Will he pay me back?

If your ex is a true narcissist or sociopath then no he will not pay you back. People with those personality disorders do not care about contracts or your legal rights or morality. They act only in their own self interest regardless of your rights. They simply do not care about your rights.

You should definitely consult with a lawyer for advice on how to proceed. Do this in secret and do not tell him or anyone who talks to him that you are consulting a lawyer.

snownfire – do you have a document in which he has promised to pay you back? If not, be sure to get one before you go NC.

You must have, in writing, his promise to pay you back or you will not be able to collect anything.

In any event – it is good that you are getting out of this before you are married. Much more complicated after marriage.

I am wondering the same thing… as mine stole a ton of money and stuff from me. It was only a few months, but he left me with nothing. I have a law degree, but am not a practicing lawyer. I’m wondering if I should just rep myself and pursue him civilly for all the harm he caused me.

Hi Betty yes I think you should pursue it.

My ex stole a lot of money and a business from me in our divorce and embezzled money as well. I did not pursue it at the time because I was still too weak and loyal and afraid and trauma bonded.

Now many years later my biggest regret in life is that I did not take him to court and expose him and pursue the money he stole. Even if I had not been able to recover anything, just fighting for it would have helped my self esteem.

@bettylou Even though you’re not practicing, you could probably take a class from Bill Eddy’s High Conflict Institute or go get one of his books from Amazon to bone up on strategies to defeat the sociopath in court https://www.highconflictinstitute.com
I believe if you contact them, they can also find you an attorney in your area who has trained with them to represent you if you choose to hire someone to help you.

@snownfire Congratulations on getting away from your sociopath before getting married, that’s a huge accomplishment in itself.
As far as getting paid back, that’s more difficult if he didn’t sign any contracts for wedding goods & services or other expenses that were either his alone or shared ones if for example you lived together.
A smart thing to do is to interview several of the best attorneys in your area ASAP to disqualify them from representing the ex in court. Sociopaths are sneaky, you never know when they’ll sue you (power or control or just because they can) but even if you don’t take him to court, if he turns around & tries to sue you, he won’t be able to if you consulted with the best attorneys first on the same matter.

Hi snownfire – what I am tuning into, is your pain of waiting for a check that he said he would be sending. It just is symbolic of the whole ordeal you have gone through – of his promising you something ( your marriage ) and then not coming through. So you have 2 issues to deal with – the emotional aspect of the whole trauma, and then the issue of the actual finances. I once got conned out of a lot of money, and it helped me to do everything I could legally to stand up for my rights. I felt an amazing satisfaction when the judge hit her gavel in my favor – ( even though I have not been able to collect any money – which is a different story.). So fighting legally, if possible, may be a help for you psychologically. Even efforts to get all the info you can and speaking to lawyers, As the other participants advised. On the other hand, save yourself grief by not waiting for a check that will never come because that is exactly what you have been dealing with all along. But as has been mentioned, count your lucky stars that you did not marry him !
Blessings

Hi snownfire –
Yes, it is best to decide what actions you feel are in your highest interest. There is not a formula that is right for everyone. But, it was good that you posted because you were able to write out your concerns and what you are going through. That in itself is very therapeutic, plus here on Love Fraud, you also get feedback from others who have gone through what you have – not in all the particulars, but on a deep feeling level, where we are all healing and finding our core of love and inner strength. Plus I am glad you have a counselor for support. Keep up all the positive steps you are doing for your highest well being and post whenever you feel like you’d like to connect. We are actually a community healing together.
Blessings

Hi again Snow I do think you should pursue your legal rights but I expect your counselor to advise you to let it go and focus on recovery.

Actually just made another thread about this topic. I feel like counselors and all the literature focus too much on recovery. I think it’s more important to pursue your legal rights first and that can help with emotional recovery as well.

I feel like counselors and literature etc inadvertently enable sociopaths/abusers/criminals etc by telling victims to focus on emotional recovery instead of making legal pursuit of justice the first priority. That essentially reinforces the lack of power of victims.

But as Donna pointed out it does depend on the victim’s strength and resources and the circumstances of the case.

Snow yes I wrote about that in my other thread as well.

I think the typical pattern is:

1) sociopath targets victim and obtains emotional control over victim and then psychologically and financially abuses victim

2) relationship ends and sociopath moonwalks away while victim is left completely confused and trauma bonded and emotionally devastated

3) victim turns to counselors and self help reading and friends and family for support and everyone is focused on supporting the victim emotionally and breaking the trauma bond and emotional recovery

4) financial abuse is not really discussed or victim is encouraged to let the financial aspect go and focus on emotional recovery instead

5) no consequences at all for the sociopath who is free to continue his reign of terror over new victims and is never held accountable. Rinse and repeat.

In cases of physical abuse I think it’s actually easier to obtain accountability because it is more likely for police to get involved and for friends and family and literature etc to encourage the victim to come forward to law enforcement.

But in cases of “only” emotional abuse and financial abuse it is much harder to obtain accountability. Because there is generally not really any recourse for emotional abuse in court. There is only recourse for financial abuse (theft and failure to repay loans and dissipation of assets etc) but victims are not encouraged to seek recourse for financial abuse and are directed to emotional recovery instead.

Hi snownfire – I was thinking about your considering the issue of your ex paying you back – you were wondering if your ex has the money but just isn’t paying you back ( financial abuse ) or if he doesn’t have the money and just said he would pay you back knowing full well that he could not and would not be paying you back ( gas lighting and emotional abuse ). Either way, it is totally abusive and puts you in the position of being strung along, waiting and wondering and confused about him. I am ( as you can see ) addressing the psychological aspect of the situation. It is all a whole ball of disordered sickness from your ex – so my advise is to be a wiley fox and not step into that pile of you know what ( the check scenario ). But I do understand the sadness and upset you will need to process and heal from due to the enormous disappointment about your marriage. After all, we as females have had marriage as the ultimate happiness instilled in us from a very early age with all the fairy tales of the princess marrying the prince and “ living happily ever after “. Reality of course always sets in and we face life and all the challenges. And all of it is about emotional maturity, but it was so hurtful that your marriage was taken by such cruelty. I think you should work hard at protecting your inner child princess, and realize that you will meet someone who is just right for you, and you will have your beautiful marriage.
Blessings

This is a response to sept4’s post and also for snownfire –
I liked very much what you pointed out about those steps of the sociopath’s playlist strategy. Very right on. I also wanted to commend you about what you responded to Donna in your post stream about refusing to give any more of your time to grieving. You are ready now to move on and that is fantastic. I wanted to share something that I went through that I remembered from your discussions about having not fought your ex legally. We all in your post stream discussed the pros and cons and your abilities to have been able to do so or not to have been able to do so, and the kind of support that was there and/or not there at the time. All of that is a process and you really nailed it by considering it all and now having made the decision to really move on which you are ready to do. But back to my sharing story : I got married very young and had a little girl. I, myself was quite a child anyway, but stayed in the marriage longer than I should have because of my child ( for all those reasons we are all aware of ). Finally, for a variety of reasons – the divorce could not be put off any longer and I needed to go through with it. I had been a stay at home mom and had no work skills in the world, and asked my parents to help me with the legal fees. They were very able to do so because they were very wealthy. However, they were friends with my husband’s family who all were members of the same country club etc. also they were not my biological parents ( they were my great aunt and uncle who took on the role of my parents when I was seven, but that is a different story ). In any case, they agreed to help me, but when it came time to really go after my ex in regards to finances ( legally we could have kind of let him off the hook or gone after him hard ), my dad talked to the lawyer and me and said to just kind of let it go, because he would give me any needed financial support. So we basically let my ex off the hook. I think my dad was more concerned with having harmony between himself and my husband’s parents than really considering what was best for me, because after the divorce, he became very miserly with money, and I ended up struggling so much financially to take care of my daughter and to make my way through school to be able to gain the ability to provide for us in the world. I am relating this story to highlight the importance of having one’s legal, financial rights met, and not get bamboozled into an emotional relationship mode when it takes away one’s real rights. On the other hand what was done was done and I have let the whole thing go ( even before my father passed away ). I have spent years reaching out for the beautiful in body, mind and spirit and I refuse to allow other’s to make me bitter or to keep me in a prison of the past. I started out as a child being so sweet and kind and gentle, and that is precious to me and I intend to keep that inner beauty. And I know that you both feel just the same. We can all do it.
Blessings

Thank you so much Polestar for your beautiful post and I’m sorry that happened to you.

Isn’t it interesting that everyone advises victims to just let it go and move on and not pursue her legal and financial rights? I wonder if this is specific to women. Maybe it is something old fashioned in society still remaining to tell women to not worry about their legal and financial rights.

It just really struck me recently how unanimous this advice was from counselors and self help reading and friends and family. And I think it happens to other women too. Women are told to just let it go and focus on themselves. And while it is well meant advice that actually enables the abusers and further victimizes the women.

Hi snownfire – thank you so so much for sharing your story. Our stories help others so much, because when we see and understand that it is not just something unique to us that is happening – that it is an actual phenomenon, an actual pattern of behavior, that we begin to feel validated, supported and not so alone. Sociopaths are definitely mentally ill, and when we aren’t aware that this condition exists, then we try and try to cope – somehow believing that there is some rationality to their behavior and thus we respond. On the other hand, if we were a doctor in a psych ward, and a patient acted strange, the doctor would understand that strange behavior stems from their disorder. We, out in the world, fail to see the truth of the matter of the sick individual we are dealing with. So, therefore, as in the beginning of your story, when you and your ex were both involved with the same program, and he suddenly started to avoid you, and you and your friends discussed his sudden strange behavior, you all saw it through a light of believing that he was normal, and went on to attribute a normal reason for his behavior. We all do that, because we are normal, and have not learned about sociopaths and that whole character disordered spectrum, and we had nowhere in our cognition to place things that were no where near where our hearts and minds dwell. I think that there is a whole spectrum of character disordered people, and from your story, you ex seems way way over to the very sick end. The sister was horrible too. It does run in the family, science has started to find out. Having said all of that, still, nevertheless, we can’t just write off his horrendous behavior with a shrug and an “ oh well “ and “ oh, he’s a sociopath “ and be done with it. He did ruthless and horrible things that were sickening. Like putting you at risk for COVID, when he knew he was positive and lying about that. Like not getting you a Christmas gift. From the outside, it may seem like a small thing, but from the inside of a relationship, it is huge in that it is basically saying : “ I just don’t care about you or your feelings “. I can see how you would have trusted him from the start though – having known his family when growing up. That kind of connection from our early years, is like our roots, and we basically feel very safe and at home with family friends – even when, like you mentioned, there was a separation in between getting reconnected. Added to this is the fact that you both had the same religious upbringing ( essentially, it seems ). So with all of that, it is no wonder that you would go into a relationship with him, with an enormous amount of trust, evidence to the contrary not withstanding. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, we have a natural bias towards seeing others as normal. Then with the whole marriage proposal, bringing even more commitment in your heart and for loyalty to him and for the relationship and so much hope that he instilled. I think he knew exactly what he was doing in all of his manipulations of your emotions. Plus, you were not well considering the Lymes disease. You were physically exhausted from that, and that kind of fatigue leaves a person very vulnerable in many ways. So it is more than understandable that you kept on trying to maintain a loving relationship to one who was actively unkind ( cruel is actually a more accurate word ). Another thing that I want to mention is that when it comes to love in an intimate relationship, somehow we are not able to keep our reason and understanding clear. Scientists have gone forward with so many innovations in medicine and space etc. but when it comes to the working dynamics of a relationship, all seems to be black. Only very very recently has the whole subject of narcissism and sociopathy even come to light. But there is so much more too. I like Mira Kirshenbaum’s book, “ Too bad to stay, too good to leave “ for that exact reason. In that book she actually sheds light on very nuanced elements of relationships that we generally have only subconscious knowledge of. She brings so much to awareness. In any case, I understand how very hurt you are feeling now, even with the knowledge of you ex’s horrific character disorder. It all was a horrible disappointment and a horrible loss of a beautiful ideal and a dream of a happy marriage, wishing to share your life with someone who at first seemed to be such a perfect match. There are stages of grief that are well documented, which I’m sure you can find easily on line, and just by recognizing what stage you are going through would be a big help for you. Please keep posting ( if you wish to ) so we can assist you with your healing. Thanks again for sharing your story. I sincerely mean it when I said that it does so much good for many. I have a wish that we can come together to support and bring love and light to one another – enough to offset those who deprecate the beautiful.
Blessings

Snowfire – It will certainly be difficult being in the same home as your narcissistic father, and seeing what your mother is enduring. I’ve spoken to many people who became involved with sociopaths, only to realize that they married their disordered parent. So your early family dynamic is probably what made you vulnerable to the sociopath.

Therefore you need to get out as soon as you can, and I’m sure you are working towards this. In the meantime, do your best to emotionally disengage from the drama. Find a way to get centered. Maybe your example will help your mother.

Hi Snow yes I think you should move out as soon as you can. Make moving out your first priority.

You cannot have a good relationship with a disordered person. You cannot have a happy healthy safe peaceful wholesome life living with a disordered person.

Hi Snow, what really helped me in that aspect was focusing on myself and taking care of myself. Eating well, working out, counseling, hobbies, activities that I enjoy, spending time with healthy loved ones.

And I’ve kept my circle very small. I’m very selective about who I spend time with. Only people whom I’ve known a long time and who I know are genuine and trustworthy and genuinely love me and care about me.

Hi Snow, yes I am very very selective about my friendships. I only maintain two deep friendships – two friends whom I’ve know for almost 25 years and who have shown me long term that they are genuinely good stable caring people who genuinely love me.

Everyone else I keep at acquaintance level only and I don’t invest in those other relationships. I’m polite and friendly to acquaintances but I don’t get close to them or invest time and energy in them.

I actually made a notepad list of my “inner circle” of people who I genuinely love and trust and invest in. Total is only five people, my two long time friends and the three family members that I’m closest to.

So I don’t have a lot of people in my inner circle BUT they are very high quality and have shown me over the long term that they are good people who truly love me. That is worth much more to me than a large circle of questionable people.

Snowfire I just read your posts and hope you are doing ok