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By | August 31, 2009 84 Comments

Two kidnappers: Which one is the psychopath?

America was horrified last week to learn that Phillip Garrido, a convicted sex offender who lived in Antioch, California, had kidnapped Jaycee Lee Dugard from her home in 1991, kept her as a sex slave in a tent compound behind his home, and fathered two children with her.

Garrido aroused suspicions when he showed up at the University of California, Berkley, with two girls, ages 11 and 15. According to the New York Times, he wanted to give lectures and live demonstrations that could help people who hear voices stop before committing a violent act. The Times wrote:

On Monday, Mr. Garrido had again approached university officials about a staging a religious event and handing out literature about schizophrenia. But campus police officials found his behavior suspicious, particularly in relationship to two young girls Mr. Garrido had with him. The girls are now known to be his and Ms. Dugard’s daughters, ages 11 and 15.

“They didn’t look right,” said Lisa Campbell, the manager of the campus police special-events unit, noting that the children were pale and withdrawn. Ms. Campbell contacted Allyson Jacobs, a campus patrol officer, who ran a background check on Mr. Garrido and learned of his criminal past, including convictions of rape and kidnapping in Nevada in the mid-1970s.

That lead to the discovery of Garrido’s secret life, and the ramshackle collection of tents and sheds behind his home where Jaycee Dugard had been imprisoned for 19 years. He and his wife were arrested on August 26, 2009.

Creepy Phil

Garrido, who was known around his neighborhood as “Creepy Phil,” had gotten kookier recently. He claimed that God spoke to him through a box and sometimes started singing religious songs.

On July 21, 2009, Garrido posted the following in his blog, Voices Revealed:

THE U.S. FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE SOURCE OF MIND CONTROL

U.C.L.A. conducted a three year study from (2003 to 2006) their conclusion at the end of the 3 year study was that the number of cases where people heard voices increased by fifty percent.

The following reports will provide needed insight. This type of activity is increasing worldwide.

Voices have come about due to the powerful design of the human mind and is intended for a purpose beyond our present understanding. Be assured it is to provide and protect our future development.

WARNING
These areas are off limits and a danger to anyone believing they can experience this type of freedom. It belongs to God for the direct application of His Word.

After his arrest, Garrido actually gave a telephone interview to KCRA 3, a television station based in Sacramento, California. The interview was described as rambling and incoherent, and Garrido appeared to be justifying the kidnapping:

“What’s kept me busy the last several years is I’ve completely turned my life around,” Garrido told KCRA 3. “And you’re going to find the most powerful story coming from the witness, the victim — you wait. If you take this a step at a time, you’re going to fall over backwards and in the end, you’re going to find the most powerful heart-warming story.”

Psycho Garrido

All over the Internet now, people are referring to Garrido as “psycho.” Andy Ostroy on the Huffington Post wrote, “Psycho kidnapper-rapist Phillip Garrido should be put to death.” Andrew Belonsky on Gawker wrote, “In true psycho fashion, Phillip Garrido had blog, heard God.”

“Psycho” is an ambiguous term, perhaps a shortened version of “psychopath” or “psychopathology.” A psychopath is the type of person we discuss here on Lovefraud, someone with no heart, no conscience and no remorse. Psychopathology can refer to just about any mental illness. Unfortunately, the distinction between these two terms is much too subtle for the general population. Most people just lump everyone together as crazy psychos.

Kidnapping hoax

The next day and across the country, in Doylestown, Pennsylvania, Bonnie Sweeten pleaded guilty to identity theft and making false reports.

Perhaps you remember Sweeten. She’s the woman who called 911 on May 26, 2009, claiming that she and her daughter had been abducted by two black men and were locked in the trunk of a car. Her call led to an Amber alert and a nationwide search. A few days later, Sweeten and her 9-year-old daughter were located in a luxury hotel at Walt Disney World, in Orlando, Florida.

Why did Sweeten flee to Florida? Well, it turned out that she was in a lot of trouble back home.

According to a long article in the Philadelphia Inquirer, she had been accused by relatives of swindling nearly $300,000 from Victor Biondino, 92, who suffered from dementia. Sweeten was at one time related to the old man by marriage—she was married to his grandson for 10 years.

When confronted by relatives, Sweeten admitted taking Biondino’s money. But she told a story that she and her employer, Debbie Carlitz, an attorney, had been arrested and needed the money for bail. This was not true. Sweeten promised to return the money, then kept delaying, always with an excuse, until she could delay no longer.

When the refund check she wrote bounced, Sweeten was already on her way to Disney World with $12,000 in cash.

Sentenced to prison

Sweeten was arrested and pleaded guilty in the kidnapping hoax. In court for her sentencing last Thursday, Sweeten cried and spoke words of remorse. Bucks County Court Judge Jeffrey Finley didn’t fall for the act.

“I’m not buying it,” he said, according to the Philadelphia Inquirer.

He called Sweeten “a calculating, manipulative, cold-blooded woman.” Then he sentenced her to nine to 24 months in prison, plus 50 hours of community service and four years of probation. The punishment was actually more stringent than called for by sentencing guidelines.

Sweeten’s deception deserved the stiff penalty, Finley said, because her hoax created widespread fear, stirred racial tensions, taxed law enforcement resources, and inflicted severe humiliation on her own loved ones, especially her three children.

Delusional

Reading the coverage of both of these stories, I am certain that Bonnie Sweeten would be diagnosed as a psychopath, but I’m not sure about Phillip Garrido.

Garrido obviously has mental issues—his father said he was a friendly, sweet kid until high school, when he started getting into trouble and using LSD. Some psychopaths are fine as children and then develop the disorder as adolescents.

The kidnapping and rape, of course, require the emotional callousness of a psychopath. Garrido was also suspected of bilking an elderly neighbor out of $18,000, in a complaint filed by an elder care home. Garrido said the man gave him the money to start a church, and prosecutors, citing insufficient evidence, declined to file charges.

So the guy certainly exhibits psychopathic behaviors. But he is also delusional, claiming that God talks to him through a box. His behavior, according to people who know him, has been getting more and more erratic.

Psychopaths are not delusional. They know exactly what they are doing; they just don’t care about hurting people. So if Garrido is a psychopath, he has other mental disorders as well.

Feeding the misconception

Unfortunately, though, the Garrido case reinforces society’s misconceptions about psychopaths. This makes it easier for psychopaths like Bonnie Sweeten, a paralegal who gave the impression of a picture-perfect suburban mom, to fly under the radar. Bonnie was handling her family’s finances; her husband, Larry Sweeten, had no idea what was going on.

When her husband first heard that Bonnie Sweeten was arrested in Disney World, he didn’t know what to think.

“I was just trying to find out what was going on, like everybody else,” Larry Sweeten said in an interview. “I just hope that everybody out there doesn’t believe everything that they’re hearing. Everybody who knows her knows she’s a great person, and these rumors can’t be true.”

In July, Larry Sweeten filed for divorce and custody of the couple’s 11-month-old daughter.


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Elizabeth Conley

Who’s the psychopath? Well it’s clear that Bonnie Sweeton is a psychopath.

The case of Garrido is more complex:

“That lead to the discovery of Garrido’s secret life, and the ramshackle collection of tents and sheds behind his home where Jaycee Dugard had been imprisoned for 19 years. He and his wife were arrested on August 26, 2009.”

Garrido is insane. What exactly is going on with his wife? I have to wonder if she is the one with the character disorder.

Ox Drover

Is he faking psychosis because he thought he would get caught?

Is he a psychopath who has developed psychosis recently?

Has he always been psychotic?

These are all questions that will have to be answered in order to get a true picture of what is going on and has gone on.

What about the ultimate victim jaycee? Is she a victim of Stockholm syndrome? What about her kids? What is their status? What about his wife? What is her status? More questions than a college final exam, and they are just as hard to answer, given that we weren’t able to attend the course.

The entire thing is mindboggling even to those of us familiar with psychopaths. Whatever the answers I don’t think it is JUST garden variety psychopathy, but whatever it is, it is HORRIBLE for the victims.

The swindler, Bonnie Sweeten, is obviously high in psychopathic traits. No suprise there. Garden variety psychopath. I feel great empathy for her husband and child.

super chic

Yes, I’ve been wondering about Garrido’s wife also, what’s her story? Is she a psychopath? Or brainwashed/abused. She was what, 36, when they kidnapped Jaycee.

Poor Jaycee. I’ve been reading some articles about the case and there are frequent comments regarding her “chances at freedom.” I shake my head in disgust. He kidnapped her at 11- she never stepped foot into a school or dr’s office again. Does anyone really believe part of his schtick was telling her “and when you’re 18, you’ll be an adult and can make your own choices”? Furthermore, child predators frequently threaten the victim. If she tried to leave, at any point, had he threatened to hunt her down and kill her? Her family? Her children? Like she thought she could leave? Furthermore, we also don’t know if she thought she had anywhere to go…he may have also told her her parents didn’t want her back.

Not sure what the exact diagnosis would be for Garrido- there’s LOTS banging around in his head…none of it normal.

skylar

My brother is a 45-year old P who has told us he is mentally ill since he was 16. He has delusions when he looks at people’s faces or his own in the mirror. Not sure which, since his story keeps changing. Suffice it to say, by being mentally ill, he cannot be expected to hold down a job or live like a normal person. Furthermore, we are not allowed to discuss the subject with him or he goes into a rage.

ErinBrock

Thanks Donna for this writing.
I have wondered about the wife. I am interested in finding out more on her…..I see they met in prison…..how etc…
her background etc…
I can’t make a judgement on her from the little we know.

Garrido:
At first glanse I see sociopath……but not as an independant diagnosis.
Obviously, he took his mind control crap too far.
This is my question…..
If we start out as sociopath and ‘step up’ our control and power over others and take it further….eventually there has to be an evolution of our thinking to get to THIS level of disturbed.
If we lie long enough, and tell the same false stories….eventually they become our realilty…..we live them, believe them and act on them….
SO…..on some level…..not starting out on a ‘level’ playing field with society…..can’t we do our own damage to our own minds and progress down a path we originally had choices to avoid……BUT do to our choices to lie, deceive, manipulate and test the minds of others via control……WE CHOOSE to go this route?
I’m not sure I by the insane route for Garrido.
If he didn’t know it was wrong to kidnap, he wouldn’t have HIDDEN her. He woudn’t have gone to such extremes to keep a soundproof room, set up a backyard inside backyard, not allowed med care or schooling …..if he thought it wasn’t wrong, if he wasn’t affraid of getting caught……
He knew right from wrong…….by his own actions of saying he has turned his life around……
I hope they hang him by the balls and pluck each pubic hair out one by one prior to castrating him and shoving his balls up his nose to suffocate slowely as he is waiting for HIS god to save him!

Ox Drover

Wow, Erin, a little violent there aren’t we!? LOL I was kind of thinkinig more along the line of hanging, drawing and quartering…a good executioner in those days could keep a man alive for hours.

It does make us want to become violent doesn’t it to hear about these things. That guy who kept his daughter in the bunker where she and her kids couldn’t even stand up straight for 19 years made me literally SICK for several days with anger and rage.

I have had to try to keep some emotional “clinical distance” from this story and absorb it slowly. I literally find that taking all this kind of news story in and internalizing it keeps me filled with RAGE and a desire for VENGENCE.

But I hope stories like this do stir us to action on educating others, being vigilent, and never, ever, get complaicent about abusers.

ErinBrock

oxy;
YES! Unfortunately, I lived in the area of SLT when Jaycee was kidnapped. I remember it well and had thought of her through the years……It put the fear of god in us all……and when I sent my kids to the bus stop, we all thought twice….the kids didn’t want us there, they wanted independance…but we couldn’t feel comfortable giving up the ‘hovering’ protection. WHAT IF IT WAS OUR CHILD NEXT….this was the mindset of the local mothers. We didn’t want to feel the intimate pain Terry did. No one does….
The actions of 2 people destroyed a family, destroyed a young girl and will cause extreme mindfuck to 2 young ladies he fathered…..WHY? All for his own sick wills of control! If these lives are disposable to him…..I say…..return the favor….in the most cruelest fashion we can think of…..I think my idea is mild….given what he did!
I can’t fathom the intense emotions and craziness and deprogramming these three young ladies will go through. I can’t imagine what the families have to learn to live with and accept and control their desires to have questions answered, even if there are answers, just for an understanding of the past 18 years. It is overwhelming and their journey will be looonnng!
The answer here is WE ALL NEED TO OPEN OUR EYES……IF SOMETHING DOESN”T SEEM RIGHT……IT ISN”T! GET INVOLVED!

Ox Drover

Yes, I was absolutely dumbfounded when I heard about the cops going there and then NEVER GOING INTO THE BACK YARD THREE YEARS AGO. When I heard the sheriff or whoever he was admitting to that it was the first time I ever heard what even SOUNDEd like a sincere apology for dropping the ball from a public official.

I cannot even imagine the pain the mother of that young woman has gone through during these years, probably giving up her daughter for dead eyars ago, then having her resourface in such horrible condition and knowing she lived under such circumstances for so long.

It obviously wasn’t long after she was kidnapped at age 11 before she had a child (who is now 15) so she was quite young when she had that child, 14 or so—-and my guess is she had little or no medical care during that preg or birth experience, or the next one either.

Yea, people like that guy do make the rest of us want violent vengence—but you know, he is in God’s hands and personally there is nothing we can even imagine that God won’t take care of. If I had a choice of being in your hands or God’s hands, I’d let you do your worst! At least we know he is not going back on the street again.

The wife is a mystery too. I am sure they will probably both go to jail/prison, but it is hard to imagine whether she is a victim too or a victim and an abuser. Stockholm syndrome or another P. Probably never know really. That woman in NY years ago whose lawyer husband starved and beat their illegally adopted children (can’t remember her name) —her name doesn’t matter really as “her name is legion”–for the many women who have been in her shoes throughout the centuries and eons as co-victims and forced to be co-abusers, or at least to observe the abuse helplessly. It breaks my heart as well as makes me mad as hell.

At least we can come here and vent about it and somewhat understand what psychopaths are, the “average joe plumber” doesn’t get it about how common abusers are and thinks only this kind of abuse is psychopathy.”

All we can do is to work on educating the masses as much as we can, and like you said, get involved.

skylar

I have a hard time feeling sorry for the wife, even though I’m sure she was also abused. Perhaps I’m being too harsh, but my P could never have coerced me into harming another person like that. He made me do terrible things to myself but he knew harming others would never fly. It’s what he hated most about me. I’m sure of it.
What he didn’t realize is that there is a reason for this, that has nothing to do with my inner goodness or saintliness which he was always putting down.
After I left him, I went to live with my parents and at some point, I remembered what they did to me as a 3 year old child:
I had a doll and my little 9 mo old sister wanted it to chew on its head. I believed that the doll was my own real baby but my mother forced me to give it to her to chew on its head. It was agonizing to get back the doll with its hair all ruined. This continued for a year until the P infant sister got her own doll (which she never touched). Meanwhile I learned that my feelings didn’t matter but that when someone wants something that is mine, I must give it up. I’m now compelled to sacrifice myself to anyone who needs anything. My own needs don’t matter.
That’s why, in another post, I mentioned seeing the man beating on his wife and I had to go try and protect her despite my fear.
Someone like me, who never learned boundaries and only learned to constantly sacrifice my needs is perfect N-supply.

BloggerT7165

Actually a psychopath can become delusional just like any other person can. Psychopathy can have co-occuring disorders (and often do). The fact that he may now be (or not) delusional does not mean he was not/is not psychopathic as well.

BloggerT7165

Sorry I posted before it was done. So I agree with you Donna when you say that psychopaths are not psychopathic because they are delusional.

BloggerT7165

As for the wife there is this article by Phillip Hodson, fellow British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/30/jaycee-dugard-psychology-abuse

Ox Drover

Blogger,

I read that article and several others about his early heavy use of Cocaine and LSD, and who knows what else….it is also true, as you said, that a psychopath can have other problems, and many of them are bi-polar as well, plus there is no telling how much actual brain damage he had from the drugs and combinations of the drugs.

I have had patients who were bi-polar who would become psychotic and hear voices, etc. at times when they were manic.

Is he responosible for what he did, even if he is NOW frankly psychotic and out of touch with reality? Yea, I think he is, BUT, at the same time, he may be more appropriately housed (after trial if he is found guilty, or not-guilty by reason of mental defect) in a mental institution for the criminally insane. (or dangerously insane, whatever term you want to use).

It is obviouis that the crime took place over several years, also obvious that the man is and has been a sexual predator and in my belief, any sexual predator is a psychopath. He was able to run a business, and make other decisions based on reality and logic and so obviously was “functioning” in society to some extent.

His religious delusions and hearing voices may have been an indication of psycosis, but at the same time, he was functional at least marginally and was able to hide the nature of his crimes.

I think the parole agency obviously dropped the ball in not keeping closer eyes on a KNOWN sexual predator, and the law enforcement which visited his home did not do a reasonable check of the area either.

The “Trojan Horse psychopath,” who has a record of 3 separate sexual attacks on 3 separate vistims, ages 9, 11, and 14 has a parole officer now who did not even know he was a sex offender until I told him. The parole board in Arkansas was going to parole him to a half way house, KNOWING HE WAS A SEX OFFENDER, and that Ark. statute 679 prohibited any sex offender being paroled to a half way house. They did revoke that after I threatened to go to the governor and the news media.

Though Texas had him listed as a level four (highest) and HIGH RISK FOR VIIOLENCE, ARkansas rated him a level 2 which is very low risk and does not require his photo or address on the sex offender web site, ‘BECAUSE HIS CRIMES HAD NOT BEEN COMMITTED IN ARKANSAS”—like crossing the state line made him less dangerous by half!

It was only that he was seen by a friend of mine on a Texas sex offender web site that I was WARNED ABOUT THIS MAN, and it probably saved my life! After his arrest, I took his mug shot and record and went house to house at the home he rented from me in a nearby community and found that he was already apparently GROOMING a 12 yr old boy that lived across the street.

According to Dr. Anna Salter, Ph.D, one of the world’s leading experts in pedophilia, sex offenders can NEVER BE “rehabilitated” and many of them molest hundreds to thousands over their life times and are seldom caught, so who knows how many there are out in our communities that are not even suspected? 10 times the caught ones? 100 times? 1,000 times? Who the heck knows! It is spooky, and myself having known at least one of the most violent and prolific sex offenders who did not actually kill anyone (that we know of) with his own hands, though he did get one of his victims to kill his own family, Charles “jackie” Walls III of Lonoke, Arkansas, it is super scary. I never did like Jackie, though I respected and do respect his father and family, it NEVER DAWNED on me that Jackie might be such a MONSTER.

Jackie, thank God, is in Arkansas’ prison system until he draws his last breath, but how many lives did he ruin, not counting those who died, which include the suicide of his nephew whom he also molested. Yet, all the things that jackie did, I can’t think that he did anything worse than this monster did by taking and keeping this young girl and forcing her to live as a slave and have children by him. God have mercy on that young woman, her family, and those children she bore to such a monster, but at this point, I cannot pray for mercy for the man and his wife, whatever their “emotional” or “mental” problems, the acts they did are EVIL. They at some point knew what they were doing was wrong, and did it anyway.

hens

There is much more to learn about this physco and what took place. Tonite on the news they found a human bone buried in his back yard. I would never let my kids walk to a bus stop regardless how independent they wanted to be. I was hyper over protective of them if we were ever in a shopping mall etc. I dont think there is any worse thing than not knowing who has stolen your child. How many horrible similar cases are out there that we will never know about. ERIN I like your hang him by the balls suggestion but he would prolly get off to that. For some people death is not good enuff, there is no torture good enuff for him. If it was me I would bury him alive in a sound proof box.

Easy

It is the Dumb ones who get caught! BUT look how much damage was done to so many before they where stoped!
Mad mad world!

blueskies

They found a bone fragment, not sure if its human yet. I hope not.

I watched an interview with the two female police officers who raised the alarm and I just was amazed by them. What a lesson to EVERYONE.

The first one spoke of how it wasnt just ‘one thing’ that seemed strange, but a number of different odd behaviours that made her FEEL that something was amiss, and through her years of experience she knew she must act on it.

The second woman said that she instinctively felt that there was something not right with the behaviour of the children and their ‘father’ .

they both went on with they advice to all watching to stay alert about what’s going on around you, to TRUST your GUT instinct and act on it! Half of Amercia(half the world) just got the best piece of advice they’ll ever get right there!!

I hope they give these two women medals.

I notice that there has also been quite a lot of discussion about sociopathy and personality disorders in the media and in discussion forums. I am pleased about that(if you can be pleased about anything to do with this horrendous case).

blueskies

bloggerT, thanks for the link to that article:) It’s well written and very clearly lays out common theories. The ending is familiar though isnt it…

‘The truth, however, is that you can’t have a theory that covers all the reasons why women can commit these sorts of atrocities. There is no satisfactory explanation that can be neatly packaged. Some women have a very poor mental grasp and are swayed by primitive and horrible beliefs.

Some people are, in the old-fashioned lingo, evil.’

Phillip Hodson
The Observer,Sunday 30 August 2009

ThePeregrine

Skylar,

I couldn’t say whether your brother is a sociopath or not, but if so that wouldn’t seem to be the primary concern (I’m not qualified to diagnose, but I have hard-won experience with a sociopath or two).

Regardless, you may be interested to read a book by Adolf Guggenbuhl-Craig, former president of the International Association for Analytical Psychology. He writes about “the archetype of the invalid,” and how sociopaths in particular benefit from creating the illusion that they are weak or disabled.

The book is called “The Emptied Soul.”

Be well,
Jeff

Ox Drover

Glad to see you Jeff,

“Diagnosis” DOES NOT MATTER TO US—diagnosis matters only in a legal/medical sense. WE OBSERVE…the same way we do when someone in our family has SYMPTOMS.

If your child, friend, parent, whomever, had a high fever, “glassy eyes” a horrible and continuing cough, and problems breathing, their lips turning blue, etc. you could not “legally diagniose” pneumonia or influenza, and it could be EITHER of these two things or BOTH. But because you do not have la medical degree, you can’t “diagnose” but just because you can’t “legally diagnose” these diseases or maybe even tell the difference from the SYMPTOMS, you CAN tell pretty easily that your loved one is SICK, SICK SICK

Not being able to “diagnose” a psychopath legally and put that diagnosis on their medical record doesn’t mean, however, that we can not put 2 and 2 together and come up with 4. We can look at a list of symptoms that in general MATCH the list of symptioms a person would have if they had pneumonia, then look at the person and see they are sick, and the same with psychopathy. If they are not 100% a “match” in psychopathy, like “horseshoes and handgrenades” CLOSE IS GOOD ENOUGH.

Of course like most disorders, there are different degrees of it, some worse than others. Using pneumonia as an analogy again, there is “walking pneumonia” with means the person might feel badly but they are up walking around and not likely to drop over dead any time soon. Then there is the pneumonia which requires a person be put on a ventilator or they would immediately die. Even most physicians can’t diagnose “walking pneumonia” without an X-ray of the lungs, but most people can look at someone with terminal pneumonia and at least say “If someone doesn’t do something now, that person isn’t going to live another hour.”

Each of us has, as ThePeregrine” says, a “HARD WON EXPERIENCE WITH A SOCIOPATH OR TWO.”

We may never go to medical school, and get a license do “diagnosis” a psychopath, but that doesn’t mean we can’t “spot” and identify for our own safety what sure LOOKS like psychopathic behavior in an individual.

Keep on learning, and learning and learning!!!!

skylar

Jeff, I’ll look into it, thanks.

Easy

If it looks like poop and smells like poop and feels like poop and tastes like poop don’t step in it!

http://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/08/26/thriving-in-your-situation/

Saw some interesting articles today, thought I’d share. In them are some words I don’t recalling seeing much of until recently…maybe the word is getting out and around a bit.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/bondingwithacaptorwhyjayceedugarddidntflee;_ylt=Ar6MV0qxJ2WGnGPJCrtqcnkDW7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTNvZmw4azY4BGFzc2V0A2xpdmVzY2llbmNlLzIwMDkwOTAxL2JvbmRpbmd3aXRoYWNhcHRvcndoeWpheWNlZWR1Z2FyZGRpZG50ZmxlZQRwb3MDNwRzZWMDeW5fYXJ0aWNsZV9zdW1tYXJ5X2xpc3QEc2xrA2JvbmRpbmd3aXRoYQ–

http://www.livescience.com/culture/090831-what-makes-a-monster.html

Oxy- I can’t find the other article I found interesting today. I’ll keep looking, but in it were quotes and statements from his trial in the 70’s…where the good dr said his brain wasn’t damaged, the drugs were just excuses.

bunny

Oh boy I really feel so sorry for that little girl, how awful for her mother to have gone through all the worry about her and then to find out that that happened to her. How simply horriffic.

And to think after all that, this guy thinks that he has found God and “its all good now”. “Wait until you hear the whole story, expect to be surprised – but in a good way”. It is so strange.

On another note its great the women are now using their intuition on the job. I read that the most successful men in business were those who were unfraid to use their intuition, but that women were abandoning their intuition and trying to ‘think like a man’, in order to be taken seriously in the workplace.

The article went on to say that if only women could go back to using their intuition they would be so much better at their jobs – the story of the two police women seems to validate that point — good move.

Hecates path

Glinda,
Thanks for sharing those links… that livescience one was especially interesting.
HP

Ox Drover

Dear Glinda,

Thanks for the links. The MOST DISTURBING THING of it all was the “comments” made about the article by various of the “public.”

You watch though, the “insanity” defense will be used on this one, and who knows, maybe successfully.

Rapists, in my humble opinion, should be incarcerated for life the FIRST time. When I was a kid, rape was a death sentence (especially violent “stranger” rape) Heck, in my opinion, it should be a capital offense. To me, it is WORSE than murdering someone.

At the very least, I think ANY three felonies should put you away for life without parole.

But, I’m, on my soap box again, got to get up and get to work, and let my blood pressure go down! See you guys later.

kim frederick

Oxy, I’m confused. What do you mean ,”the most disturbing thing…”? Are you agreeing or disagreeing with the public?

Ox Drover

Most of what I read in the way of comments were, to me, showing that the commenters did NOT understand WHAT the man was….or WHAT the author of the article was saying.

My heart went out to the woman who commented that she had gone back and gone back to the man who abused her and her daughters for 16 years. I think she could relate to the wife of the man in many ways, as well as to Jaycee.

It disturbs me that the general public thinks that psychopaths are ONLY this type of MONSTER when much much more commonly the psychopath who emotionally or even sexually abuses his/her family (and/or others) lives next door to them.

These sensational cases hit the news media and the abusers are called psychopaths, whereas you never see a head line that says “Joe Smith, called his wife and daughter Bitches and made them cry.” or “Joe smith went to a hooker and spent the rent money” or “Joe Smith has a girlfriend and just brought home an STD to his wife.” The millions of psychopaths that make the lives of those around them miserable never make the “headlines” or are called sociopaths in public, or lots of times even thought badly of in their community because the public no longer notices this kind of behavior as TOXIC. It has become ALL TOO COMMON in our society and culture today me thinks.

kim frederick

Oxy, thanks for your reply. I have to admit I didn’t read all the comments, but the first couple were from women who thought the article was a little callious, and definately phallo-centric. I tended to agree. The author may have a valid biological point, but for God’s sake I find younger MEN more attractive, and just because I can’t attract one to me does NOT entitle me to kidnap and rape one. We are not primates.
I asked you what you meant because I value your opinion and almost always agree. I think you’re are right that the public misunderstands the true nature of psychopathy, because they only hear that word attached to the most heinious crimes.

kim frederick

I wanted to add, I watched a, “Secret Lives of Women, episode last night, about the poligimous FLDS. I believe the real motivation behind this philosophy is psychopathic. The spreading of the seed, in order to gain power by multiplying it. That, on top of the obvious benefit to men. Of course the women remain uneducated, and completely indoctrinated into the belief that their only purpose on this earth is motherhood. E-Gads. I guess the articals’ mention of Ghengis Khan, is what sparked this comment.

Ox Drover

Dear Kim,

Well, actually we ARE primates, we are the “Naked Ape”—there is a book by that name, BTW that has a great deal of good information about our instinctive behavior which is quite interesting, also one called “Body Language”—and BTW about 90% of our “communication” is not verbal, but the way we act, posture, expressions on our faces, etc.

HOWEVER, you are RIGHT, we should not “behave” like Kahn and his troups, we should be have in a “civilized” manner, but there will always be those that do NOT, who will get what they want with manipulation and/or FORCE.

Society has “rules”—any society–which tries to enforce the generally held views of “morality’ in that society. Of course in the days of Kahn, FORCE and POWER was the “law”—the biggest, most powerful man was literally “god” to those under him, however, he had to watch his back and not be killed by someone seeking to take his place. It was literally dog-eat-dog in that society. Organized force to steal from others, to enslave them. There are many places today that that kind of reign of terror is still in place, and they aren’t all in the “third world” countries either, but many are.

People kill others in the name of religion, politics, or just plain greed. Not all of humanity agrees with our phiilosophy of what is “right and wrong.” Even if the general society does agree with us, there are always individuals who will act contrary to the widely accepted mores of that society. I guess since Cain killed Able that people have been jealous of others, wanted what they had and were willing to kill for it. Human “nature” is sometimes pretty self-serving, and law, culture and a moral compass strive to over come this, but doesn’t always succeed.

(sigh) It would be nice if we lived in a world where people did treat others “as you would be treated” but unfortunately, that is not the case. Since we can’t opt out of living on this earth, what WE must do is to learn the signs and symptoms of those that would abuse us or others, and AVOID them if at all possible. We cannot change them, or change society as a whole. We can ONLY CHANGE OUR REACTIONS to what is going on around us. We are only one person (each) but we can stand up for what is RIGHT and what is GOOD, and spread the word to others and hope that they too will protect themselves from abusers and users. We can’t fix the world, we can just make our little corner of it better, but if enough people do that, then the world does become a better place. (((hugs))))

skylar

WOW! OXY! GREAT IDEA!
A newspaper called the psychopathic press.
We would report on S behaviors. Both parties would need to be interviewed of course, so that our reporting would be “fair and balanced” LOL.
The P’s always give themselves away, so it wouldn’t be hard to “out” them.
Can I be Bill O’Reilly?

Ox Drover

Dear Skylar,

I hope you are better looking than O”reilly! LOL

As for newspaper or TV news or show, I’m not sure there is such a thing as “both sides” and “fair reporting”–frankly, I would rather not interview the Ps- it gives them attention which is what they crave above all else.

BloggerT7165

OxDrover,

This is a little off topic but this article is something that I think you may appreciate and talks about an aspect that I see in many toxic people – http://www.virtus.org/virtus/index.cfm?free_articles_id=771&scheddate=08-10-2009

ErinBrock

May I request to be placed on the nomination list for interviewers for the Psychopathetic press.
MWHAAAAAAHAAAHAHAH

skylar

blogger, thanks for that extra reminder.
We all know that the P’s only real function is to remind us of how NOT to be. But sometimes, we don’t see that we are being like a P.
Breaking the rules. That is textbook P behavior.
Do we need to start a list?
I’m only half-joking.

Ox Drover

Dear Blogger,

Yes, thanks for that link, I saved it in my favorites. It is a good reminder that the “little things” we do show character as well as the BIG things.

Since all of the past couple of years with the chaos and now trying to work on healing, I realized that I have “overlooked” a lot of “small” things in people—and then been “suprised” when they did BIGGER things. LOL I’ve known that all along though, but let my own “radar” slip when dealing with others sometimes. I associated with “bad company” and as the wisdom of the Bible says “evil companions corrupt good morals.” If we hang around people who do immoral and criminal things, it starts to become “normal” to us for people to do this so we get to the point we don’t even notice it any more.

I used to laugh about how honest kids are. My step dad who was a great guy was giving me a talk on honesty and how the Bible commanded us to obey the laws of the land unless they were in conflict with God’s laws, and I asked him if the speed limit was the law and he said “Yes” then I said, “If Iwe are supposed to obey the laws of the land, how come YOU always SPEED and break the law?” I was probably 6 or 7 at the time, but he saw that the example he was setting for me was not consistent with what he was DOING. Even though I was a little kid, I NOTICED he wasn’t doing what he SAID was right.

Our kids DO notice how we “preach” to them with our actions, which are not always consistent with the WORDS we try to “preach” to them with. I think most of the time, how we model behavior for them wins out over what we SAY. At the same time, though, our kids have free will and free choice when they choose their adult life path, and though I was for sure not a perfect parent, I did model better behavior than my P-son has adopted. Plus, my other sons are good men, so they made wiser choices. I dont take the blame for my P son, but also i don’t take all the credit for my good sons either. I just did the best I could with what I knew at the time. I do know they were all loved.

skylar

Erin, it would be my honor to nominate you as an interviewer for the PPress!

BTW, I have a funny story that you may all enjoy.
I have a P brother in law whom I’m 95% sure is also my P’s trojan horse. He is a cop, a lawyer and now works for homeland security. All of these things he attained after marrying my sister. Before that he was just a patrol cop.
Also good with computers and surveillance equipment.
Anyway, that is the background info you need so you can laugh at the funny part:
One evening about 3 years ago, he called me and said, “We’re watching the Colbert Report, it’s such a great show.”
“Really?” I replied, “I love that show, I love Stephen Colbert, isn’t he great?”
“You do?” he asked in a perplexed voice.
“Yes, he is so funny! I responded.
So the conversation went on this way for a bit. In case you are not aware, the Colbert Report is on Comedy Central and Stephen Colbert is spoofing Bill O’Reilly of Fox news because O’Reilly is a narcissist. EVERYTHING is about him.
After a few moments speaking with the BIL, I realized that the BIL didn’t KNOW THAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE FUNNY.
He thought Colbert’s stupid behavior was his real personality and he LIKED IT. I explained to him that it was a spoof on O’Reilly.
“Na-uhhh!” he said. Really that’s what this 40 year old man said, “Na-uhhh!” like a 6 year old boy.
After a bit of discussion in which I was hard pressed to convince him that this was comedy and satire on the right wing agenda and specifically on that stupid O’Reilly, we hung up.
Next day, I called him and asked if he was watching the Colbert Report. “No, we don’t like that show anymore.” he said.

LOL. Narcissists are really stupid people. They cannot read other people unless they are making the effort during a con or planning a con. They should be really easy to dupe, you just need to know what you are dealing with before you begin.
I’ve always known my BIL was evil because he has never been able to hide it, I just didn’t know what a narcissist was.

Ox Drover

Dear Skylar,

The problem in duping them is that when they realize they have been duped, they become really pithed and VENGEFUL. They have NO sense of humor at all.

Your BIL sounds absolutely dangerous to me, given his position. I think I would avoid him at all costs. The less you have to do with this kind of pervert, the less likely you are to attract their wrath and vengence.

It doesn’t suprise me though that he didn’t get the spoof, and yes, sometimes they ARE STOOOOOO-PID. Stupid and mean is a bad combination, probably worse than smart and mean.

skylar

yep, I avoid him now, but at the time, I didn’t know about NPS.

Good grief- Garrido was arrested and subsequently let loose in 1972 for another attack on a 14yo. Disgusting- he never should have been loose to grab Jaycee.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/nation/story/C7A639F3C214EE938625762600818665?OpenDocument

ANewLily

Skylar, Bill O’Reilly is a narcissist? By whom was he professionally evaluated?

As far as I know, Bill O’Reilly is a right wing conservative (as is at least half of the U.S.A.) and definitely speaks his mind — and personal opinions. But, personality disordered? If so, I never noticed it.

Clue me in, okay?

NotYourDaddy

OxDrover,

The Naked Ape and The Human Zoo books from Desmond Morris were enlightening when I read them. We are just overgrown apes, but now we have supertribes.

There’s a book I’ve been meaning to get about psychopaths who run the world at large, called “Political Ponerology – A Science on the nature of evil adjusted for political purposes”

http://www.amazon.com/Political-Ponerology-Science-Adjusted-Purposes/dp/1897244258/

(kind of goes hand in hand with Desmond Morris books)

skylar – on breaking the rules… Oh yes that’s a top one for the list. also – disdain for those who don’t break the rules.

hens

Hi Newlily – Skylar I agree with you opinion about O’rielly – but I am glad your the one that brought it up. 🙂

ANewLily

Well, then, Henry, I ask you also to clue me in!!! What am I missing? I know I am by nature nieve (sp) but I am politically active and have been for years and years and years.

Maybe I am just positioned on the other side of the aisle? LOL

hens

well I stand corrected Newlily – I am not qualified to diagnose a personality disorder, just a–holes, and that is a matter of personal opinion – SKYLAR where did you go? Lily was mostly wanting to say hello too you anyhow…you know me, my fingers just wont stop pecking sometime…

skylar

Hey, I’m still online, I’ve been looking at the mythology studies of Joseph Campbell – the man was a savior.
Anyway,
NewLily,
A narcissist is very opinionated, but that is not what makes him a narcissist. BO is a narcissist because every story that he discusses, every political agenda is always about HIM. Pay close attention to his Me Me Me agenda. In the end, he could not care less about reality, he only cares about HIS reality. With Fox news the primary goal is getting an emotional reaction from its audience, because it gets people addicted to their own outrage and adrenalin -good for ratings. That, to me, is showing sociopathic behavior. ISN’T THAT WHAT THE P’S DID TO US ALL THE TIME?
Where is the calm, rational news reporting of days past? These guys don’t even try to hide it with shows like “Crossfire” or whatever.
John Stewart, THE COMEDIAN, is now considered America’s most trusted news anchor. What does that tell you?
All of these behaviors are so insidious that you don’t even notice it anymore- JUST LIKE OUR Ps’ gaslighting.
But, if you watch The Colbert Report (the show my P and my P-BIL cannot stand), you will begin to see how he is imitating O’Reilly (whom he affectionately refers to as “Papa Bear”) and you will see O’Reilly as the emporer with no clothes.
BTW, all my P’s love O’Reilly, just because he is such a gaslighter. and they love hot talk AM radio and that fat Rush thing. It’s all about keeping everyone angry all the time. They really couldn’t care less about the country.

skylar

New Lily,
just forget for a moment about the political platform, and just watch THE MANNER THAT IT IS PRESENTED.
I’m not a lawyer but I could argue on either side all day long, that’s just my nature. So I don’t bother with the arguements, I just watch the personalities and the resulting behavior. We at LF, of all people, should know how critical this is because WE KNOW THAT P’S LIE and they wear masks.

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