I can never forgive some people

[Synergy]

Dear Donna and friends at LoveFraud, I’d like to know if anyone else “can’t forgive.” I keep hearing how important forgiveness is. The claims I hear in various places and from friends and from at least two family members are that forgiveness is so important — if one is able to forgive, one’s anger will go away. I called a friend today about my issue of not ever being able to, nor wanting to, forgive certain people. We discussed “what forgiveness is.” He thought it meant letting go of one’s anger. I told him that’s backwards from what people tell me forgiveness is, or is for. So I looked up the definition of forgiveness in several online dictionaries. There were various synonyms, many of which I do not know what they mean, but words like “pardon,” excuse,” and “mercy” are given as part of the lists of synonyms. I will never, not ever pardon, excuse, nor wish mercy on these two husbands who tricked and deceived me, and treated me terribly. One for 9 years, the other for 11. In these marriages, I forgave, forgave, forgave. I thought once we had come up with a better “plan” and promises to make our marriage work, we’d be happy and his abuse would stop. But as I — and the rest of you here at the forum — now know, this never happens. They choose and deliberately abuse in ways to humiliate us and put us down. And swindle us. I also cannot forgive certain politicians, and brutal dictators and pathological genocidal rulers, etc. In fact, not only do I not forgive them, and besides being very angry at them — for some, I passionately hate them. Do you feel like that? Or have some of you “forgiven” your sociopath? If you did forgive, how did you do it, and what does it really mean to you, to forgive?

[Madelaine]

I think the concept of forgiveness is over-rated for a number of reasons. The first is religious, specifically Christian. On the cross, Jesus asked God to forgive people who persecuted him. I don’t think Jesus actually said, “I forgive you”. (Apologies if this is biblically incorrect”¦. I haven’t kept up with my theology). People have filled in the blanks in this biblical account and sort of come to assume that this means Jesus Himself forgave the people, but the bible doesn’t actually say that He did forgive them. So we don’t actually have an example of the Son of God actually forgiving people for what they did to Him. My point is that the expectation of forgiveness sets a bar for us that there is no record that even Jesus met. This makes the expectation that forgiveness is humanly possible rather unrealistic.

The second reason “forgiveness” is over-rated IMHO is that it is so poorly defined. I have heard it variously described as a mindset, a choice, a decision, a feeling. These are very diverse concepts, so whether or not we can forgive depends on whether you see forgiveness as an action or series of actions, a lack of vengeful feelings, or merely a statement. Synergy, in your post you seem to have defined “forgiveness” as “making excuses” for the sociopath. That is as valid a definition as any other. However, you have already identified how that definition has not been helpful for you, and in fact enabled the abuse to continue.

In practical terms, I see no value in taking a position that enables abuse to continue. Therefore if “forgiveness” enables abuse, I would define it as a negative thing that should NEVER be done.

From a sociological perspective, “forgiveness” has been used as a means of social control. 500 years ago, women could not vote, and had very limited employment opportunities. They needed to get married and stay married as the only means to survive. Thus many, many women (and many children and some men) were trapped. They had no other choice but to stay in a dysfunctional family. The concept of “forgiveness” was a useful tool to keep the victims silent and cooperative. It also turned victimhood into a virtue, and enabled the victim to re-frame the reality of being trapped into something that gave them the illusion of control.

Societal expectations that victims needs to forgive abusers is a form of gas-lighting IMO.

I think we have maintained this old fashioned form of social control without really realising it. In the 21st century women can own property, support themselves and have control over their reproduction. Keeping victims silent and in place, packaged as “forgiveness”, doesn’t make sense any more in practical terms. Rather, it often adds more shame and guilt to the already overburdened and abused target. The victim of a sociopath does not deserve the added burden of thinking they “should” forgive their abuser, or that they are somehow deficient in not forgiving them. Now we have the option of No Contact, we don’t need to tie ourselves into knots trying to reframe being trapped by an abuser into the virtue of forgiveness.

I choose to define forgiveness as “not caring”. This makes it a cousin of “gray rock”. “Forgiveness” defined as “not caring” means the anger and shame and grief have stopped being the centre of your being. If you have feelings of revenge (and who doesn’t?), they are fleeting. Forgiveness for me is a state of not caring about the sociopath and his/her enablers any more. In fact, forgiveness expresses the same attitude as the definition of ”˜revenge’ as a life well lived.

I do believe that achieving a state of not caring about what the abuser did or is currently doing (the money they stole, the relationships they tainted), and also having fun once in a while, is the end point of healing from sociopathic abuse. I think this end point could easily be described as “forgiveness” (although I still don’t like the implied virtue/responsibility that this term implies).

So IMO, “forgiveness” is a social concept, that might have had some functional value in medieval times in helping serfs and slaves live with the awful reality of their powerless state. Nowadays, it seems to be more often be used to heap more guilt and obligations onto victims who have been fed the myth that “forgiveness” is necessary to healing. If some people feel it is important for them to forgive as part of the healing process, that is fine. However, if the need to “forgive” is keeping tormented people in abusive situations, or keeping them in the emotional torment of impossible self-expectations after they extricate themselves, then the concept of the need to “forgive” is just plain wrong.

Aim for a state of genuinely “not caring” about the sociopaths, and remove “forgiveness” from your vocabulary.

[Synergy]

Dear Madelaine, Thank you for this great and insightful email. I’m reading it right now…

[Synergy]

Hi again, Madelaine, Two interesting concepts about forgiveness. And I really like your analyses. Very good, insightful and intelligent. One thing I read in the Religion section of a newspaper years ago (the onl time in my life I read the Religion page) a minister wrote “You can forgive someone and not have them IN YOUR LIFE.” That was a revelation to me, because as you said about me, I had always found forgiveness to end up being giving the abuser an excuse to go on with his abuse. I spent years of being weighed down, losing my identity and enthusiasm, etc etc and keep forgiving, over and over.

You wrote: “Aim for a state of genuinely ‘not caring’ about the sociopaths, and remove ‘forgiveness’ from your vocabulary.” That’s essentially what a psychiatrist said to me, when I was in a state of feeling destroyed state after an only 6 week affair. I felt suicidal. It took me 6 months to get over it. But the psychiatrist said, “Synergy, there is love and there is hate. The two are closely allied (or maybe he said aligned?). What you need is INDIFFERENCE, Synergy. INDIFFERENCE.”

I came up with a way to do that. I had to see this guy every day due to circumstances beyond my control. So I decided to “examine” him “with a microscope, like an amoeba one glass slide.” The idea was to figure out what it was/is about guys like him the attracted me in the first place. (Frankly, I don’t think my analysis did me any good or affected my choices for the future, but it honestly did give me indifference to that particular bug.

[Madelaine]

Hi again, Synergy,
IMO sociopaths think in terms of power. That is a good enough reason for us to consider issues of power in trying to come to terms with sociopath mind games. Synergy, I LOVED your idea of examining the sociopath with a microscope like an amoeba on a glass slide. Mainly I loved it because of the implicit power relations. The Scientist puts the amoeba on the slide. The amoeba has no choice in the matter. The POWER is with the scientist 100\%. This is a great analogy which demonstrates that this variation of “gray rock” (scientist looking at an amoeba) gives us ALL the power and the slimy amoeba zero power. What a great outcome, indeed!

Being seen as a helpless, wiggling, brainless piece of disgusting pond scum must affect the sociopath on some level, who now experiences an abject loss of power over his hitherto helpless “puppet” who now has assumed the powerful position (in her view of the world).

This is a huge turning of the tables for the sociopath, especially because you are just being “professional” and “polite” (not nasty). I see a big serving of Karma in the situation you describe. Loss of the power to create heightened emotions in a victim would be a profound loss to a sociopath.

I agree that love and hate are alike from an energy point of view. Both are intense feelings directed at a single point, the sociopath. The sociopath is an energy parasite. He/she feeds on the energy of other people, and it doesn’t really matter if it is love or hate. Any intense emotion directed AT them is food for the sociopath. I almost think hate is a bigger buzz for them because then they can use enablers (“flying monkeys”), to punish the victim for being so mean to the poor victim sociopath in his/her pity plays. Hate by the victim seems to provide as many opportunities for the sociopath to suck energy from the victim as love does.

Being indifferent is being in a state of “no energy”. You are not spending a drop of energy on the sociopath. This automatically puts you in a more powerful position in terms of energy. Without strong feelings to play with (love or hate, fear or anger), the sociopath gets no energy supply. This would cause consternation for the sociopath who needs a constant supply of other people’s energy in the same way that other people need food and oxygen.

Thumbs up for your analogy of a scientist looking at an amoeba. It is a great (?? better???) variation of Gray Rock that gives the target a lot of power/control without requiring any emotional energy.

I think the actions/behaviors of Scientist and Gray Rock LOOK the same, but I suspect that there is an additional element of (appropriate) power/control in the Scientist approach which could be very healing to an abused victim, even in No Contact situations. It resets the power imbalance and restores dignity.

Dignity restored. I’d call that “forgiveness”.

[Synergy]

Great post to and for me, Madelaine. I sure appreciate your interest in my Scientific examination method! As for “not being nasty” I did pull off one or two sarcastic remarks to him in front of his latest “score.” It amused me greatly; I didn’t laugh out loud, and I don’t even know if the two of them understood the subtlety of my comment. But my intuitive, sudden insight to sarcasm really pleased me. I felt sly and victorious.

[Stargazer]

Synergy, forgiveness is one of those elusive things. It seems impossible but it is doable for anyone.

If you truly understand that happiness is within your own power to create, you will see that you have the power to choose whom to love or hate. You have the power to let go of a resentment, thus breaking the energetic tie to that person. If you need help, pray and ask, and it will come to you if you are open to receiving it. There may be some things you need to do first, like writing a letter to get the anger out. Or hitting pillows or taking some other action. Maybe you first need to forgive yourself for being resentful. Or maybe there is some sort of fear or guilt or beliefs about forgiveness that get in your way keeping you stuck. Ask for guidance and be honest with yourself about what is in the way. If you wholeheartedly intend to move forward, you can and you will. The obstacles will come up and you can address them. It’s important to know that the power to do this lies within YOU and not the other person. It’s great if you could get closure with people who betray you, if they could make it right to you and own up to their responsibility. Some people just can’t or won’t, for whatever reason. Don’t give those people the power to ruin your life by dragging you down with resentment.

[Synergy]

Dear Stargazer, you make some good points, but I have to say I disagree with you on most of it. One, I do not believe this: “If you truly understand that happiness is within your own power to create.” (I went to a counselor once who tried to get her clients to believe this. Then, she was kidnapped. She was held for over a week in a distant city. I wonder how she felt about her belief system after that.) Second point you wrote, “You have the power to let go of a resentment, thus breaking the energetic tie to that person. If you need help, pray and ask, and it will come to you if you are open to receiving it.” I did this for ten years or more. I was told , “You are not praying right.” People who can do this are saints, like Nelson Mandela, Victor Frankel and people like that. I am not a saint. I’m not going to try to be one.

[Stargazer]

Synergy, thank you for your post and sharing your experience. Did you get to speak with the counselor who was kidnapped to see if she was able to forgive her captors? There is nothing you mentioned (unless you left something out?) that would indicate that she chose not to forgive her captor.

I’m truly sorry prayer did not help you. Are you at least able to forgive yourself for not being able to forgive your perpetrator? It’s really okay to be angry, and there is no secret formula. Maybe the most respectful gift you can give yourself is to let it be okay to be angry and maybe the timing isn’t right to change that.

I was speaking from direct experience of having a lifelong resentment toward my mother and finally forgiving her when I was 48. It was empowering to do it, and it was even more empowering to see that I COULD do it, and that forgiving had nothing to do with how she responded to me = it was a choice only I could make.

[Synergy]

Dear Stargazer, I don’t know about the counselor’s final decision or feelings. I only ask myself how such an experience would affect her belief system.

You are right here: “Maybe the most respectful gift you can give yourself is to let it be okay to be angry and maybe the timing isn’t right to change that.”

I used to try to be some sort of saint. Now, I allow myself to be a regular person, to be human. I no longer deny my feelings As a matter of fact, I am at present steaming at the phone company. The tech came out yesterday, would not admit or did not know, that the phone company was what caused the problem. His repair only lasted less than 24 hours. The cell phone company, and my cell phone are history. I smashed the phone with a hammer the day before yesterday — I could not get a connection on it – again.

I’m glad you have been able to forgive your mother. I had a similar experience with my dad and other members of my family of origin. I made a list of things I could remember that were 100\% wonderful with them. Then, I realized that my parents were very young, that both of them had lost their same-sex parent at an early age (dad was 10, mother 17) and that they had no role models. It was easy for me to let go of most of my resentment.

[Jan7]

Hi Synergy, when I was younger a few times I did not forgive. Now that I am educated on narcissist & sociopathic behavior & destruction, I realize that those few people that I did not forgive fell into high levels of narcissist maybe even sociopath.

So the lesson I learned: My gut alarm was going off & I listen to it back when I was younger by NOT forgiven & getting them out of my life quickly.

Of course you hear thru your life “you must forgive”, so I started to not listen to my gut alarm & guess what? I let a sociopath into my life even thought the first time I met him my gut alarm was SCREAMING. And I let him stay in my life for over 14 years!! It was a nightmare like everyone that deals with a sociopath. Now I regret ever listening to people when they make the comment “you need to forgive”.

What I know for sure is: forgive good people who made a mistake, NEVER forgive a sociopath EVER.

Why never forgive a sociopath? because in my mind you let your guard down by “forgiving them” and may end up letting them back in your world or you end up letting another one in your world.

REMEMBER you must set boundaries to stay safe in this world & survive in this world…like a Castle who has a defense system i.e. a wall made of stone, guards, solid large protective door etc. Have your same defense system!! Protect yourself. These protective gut instinct are in our DNA.

I’m not saying never let someone into your world but be wise & smart and listen to your gut alarm…when it goes off…assess the situation and if need be kick them out of your life. And DONT FEEL GUILTY FOR NOT LETTING THEM IN YOUR LIFE!!

Read up on setting boundaries on line & look into books at your local library on the subject.

Also Remember: 1 in 25 people mainly men are sociopaths

1 in 5 are narcissists (75\% men)

throw in all the other disorders & you can see why you must listen to your gut & always clear bad people out of your life. These manipulative evil people are everywhere blending in. They are like land minds that you must avoid.

I think it’s more important after sociopathic abuse, is to forgive YOURSELF for letting them in & not listening to your gut in the first place. This to me is letting go and moving on with your life.

Obviously if say a good honest friend had to cancel a important event with you, you should not hold a grudge. Or if you can talk it out with someone & express your feelings & they make changes of how they treat you then let go.

My 2 cents worth 😊

[cloud79]

Certain things are unforgivable. Everything has it’s limits. I will never forgive mine ! He even contacted me to ask for forgiveness a few weeks ago, I ignored him. However, I was considering replying “I hope you burn in hell” And I truly hope he and everyone who knew about what he was doing and covering up for him, do burn in hell! Sometimes I wonder if finding out that something really bad happened to him like an accident etc. would make me feel better.

[Synergy]

Dear Jan7 and Cloud 79, Jan, Thank you for this: “What I know for sure is: forgive good people who made a mistake, NEVER forgive a sociopath EVER.”

I’m not religious, but I do read the Bible sometimes, and am pretty familiar with it. The Bible talks about forgiveness a lot. But the Jesus says in Luke, to forgive those who ask for forgiveness. It does not say to forgive everyone who hurts you. This is interesting: ” If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4. To me, “I repent” means he will not do it again.

I will follow Jan7’s advice and look into boundaries more. I think now I have good boundaries, but could do better, too.

[Synergy]

Cloud79 and Jan 7 — I just thought of something else, re: my previous post. I wrote: “To me, ‘I repent’ means he will not do it again.” But if he DOES do it again, this is not true repentance. So, it’s not something we can forgive a second time. ONE trespass against me is not allowed, at least in some cases. I have told my friends and family, “NOBODY yells at me. If they do, I turn around and walk away and NEVER LOOK BACK.” I say, “I’ve spent too many years of my life being yelled at, and yelling back. No more.” I’m also attuned to put-downs. Sociopaths, as we know, are very charming at first. Then, they “turn.” I remember one shock, when I made the mistake of not stopping the relationship right then and there. This guy who I later married, used to tell me how beautiful I was/am. Then, one day, we passed by a costume shop. There was a large gorilla costume in the window. He said with a laugh, “Looks like you!” If I get something that again, which I never do now, I would turn around, and walk away for good. No excuses, no apology, no reasoning from him. That’d be IT for him. Or her.

[Synergy]

PS I wrote: “No excuses, no apology, no reasoning from him. That’d be IT for him. Or her.” I add: “No pleading; no claims of helplessness or no other friends; no crying, no begging, or any other tricks — these are all manipulation. I don’t fall for it again.

[Jan7]

Your Welcome Synergy. This is what is so great about Lovefraud and the internet. We can ask questions & learn so much from each other. I always say that the sociopaths of the world never counted on the victims of sociopaths coming together to lift each other back up.

I’m not religious but I just googled “bible quotes keep the devil out of your life” and these quotes came up with an explanation:

“Ephesians 6:11 “Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.”

Another way to defeat the enemy is stated clearly in this verse. We must put on the spiritual armor that God has given us in order to withstand the schemes of the devil.

This special armor includes the helmet of Salvation, the breastplate of Righteousness, the belt of Truth, the shoes of the Gospel of Peace, the sword of the Spirit, and the shield of Faith. The apostle Paul goes on to explain that we are not fighting flesh and blood, but rather our warfare is against rulers and authorities and spiritual forces of evil. But with these weapons at hand and by putting them into practice, we can ward off the devil.

Philippians 4:8 “Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.”

An important way of warding off the enemy is by focusing our thoughts on things that are true and holy, like it says in this verse. In our new covenant with God, it is no longer just about our actions, but now our thought patterns are also important.

Satan often attacks us through our thoughts, so when we keep those pure then he cannot get a foothold. Hanging out with good friends and family that uphold godly characteristics and attitudes is also important in defeating the devil’s schemes.

2 Timothy 2:26 “”¦and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.”

All of us that follow Jesus are called to a higher standard of living and thought patterns. So the enemy is always trying to lie, kill and destroy us by whatever means he can. If he can tempt us in some way, or lead us into sin, he will do just that.

In this passage, the apostle Paul is reminding young Timothy how a Christian leader should be by writing,

“And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth”¦ (2 Timothy 2:24-25). When we do things God’s way, then we can escape the devil’s snares and ward him off.

James 4:7 “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”..”

[Jan7]

part 2:

James 4:7 “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is one of the most famous passages on fighting off the devil, because it clearly states that what we must do is submit ourselves totally to God and resist the devil. When we obey the Lord, and follow his will, then the devil will flee from us. We need to develop our character to be more Christ-like as well, and this will empower us in our attempts to defeat Satan’s attacks. This is exactly what Jesus did in the desert, as he resisted the devil’s temptations until he departed from him.

Bible Verses To Ward Off The Devil
I Peter 5:8 “Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.”

The apostle Peter also has some powerful thoughts to share on this topic. His advice is that we should always be attentive and watchful to the wiles of the enemy.

Satan is like a roaring lion seeking to devour us, so we must be alert and sober-minded at all times. This means that we cannot let down our guard, but rather we need to stay away from anything that might alter our mind or attitude.

This could include drugs or alcohol, but most certainly it pertains to faulty thought patterns. Peter points out that the devil is our adversary not a friend. Whenever we are tempted to disobey God, we need to realize that it is a trap to hurt or even destroy us.

CONCLUSION:

As Christians we need to follow the example set by Jesus, and shut the door on any traps or attempts to ensnare us by the enemy. He only wants our destruction.

Fortunately, the Lord wants to protect us and bless us, so he has given us the tools we need to combat the devil’s schemes. Living a life of obedience and godly character will truly help us in waging war against the enemy.

Speaking and praying Scriptures in order to rebuke Satan is also an example that Jesus gave, and I believe that it is a powerful way to ward off the devil as well. Lastly, keeping our minds pure and associating with others that are likeminded will also help us live lives that are honoring to God.

Written by Karla Hawkins

[Jan7]

I think the bottom line is we must listen to your gut. There have been studies that we humans can determine an honest person within 3 seconds of meeting them. So if your gut alarm goes off, listen to it.

Also I think it is important with a good person to have good communication. Sometimes it’s our lack of communication that gets us into unnecessary conflicts, so can lack of sleep or other things on our mind that are effecting our logical thinking when dealing with others.

What I know for sure with this is if you are getting the run around from someone that you what to discuss a conflict issue with…you are dealing with someone that might have a disorder. It is normal to usually come out with an apology if you say to them “the way you spoke to me the other day hurt me” but if you get a blame shift like “well it’s your fault” then analysis this. Were you actually to blame ? or is this person blame shifting?

My ex h (sociopath) was a master at turning everything around to blame me AND a master at switching the subject off of what hurt me. He knew how to mess with my mind & others. He was playing a game & I was not. If you see someone is playing a game…RUN away!!

[Synergy]

Dear Jan7, thank you so much for these three posts. Part 2 and the third one are my favorites of your three. Did you say you are not religious?? I may have misunderstood. I am no longer religious, but was for many years. That’s how I have learned quite a bit of Biblical passages. I’m familiar with several of the ones you posted, not all of them.

[Jan7]

You’re welcome Synergy. they are all good verses. I like this one:

2 Timothy 2:26 “”¦and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.”

To me that is it! I finally after 14 hellish long years came to my “senses & escaped”. Like everyone here too.

I remember Whitney Houston’s funeral was televised and the Paster stated: The bible is an owners manual (for planet earth) (paraphrasing his words). There is so much good advise & warnings in the bible even for us none church goers.

Good topic you posted to have a discussion.

[Synergy]

Hello, again, Jan7. Yes, I love this one, too. I was not familiar with it before. 2 Timothy 2:26 “”¦and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.”

Glad you and I and others are participating in this thread. Thanks.

[cloud79]

I thing this horrible experience taught me is not to give third or even second chances to people. This is when they take advantage of you. Since then I completely ceased contact with my toxic, manipulative and abusive mother . After she tried to brainwash my daughter during Christmas time and even physically attacked me. Not only I have never had any support from her, she used to always blame me for everything and tell me that I am not good enough for anything. When I was kicked and beaten up by my now ex husband. She told me off for calling the police as I was apparently causing trouble for him . I swear to God I will never contact her again and will never forgive her either.
I also deleted about 40 people from my Facebook. Blocked several people who I considered friends but I realised that the relationship with them has always been one sided . I honestly don’t need individuals like that in my life. No more chances and no forgiveness for those who purposefully and methodically try to ruin my life !

[Synergy]

Dear cloud79, Your post is fascinating — well, that’s not really the right word, but I can’t figure out exactly what to say.

It sure sounds like you are better off without your mother. That is always so unfortunate, to say the least, when family members, esp. parents and children, do not get along at all.

Well, here goes about my family. I look forward to hearing how things go for you. Do you have local friendships?

My dad was the one I had trouble with. Although, my mother was only supportive in the fact that she was physically present when I was sick, or something like that. But she was a “cool” or distant person. I never felt I really knew either of my parents, in an intimate way. They never shared their own lives, but expected me to share mine with them. It never occurred to me that this was a one-way street. My dad was emotionally, verbally, and physically abusive, particularly to myself and my brother. Our younger sister had figured out that she could be “the good girl” so she would not be the target of his anger. But being the “good little girl” has taken a huge toll on her adult life. She told me she didn’t know who she was. I’m hoping maybe that’s no longer the case with her, but I don’t know and won’t ask.

I separated myself from my parents at least 3x. Once I went 1000 miles away to college. But they still supported me, and I did not realize, at that young age, that the real way to get away was to support myself, not have any financial dealings with them. If I’d had solid (or any!) college counseling I could have worked part time, and gone to school part time, and graduate in several years rather than “on time”in four years. Another time I separated myself from them. That time, the husband of the day, and I, ran off thousands of miles, but came back. One time we left the country. In those days, it was difficult for people to travel far, or phone far, so I was free of them during those short periods of time.But one other time, I put my phone on Unlisted so they would not call me. But my dad, a very persuasive lawyer, did something or other to the phone company and the company rang him through!!!!!

[Synergy]

Madelaine wrote in one of her great comments on this thread: “IMO sociopaths think in terms of power.” I will address that concept shortly. I think I have figured out a way to forgive. A way that makes a lot of sense to me. It also has a lot to do with a sociopath’s need for, and seizing and getting power. On another forum I participate in, we were somehow discussing forgiveness there, too. One person wrote that forgiveness is seeing the other person or a situation “in a different way.” This was kind of an epiphany for me. I would expand this a bit: to see the other person, and/or the situation they are in or have been in, with great compassion. And with deep understanding.

Let me give one example of a person whose life and actions I can see in a different way, and with compassion. I can see that he has a great need for power. Why? Because for so many years, he had NO POWER. I married this man, and we were together for 11 years. We had some good times — some wonderful times — but I’ve mentioned here before that he was/is a gaslighter, and a liar. I would say he’s not a compulsive liar — that’s different. He colors the truth.

How he had no power: Let me start with how he was raised, and the kind of family he has. (His parents died years ago.) His father was an alcoholic, and smoked cigarettes, in the house. His father put down his children, sneering ridicule at them. His mother was a fanatical type of Christian, belonging to a sect some call a cult. People active in this religion do not drink alcohol, and do not use tobacco.

His mother’s religion/cult believes that reality is God’s love.Singularly, God’s love and nothing else. That there is no evil in the world, insofar as God’s love can and does melt it or soften it, healing the person of their hatred or other evil feelings or deeds.

She also believed that one must put God first in one’s life. She discouraged her children’s natural creativity, saying it was against the First Commandment by putting a passion for earthly things before God.

So, her children grew up in a make believe world. When they were hurt or hurting, it was an illusion. God would never allow his children t be hurt. The material things around us are unreal, they are an illusion, and truly IDEAS in the eternal mind of God.

So you can see several things here, in the life of a c hild, which carried over into his teen years, young adult, and adult values and behavior. One, he lived in a divided home — a violent tempered alcoholic smoker on the one hand, and a gentle but condemnatory mother on the other.

There were five children in the family. I met most of them, as adults. The one I knew best was his older sister. She was a consummate con artist, bilking people and companies out of tens of thousands of dollars while she travelled all over the world to exotic places, and repeatedly redecorated her large house, and bought new cars.

One brother had a drug problem. The man I married had had drug problems as a youth, and still smoked marijuana illegally, lying to me that he was using it. The man I married also believed that one time his brother had tried to poison him with spiked marijuana, which put him into a mental hospital.

Doesn’t all this illustrate to you how powerless he was — does it not explain how he came to be an adult grasping at power over someone he loved — me? Was I perhaps a substitute for the parents who abused him, since as any child would, he loved his parents and they betrayed him on a very deep emotional level.

It’s so tragic. Tragic for both of us. Tragic for anyone who is involved as a victim of a sociopath. I no longer hate him. But in a way, I never did anyway. I cried so, so hard, and for so long after we split up. He ruined me financially and damaged me in so many other ways. I grieved for two and a half years.

Can a person at the same time hate, and have deep compassion for a sociopath or other abusive person? This is NOT the type of weak forgiveness we hear about so often. It does not say that we must have the person in our life. We can do No Contact. It might take a long time, or not, to come to this type of forgiveness.

And now that I think about it, it’s exactly the kind of compassionate, deep forgiveness with deep understanding that I was able to have for my own father, over ten years ago.

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Frankly, I don’t feel any compassion for the man who deliberately lied to me for over a year , cheated , tried to infect me with a STI. I did feel sorry for him initially and that’s why I did not inform his wife’s attorney about him running with a loaded gun in the middle of the night and other serious incidents. Now I regret it . These people are not mentally ill and can tell right from wrong. I could perhaps forgive if that was the case.

Regarding they way my mother has been treating me my whole life , I believe that because of her abuse and complete lack of love I ended up with my sadistic husband, as I tried to get away from her as early as possible . And when finally I managed to free myself from that abusive relationship I fell into the clutches of this psychopath.

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