and now I am at the place that the CHANGES I know I have to make and keep making are in ME, not them. I CAN’T CHANGE THEM, only myself.

As for those that are receptive to changing themselves, I can support them, validate them, comfort them, but they must make their own changes, and for those that resist change, I can only offer and then walk away until such time as they seek me out (if they ever do) but to NOT feel like a failure because I didn’t get through to that one family.

In the “theory of change” there is a step that I love the NAME OF. It is called the “pre-contemplative stage”—in other words, it is the stage before you even begin to think about changing! LOL I spent a A LOT OF TIME IN THE “PRE CONTEMPLATIVE” STAGE of change. LOL

peterd

Notice that in the result of this drama, district attorney was disbarred, probably because of withholding evidence of innocence. I’d suspect the DA of a personality disorder as well. The system was cleaned.

Ox Drover

Dear Peterd,

I agree with you that the DA had a screw loose or two and acted very “control freak” about it all, like he was gonna be some big shot over that case and it BACK FIRED in his face.

It makes me sick just how many people in political and legal positions of power use that power to serve their own ends or those of their crooked friends.

Now Ex-Governor Arnie of California just shortened the murder sentence of one of his buddies’ kids by 9 years on his last day in office and is totally unrepentant about it “well, DUH,” he says “you help out a friend.” WTF??? Wonder what the parents of the murdered victim think about Governor Arnie’s helping out a buddy? At the price of justice for their DEAD CHILD?

People who can with impunity take the law and justice into their own hands to pervert it for them and their own buddies should be drummed out of society, but they aren’t…there are no social or “moral” consequences for them either.

Peterd, we can rejoice in the silver lining. 🙂

echosandsilence

wow, its deja vu all over again. i guess you can say im having another “a ha” moment. the girl that SocioSibs describes could be my exfiance, if i didnt know any better … wow

Oxy,

I wouldn’t say so much that there are no consequences for them, but that on those rare occasions when they occur the psychopaths take it in stride. They’re used to it, and brush it off, using their conscienceless defenses, which, if they finally don’t succeed, move on to inflict havoc elsewhere.

Along the way in my endeavor to produce a show about psychopathy, I’ve become acquainted with a fellow who is very much interested in this very issue, the wanton disregard of a few key players in the judicial system. He in turn is fascinated by the issue of psychopathy now that he has heard about it. He, too, is a producer, and will no doubt aid in spreading awareness on some of his shows.

Oxy,

Congratulations on losing the shame!

I, too, find it difficult to admit association with a psychopath ”“ right in my own family. If nothing else, it would seem to be a reflection of bad genes. In the case of parenting such a child, I can only imagine, as I did and do regarding my mother. While her intermittent denial was indescribably frustrating, I could sympathize realizing how heartbreaking it would have been had she confronted the truth. Unlike being a sibling of one, parenting one is a whole other can of worms, as we attribute a great deal of responsibility to how a child turns out to the parent(s), oftentimes blaming the mother more than anyone. This must change.

Sure there’s bad parenting out there, especially if the parent, too, is personality disordered. And there are those of us who aren’t bad parents, but merely imperfect. Still, regardless of the parenting, a psychopath is still a psychopath, and must be held accountable, while a good but imperfect parent has earned no shame.

Echosandsilence,

What she’s done to the boys & men in her life is so bad, that her ex-husband actually sold what was left of the property she’d destroyed, bought an old beat-up boat, and went to sea for 3 years attempting to recover.

And she’s still out there, doing it over and over again, usually to the kindest, most caring people, such as her husband was and is. I feel great pain for her other targets, and targets of other psychopaths, and hope to put a dent in stopping them.

Oh, and Oxy, I know I’m “CRAZEEEEE”, but it gets things done. 😉

Besides, I’m in a good crowd” Look at some of the others out there also striving to educate the public. I feel honored to join in this mission and hope to do at least a fraction of the good work they’ve done.

lesson learned

Ox,

I think I need to listen to that again. I heard the F word said and kinda chuckled as that’s the point I started listening. It was really great for me to hear you actually SPEAK about what happened. It’s a powerful testimony.

This has been a really interesting discussion. Socio, you sure do have it together. What a great Mom and support you had. thank GOD for that!

I think as far as the pathologicals in my life, the more I talk about it, the less shame I have. It’s more turned into determination to DO something about it. That’s what’s so frustrating, as well as running into brick walls in understanding that people just DO NOT get this, not even therapists get it.

I guess I feel more like an idiot, rather than shameful, when I have to “educate” anyone I talk to about it. Like I’m speaking Japanese, but I’m so past the point of caring.

It does feel good to tell your story. And even better when it’s believed. I hope psychopathic education really catches on the fire in the next several years.

All of you make important contributions to public awareness.

LL

LL,

Not sure how “together” I have it, but always working on it. 🙂

As for Mom’s support, it was on & off & on, in large part due to my sister always in one ear or the other badmouthing one to the other, then sitting back and enjoying the show, and inviting others into the audience. Although for a lot of my adulthood, Mom did tend to feel a greater trust in me as she couldn’t deny that I was living a decent, relatively stable life while my sister’s was constantly in turmoil. That is, up until a couple of weeks before she died, while I was caring for her, and my sister called daily putting awful thoughts into the mind of my very vulnerable mother, urging her not to trust me. Meanwhile, my mother, who had always been incredibly independent, was now dependent upon me.

What causes me more grief, maybe even than losing my mother, was what her life was like in those last few weeks. Torn between her only 2 children, forced to rely on the one she’s trusted more for years but now doubts, as in her narcotic-induced and severely weakened state, the other is unrelentingly pounding fear into her about her primary caregiver.

Btw, closer to that time as I gradually became more aware of what was actually going on, and trying desperately to get support to stop it, few of the few people in whom I confided found what I had to say believable. Nowadays, however, while it still isn’t the topic of every conversation and it’s not something I tell about to everyone, those whom I do share it with are more and more believing me. At least they’re listening, without automatically assuming I’m nuts, probably because over time I’ve grown more removed from the most intense of the pain and can speak with relative clarity & calm, as well as with a great deal more knowledge now. Plus I’ve gathered a tubload of evidence to back up my words.

In opening others’ eyes, panic seldom works, but passion often does.

lesson learned

Socio.

I’m so sorry that your sister is such an evil witchy spath. I understand the pain you were feeling about your sister trying to rip your mother apart as she lay dying. My spathy witch of a sister did the same thing to my mother, only it worked.

That was in 1994 and although removed from it now in some ways, when I really think about it, I feel VERY angry.

I have nothing to do with the witch and my spath brother now.

Your survival is a testimony for me though, SS. Even in just maintaining NC from the witch. I think it’s remarkable that you stood by your mother, even though your witch of a sister was playing out her evil in the most painful of ways for you. Through it all, you just sound so sensible and sane.

Thank you for sharing your story.

LL

echosandsilence

SocioSibs,

i had a sales lady in my office a few weeks ago, and something triggered my thoughts and i mentioned that i had been a victim of a serious female sociopath who i was engaged to … and as soon as i said that, i realized i might have messed up …. she gave me that “deer in the headlights” look.

i was reminded of how most people have no concept of what socioopathy is and just figure if you are a victim of anything, that it may be a sign of weakness. i quickly shrugged it off and changed the subject.

luckily, i have a friend of mine who is familiar with sociopathy and she has been excellent about helping me spot some of the “red flags” i missed … which should have been obvious to me.

ErinBrock

“In opening others’ eyes, panic seldom works, but passion often does.”

Couldn’t have said it better!!!! True, true!

Echosandsilence,

“which should have been obvious to me”

Watch out for those “shoulds”, as they are often ways of beating ourselves up.

Regardless of our imperfections, it is not we who are responsible for the behaviors of psychopaths, it is they.

What we are responsible for is our recovery, and learning and changing so as to better avoid those pitfalls. That is what we are doing here, so we all have a lot to be proud of.

Thank you, Erin.

Of course, passion backed by documentation to substantiate it, and support in numbers of those who do “get it” helps, too.

Hope to heal

SS ~ I agree with EB on your statement. If we try to convince people of the truth about spaths when we are in panic… we are the ones that look NUTS, not the spath.

It’s hard to believe, until you experience it for yourself. Once you do, and learn what that train was that just hit you. It’s amazing how many more of them you recognize in your life. They are literally EVERYWHERE.

lesson learned

Oxy,

“With 85% of abused women going back to their abusers, or picking another one to abuse them in a continual cycle of abuse, the NEED for education is there”.and there are those that for whatever reason are HUNGRY FOR VALIDATION AND INFORMATION but there are those like the woman member of our group, and her entire family, who RESIST INFORMATION AND HEALING, they actively FIGHT to keep the status quo of pain and dysfunction going. It is way too scary for them to make changes.

I have been in both camps”.I have been too afraid to change, or thought I could keep it “balanced”, and now I am at the place that the CHANGES I know I have to make and keep making are in ME, not them. I CAN’T CHANGE THEM, only myself.

As for those that are receptive to changing themselves, I can support them, validate them, comfort them, but they must make their own changes, and for those that resist change, I can only offer and then walk away until such time as they seek me out (if they ever do) but to NOT feel like a failure because I didn’t get through to that one family.

In the “theory of change” there is a step that I love the NAME OF. It is called the “pre-contemplative stage—”in other words, it is the stage before you even begin to think about changing! LOL I spent a A LOT OF TIME IN THE “PRE CONTEMPLATIVE” STAGE of change. LOL ”

That is a VERY scary percentage!!!

I think the stories you’ve outlined as well as your perceptions here that I’ve copied and pasted are sadly true…..

I really do believe that change is extremely difficult. I’m finding that out for myself too. I’m willing, it’s just damned hard and IT IS scary. IT IS SCARY.

I think the familiar is much more “comforting” (even if dysfunctional) for more rather than less.

And with that should any of us wonder why a spath will always have willing victims?

There are more of them than not.

LL

lesson learned

SS, that is so true,

But many of us don’t have documentation. Only our stories to share. I left all my spaths behind, including family, without a paper trail. They only wanted to win. So i let them believe they did.

LL

Thank you, LL, and I’m sorry that you ”“ or anyone ”“ would also know firsthand the nearly debilitating pain of helplessly standing by while a psychopath torments a dearly loved one.

LL,

Ah, that is sometimes the case, and the best choice in separating as quickly & cleanly from a psychopath.

The documentation to which I referred had more to do with empirical research and published works, such as that by Donna Andersen & Robert Hare, for instance.

There are 2 issues of education for me. One is on a personal level to educate those who are supporting my sister and attacking me on her behalf, because my home and possibly my life remains at stake. The other is on a global level to raise awareness, which may or may not indirectly help me, but could and needs to happen anyway.

It is for the latter that general education is helpful, citing works of others who’ve gone before us as substantiating documentation. When I first broach the subject, it is generally from a point of view of teaching and spreading the word, not about my sister, but about the societal affliction.

Yes, Hope, they are everywhere. Hence the need to awaken the world as to their existence and the broad range of devastation they impart.

Back to the subject of the story, I wonder what, if anything, might be gained by contacting the current prosecutor and enlightening her/him as to the possibility of psychopathic involvement.

Not long ago there was a case in my city & state about a couple that killed a woman so that the wife, who had a multitude of scrapes with the law and was still “wanted”, could steal her identity. Just based on the limited information in the news, it looked to me as though the wife was a psychopath, while the husband may have been a duped accomplice, if not a psychopath himself.

I tracked down the prosecutor who had her own online blog, and made one attempt to call her office. I didn’t hold high hopes of getting through, much less persuading her of the value of getting an order of the court to have both of them evaluated for psychopathy. That lawyer was embroiled in a high-profile case keeping her very busy, and I am just a layperson.

Since then I’ve taken advantage of a few opportunities to get to know attorneys for the purpose of bringing up and educating them on this topic. But I am not adequately confidant as to what would convince them, how it would benefit them. I’ve even located a psychopathy expert who has indicated willingness, even desire to speak to an assembly of them, the same one that will be offering commentary for my show. But I’m still struggling with words to get the subject in the door. Any suggestions?

skylar

Hope for Joy,
yes, me too. When I learned what they were, I realized that they were EVERYWHERE and that I had been surrounded by them my entire life.

I understood why my best friend from high school had layed down in a snow storm and frozen to death. I understood that my best friend from grade school wasn’t lying when she said she had been fondled by her dad, because he had shown all the other signs of malignant narcissism only I had not known what they were.

I understood why my other best friend from high school had become a meth addict and prostitute.

I understood why my aunt always had an expression of pain on her face since I had known her and then she died of cancer at age 55. Her husband, my uncle, was a spath.

I finally saw my family members in the clear light of day. It was an amazing revelation to have so much clarity all at once. I imagine that’s how someone who has been blind all their lives but then gets the operation to fix their eyesight feels on the day the bandages are removed.

Ana

Skylar,
When I was in therapy years ago, I remember she said to me, one of the hardest things for an anyone to accept is the TRUTH about their parents. She was right, too.

You are so smart about spaths and just about everything in general here on the board. It’s obvious you’ve done a lot of research/investigating of spaths. Thank you for sharing it with me/us who have not done all the work you have…YET! Still working on it.

skylar

Awww Ana,
you’re so sweet. don’t swell my head TOOOOO much.
You can say I’m smart about socios but don’t say just about everything in general because if I were to believe you, I would turn into a spath. That’s what THEY think! 🙂

I’m trying soooo hard to be able to SEEE my parents. My dad is easier to SEE than my mom. It’s like when I look or think about her, everything gets blurry. My crystal clear vision, clouds right back up. Is it because I can’t be objective? What if she’s not a spath and it’s my own narcisstic injury clouding my vision? What if she’s just a flawed human being? Argh.

It’s so hard because I feel like I’m rolling the dice rather than making a clear decision. To go NC or not to go NC. that’s the question. If I go NC and they are not spaths I would lose soooo much. But same with the other decision.

Nope Ana, I guess I’m not so smart because when it comes to parents… that’s where I’m reduced to a crushed bug.

Ox Drover

Dear SocioSibs,

I have done some educational work with some attorneys who are volunteering in the Court Appointed Special Advocates for Children (CASA) who are in foster care. Some of those kids are budding Ps, and some of the parents are full fledged Ps. Unfortunately, the CASAs who are the advocates for these kids NEED TO KNOW what a psychopath is and how they operate.

I have given them the book Snakes in Suits, I have talked about how to spot the LOVE BOMB and the Pity Play, and the other red flags. Some of my information “stuck” and some didn’t. The “manager” of our local DV house is so arrogant I think that she is pretty high level BPD herself so I am speaking to deaf ears.

Just like the woman at my history event who is up to her eye brows in the family dysfunction though her niece is in jail for trying to kill her mother but “Isn’t a psychopath, it is just a drug addiction and all the Ps she chooses for men friends/BFs” and she may indeed be a trauma bonded dupe, but that girl has some BIG PROBLEMS and drug rehab isn’t gonna fix’em I’m afriad, NOT IN THAT FAMILY of abusers and enablers. Her aunt is a prime example of a co-abuser with her abusive husband, it is just “musical chairs” in who is abusing who today, tomorrow the roles will change. Down here in the South we call them “white trash” (and it has nothing to do with income, size of the house or anything else, it is how they behave). Many times they do live in poverty because of the life style they choose, but the poverty is not the CAUSE of their problems but the RESULT of their life style. Yet many sociologists blame the poverty for the life style and throw money at it when it isn’t going to help.

The lawyer I hired to represent my P son Patrick in his parole hearing in January already KNEW WHAT A PSYCHOPATH WAS and he refused to work for them…In fact, my egg donor had hired him to represent Patrick FOR his first parole hearing 4 years before….but after investigating my son’s charges etc. he DECLINED TO REPRESENT HIM (he did not say why just declined to take any more of our money) Which BTW made me think he must be an HONEST MAN—A LAWYER TURNING DOWN MONEY? LOL ROTFLMAO

So anyway, I called him and told him m y story (he didn’t believe me either until he saw the documentation) then and ONLY then did his mouth fall open and he said “THAT MAN IS VERY DANGEROUS.” I said, “Yep, now you believe me, huh?” I don’t expect most people to believe me because the story IS TOO WAY OUT, TOO FAR OUT, TOO UNBELIEVABLE FOR FICTION EVEN. Only my closest friends and here on LF do I really talk about it much…or if I come up against another victim that I can soon find out WILL believe because their story is about as CRAZEE.

After my P sperm donor raped me, and all the things I knew about him, I never talked to others that did not KNOW HIM PERSONALLY because NO ONE would believe me that didn’t know him. NO ONE except my egg donor that did know him did NOT believe me. The other people he had damaged, threatened, etc. they believed me, including his blood relatives who would not associate with him, but are very close to me even today.

It was very validating that my P sperm donor’s family was and is supportive of me. They were my family, he was not.

We must seek validation where we can find it, but at the same time, we also must learn to VALIDATE OURSELVES first and foremost. Even if NO ONE ELSE BELIEVES US, it is, it MUST BE enough that we know the TRUTH.

Hope to heal

Sky ~ Parents have got to be the MOST difficult to “see”. I believe that’s because we count on them to protect us when we are children. That’s the way it’s SUPPOSED to be, and when it’s not… it’s very hard to reconcile.

I don’t see you as a “crushed bug” tho. (((sky))). I see you as someone who is working very hard on the road to healing.

skylar

Hope,
I saw them as “saintly” for so long. Until I found out what the exP was and they told me that they had overheard him tell someone that he was only with me for my money – 25 years earlier!! But they didn’t think it was something they needed to tell me! WTF? Then the brain scramble began.

As a kid, I resisted the brainwashing and even ran away from home for 2 weeks, to get them to act normal. So then they kind of did “straighten up”for the next 30 years. And that’s when I became convinced that they were saintly and I had been wrong all along. I forgot the abuse, or at least I excused it. Being on good terms with your parents is a dream. It feels so good to give and recieve love from them.

Such a rude awakening to find out they don’t know what love is.

Ana

Skylar,
It’s like warning someone about the spath…would you have believed them if they told you that? I know I wouldna!

It sounds like you love both of your parents so much! I hope you give it time to figure out what you want/need from them. Don’t let go to soon, before you are absoultley sure that you want nc.

Parents are not perfect by any ssstttrrreeeettttchhhh of the imagination. My mother was dying of cancer when I was finishing up my therapy. I did take care of her, bathed her, cryed with her, and just accepted her as she was/is. Maybe I am too much of an empath, but I’m so glad I did not reject her because of her human failings. I’m not saying that is what you should do…just a reflection on MY part.

I’m sure you will get to the place you need to be and when you do it will FEEL right.

Hope to heal

Sky ~ Although I can understand your being upset about your parents not telling you about your exP 25 years earlier. My
question is, would you have believed them if they did? Believe me, I am NOT defending them. It’s just that, from my own
experience, when my mother (dad never said anything) told me something negative about someone I cared about, I didn’t
believe her. I just looked at as, her just being her normal negative self where I was concerned. I had never been able to do anything quite good enough for her. Including choose a life partner. That’s probably why I was almost 41 when I met my husband. We’ve been together almost 11 years now, and are very happy. His ex is the spath in my life. YUCK!!

Ana

Skylar,
for your late night viewing pleasure. Life is one long rock climb. Courtesy of Chris Sharma! Notice he does make it to the top! : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRFde1PhgbY

hushabybabydoll

Ox Drover–

I am so grateful to you for all that you share here. Processing what has happened is such a powerful tool to live in reality! Though it hurts a lot. . . I can see how your willingness and wisdom in sharing what’s happened has strengthened you and has encouraged others.

I also like how you said we have to validate ourselves first and foremost.

Validating myself was the only way to maintain sanity in my family of origin. Nobody else was doing it. But it was hard when I got older and found some Christians that I trusted and asked for help to get out of the very toxic environment that I was in.

They didn’t believe me. That’s when I started to get tougher and more adamant. . .NO THESE THINGS HAPPENED. But I was so young 18-22 at the time of having these run ins. . .and few people believed me, I started to question myself.

But there were moments of grace. . . . this website became a tool of incredible validation as I was deciding the NC rule with my BM. It was so freeing to know that it was something other people who were protecting themselves were doing, and it especially helped me to hear your biblical examples Ox Drover. I was so brainwashed to “turning my other cheek” so many times that I seriously could not see all the stories about David running from Saul, Mary and Joseph living in Egypt until Herod died, etc. Somehow I felt faulty as a Christian, I wasn’t strong enough or holy enough to continue this relationship with BM. BUT your voice, among others here. . . . were just the release I needed.

Now I struggle with fear. After being stalked for 22 years by my BM and finally having broken that pattern, I am realizing how deep the PTSD is and wanting to find a way to be at peace. Recently somebody prayed for me to have freedom from fear and I believe it was a good first step. . .yet I feel like that fear is now a pattern, and I don’t know how to live a different pattern. It really breaks my heart that I had to live that way for so long, and I am finding that mourning the loss is really painful. I just wish that I could erase the emotional impact with a giant eraser. And that my cells would be released from the toxic adrenalized state.

What has worked for you? Do you find that you can rest? What does that look like emotionally? Did you struggle with trusting God as being good at times? Sometimes I get angry with Him, and I know that it’s not logical, but then I get stuck and can’t or won’t pray, because I am so overwhelmed with pain and anger.

again thank you for all your wisdom– a true hope for me,

*Hugs*

skylar

Ana and Hope,
I understand what you mean and that is what everyone says, “you wouldn’t have believed them.” It’s true that they told me, “he is only after you for money.” many times and I just thought they were off their rockers!

BUT, that’s very different from, “YOUR FATHER OVERHEARD HIM SAY HE WAS ONLY WITH YOU FOR YOUR MONEY!”

My parents opinions on his intention doesn’t bear the same weight as the words out of his mouth. I have never considered my parents liars, so I would have known that he did actually say it. Would I have listened? no, I still would have given him a chance, but with that little bit of insight, I would have seen EVERYTHING ELSE I SAW, in a different light. And I would have left him in 5 years not 25 years.

All those WTF? moments would have made perfect sense. The proof is that, at the moment that they told me what they heard, I KNEW he was evil. That was when I made my decision to leave him. Because then enough pieces of the puzzle fell into place. I still didn’t know what a spath was but I knew he was evil.

To further elaborate on my parents and the confusion with them, I’ll explain that they are and always have been very controlling, lacking in empathy for me and they create drama where it’s unnecessary. All of these traits made me feel right at home with my spath. The moment I arrived back in my parents’ nest, I was struck by the similarity. I remembered all the injustice and the way they favored my brother and sister.

Again, when I was trying to sleep and my brother set me up and attacked me then called the police to arrest me on a DV, they cried as I was handcuffed, but they didn’t even get me a lawyer. And they didn’t kick him out for that. There were no consequences. And we all know that spaths do what they do because they can, because we let them, because there are no consequences. He still lives there comfortably, with no responsibility, no job, just food stamps. He’s 46. They know what he is because I’ve explained spaths to them.

In my attempt to discern what the heck they are, I have also applied Jesus’ teaching, “you will know a tree by the fruit it bears” I look at the evil fruit (my brother and sister) and at the waste my life has been and my good sister is so spineless (she’s literally hunched over from being oppressed all her life). Then I just see my parents as bad trees. I so wish it wasn’t true.

I know that loving them, blinds me to who they are so I’ve tried to objectively apply the RED FLAGS to what they’ve done. It doesn’t look good from that perspective.

Thank you both for your words of encouragement and thank you Ana for the video. It was tiring just watching!

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