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Hi everyone. Nothing about this will make sense unless you know a few things about me. I’m 21 years old. My father is a psychopath, my brother is a narcissist, and my mother is neurotypical (normal).
Me? Well…I was diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome as a kid, and suspected of Schizotypal Personality Disorder after an unfortunate incident I might go into later (I just joined and I’m not sure how judgmental or accepting people here are). But my father got me out of being actually diagnosed with that last one by teaching me how to tell the psychiatrist what he wanted to hear, and how to say it believably.
So…if nobody’s going to kick me off of the site for not being strictly neurotypical, I’ll continue. 🙂 And if you are not familiar with what those conditions entail and don’t have the time to find the Wikipedia pages, I’ll just tell you right now that neither is an exploitative personality disorder. I’m really very nice, I promise! 🙂
I probably have a pretty unique perception of these things, having dealt with the consequences of my father and brother’s disorders AND having what most people consider “issues” myself. A lot of the reason why I’m here is to process and work through things relating to my father and brother and my childhood.
But this post is not about that. Before I joined, I read some of the articles on this site. A few things troubled me.
One is the classifying of people with Borderline Personality Disorder as in the same boat as someone diagnosed with narcissism or psychopathy. I admit, my knowledge on the subject is limited because I don’t actually know anybody with BPD personally. But from what I’ve read people with BPD actually have more intense emotions than most people (not less as with narcs/psychopaths), an insecure and unstable self image (not an ego the size of a skyscraper), and can and do feel guilt and remorse. That’s not to say what many do to others is not destructive, but I don’t think it’s right to demonize all of (though like with every sect of humanity, there are doubtlessly some really bad ones) these people. (I don’t particularly think it’s right or useful to demonize anyone, but that’s another topic for another post.)
The other thing that bothered me did so for a much more personal reason. It said:
“According to Dr. Leedom, people with the ability to love do ALL of the following in relationships:
Feel and enjoy affection toward special people.
Show empathy toward those they love.
Want to take care of those they love.
At times sacrifice their own desires in order to care for others.”Uh…I do either 2/4 or 3/4, depending on if “feel and enjoy affection” means physical affection or not. Physical affection makes my skin crawl. It’s an exercise in frustration and self-control to even hug someone. And if empathy is defined thusly: “an empathetic person actually feels another person’s pain,”…then I don’t have it. I can understand that someone’s in pain and imagine it if it is explained to me or it has been before, but it’s an intellectual thing, not emotional.
I’ve always considered myself able to love. So I’m not sure if the problem is with this too-narrow definition of what love is or with me, or both.
So thank you for reading, and I look forward to hearing what anybody has to say.
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Junebug,
When you grow up with narcissists and sociopaths (voice of experience here), you develop PTSD. PTSD can mimic BPD because many of the symptoms are the same. I was diagnosed with BPD some 30 years or so ago, and I believed it. I certainly had all the symptoms. However, I have always considered myself as able to give and receive love albeit with many issues. Many of the borderline issues I suffered with I was able to manage and even to heal, to where I can live a relatively authentic and meaningful life – at least as I experience it. I don’t know what it’s like to be other than what I am. I am also in my late 50’s now, so I’ve had a lifetime to face down some of these demons. In my later years, I had therapists tell me they didn’t think I was borderline, but that I had a bad case of PTSD. Nowadays it really doesn’t matter to me what the label is. Labels can be self-limiting if you get too focused on your pathology, as I did for so many years. I do my best to love and accept myself and all my limitations, even if they don’t look like others’ limitations. I don’t label myself anymore. I meditate often on letting more love into my life. And I’ve had to go through a lot of pain to get to where I can do that. I seek to know myself and to accept myself now, to enjoy life, and to live a life with meaning.
The world is always out there waiting to tell you you’re selfish if you don’t show love in the way others do, or if you make a choice to take care of yourself over someone who needs you. It takes a lifetime to learn not to take on what the world – and the western mental health system – tells us we should be. Love as much as you can and then forgive and accept yourself for wherever you are.
It is my understanding of the schizoid personality that there is a disconnect between head/mind and body. In my younger years, I experienced some of this. I dissociated a lot and still do sometimes though it’s getting less. For this personality tendency, there are some types of meditation that can help ground a person in their body and help them feel their emotions. My journey to healing started on such a 10-day meditation retreat.
I don’t know much about Asperger’s though I’ve known a few friends who are somewhere on the autism spectrum. I do not experience them as uncaring. Their minds seem to be wired a little more creatively, and they sometimes lack the ability to process social cues. But amazing people.
I’m not sure if any of this is helpful to you or answers any of your questions, but this is where my mind went reading your post. 🙂
Star
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Junebug – Welcome to Lovefraud. We’ve had readers before who said they were on the Asperger’s spectrum and had to deal with psychopaths. It was really interesting, because they were able to identify the predators very quickly. In fact, one person said she could smell them.
I will echo Stargazer in that growing up with disordered parents and family members affects you. Quite honestly, most therapists do not understand the effects, especially if there is no physical abuse or crime involved. They don’t get the depth of the effects on a child and young adult. So I wouldn’t be surprised if you have been misdiagnosed.
About your concern – antisocial, narcissistic, borderline and histrionic personality disorders are grouped together as “Cluster B” personality disorders. They are considered “externalizing” disorders. this means that when people have the disorders, they tend to take it out on the people around them, rather than on themselves.
Borderline personality disorder is absolutely different from antisocial and narcissistic personality disorders in origin. In women, it is often associated with sexual abuse. In men, it is associated with being shamed, especially by the father. People with this disorder also tend to have high levels of anxiety, which narcissists and antisocials typically do not have.
So why do we talk about borderlines along with narcissists and antisocials? Because people with all three disorders tend to be exploiters. The cause of the exploitation is different, but the result to other people is the same — deception, manipulation and abuse.
The problem with terminology in the mental health field is that there is no official term for people who have personality disorders that makes them exploiters. This becomes very difficult from a communications perspective if you need three paragraphs just to explain who you’re talking about. So Lovefraud is using the word “sociopath,” which is no longer a clinical diagnosis, as a collective, categorical term for people who have these exploitative disorders.
I hope this answers your question.
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Junebug, thanks for clarifying the difference between schizoid personality and schizotypal disorder. I had not heard this second one, even though I studied psychology for many years. Your explanation was very clear, and I appreciate your sharing the details. I do believe it’s difficult to know what is an actual disorder, what is PTSD. Your symptoms can also be the result of growing up with disordered parents and the protective defense mechanisms you developed. For instance, I, too, learned to lie to protect myself from an abusive stepfather. But I really don’t know, just as I don’t really know if I was/am a true borderline.
In retrospect, I think the label did me a great disservice. If it could have been couched in a more positive or hopeful way, it would have been more helpful. As trust is an issue for borderlines, a therapist wouldn’t have necessarily helped me. Perhaps I was not true BPD. I don’t recall if I ever had the intention to exploit anyone as a goal, but I’m sure I was manipulative and controlling in my relationships. When I started becoming aware of these tendencies, the revelation was quite painful. And it was difficult to let go of the control and face the underlying causes – my deep insecurities.
I really like what you said: “If one wasn’t trying to put everything in the worst light possible, that would be called “creative thinker who is willing to think outside the box (and sometimes overthinks things)” And it’s mind-boggling to me that anyone would resist their own thoughts or ideas.” There is a woman (can’t think of her name) who spoke on CO public radio a few months ago about a new way of thinking about mental illness – that each condition – borderline, OCD, etc. – gives the person unique gifts. I will try to find the article and post it as time permits. She feels we can get too focused on the pathology and it tends to stigmatize us, which is not helpful. I totally agree with her. Those of us who are non-exploitive can obsess over the labels and how we are disordered. I don’t think that is very helpful or necessary except insomuch as it can increase our awareness of ourselves. We really need an overhaul in the mental health system. In many cases, the symptoms of trauma survivors are a sane response to an insane situation. And we need only retrain our minds that we are no longer in that insane situation.
I am warmed by your kind comments. I hope you will find acceptance, camaraderie, and helpful information here to further you on your own path. 🙂
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Junebug, I was about to practice my guitar and get ready for work, but I found your post so interesting. I wanted to take the time to respond before I get busy with my work week.
No, I will never really know if I was/am disordered. However, I stopped splitting hairs about it many years ago. If you met me, you would never know I ever had this diagnosis. I’m happy, relatable, and pretty stable these days. I look closely at my thoughts, feelings, and behaviors, and I’ve learned to be very honest with myself but not self-critical. Looking at the darkest parts of my personality helped me to accept them and even transform them. It’s an ongoing process – I think this is true for anyone who is on a path of healing/recovery/spiritual growth. I use those words interchangeably, because in my world, you cannot have one without the others. I’m also creative, deeply emotional, and highly compassionate. One of the reasons I come here is to give back what was given to me so many years ago here. I truly enjoy being a part of others’ journeys to wellness. If recall some of my struggles in the early days of recovery. I was pretty much a mess. I was a textbook borderline. I never mentioned the diagnosis with many people, but I still felt stigmatized by it. It ate away at me that all the textbooks said it would take years and years to heal. I wanted to feel better instantly. Turns out it did take years and years, but along the way I found out that I’m a pretty cool person – not in spite of it, but because of it.
I understand what you mean about online anonymity. It wasn’t around in my day when I was going through so much depression. A site like this would have helped tremendously. While I can’t say I’m still mistrustful, I am usually reserved around people in person until I get to know them well. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. But I’m friendly and outgoing, but very careful about whom I spend my time with.
I actually agree with you that there is always hope for any condition. I was very interested in psychology and studied it up to the graduate level. In my studies, I ran across a book called Bioenergetics by Alexander Lowen. I still have the book. It’s an interesting study of the various disorders (including sociopathy) from an energetic perspective – where they are blocked physically and what exercises would release the blocks. That book gave me a different perspective on the healing process. Though I do believe sociopathy is “potentially” treatable, I have never met nor heard of a sociopath who had the slightest desire to change or who ever changed. So there’s that. I do think some of them mellow out later in life. Also, sociopathic types can fall on a spectrum, with some having a tiny ability to introspect and therefore change.
I save the most personal comments for last. I think the things your father did are very heinous. The story about the chickens made my guts churn. I’m so sorry you had to live with this. My stepfather was pretty sociopathic, too, so I can somewhat relate to your stories of your father. Fortunately, he didn’t come into my life till I was 7 or 8, so I wasn’t as traumatized by him as I could have been. Given your experiences, it would make a lot of sense that you learned to lie to protect yourself and probably found other coping mechanisms. I do think some sociopaths can mellow out in their later years. My stepfather definitely did.
If you are interested in reading about BPD, a good book is The Buddha and the Borderline. I loved her story, though mine was a little different. I discovered meditation earlier in my life rather than later, and it probably saved me from a life of self-destruction.
I appreciate reading about you and your story, Junebug. Thank you so much for sharing.
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I have heard of James Fallon, but not the other guy. I do believe that sociopaths can change but their motives might not be the same as an empath’s motives, namely, to avoid harming others. A sociopath can learn how to behave within the acceptable social parameters if they have something to gain by it. But it’s not the same as having a moral compass or caring about others. Again, I also believe there is a spectrum and all people are different. If is not for any of us to judge your relationship with your father. I suspect that no matter what your father is or was, you will always love him. If it turns out you are repressing any anger toward him, I suspect it will come out some day when the time is right. There is a writer on this site – Travis Vining – who writes about his sociopathic father who is in prison. I enjoy his readings very much. He is one who’s taught me that people are complex.
My stepfather died about 27 years ago, to answer your question. We were actually close before he died. Our relationship, like yours with your own father, was very complex. I still miss him, and I still dream about him.
To answer your question about my emotions, no, it is not too personal. I appreciate the question because it gives me an opportunity to be precise in my communication. The exact emotional trait that is characteristic of a borderline is that they are very sensitive to abandonment, probably hundreds of times more than the average person. An example is that if a borderline is in a therapy session, and the therapist looks at her watch, the borderline may get up and walk out of the room. They will feel enraged but may be too overwhelmed to deal with it. It is really the rage toward the narcissistic parent who abandoned us in the first place. Once the rage comes out, there is grief. This can get triggered over and over until the person is able to process enough of the rage and grief to where they can find peace. This has happened for me over the years, but those early years were brutal, and I never thought I’d get better! I still get triggered by people I get close to, and by little things, too, but I have the awareness to know I’m being triggered, so I don’t dump my rage or hurt onto the other person. An example is if I call a friend a few times and she is busy or doesn’t call me back that week. When I get triggered, I usually just try to feel it and release it. But because I also disassociate, it can take a while to process strong feelings. But now I know when I’m triggered, and I know when I dissociate. I don’t believe normal people have this intensity of pain inside of them, and I don’t believe they dissociate. This is a unique outcome of being raised by narcissistic parents. For a young borderline who is in intense pain, they may not be able to handle the intensity of the pain. They go into crisis if they get close to someone, and do self destructive (and other-destructive) things. The key to my recovery has been to get the rage and grief out without destroying myself or anyone else in the process. I’ve had a few boyfriends who were strong enough to let me work some of it out with them. And some boyfriends who probably think I’m the devil. I don’t know if the abandonment pain will ever be completely gone, but it is much more manageable and doesn’t overwhelm my life. I’m capable of caring about others. I know when I’m triggered, and I know when I’m dissociating. I do believe that awareness is what brings us into a higher state of consciousness and is the key to recovery. I also laugh a lot and experience a lot of joy. But the feelings are never very far from the surface. I hope that answers your questions!
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I wanted to add that the more layers of repressed feeling I go through, the more loving and caring I become. I find myself looking for ways to give back to my various communities. I teach English as a Second Language, I teach salsa classes for no charge to my community, I offer support to my closer friends, and I come here to help where I can, because this is one of my communities, too. I don’t think I had the capacity to do these things when I was younger, though I’ve always known I was meant to be some sort of healer.
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