By | February 18, 2011 108 Comments

While her baby lay dying, mom goes shopping

A Toronto woman was convicted of manslaughter for failing to seek medical attention for her badly scalded 19-month-old son. Melissa Alexander said the child pulled a bowl of hot water on himself, but experts testified that his injuries were consistent with being immersed in hot water. Then, as the baby lay screaming, Alexander went shopping, leaving the toddler’s 3-year-old brother to babysit.

Here’s the article. Be sure to read the two links under “More related to this story.”

Toronto woman convicted of manslaughter for infant son’s scalding death on

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Ox Drover

The only positive thing about this that I can see is that apparently the child was so deeply burned (3rd degree) that he would not have experienced pain because the nerve ends were cooked.

I do hope that the mother goes to prison, and I think that she definitely deserves to go to prison. One commenter suggested she be sterilized, and I agree with that.


Only goes to show that just because they can reproduce, doesn’t mean they should……Yes prison. Although it does not seem enough.

What an awful story.

Ox Drover

A friend of mine is raising 4 kids that her P-step daughter spit out, and after the birth of the 4th one, her parents tried to get her to have her tubes tied. At the time, she was not taking care of ANY of her children. She said “No, I might want to have another baby.” Well, she did have another baby, #5, born in PRISON. Her dad called her bio mother and said, “we’re raising 4, this one is yours.” At that point the daughter got her tubes tied. All of these kids except the first two are by unknown (and different) fathers.

I don’t understand why psychopaths seem to be so intent on procreation….especially the women. I WANTED kids and I didn’t enjoy being pregnant or the birth process at all. But they don’t even seem to want the kids after they get them here, so what’s the big deal with the procreation? Why go through the pain and strain of pregnancy and child birth if you don’t want the net product? I can understand the guys making lots of babies and then waltzing off into the sunset to let someone else raise them, no pain at all. But the women? ???? Just doesn’t make any sense to me.

Especially with birth control options available and cheap….just doesn’t make any sense at all…(head shaking here in wonderment)

The thing is though, in order to be burned that deeply, that child had to be HELD into that water for some time, just like cooking an egg, no matter how hot the skillet is, the egg doesn’t cook IMMEDIATELY, it takes a little while of being in the skillet to cook through…the same with the kid. If he had been simply dipped in there and right back out even in boiling water, he wouldn’t have been that badly burned (probably only 1st degree or second degree) in which case the kid would have been in so much pain he would have been SCREAMING—not lying quietly when daddy got home.

Gosh, I have got to quit reading this stuff, it is making my blood pressure go up! It makes me want to do bad things to the people who do such things to children. It makes me fantasize about some pretty sick things I’d like to do to them. BREATHE—breathe—-breathe!

lesson learned


This is so nauseating. I have six children, but I wanted them ALL. I can’t imagine what in God’s name this woman was thinking.

It’s so hard to comprehend the evilness of spaths in the first place, but killing your own child???? OMG, I just don’t get it.

I just don’t understand.


This is so sickening that I didn’t read beyond the headline, but here are some important facts taken from some dated litigation that everyone, especially all parents and grandparents, should know.

It is easy to receive third degree burns from exposure to hot tap water. An approximate one-second exposure to 160 degree F water will result in third degree burns. Where the water is 130 degree F, an approximate half-minute exposure will result in third degree burns.

This is the reason that the Consumer Product Safety Commission suggests that water heaters be set to a maximum temperature of 120 degree F, even though an approximate ten minute exposure to water heated to this temperature can result in third degree burns. According to data from the National Safe Kids Campaign, 4,000-5,000 children are scalded each year, most often in bathtubs. The average bathtub scald burn covers 12 percent of the body surface with a full thickness third degree burn. A safe temperature for hot water is 110 degree F, which exposure to results in third degree burns in approximately ten hours. It is important to remember that 212 degree F is the boiling point of water, meaning that the temperatures at which exposure to water will result in burns is much less than the boiling point of water.

I most certainly agree with everyone’s comments above.




And she’ll say……at least I arranged for a babysitter!?!?!?!?

Annie….get your gun!

Ox Drover

Many people with automatic dishwashers keep their hot water up high enough to get the dishes pretty “clean” and that is about 140 degrees.

Since the natural gas company ruined my water and I can no longer use my automatic dishwasher, or drink my well water, I keep the hot water temp at 110 or less—from years of making cheese, which in many cases requires a temp of 110 degrees, I found I could put my hand in water 110 degrees but NOT KEEP IT THERE FOR EVEN A SECOND. I had to immediately pull it out. I can put my hand in water 105 and leave it there “forever” as it will not burn or be uncomfortable.

Most nursing home regulations require hot water temperature of 110 or less as well. With hot water at 105 you can take a shower without turning on any cold water to cool down your shower, so if you have young children, use that as a temperature control. If you have to add water to your “hot” water to cool it down for a shower, it is too hot and might harm a baby or young person or an elderly person who might not have temperature sensitivity enough to realize it was too hot in time to avoid burns.


Unfortunately, this is very similar to a case that happened in my area not too long ago. Mom (living in a motel) put toddler in a scalding hot tub because she wet the bed. Then she waited two days, took the child on a bus to her friends home. The friend called 911 but it was too late and the child died.

This child had been raised in a foster home and the mom had just regained custody of the child. The foster parents were interviewed and were so distraught they could barely speak. They had warned DCF the child should not go back to the mom. They had wanted to adopt this child that they had cared for since she was born.

Something is so very wrong with a society that cares so little about their children.

Ox Drover

Dear MiLo,

The “rights of the parents” are so “protected” by the courts and the “system” over the RIGHTS of the CHILDREN. Personally I do not think a parent has ANY RIGHT to have a child, only a privilege to have one. A Child, however, has a RIGHT to a good and loving and nurturing home….and our society should see that the child’s rights are protected, not the parent’s.

Glad to see you around. How is your grand son? Has the P backed off any on the visitation and custody thing? I wonder about how you are doing! You are in my prayers!


Oxy –

You are so correct “rights of the parent” – I review many of our State Supreme Court decisions regarding custody cases. Whenever they are faced with determining whether permanent custody should be removed from biological parents they ALWAYS preface their decision by stating that they view removing parental rights the same as death sentences in a criminal case !! What the ****? And federal laws regarding parental rights are even stronger. If only the “natural parents” would view their rights and obligations with the same seriousness.

Thanks for asking, my grandson is doing very well, made straight “A”‘s the last grading period. He has many emotional and behavioral issues including ADHD and high functioning autism but, I can see progress all around. Patience and tolerance is the name of the game. And a whole lot of love.

Just last week we regained our legal custody of him. P is already skipping visits and I just discovered during these months of her “changed my life forever” “sunshine, lollipops and rainbows” she and long time boyfriend have been arrested for domestic violence. Now she has another child ( 2 yrs. ) that is being subjected to the same BS that Grand was. While it may sound heartless, this one we cannot and will not take responsibility for.

Thanks for the prayers, they are always appreciated. Take care of yourself.

Ox Drover

Dear Milo,

Glad that your grandson is doing well and so sorry to hear that she has another baby. I know it must break your heart to not be able to help that child as well, knowing what it is subject to. I applaud you for having the wisdom to limit your involvement to what you can handle. My friend with the 4 kids she is raising of the step daughter’s is stressed to the max and has essentially given up a life of her own in order to take care of those kids (who all have problems) In addition to those 4 she has the 2 sons of her deceased step son (he suicided and the mother was literally starving the children) so at one point she had 6 kids all under 12 and ALL loaded with problems. So NO, It does NOT sound heartless at all for you to not take on another child, when the one you have is a hand full. I think it is more important for you to be an excellent caregiver to one child than a poorer, stressed-out caregiver to 2. None of us can solve the problems of the whole world or take in every child that needs a home or love. We just do what we can do—and leave some room for someone else. Maybe you can get CPS involved if they are not already involved with the DV arrests etc. You take care of YOURSELF too, I am learning to do just that. (((hugs))))

Distressed Grandmother

Some how this women reminded me of some of my FADS children.In my business A lot of the Children with FASD have the Same behaviors as a spath. They seem to have no sense of consequence. They show little remorse but yet at times can be the most loving people I ever met. They are very loyal but in the next breath they will stab you in the back not even realizing that they done it. Some FASD children do not have as severe behaviors yet some more damaged do. Drinking must damage the same brain cells that spaths have damaged that they inherited. I t has to be brain damage of some sort. If it is this makes it even harder to walk away although probably much safer. My heart is always playing with my mind.To love or not to love. To choose or not to choose. To say or not to say. To want or not to want. These are all hard choices for all of us but to not have common sense to make these choose or the sense of instinct would have to make me feel sorry for these people. Only from a distance though as I also know what they are capable of. How sad really. God watch over and protect my grandchildren.

Ox Drover

Dear Grandmother,

Yes, it is difficult to decide what to do, but I think you’re right that “love from a distance” is about all we can do when we are dealing with them. With my psychopath son who is in prison, I think I have passed beyond “love” in that I no longer worry about that MAN, the little boy that I loved is GONE and the Man is a stranger, not someone I love.

My other biological son is a liar and I don’t want anything to do with him…I love him, but from a DISTANCE. I haven’t seen him in over a year and realized that I don’t even want to lay eyes on him. I have collected a box of his “stuff” he left around here when he moved, nothing important but also some mail that is, and he’s supposed to come over to get it Sunday. I plan to put it on the porch with a note that says “Sorry, I missed you.” The door will be locked. I just don’t want to deal with him any more except from a distance. I don’t hate him, just can’t trust him and interactions are too painful and in now way positive…I pray for your grandchildren as well. (((hugs))))

Distressed Grandmother

You know Oxy that is how I am starting to feel about my daughter and it scares me that if she is being brain washed that I should not feel that way. I should give her the benefit of the doubt until I know she really hates me that much. A women sometimes does strange things for the love of a man and the daughter I used to have was not the best but worth loving and having around although life was not always easy with her. We definitely think different but that is ok. She never lied to me before, for her own gain. She never stole from me.She would keep things from me that she did not want me to know but that is ok to she is a adult. She would help herself some times to food and toilet paper but always told me. So I start to feel bad because I do not at this point really care if I see her again or not.At this point I need to do this to protect myself. The sound of her sweet voice I do not trust anymore as a matter of fact it makes me sick to hear the phony sweet voice to my face as she stabs me in the back. I do not even know if things changed tomorrow if we will ever feel the same way we did before it will be hard to ever trust her again. The deeper I get in this mess the more I start to not like her. I am not even sure I love her anymore. I have thought like I wished I gave her up for adoption. or I should have never had her By having her I hurt her and three boys not to mention everyone else involved. I never thought I would think like that about any of my children. It is like I do not even know my self anymore. All my family values are gone that I carried for 58 years. It is like I have to start my life over again change my way of thinking my way of feeling. It is like I am stuck in a mid life crises and I do not who I am or what to do or where to go. It is very scary for me right now. I am starting to get hard and that was never me. I could always find a way to make life right but now I can not. I know I have to make changes in my life but I have no Idea where to start. Well enough of my rattling.Have a good night.


Distressed grandma,
I fel exactly as you do. I havent seen my older spath daughter for almost 2 years now, and I dont miss her now. I used to worry about her all th time, how she was paying the rent, if shed get the sack from her latest job, and Id get the usual croc tears on the phone, asking for money to pay the rent, bills, on and on.Ive baled her out in the past to the tune of well oer $10,000 but cant afford to do thisa ny more, and it used to p–me off that she only ever used to call me if she needed help,{ie, great wads of cash}
I dont need this kind of worry in my life, I cant handle it any more,and I feel less and les love for he r every day. To be honest all I feel now for her and her sister,{the one who has never ever let me see her kids,now 14, 12, and 2,}is contempt and disgust. My ONE boundary was a n apology, but I know now Ill never get one, and it would be meaningless anyway, just a means to screw me all over again. Her ex husband rang me the other evening, stressed to the max, telling me she has only given him $400–in child support in 4 months,{he now has FT custody of the 3 kids.}He is basically paying for everything, school uniforms, trips, extras, a rent of $550–a week, phone bills,
the kids 3 mobiles ,electicity, food, the lot. Shegives him almost nothing. he told me she promised him $200– and waited to see it had been put into his bank account. Nothing. So, he rang her up again, she insisted shed paid it in.”Gem, he said, I waited another week, no money. She lies like she breathes.” And she had a wild party in his house, while baby sittin HER OWN kids in HIS HOME, while he was seeing his GF. He told me the place was a wreck, but he made her stay and clean it up. She did this to me often as a teenager, but WTF?? she will be 47 in July, a middle aged woman, who has never grown up!
Sad to say if Id my life over again, Id have had an abortion.


To say that a parent should not have “any right to have a child”, etc. is a pretty scary statement to me. One of the first things I noticed when I became aware of sociopaths in our society is that the modern way of thinking seems to become more and more sociopathic as time goes on. That is to say, the control over what others can and cannot do just gets worse and worse over time. Every year more laws are enacted to entangle us and paralyze us, just like a sociopath will come up with more and more rules that cannot possibly all be followed at once, leading to a paralyzing chaos that leaves them in total control. If people could worry about themselves, what makes them healthy and simply feeds them, simply clothes them, simply shelters them, leaving behind greed (and controlling what others do is a sort of greed), well then the world would run pretty smoothly. Yeah thats a pipe dream for sure, because try convincing billions of people to leave others alone and just worry about themselves (same as we learned in kindergarden). Of course we understand that if another is being harmed, like the baby that was burned in the above story, that a rescue is in order. BUT that does not justify the restriction of the life liberty and happiness of the rest of us, simply because someone was out of there mind over there scalding a baby. Emergencies do not constitute a ban on all reason. It’s not code red at all times because a baby might get scalded by water. No. Then “they” would win. Then “they” would have us running around alarmed and so confused at all times, they could get away with whatever they wanted.


BeAware —

“It’s not code red at all times because a baby might get scalded by water. No.” REALLY BeAware REALLY.

Maybe we should be “running around alarmed”

Somehow I do not think laws that protect children from unspeakable abuse and neglect restricts our life liberty and happiness. Oh, I am thankful I did not attend the same “kindergarden” as you did because I could not live with myself if I looked the other way and only worried about myself.


Ox Drover

BeAware, I think What I was speaking about the RIGHTS of CHILDREN and no parent has a RIGHT to have a child unless they also accept the RESPONSIBILITY to take care of that child.

Milo’s daughter has 2 children, neither of which she takes care of. Milo is raising one of the children, but can’t raise both of them. The mother of the two children is a drug addict and a psychopath. She has NO RIGHT to have a child because she will not take care of it. Recently after Milo having the child for several years, and legal custody, and the childn’s mother having NO CONTACT WITH THE CHILD or any support paid or done, she went back to court to try to get custody away from Milo, and Milo had to go back to court, spend more money, more stress and more time showing the court AGAIN that the child’s mother had NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT CHILD AND SHOULD HAVE NO RIGHT to have the child in her custody. The court did give her “visitation” though, but even that she failed to do in a responsible manner—and SHE AND HER BOY FRIEND WERE ARRESTED FOR DOMESTIC VIOLENCE during this time she was petitioning the court for custody of the child Milo has raised for years.

Children are HELPLESS—they don’t ask to be brought into this world, but anyone who does PROCREATE has a responsibility to care for that infant—not neglect it. CHILDREN have the RIGHT to care4—not neglect or abuse. Parents who don’t care for their children should have NO RIGHTS to those children.

Another woman made the news today for getting drunk and passing out on top of her infant daughter, smothering the infant, then she tried to pass it off as a “crib death”—-I was stunned at the comments of some of the people about the article. At least half didn’t want this woman prosecuted because “she had suffered enough losing the child.” SHE HAD SUFFERED? SHE??? SUFFERED???? No, the CHILD suffered, the mother didn’t suffer. She cared so little about her child that she got falling down drunk and high and passed out on top of the kid but she had “sense enough” afterward to try to cover it up. The article mentioned to that the mother of the woman gave her a piece of gum to try to mask the scent of booze on her breath when she finally did call the police to report her child had “suddenly died.” The fact that the child’s “head was mashed” sort of gave away that she was lying though. The young woman’s mother trying to help her cover for her BOOZE BREATH though shows to me that the whole family had a problem, not just the one younger woman. That child is better off deceased than being raised by a mother like that. I have NO sympathy for the mother/father who gets drunk/high and neglects or harms a child.

Distressed Grandmother

Oxy you are one hundred percent right as far as I am concerned. Our laws are to protect the adults not the children and it is alright to pass out on top of a child. I have been through this recently but with a older child that was big enough to get out and live The law said this was alright to pass out on top of this child naked because he was drunk and did not know what he was doing and my grandson was then returned again to a bad home. My daughter condoned this by comparing this to another incident that happened a few years ago. Total different story My son was at my home not his he did get drunk passed out on one of my kids beds with his underwear on and the child was not in the bed but had went to sleep under the bed. He was young and would sleep under there some times why I do not know. To me there is a big difference hear but she could not see it. I am sure if my son was home he would have passed out in his own bed not his children,s bed. I do not care how drunk you are I think you know where your bed is that you go to night after night. I really have a hard time dealing with stupid people who should know better.


Oxy ~ thanks for sharing my “story” and understanding. There is more to my grandson’s legacy. His biological father served the first 8 years of my 10 year old grandson’s life in prison for armed robbery and kidnapping. As soon as he was released from prison he immediately got another girl pregnant and has a now two year old child. That widowed grandmother is trying to figure out how she is going to raise that child, it will be inevitable. She is a well educated, warm, loving woman who is still trying to figure out where she went wrong with her son.

My daughter is my adopted daughter. Her biological mother went on to have two more children after my daughter was removed from her custody. One of those children is grown and has a child of his own. He sells food stamps for crack. He punishes his 6 year old son by hanging his pet dog in front of him. He has tattooed a penis on his son’s back. My daughter’s biological mother is aware that this is going on but won’t contact DCF because “No grandchild of hers will go into foster care”.

I am 63 years old. My parents were foster parents. I was a foster parent for 14 years. I worked with DCF for over 20 years, until I couldn’t take it anymore. So please, DON’T talk to me about the rights of so called “parents”.

Ox Drover

Dear Milo,

I only knew part of your story, MiLo, but I thought that BeAware had not understood where you and/or I were coming from.

Is there no way that YOU can report the abuse of that child? A penis tattoo’d on the child’s back? If that is not abuse, what the FARK IS ABUSE? Sounds like your daughter’s DNA donor is at least partly responsible for your daughter’s problems both genetically as well as environmentally.

It is unfortunate that so many of the psychopaths do procreate and procreate and procreate again…passing on the dysfunctional genes with an added element of fetal alcohol syndrome or crack addiction in the child….then add in a big dose of abuse and what have you got? Another generation of people abusing each other, society, and producing more children who are abused. It breaks my heart.

Distressed Grandmother

What I do not understand is how can these social workers sleep at night after making these choices because policy says. I would like to take that word policy right out of the dictionary. Where are the rights for these children in there policy’s. I would have to be on Prozac and sleeping pills just to handle that job. Well I guess it is a dirty job and some one has to do it. I too am a foster parent and have not seen a worker in almost a year at my home because they can not even face me after what they have put me through. They have seen my kids but not me. They changed the kids worker and I have had phone contact with her and went to the office one day and saw her but not a worker in this home at all for almost a year. Isn’t that something.They must have a consensus or they would have been here.


Oxy – you know, I think that it is a good thing sometimes that most people have no idea where some of us come from. It ain’t pretty. If I did not see an abundance of love, sympathy and empathy in my grandson, I would be even more scared of the future. Oh, I have turned the tattoo freak in, but did not leave my name. I could not chance that one getting out even though it is suppose to be confidential. When no one gives a name, that complaint goes to the bottom of the pile. And my daughters DV – the police notified DCF. I’m sure by now she has lied her way out of that one. She once told DCF she had been sitting in the hospital all night, at her mother’s bedside (me) to make sure she was going to live. (I was at a Holiday Inn that very night enjoying the hot tub) When the worker called me and asked if I was strong enough to talk I was like WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.

Distressed Grand ~ I agree to some extent with your views on social workers. I have worked with some GREAT ones, who go that extra mile. Then I have seen some that just don’t give a damn. BUT, many times it is an occupation that is easy to just “burn out”. It is like beating you head against a brick wall. From what I have seen (and lived) it is like some police officers, arresting drunk drivers only to see them put back on the streets within hours by the courts. Many of the DA’s assigned to handle cases for DCF are very inexperienced or at the bottom of the barrel in qualifications. They either blow the case that the social worker has worked so hard putting together or the JUDGES simply don’t listen or care. Let’s face it – the system DOES NOT WORK.

If a worker has not visited in your home for the past year, someone is really dropping the ball.


As far as the tattoo on the child, perhaps your best bet is to make an anonymous phone call to his TEACHER. Tell him/her to check the child’s body and then HE/SHE can report to the authorites. Also, there is the option of the child’s DOCTOR. Drop a call so that the notes are in the child’s chart for next time he gets a checkup or gets sick.

That mofo needs to get his head ripped off for doing something like that. Did you actually SEE the tattoo?


Hi skylar ~

No, I have not actually seen the tattoo myself. I don’t even know (and I don’t want to, believe me) my daughter’s biological family. I only know what my daughter tells me and ofcourse she is a gifted liar. I think it is so hard to explain someone like my daughter and I could only do it to people on here that “get it”. She is a psychopath through and through and is capable of unspeakable acts herself, yet she becomes almost fascinated with outrageous things others do. If that makes sense. Anyway, I have looked up criminal histories on these people and I do believe what she is saying. I know there is a strong involvement with drugs and domestic violence and stalking etc.

They live in another area of our state and I would have no way of knowing what school or teacher, but that would be a great idea. Actually, I would hope the teachers are noticing something!! I doubt that these children have a regular doctor, most of the time these kids are only seen in the ER when something goes terribly wrong. I have contacted their local DCF and hope that sooner or later someone will check. The area that they live in would be a county that has a VERY overworked DCF.

You are right, he needs his head ripped off or better yet the body part that he tattooed on his son should be not so surgically removed.


Hold up MiLo, DON’T report anything to anyone unless you have actually seen it. They like to make us look CRAZY.
Half of the stuff they say only has a kernal of truth. You don’t want to undermine your credibility by reporting things you “think” have happened. Later when you know something is true, no one will believe you.

It’s no skin off her back to make up a lie and see if you take the bait. At the very least her pay off was to see the look of disgust on your face. So much of what they do is DRIVEN by a need to feed off our facial expressions. Hard to believe but true.


Here in Ok city – a few weeks ago a couple locked their 3 young kids in a camper trailor with a space heater, while they did meth in the house the camper caught fire and burned them to death. They are in jail awaiting trial – the mom is pregnant.


Skylar ~ I know exactly what you are saying and there is at least a 50/50 chance that she made it up. The thing is these people have page after page of criminal charges, so they aren’t above child abuse for sure. I made a phone report, without giving my name, from a cell phone that can not be traced. Hopefully, they will get investigated and it is up to DCF how to handle it.

Yes, my daughter is always looking for my reaction. What really makes her mad is when I don’t react. I am learning more and more how to do just that. I have found, over the years, that what she does tell me is usually just the tip of the iceberg. Or, if she is talking about something there is always a reason. It’s usually what she doesn’t say that peaks my curiosity

I had been 5 years of No Contact with her. It was heaven, then the court ruled she should have visitation with my grandson, so I have no choice. But, during those 5 years I have learned so so much, I am a different person and I think she isn’t quite sure how to “manipulate” me any longer.

Thanks for your kind words and know you are very probably right.


This is a horribly sad and disturbing story. Since reading it, I cannot get it out of my mind. This poor infant never had a chance in life. As bad as it sounds, I think he is better off dead than surving 3rd degree burns over half his body and then living it out with a sociopath for a mother. I hope her other son was removed from her. At least he will have a fighting chance, in spite of having to live with this traumatic memory and the guilt he will probably have once he understands what happened. I can’t imagine the pain and fear this poor baby suffered before he died. May he rest in peace.

There was another recent story of a mother who left her pet ferrets running around loose to chew off 7 fingers from her infant’s hands. She claims she was sleeping and didn’t hear the screams. How can you be so neglectful as to allow this to happen and not hear the baby screaming? Come on! What kind of lawyer could even represent someone like this?

When I lived in the hood, my downstairs neighbor was selling foodstamps for crack and prostituting herself for crack. She had several crack babies and kept pushing them out so she could get government subsidized housing. When I found out about the prostitution, etc. from a reliable source, I called Social Services. Do you know what they said to me??? I pause here because it’s still hard to believe. The woman on the phone said, “Just cause she’s a prostitute doesn’t mean she’s a bad mother.” That was a turning point for me. I realized something was very VERY wrong with the system.

Distressed Grandmother

Milo It is good you you did not leave your name.Skylar is right they do want us to look like we are crazy. Sometimes I even wonder if they are not setting up my grandson to make me look like I am crazy. I know not knowing the facts and the Truth does drive me crazy. You are also right I have had a lot of social workers that have walked the extra mile for my children. I should have been more Clear it is more so the supervisors that make these choice on policy and do the politically correct thing instead of the moral thing. I do not know where you live but I know here that the supervisors actually get bonuses to stay with in budget and with budget cut backs kids really suffer. They have to be in life or death situations to be apprehended. A lot of these kids are like in the article but over looked because they have no proof.Our laws do protect the parents because it saves the government a lot of money and our world is bringing up very unhappy confused children. Most of them all they want is someone to stand up for them and support them mentally and physically and emotionally. Some are natural born monsters but some are trained to be monsters from lack of nurturing.


Stargazer ~ the comment you got about prostitute and bad mother, I know what you mean. I once told the social worker that my daughter drove drunk with my grandson in the car – her response “Did she buckle him in his car seat?” ???? unreal

Distressed Grand ~ Oh yes, if you have been a foster mother for very long I’m sure you have noticed that the supervisors are the ones that could never make it “out in the field” doing the real work.


MiLo, I have never had the experience of being a mom at all, unless you count cats and snakes as kids (which they are to me :)). I have a great deal of respect for anyone who rears children, and especially when those children are not their biological children. I know that parents make mistakes and mistakes can have consequences. I deliberately chose not to have kids because I was afraid I would make too many of those mistakes. But DAMN! Some of these cases of neglect and abuse send chills up my spine. It’s just hard for me even to imagine. I guess it’s good that I can’t. I don’t want to ever have empathy for that type of parent. There is too much tragedy in this world. But it’s good to read about it sometimes, if just to be reminded that the opposite is true, too – there are many truly good people in the world. I feel for these poor children and sometimes feel it’s a blessing for them that they don’t make it. Is that terrible? I know how hard my life has been, and the abuse I suffered isn’t nearly as bad as the poor baby with the 3rd degree burns.

As a “mother” of animals, I could not imagine ever hurting or neglecting one of them. I generally feel I cannot do enough to make their lives better.

Distressed Grandmother

Stargazer there is a lot wrong with the system and the more they try to better it the more political it becomes. I found it easier to raise foster children 30 years ago the I do know. The rule have changed so much now that these children are way to over protected to the point they do not have much of a life. They are happier because they are safe but not ready for the world when they are free of the system. The government are out to keep family’s together good or bad because it is safer for them and a lot less expensive. Because of law suites the gov really try to cover there butts. It is people really that have changed things. Bad parents bad foster patients law suits for fixing kids that should not have had kids. Sometimes there is no perfect solution just like dealing with paths.



It’s a sad situation. I don’t even know what to say any more.


Stargazer ~

I don’t think it is terrible at all that you feel it is a blessing that this poor innocent baby is over his suffering. I am sure that this is not the first bad thing that happened to him.

I certainly count animals as God’s children and it sounds like you are the type of person that makes a wonderful mother to them. Thank you for caring.

I guess all we can do is help, one child at a time.


To me, animals are the most innocent of all beings. They cannot speak for themselves, and they are not really protected under any laws of society – especially reptiles, who are generally feared and hated by most.


Another example of “knows the words but not the tune”? Some insight into the mindset of this “mother”:

“As for Ms. Alexander, the best sense of her came from Judge Molloy’s decision.

“I am fully confident,” the judge wrote, “that if Melissa Alexander sustained third-degree burns to 40 per cent of her own body, she would not have contented herself with some Vaseline and absorbent cotton.”

On Facebook, Ms. Alexander is known as Melly (Bella Melly) Alexander. As she wrote on her wall this week: “I know I am going through the worst time of my life right now but know this I am here to stay and nobody can not take me down.”

Quasi-literate, as such postings often are, it was still less egregious than what she wrote on Dec. 28, 2009: “So I had a very good Christmas this year and now I am entering the new year with a change ” because no matter what I do I always get the worst part of the stick ” and it’s like it’s always my fault. Now I am making this into saying ’NO MORE’.”

Update: Sorry – I posted an incorrect link above: the correct link is here:

This puts me in mind of Steve Becker’s recent article re: lack of remorse being the defining characteristic of sociopathy.


Sorry to chime in late, but as a social worker, we are taught to report EVERYTHING to child protective services…it is not our job to determine whether abuse or neglect happened, but that there is a suspicion that it did. In my state, as a foster or adoptive parent you are a mandated reporter, so you did the right thing Milo. I have reported things that my children have overheard on a school bus…I obviously have no way of substantiating that, but that is my mandate to report. Sadly, in my county, cps brags about their low “conversion rate” , that is, the amount of cases that come in as a complaint, and convert to an open case, they “screen” many complaints out…often those of children of divorce, custody issues and the such…now THAT is a scary brag…some of the most seemingly innocent cps complaints can uncover horrific abuse. I once knew a teacher who begrudgingly called in a complaint on a child in his class who reported her mommy makes her cry because she pulls her hair when she brushes it…that investigation turned up terrible abuse and the parent lost custody ultimately…we on the outside have no way of knowing…I’d rather be chicken little, and call in stuff that is dismissed, than decide “it’s probably nothing” and the child is actually being tortured. There is a myth that children are removed willy-nilly from their home and put into foster care…usually it is only the most severe abuse or neglect cases that warrant removal. In child welfare you do see it all…we just had a 5 month old baby come into care with over 30 broken bones, including a fractured skull, her ribs looked like confetti according to ER docs. yet while in foster care that mother still visits her baby weekly (supervised) while we all smile and are nice to her. The baby won’t look the mother in the eye. That is telling. Baby actively engages with everyone else. (this isn’t a “brittle bone” case by the way)…sometimes it is just a hard life!


Omg, just read this ! How horrifying! I don’t think the woman knew how bad those burns were and how deadly they can be. My husband worked in a kitchen once, and he spilt hot gravy onto his arm by accident. He had to go to the hospital and they were only 2nd degree, but they still had to wrap them, ( blistered ) and give him a Rx for an antibiotic if it became infected. Infection sets in quickly they told him. I never knew that about 2nd or 3rd degree burns. But to leave the baby ? To not seek some medical advice? To leave the baby alone with a three year old????? She ought to be in jail on that alone!!!! and the baby, I can’t imagine. It makes me wonder how many other people have done things like this, but don’t get caught. My God, what is happening to society? Are people truly becoming more and more sociopath as the psychologists are saying?

Ox Drover

Annie, Thanks for that link, it is a PERFECT EXAMPLE, you are so right.

Alwayshope, welcome. I’m a retired Advanced Practice Nurse and have reported and reported, even children that were so obviously abused, and ones who were not quite so obviously, but “pretty suspicious” and because of doctors who won’t cooperate and DAs who let things slide, people who need to be in PRISON walk free. I realize that the case loads are over loaded on social workers etc. and that foster homes are never enough….etc. but it still breaks my heart! It is very frustrating to me to KNOW and not be able to get the perps put away or the child protected. GRRRRR (that’s me grinding my teeth!)


Hello ladies……I haven’t been on here in a while, but all these grandparent stories are really hitting home with with you all, my crazy daughters are still at it ….the bio sp is working with Hospice now and I’m sure she is stealing drugs from poor dying patients. She is an RN and has gotten fired from so many jobs in the last couple of years for drug abuse that I cannot believe she even found anyone that would hire her and the fact that she still has a liscence blows my mind!! How can they continue to do what they do? She has destroyed her four kids’s lives…..I’m not sure who said it on here, but they do seem to be so good at having babies and so bad at raising them….I too am stuck in a very bad place, because I know I need to report her, but she has connections everywhere and if she found out I did it…..I truely believe she would “Casey Anthony” me…..she knows how much I love those kids and that that would be perfect revenge against me….I try not to have much contact with her, and like Oxy and Gemini girl, I too have learned how to not waste hope on the likes of her…in a way that is a relief ….once you accept that. Any residual love is thoughts of her as a baby and how much I loved her and wanted her. Like Oxy’s son my bio sp seemed so normal as a young child….she was more stubborn than most and never slept much, but when puberty hit so did the demon girl. She became something I could not recognize, or control. She had no concept of a rule…just didn’t “get it”….still doesn’t. Get in her way and she will crucify you. Sometimes I hear her on the phone talking to a patient and she has this voice that she turns on that I do not even recognize. It is chilling. They usually are brilliant at thinking on their feet (at least mine are). I try to stay out of her way and not draw attention to myself (never wear red around one). I do try to be as involved with the children as I can, but it is very hard. She too has left them alone when they were very small, had several DFACS cases against her, they get themselves up in the morning, they dress themselves, I doubt they ever brush their teeth at home, and none of them even sleep in a bed. They camp out on the floor. She has had her lights, cable, etc. cut off for non payment and then she will turn around and buy all these little kids expensive cell phones ! She has had at least 10 cars re possessed and still manages to get loans for new ones…the house she is renting was a brand new house 3 years ago and now it is destroyed… husband and I live in a different town and I try to see about them a couple times a month. They have a 17 year old brother that does take pretty good care of them when he is home….God bless him….he text me just today to tell me that his mother is out of her mind and needs to be in a mental institution….God help them all….before anyone wonders why I don’t take them… will know one day if you have sp in your family……they gut you…they wear you down…..I am 55 and I feel and look like I am 65. I raised her son when he was young and just don’t have anything left. I have not slept a whole night in almost 20 years. If I did not have my trazadone and other anti depressants I would lock myself in a dark room and just wait it out…I freak when I hear my phone ring thinking something terrible has happened and knowing I will die of guilt if it does and yet feel paralyized to take any action. She is smarter than me, younger than me, and everyone always believes the sp……don’t they???


No, creampuff, we believe YOU.
It sounds like hell. You are at least lucky you don’t live closer.
Taking good care of yourself is the best thing you can do for everyone, including those kids. They will understand eventually


Creampuff, TB Oxy, and in fact all of you,
Today is my spath daughter C’s. 45th Birthday. Actually, its 5 .15 pm, here in Sydney, and Ive only just remembered!
Like Oxys boy who is now in jail, she was an enchanting child, bright, witty, smart as anything, but with a will of iron, a Miss bossy boots,couldnt punisn her,{actually I almost NEVEr use to smack the kids,but if I did, she used to chant,”That never hurt that never hurt!” and if you sent her to her room shed say.”I wanted to go anyway, theres a book I want to read”, or if you said,”No pudding till youve finished some veggies,shed say, “dont want pudding anyway!”
She is living with a rich Jewish boy, whose Mother basically pays for everything, the 4 million home in a very exclusive upscale area, Tamarama, {next to Bondi,}, the school fees at the very exclusive Jewish school, the 2 cars, {one for the liv e in Nanny, the Nanny, the boy’s Bar Mitzvah 2 years ago. The kids are now 15, 12, and the little boy will be 3 in June. Ive never ever been allowed to see any of her kids., despite desperate pleas from me by letter, Ive sent gifts, flowers,never any response,{but she kept all the gifts, chocs, and flowers!]I havent bothered to even send a Birthday card for several years Whats the point?
She has turned into a hard, snobby, superior little madam,
money is her god. David and I have been “nothinged”. Not rich enough for her. Well, F–k her.She is a 100% gold plated bitch.Sh e gave the Jewish G parents what they wanted, two Jewish male Gkids!!
I cant stand her, but I have to admit shes done SPECTACULARLY better than her older sister who at almost 47 is about to be evicted from her room in a shared flat.{condo} as she cant get enough work to pay her rent.NMP any more!{Not my problem!}Her ex was telling me on the phone shes only given him around $400– in 4 months, so he has to pay for everything.”Gem, she just doesnt care, its all about her! I pointed out that if I get evicted the 3 kids will have to go into care, she could care less.”
In a way hes almost as feckless as she is, he is owing $50,000 in C.Card debt, hes only been paying the interest for 4 years!
Maybe she can go live with her rich sister, but I very much doubt shed have her, and really I dont blame her. Shes done it all to herself. Reckless spending, a “live now, pay later” lifestyle, that is now coming back to bite her on the bum. Compound interest is a beautiful thing if you have lots of cash, but is a horror if you are in debt. And what about compound Karma? Also a beautiful thing!
I dont have to worry about revenge on the spaths, just have to sit back, enjoy the show, and let karma take its inevitable toll! I shock myself at how I now feel over my once beloved girls. But they are girls no longer. The are horrible people, and if I wasnt related to them, Id need people in my life like this,WHY???
Doesnt matter if you were pushe d out of a spaths body, or you pushed a spath out of Y0UR body, a spath is a spath!!
And if there is ONE thing I have learned here on LF, the F—rs NEVER ever change.!
I have to remember,
And Towanda to us all were no longer victims but survivors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mama gem.XX


Towanda (((MamaGem!)))
you are sooooo getting there!


Thanks Sky! I think so too!
Never ever imagined Id end up feeling so totally indifferent to these apologies for real people.
Mama gemXX


Actually all I feel for them now is disgust, repulsion, and
Cant feel any love at all.
Mama GemX
believe it or not, when I was being gaslighted, I used to FEAR them.


those are the RIGHT feelings for them. You are sooo so getting it. I remember how you used to be so sad. I didn’t know what to think about you or what to say, because I’ve never had children of my own. My biggest regret is my evil siblings and my N-parents. We are going to get there together. It’s the last war. It’s the final war. Stay strong.
don’t waste contempt, it’s too strong. revulsion, repulsion and disgust is good enough. Think about what it’s like to step on a pile of shit. do you feel contempt? no, it’s just shit. It’s disgusting is all. Wash it off.



Thanks Sky! I so wish YOU’D been my daughter! Maybe I can adopt you online?!
Love, and Hugs,
Mama gemXX
Ps Contempt is GOOD for me, as it really REALlY stops me getting sucked back in to false “love” feelings for them. or feelings of its my “duty” to love them.
They are both contemptable shits.
REAL shit is good and useful ie, I can fertilise my plants with it.They are more worthless than shit.


hi gem, hmmmm, does this mean i should stop calling the spath ‘a lying sack of crap eivl *c*, given that she is utterly useless? possibly so. 🙂

good to see you doing so well gem. you must feel like a weight has lifted off you.


Thanks so much, One Joy, yes, I kind of veer between contempt, sadness and indifference.
Mainly sadness for the waste of it all.
How are you doing? Well, I hope!
Love, and Hugs,

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