Open Discussion -How do you work though cognitive dissonance?

[funluvmusic25]


Hello everyone, I’d like to open up a conversation regarding cognitive dissonance. I’m sure I’m not the first person nor will be the last person to acknowledge how challenging this piece is when attempting to go NoContact. Most of us are emotionally bonded before we realize what’s happening to us. It becomes an addiction of sorts……..craving the attention and love from our partner, yet miserable under their abusive and demanding spell. In my case I feel like I was emotionally raped.

My relationship with my narc was long distance separated by approximately 450 miles.
Perhaps that was my saving grace and I was able to dodge what could have involved up -close and personal abuse. Nonetheless, with constant communication by phone I felt we truly knew and understood each other. Yes, there were red flags when we were able to be together in person, however given my “fix it” personality and giving him the benefit of the doubt, I chose to dismiss them. I truly felt I got to know a deeper side of him that was gentle, kind and looking for the same love I was. He was a very good listener and was there for me when I experienced the loss of my mother and other situational hard times. We used to have regular early morning phone conversations – these are the times I felt he was his most genuine self. To this day I swear I hear my phone ringing early in the AM only to realize it’s a dream. The memory of our early morning conversations are the times I miss him the most. Old habits die hard, yet I hate that I’m spending this amount of time thinking about him! My intelligent brain knows NoContact is my best recourse, yet my emotional brain tends to trip up my thinking.

There was a point where I witnessed his mask dropping exposing a very different side of him. I also became exasperated with his empty promises and felt he really couldn’t commit to being together. That’s when I abruptly left the relationship giving him no explanation and going NoContact. It’s been 10 months of No Contact and I don’t think a day has gone by that I don’t think of him in some way or another. Is this normal and what can be done to get through this? I feel like I had/have a love like no other which I know is typical with most of us who thought our N was “the one.” I’ve tried releasing all of my emotions somewhat like Donna suggests, yet he remains in my thoughts and those thoughts always remember the good, not the bad. One thing that keeps me strong is knowing I never want him to regain any power over me again. I also feel stronger knowing I pulled the rug out from under him by exiting the relationship without warning……something I’m sure he never expected and most likely bruised his over -inflated ego. When I’m feeling really sad I have to ask myself what I would even say if I made a move to reconnect with him? Oh yeah, “hi, I was thinking about you and thought I’d give you a call so you can continue to abuse and lie to me?” That sounds pretty lame, doesn’t it?

I think they pretend to be someone they’re not while painting a wonderful picture of a future. This is where I got hooked, yet when I realized his mask was slipping and he could not produce anything that resembled a future I couldn’t keep trying to make it work anymore. I get a small amount of satisfaction in the fact that I left the relationship, yet it still leaves an enormous void. This is surely cognitive dissonance at its finest! What do I do with it?

Typically, I would be the one that sent off a letter if we were at an impasse and he would respond and the cycle would start all over again. This time has been different- I left the relationship without any warning- no arguing, no pleading, no letters. I immediately blocked him initiating NoContact and that is what I can give myself credit for – finally doing something different!

I have no thoughts of dating right now – for me that is not an option…….I just don’t have any interest and don’t think that’s the answer. I know in past posts it had been mentioned to honor your part of being in love and not feel ashamed for opening up your heart. I understand this, yet it only makes me crave his love all the more. I’ve journaled our last conversation and I do go back to it which helps jolt me into reality. Sometimes it helps and sometimes not so much. I find in times of stress or when I’m feeling alone that’s when I want to go back to that “safe place” of his comfort. My friends are happy I finally woke up and surely don’t understand how I would go back to him over and over, so they certainly don’t want to hear me whining right now. My son also would disown me if he knew I was back with my narc. At one point he said, “who would want their mom dating a criminal?”

There were times I wouldn’t tell anyone I was back with my narc because I knew they would disapprove, so in a sense he was “my secret” and at times I felt it was us against the world. I know this sounds terribly naive on my part, and I also know I’m much smarter and stronger than the person who was involved with this narc. I sometimes have to ask myself, “ who are you anyway?” I will say I value my son’s opinion and would feel the same way if he was involved with someone with a questionable background. I do feel like a weight has been lifted since my NoContact as I’m no longer keeping secrets from family and friends. This should tell me I’m on the right track, right?

If I’m being honest with myself there have been many recent events that tend to put me in this “place.” These events are called “life,” yet change can really throw me off my game. My grandson has gone off to college this fall and as excited as I am for him, it’s adjusting to the change of not seeing him as often. Our 14 year old family dog had to be euthanized a month after my grandson left for college. It’s my son’s dog, yet I call it the family dog because I often took care of her and she was the best dog ever! Even my favorite lifeguard at the Y had his hours changed so I don’t get to see him as often and he was such a motivator with such a warm heart. These are certainly not earth shattering events, yet they leave me flaying and feeling a bit vulnerable. And that’s when my thoughts go to the so-called comfort of my ex-N. I should also mention the date that I met my narc is coming up (10/6), so I know that is also weighing heavy on my mind.

At any rate, perhaps you can join this conversation and provide some tips that helped get you through this painful stage. Also, if you did break NoContact did things go back to the same old, same old or did anything miraculously improve? I think I already know the answer……lol..

Thanks for listening and contributing to this conversation. I so appreciate your support!

[laylabelle]

funluvmusic25
Thanks for your reply, yes the distance helps, but not with the emotions.
I think, if you read a lot online on narcissism, they do see something useful in every person in their circle. Of course they do a very good impression of being in love, they ‘fall in love’ with your good qualities and abilities, but mainly with what you have to offer them be it money, ego boosting or lots of other things you may have that they need.
They very quickly copy your body language, phrases, likes and dislikes. I remember a couple of times when my ex told me whole stories relating them to his own past which I’d only told him about a couple of days before, it actually scared me as it was word for word. I think I knew right there that there was something off with him, but as usual I let it drop.
It’s strange but as he was getting to know me I oddly felt that he was in awe of me, he used the word goddess a lot I and researched online ‘ the difference between love and obsession’. A red flag in itself.
He was, I believe, a covert Narc. Always a quiet speaking victim who pulled at my giving and caring nature. He would say ‘ you’re the only one who gets me’, another red flag.
I don’t come here often because sometimes it triggers me but
I’d love to read other stories of why people felt they were targeted.
Take care everyone.

[emilie18]

Cognitive Dissonance to me is when your reality and your thoughts don’t match, when your actions and your beliefs are in conflict. It creates a very uncomfortable and contradictory state of mind and can drive you crazy. For instance I KNOW my boyfriend is cheating on me – I feel it in my gut. I might even have proof. But I never bring the subject up, never talk about it. My brain is whirling with all this suspicion, but my fear of losing him wins out. My heart says GO GO, but I stay. There are multiple ways to deal with this – the most logical and morally correct is to act on the truth, to rid yourself of the dissonance by changing. However, lots of things get in the way of that – fear of change is the biggest one. Logically, transformance should beat destruction. If I am eating ice cream while thinking about my diet, logically I should put down the spoon. But, but but – it TASTES so good, and it’s just once, and I deserve this and there’s always tomorrow… there’s the dissonance. He’s cheating on me. I see the texts. I have found the hotel room receipts. I KNOW. But, but but – he really loves me – he says he does. It’s just a fling. What would I do without him. I can change him…. ah – the lies we tell ourselves. Will I really start my diet tomorrow? Will I dump his sorry ass? I believe it all comes down to when we can finally say, honestly and without doubt “I Am Done.” And that takes a whole lot of courage and self-work. The start is recognizing the discomfort between what you believe and what you are doing. That’s where this site come into play — THIS is the proof that you DO see a dissonance and you are reaching out for some clarity. Now comes the work… do I put down the spoon? Do I confront him? Or do I just walk away?

[funluvmusic25]

laylabelle, You have made some very good points in your response. The disordered personalities all want something. I agree, they have their “flying monkeys” in their circle where they pretend to be a stand-up citizen in order to maintain their image with this circle. The flying monkeys would vouch for the narc and never see them for who they truly are. Their “love interest” ignores red flags and the narc gets quite good at fooling them as well. My ex-N was possibly a covert narc too……soft spoken, good listener, patient, yet definitely wanted control in certain situations. In my case the distance does help, yet emotions can sometimes take over my thoughts creating cognitive dissonance.
I’ve also felt being overly involved on this site can be reassuring and helpful, yet triggering at the same time. The more I bring to surface memories or stories of my relationship with my ex, the more it triggers my thoughts.

Thanks again for your honest and open response.

[funluvmusic25]

emilie18, Your analogy is spot on! Thank you for your clarity. In my case I did walk away. I finally realized nothing would ever change and enough is enough. I’m sure he never saw it coming although he was trying to apologize for a very disrespectful conversation we previously had. With his robotic apology he attached blame as well saying he apologized and if I didn’t accept it that was on me. He had no insight to how hurtful our previous conversation was. With that, I went No Contact blocking him without any warning and it has been 10 months of No Contact. I felt very powerful in doing this, yet if I’m being honest my mind can wander to what I thought were the good times. I know I can never come crawling back and give him any satisfaction or power by doing so. This keeps me steadfast and strong. I’m also intuitive enough to realize things would go back to the same old hamster wheel if I broke my No Contact.

As mentioned in another response sometimes this site can be triggering, yet strength in other’s stories can be helpful at the same time. Thanks for responding to this discussion……your support is very much appreciated.

[Donna Andersen]

funluvmusic25 – How long has it been since you broke off the relationship? Keep in mind that these relationships are addictive, so what you’re doing is overcoming an addiction. It does take time for their grip to loosen, and it can seem like an impossible task. That’s why 12-step programs advise, “One day at a time.” Just get through today. Then tomorrow. Then the next day. the longer you stay away, the more his grip on you loosens.

You may need to distract yourself. Novelty helps. This is a good time to do something new, perhaps something you’ve always thought about. Maybe a new hobby, course, organization. Anything new will help.

[funluvmusic25]

Hi Donna, Thank you for adding to this discussion. It has been 10 months since I broke off the relationship. It was a long distance 8 year relationship. In many ways it was my saving grace because of the distance, yet it was a slow and steady process of becoming addicted. Even though I saw red flags I easily dismissed them. It seems like it was a trade-off in order to have the relationship I’ve always wanted. I’m sure he was intuitive enough to see what I wanted and he clearly tried to mimic that. The emotional connection is the most challenging piece to overcome. During the 8 years we broke up many times only to get back together. Typically I would be the one writing a letter or making a phone call and everything would start up all over again. This time is different because I refuse to allow him any power or control over me again. Even though narcissists don’t have any emotions I know taking away his power and it being my decision not his decision bruised his ego to no end. This keeps me strong. The reality is it will never be the relationship I had wanted and he will never be the person he pretended to be. That said, I still have my moments. That is where the cognitive dissonance comes in. I know we are not wired like they are and I think we have to remember that what they display IS NOT / WAS NOT and NEVER WILL be REAL. Reality and our fond memories do not match up. It is both an addiction and a loss. One day at a time to get through our addiction and similar to grieving -we get through the 5 stages of grief and what we thought it could be. Every stage of grieving is different and personal to the one grieving. What I’m trying to do now is enjoy the present and realize life with him would have been miserable. As the old song goes,
“got along without you before I met you, gonna get along without you now.”

Thanks again for your support…….so appreciated!

[freya]

I seem to be breaking things off in slow motion. I told ‘S’ that I didn’t want to see him anymore, but he came by to declare his love, once again. One moment I catch myself saying internally- “I am glad he woke me up… I must try harder”. The next moment I think, “Am I out of my tiny mind!”

I purposely try to imagine all of the times and circumstances when I really did not like him. I banish the memories of when I felt happy with him. The truth is that there aren’t very many great memories, so it isn’t that hard! I have a meditation app that I listen to when I am feeling blue (“Waking Up”) and I am starting therapy this week, so I am feeling fairly optimistic. Have any of you tried therapy? Breathwork? Meditation? I think it all helps

[desigirl57]

He used to call me early hours of morning as well. My early hours and his late night. I sometimes still feel the phone is ringing in my morning dreams. Sometimes dream that this was all a bad dream, and I will wake up with his call.
However, times when I go weak, I read cases of cluster B people actually killing their spouses. In the Chris Watts case, his wife was utterly confused and bewildered by his behaviour before he proceeded to murder her and their children. The murder had no prior history of violence. But behind the impeccable mask, the partner does see cracks which sometimes are ignored by mistake. Not all cluster Bs will murder their partners but they can, potentially. They, most likely, will cheat. And if not that, they will definitely take and take from you, emotionally drain you. They know what they are doing, hence the mask of sanity. When I remind myself of his true self, all the missing, all the attractions are gone. The true self is so, so disgusting that no sane human can possibly miss that. What we miss is the mask, which was bound to falter over time to the partner.

[funluvmusic25]

desigirl57; I can certainly relate to situations when I think I’m hearing my phone ring in the early morning hours. They lessen as time has gone by with NC (14 months now).

Unfortunately, our birthdays are only 5 days apart during this month (January). I had previously posted that he found a way to reach me using a different phone number and he left a message wishing me a happy birthday, saying he still loved me and telling me to enjoy my day.

At first I was angry to hear his voice and maintained he was just baiting me, which is most likely true. Today is his birthday and to be honest, it pains me not to wish him well. I’m so used to being “nice” and doing the right thing that this leaves me questioning how, if at all, to respond? I feel I have to be cold-hearted when it comes to dealing with a narcissist, yet it certainly is not in my nature. I’m guessing he is betting on my kind-hearted nature to get his foot in the door, so to speak. My intelligent brain tells me to continue on with NC as this day, his birthday, will clearly send him a message if I don’t respond. My emotional brain struggles with being unkind, but I cannot risk starting all over again after 14 long months of NC. He clearly knew what he was doing when he cleverly used another phone number to get through to my voicemail. Shame on him- to his surprise, it’s going to backfire!

[sept4]

Yes I experienced severe debilitating cognitive dissonance during my divorce and also in a more minor form during an unrelated issue with my best friend.

It happens when your rosy beautiful fantasy and ugly reality finally clash. Your mind cannot handle the inconsistency or process it and basically starts malfunctioning because its (fantasy) world view is not consistent with reality anymore.

It’s the inconsistency of your blissful state of “delulu” (as Gen Z calls it lol – short for delusional) with reality.

What I’ve learned is that whenever I experience cognitive dissonance it means the ugly/bad/awful version of reality is true and the beautiful/good/dreamy version of reality is “delulu” – a delusion.

It’s harsh to realize you were in a state of delulu and your beautiful fantasy wasn’t real. But it’s true and the cognitive dissonance is your mind’s first step to bring you back to reality.

[funluvmusic25]

sept4: Thanks so much for your feedback regarding cognitive dissonance. It is interesting how we experience the “delulu” piece vs reality. It can leave us spinning for sure! It’s reassuring to know it’s the first step in bringing us back to reality.

My ex-N was very delulu and would draw me into his delulu world full of empty promises. How could he be wrong since he loved me, right? WRONG!! His “love” was also empty and fake, but little did I realize it at the time. Now after 15 months of NC I can clearly see the dream world he created and what I bought into. In some of my weaker and more lonely moments I still crave hearing him pronounce his love and all of his empty promises, yet now I seem to snap back into reality more quickly and the yearning is short lived. I mistakenly thought he was my best friend and I shared all of my inner most thoughts with him. Looking back I feel I was emotionally raped. He was never my best friend. He only filled a void at that time. When these weaker moments appear I try to refocus and busy myself with something else…….anything else, even if it means cleaning my oven…..lol.

I do feel cognitive dissonance is part of our healing even though it may be our biggest hurdle to get through. Even after 15 months of NC and a couple of “hoovering,” incidents, I still experience cognitive dissonance albeit short lived.
Thankfully, this sight and feedback like yours helps snap me back into reality.
Thank you !!!

[sept4]

Funluv yes I think we have all been through the same. The delulu is beautiful and wonderful so our mind keeps going back wanting the fantasy to be real.

Honestly I don’t think it will ever really go away. We just learn to live with it. I’m twelve years out from my delulu being shattered and I still miss the wonderful life I thought I had. I know now that it was fake and just based on lies and illusions and smoke and mirrors, but my emotions were real and I miss feeling that way.

I think it’s fine to accept you miss who you thought he was, you miss being in love, you miss feeling loved and desired and understood, and most of all you probably miss yourself how you were back then, happy and in love and trusting and carefree.

Even though it was delulu your feelings were real and beautiful. You can still miss it as something sweet in your life that made you happy at the time. And you can integrate it in your life in that way, just as something sweet and wonderful that you miss even though it was only half real. Your half was real, your emotions were real, just he was not real.

[sept4]

Oh and just to add yes I think cognitive dissonance is the first step of the mind back to reality because the sensation of dissonance means we are experiencing two inconsistent worlds: the delulu world and the real world. Before we ever experience cognitive dissonance we are safely floating in delulu not realizing it is fake. Once you experience cognitive dissonance it means your mind is realizing there is an incongruity, an inconsistency, that something is wrong, something does not add up. To even get that feeling it means your mind is slowly waking up to reality. So cognitive dissonance is a good sign that you are getting back in touch with reality and slowly out of the fantasy.

[funluvmusic25]

sept14: You are spot on when you mention how it felt good to be in love, happy and trusting. . I was just telling someone today that what I got from my relationship with my ex is all of those feelings and a sense that all was right with the world……until it wasn’t. I agree, the cognitive dissonance helps bring clarity and is the first stage of healing realizing there is the other side called reality. Sure it hurts to know their feelings were fake, yet I’m not going to beat myself up knowing my feelings were real. This is how it’s supposed to feel with the right person, of course. Thank you for pointing this out. It’s always good to look at another perspective. I do think of him in some shape or form on a regular basis, yet as you stated we just have to learn to live with it. What clarity has brought me is knowing he will never change or be the person I wanted him to be. And yes, when we only knew the delulu world it was hard to see any reality. I’m happy to know I’m waking up to reality and it’s part of healing. I’m now strong enough to know any going back to his delulu world would only be hopping on the hamster wheel going round and round without any change. No thanks!

Funny, how I previously mentioned I will do anything to snap me out of longing for him even if it meant cleaning my ovens. Well sometimes, even as helpful as posting on this site can be, it has a way of triggering me. So guess what I did this morning? I cleaned my double ovens! At least I accomplished something useful and now they are sparkling clean…….lol!!

[sept4]

Funluv yes I agree this site can be triggering. All the info on here is so helpful and so recognizable that it just brings everything back and you relive everything all over again.

I have done so much recovery work and educating myself and everything is clear to me now. But I have not yet reached the final stage of recovery which would be just not thinking about my ex and my prior suffering anymore. Then I would not even go back to this site or anything related because I would just be thinking about happy new things and living a happy new life without constantly thinking about the past.

I truly hope I can reach that stage one day. I think a healthy new relationship would help my mind to move on from my ex but I have not found that yet. Thankfully I have zero desire to go back to my ex or to have any contact with him so that is not the issue. I would like to just move on mentally where I am freed from still thinking about him and still replaying the abuse in my mind.

• This reply was modified 9 months ago by sept4.

[funluvmusic25]

sept4, I agree with you on wanting to be able to set our mind free of the constant ruminating. I wish my brain had a switch I could just turn off. Ironically, remembering his evil side helps me become stronger and emphasizes what I will not tolerate in any future relationship. I do feel my thoughts of him are getting fewer and further between which is helpful. Sometimes this site can be triggering, yet it also helps us find strength in numbers too. Right now I’m concentrating and finding my happy place in my son, daughter-in-law and college age grandson……..these are the things that truly matter. My ex would have never fit in at family functions no matter how much he tried to display his good side. My son’s radar is typically spot on and he’d have him figured out in a NY minute. I know now I’d never want to be pitied for my poor choice in men. The only thing I can offer is to be thankful we are both on the other side of this awful piece of our life. Onward and upward, if it only means getting my ovens cleaned to help get through these moments ………lol!

[freya]

I have been off the radar for a few weeks traveling in Mexico- Just what the doctor ordered! Highly recommended.

sept4, Do you mind my asking how long you were married? I think it would be particularly wrenching to get to the point of marrying someone with N.P.D. and then having to endure a divorce!

I had misgivings about my ex almost immediately. It felt odd that he had no close friends after living 30 years in the same town. I was unused to someone wanting to spend all his spare time with me. And it felt odd that he never wanted to do anything or go anywhere if it cost him $$. He began dating other women within months of meeting me. Still, I fell for his constant declarations of love. He is still in touch by email declaring his love, even as he is living with another woman! Why? It is so bizarre. I may move to another city just to escape the memories.
As painful as this episode has been, I cannot imagine how much worse it might have been, had we married.

I also puzzle over the fact that these people share qualities so consistently. I don’t think it is consciously planned, nor do I think people with N.P.D. are able to see what is obvious to the rest of the world- that they use people. They hurt people. They don’t behave in any of the ways acceptable to healthy relationships. Even though I think I know my Ex better than anyone else in the world, I don’t really understand how he can find his life ‘happy’ or ‘satisfying’! Do you folks believe these people can be content. Contentment, to me, means being less focused on oneself. I guess that is why travel is so therapeutic for me, although it is obviously not available to everyone…

[emilie18]

I get the “triggering” part of posting on here – but I also SO need the input from those who have shared and understand what I have experienced. I cannot talk to family about this — like funluvmusic25 said – I don’t want to be pitied for my bad choices in men. And boy have I made some bad choices! My son’s radar, too, was dead on about the narcissist – he hated him from the minute he met him. My sister, who is my closest friend, has been happily married for 50 years, is deeply religious, and just keeps telling me “give it to God”. I have been told to move on, to let it go, to stop dwelling. Not helpful. But you on here — you get it. You understand. Thank you! I, too, have cleaned a LOT of ovens. And traveled (totally agree with freya — that is wonderfully healing – but expensive).

It has been years since the narc was in my life and I feel finally totally free of him – now I can think on that experience as a learning time, without self recriminations and regrets. But – it took a long time. I am much more aware of the “willies” and spine tingles when I meet people, much more alert to red flags. When my long-term relationship with a bona fide “nice guy” who had severe commitment and trust issues reached a point of no return, I let him go without regret.

As far as whether or not a sociopath/narcissist can ever be “content” – I believe they are totally happy with who they are as they have no awareness of empathy, regret or anything other than their own self-satisfaction. They live for the pain they cause, revel in, relish winning at any cost, and never look back. They are perfectly happy with who they are, because they don’t give a rats-ass about what anyone else thinks.

Stay strong, my good people. We all have each other’s back!

[funluvmusic25]

freya; First let me say your travels sound both awesome and healing! Good for you!

As sept4 pointed out, these disordered personalities are aware of what they are doing as they inflict pain on us. They enjoy seeing us confused, distressed and in pain. They are sick, sick people. As for being content, I don’t think they are ever content as we know it. They are easily bored and constantly on the move to find a new source of supply. This does not dwindle as they age either…….they still want to prove “they still have it.”

During a time when my ex and I had a falling out he found and moved in with someone else who could provide what he needed- three square meals, sex and a roof over his head at no expense to him. He started calling me while he was still with her, but described her place as just a “pit-stop.” Like me, she thought their relationship was real, but to him she was just one more person he could use. The one thing they probably aren’t aware of is how odd and laughable some of their statements are.
Like you, I knew there were things with my ex that seemed off, but his constant love bombing kept me coming back for more.

When I think of all the decisions that I make on a daily basis that he would have demanded to be a part of had he moved in with me, I am so thankful that never came to fruition. These are the things that bring me peace and joy…….making decisions that are in my best interest by myself, not spending large amounts of money on what he would have demanded and funny as this may sound, not having to provide sex when he demanded it and then endure only his self absorbed part in it. This is where I truly give thanks as I navigate my now 15 months of NC.

These personalities do share a common thread in their mode of operation, yet I don’t feel they are aware of this common thread as they are so self absorbed. I compare it to having a disease that is common to others- the disease typically has the same markers. N.P.D. Is a disease, yet unlike other diseases there doesn’t seem to be any treatment for it.

[funluvmusic25]

Yes, I agree with emilie18, this site and sharing stories plays a huge part in our healing. Although it can be triggering at times, I find it’s less triggering the further along we are in our healing …….and having clean ovens once in awhile doesn’t hurt either!

When I read emilie18’s thoughts on whether these personalities are content I now see it from a new perspective and would have to agree- in their strange world that they live in they are quite content because they don’t have the typical emotions that most of us feel. I see that now looking through a different lens. Thank you for sharing that emilie18!

[sept4]

Hi Freya yes we were married for fifteen years so a very long time. It was actually many years of bliss for me because he kept up the love bombing for almost the entire marriage. He hid his sociopathic pursuits in a double life and I was blissfully unaware.

Of course now looking back I see all the red flags and all the things that didn’t add up but at the time I was just blissfully ignorant and in denial which protected me from the awful truth.

I do think my ex is happy now because he is wealthy (partially from crime) which is the only thing that ever really mattered to him. He is enjoying all the things he wants out of life which is money, status symbols, lots of women, lots of alcohol and drugs, just living the fast life.

I think he will be happy in his own way until he gets caught and goes to prison. Or if he loses his money in some way. I think money or prison are the only things that would really affect him. Other than that he simply does not care about any other type of consequences and he will just keep indulging in his life of excess.

[freya]

Oh Dear,

I am so sorry. That must have been so painful! What a jerk. I hope he gets caught.
I know we should not give a *#!#, but still I prefer to think that contentment will be illusive to such people. There must be an interior empty space in their psyche. I urged my Ex to reconcile with his son from whom he was alienated. His illegitimate daughter (The same age as his son) wants nothing to do with him. He has no real friends or close siblings. His life looks unpleasant to me but I guess it is what he wants. I am sure that the latest girlfriend will have to live in fear of losing him. She is neither pretty nor wealthy. She knows about his N.P.D. because I told her! But who knows, maybe she is happy to take on a child/man and spend her retirement savings on him. I know he will drop her, as he did other women, as soon as a better ‘Mommy’ comes along. A lonely life…

[funluvmusic25]

I do think they’re happy in their own way as sept4 suggested ……..they live on the edge always pushing the envelope and that’s what excites them. However, they really don’t have a soul resembling an empty shell of a human being. For those of us that witness them it’s both appalling and sad. On the other hand since they don’t possess any emotions they don’t know anything else nor do they seek help or want change. Instead they mirror us in hopes it makes them look like a better person.

[sept4]

Yes my ex does not have genuine close relationships either, his “friends” and girlfriends and entourage are there because they get free money and drugs and gifts. The fast party life. He is estranged from his sister who is a lovely genuine wholesome normal person.

The thing is just they have no interest in genuine wholesome meaningful relationships with genuine normal people. That is just extremely boring to them and it has no value to them.

It would be like trying to convince a shark to try to have a meaningful genuine relationship with the little fish in the sea. It just would not connect in the shark brain. The little fish mean nothing to the shark except food. Other than that they are merely just an annoyance.

• This reply was modified 9 months ago by sept4.

[sept4]

I was also just thinking about how easy this pattern is to see in other people that you have no connection to.

For example looking at Kanye West and his new wife Bianca Censori who he parades around nearly naked wearing extreme fashion outfits. It is very obvious to me that he is extremely narcissistic and he is controlling her psychologically and parading her around like an object and that he has isolated her from family and friends so he can have complete control over her to use her as a doll or puppet to dress up and show off.

Looking at them I don’t experience any cognitive dissonance at all because it’s so clear to me what the reality is of their relationship. Yet I was in a very similar structure myself and from the inside I experienced it completely differently. I was in some delusional state of mind where I believed my husband truly loved me and that we had a great marriage and a wonderful life. Maybe Bianca is in that same delusion but yet from the outside it’s so easy to see with clarity what is really going on.

• This reply was modified 9 months ago by sept4.

[funluvmusic25]

sept4; what great analogies that you pointed out both in the shark and Kanye West situations! It is amazing to me how much clarity there is once we are away from our relationships. I think as we move forward we are able to spot these red flags and their personalities much quicker.

I had a falling out with a female friend who always had so many empty promises and excuses for her lack of participation in our friendship. Earlier on in our friendship she always had to be the center of attention, yet at that time I would have never imagined a female friend could be a narcissist. After many years of me being the one to initiate contact and chase after her to get together I finally called her out on her behavior. Instead of trying to make amends or work on our friendship she ghosted me. I then realized it was all about her and heaven forbid she own up to her part of anything. So now I can clearly see that it can affect both males and females and also family members for that matter. In many ways we are better for having experienced what we’ve gone through with our ex’s, if merely the fact that we’ve learned to spot the predators out there.

[freya]

Funluvmusic and Sept4,
With my Ex resuming his love bombing,(” you are the love of my life”, Just trust me. I swear you will be happy”), I need to keep reminding myself of his past statements (“I need total control to be happy”, “What are you capable of doing to make me happy?”, “Other women think I am sweet.I only want to hear positive, loving words from you, no criticism.” etc.) Cognitive dissonance- you bet!! It is helpful to hear from you folks because friends and relatives do not understand why I spend an additional 5 minutes agonizing over this selfish individual. I don’t understand it myself. I once thought I was a strong person. Now, I am not so sure.
Thanks for sharing your stories!

[funluvmusic25]

Freya; I’m happy to share my story and if it can inspire anyone, all the better. I know other’s stories have encouraged me and sometimes left me relieved thinking, “ wow, I’m glad my story didn’t end in financial ruin or affect my health or worse.” I find as my NC is currently at 15 months I’m much stronger, cognitive dissonance is now just a fleeting thought and this site is not as triggering given the encouragement and support it brings. I know you will get there too!

What I can suggest is blocking him from every device and don’t look back. Enjoy being free from all of his confusing words and actions. There were many friends and family that thought I had ended it with my ex long after I fell back under his spell, so basically I kept him a secret. I know someone had once said if you have to hide your relationship or make excuses it is not the right relationship for you. Once I went NC I felt a weight had been lifted from my shoulders since I no longer had to hide things from friends and family. The one friend I confided in just kept shaking her head when I would relay stories about him. I knew she was disappointed in my choice, yet she continued to be a good friend and just listened. Now she is my biggest cheerleader.

Keep remembering his evil, controlling side…….document it in a journal and go back to read it when you are having a weaker moment. You are a strong person and will be better off without him. Treat yourself well and give yourself grace. Things do get better without them!

[sept4]

Funluv yes I also always think my story could have ended much worse such as effects on my physical health or even criminal liability if he would have been caught with drugs or fraud etc in our home or business. In the end I walked away with financial damage and emotional damage but at least I’m healthy and not dead or caught up on some criminal scheme.

My one wish now is really to just be able to let go mentally so I don’t think about him anymore. I spend too many days replaying the abuse in my mind and compulsively thinking about how I could have handled the situation better to avoid all this damage. I wish I could go back and protect myself from the psychological abuse and financial abuse. I just keep playing that over and over in my head.

[funluvmusic25]

sept4; I think we are all guilty of over thinking our situations. It’s ironic how we put the blame on ourselves wondering how we could have avoided our situations. We’re thankful for getting out alive. To be clear, we never would willingly go into a relationship that was detrimental, but we forget how cleverly they can highjack our reasoning and our emotions. We were not in the wrong…..our feelings were real feelings of love and attachment that any normal person would expect. We have to realize they are never asking how they could have been better partners. The onus is on them, yet unfortunately they will never feel guilty about anything they’ve done. Time has a way of fading the memories. Try to look ahead to a happy and healthy life for yourself and let the past be the past.

[funluvmusic25]

Hi all,
Since most disordered personalities tend to have the same pattern of operation I’m just curious if any others have experienced this with your ex upon first meeting them……………my ex approached me when we met at a music event and proceeded to tell me I was the type of woman he liked. When we started to go out on our first few dates I noticed he never looked at other women and basically concentrated on me and me only. I’ve been with men who tend to look at every female that walks by and was surprised that my ex-N didn’t. After all, he was a good looking guy that I’m sure could easily get the attention of other women, yet he paid full attention to me when we were out in public. I’m guessing it was his way of really studying me to use later for his benefit. And this brings up another question….how do they go about meeting other women while they are still in a relationship with us? Guessing the same way they met us, yet they keep it on the down-low until they are ready to discard us. At any rate, I’m just curious if this mode of operation was similar to your experiences?

[freya]

Funluv- In my case, it is a little different. I approached him. He is interested in women with low self-esteem who pursue him. They are easier to control. Deep, deep down he is insecure, I think. He is terrified of strong women, yet eventually he views the (few) women who have worked hard to hang on- as “doormats”. I think it was Picasso who said that the women in his life were either Queens or Doormats. Typically, first one, then the other.
I am still ruminating on my ex,(sadly) because -in spite of his many other women in the past 6 years- he keeps pursuing me. Of course, my ego wants to think I am special, but it might be that I never fully fell for him, and that he becomes bored with the “doormats” that fawn.. Okay that may be a politically incorrect term, but when he tells me that his women have been compliant, obedient, and appreciative I have to wonder….

[funluvmusic25]

Freya, maybe their approach varies, yet their agenda, behavior and motive seem to be very similar. I would agree that they all are very insecure given all of the research that talks about them mirroring us and almost being jealous of us. I think you have a good point when you talk of him pursuing you…….he wants power over you which you haven’t completely complied with. Have you tried completely blocking him?
It’s interesting – as similar as they can be they’re like a puzzle when it comes to figuring them out!

[sept4]

Funluv yes mine also only had eyes for me and I think that is just part of their manipulation strategy. The easiest way to seduce a woman is to (pretend to) have eyes only for her. Also known as the “predator stare.” You are their target, their prey, so they will concentrate 100% on you to capture you so they can use and abuse you and eventually when they are done discard or destroy you.

Btw I think the discard is actually a blessing even though it hurts us so very much. I think their true inner desire is to destroy us and for us to literally disappear and stop existing. I think in their deepest inner predator self they want to murder us. But it’s too risky and too cumbersome etc so thankfully they just discard us instead.

[sept4]

Freya for my ex women only have two purposes: sex or to fawn over him (like his mother who was in awe of him and thought he walked on water). He does not see any value in women beyond that.

Women as people just don’t exist to him other than for sex or fawning. He sees women as objects with only those two purposes. I think he does not even experience women as having a soul or existence. They are just inanimate objects to him. Good for sex or fawning or otherwise they are defective and worthless.

[funluvmusic25]

sept4; Interesting to know they have similar patterns in their approach…..at least with some narcissists. Yes, they are busy seducing, targeting and studying their prey.
Perhaps they don’t multi task very well with the exception of cheating while hanging on to others.
My narcissist’s mother did not dote on him. From what I learned she was very strict and firm with him and did not show much love. She was divorced from his father and she always stressed to him not to be like his father who was a womanizer. I sometimes think he desperately missed having a father figure growing up so he tried to model himself after his father and tried not to show any emotions like his mother. I believe he wanted power over women since his mother overpowered him growing up. In some ways his behavior was revenge against his mother. He liked strong women and said weak women would allow him to do anything, yet it probably was a challenge to manipulate strong women and see what he could get by with.

Yes, the discard can leave you spinning, yet in disguise it can be both a life lesson and a blessing. I’m not sure they will ever be completely figured out, but looking at similar patterns they follow gives us valuable insight.

[sept4]

Funluv yes I think the relationship with their mother is very relevant to shaping their disorder.

In my ex’s case his mother idealized him and enabled him. He was her golden child and could do no wrong. I think she was actually in love with him and maybe had romantic or sexual feelings for him. She used to call him her “boyfriend” and she also used to show me his old jock strap from when he was a little boy playing sports and she used to rub over it. How creepy is that!!!

My therapist during the divorce actually asked me if he was abused as a child and I said no not to my knowledge. But who knows what really went on there.

[funluvmusic25]

Very creepy, sept4! I’m curious as to how his father played a role in his life and what his father’s relationship with his mother was. It was a very valid question your therapist raised. I would guess if your ex was actually asked the question he would be horrified and vehemently defend his mother. When a relationship such as theirs starts at an early age the grooming and abuse would not be thought of as wrong. In his mind she adored him, he could do no wrong and I’m sure he could get whatever he wanted even if it meant putting up with her abuse, if that’s what really was happening. It’s amazing how parents can shape their children’s lives. I imagine it was very difficult for you to have such a strange mother-in-law?!

[sept4]

Funluv well his relationship with his father was difficult and revolved primarily around money. They were both obsessed with money and his father loved that my ex made a lot of money but disapproved of his extravagant spending. My ex was also involved in the criminal world and his parents knew that but tolerated it – his father because of the financial benefits and his mother because her golden boy could do no wrong.

The strange part is that his parents were actually always very loving to me and supportive of me. I think because they hoped I would stabilize him and make him settle down and they wanted grandkids. Even during the divorce they stayed loving and supportive for several more years until eventually my ex succeeded in turning them against me and alienated them from me. I actually still really miss them to this day. They always felt like family to me and I was devastated when I lost them too after my ex turned them against me.

[funluvmusic25]

sept4; I’m sorry to hear that you lost your ex’s family, especially if they were very loving and welcoming towards you. Our ex’s can twist and turn the most sensible people against us. After all, look how convincing they were with us at one time!
Interesting that his parents overlooked and tolerated his criminal activity all in the name of greed and not wanting to face reality.

As you mentioned before, you were blissfully in love during most of your marriage. Can you imagine the financial and criminal ruin not to mention the emotional and psychological damage that you would have incurred?! Thankfully, you are on the other side of it now.

[freya]

Funluv and sept 4,

I have been following your discussion with interest. Your story sounds so very difficult, sept4!
I am feeling ashamed because I have been seeing my ex for coffee out of loneliness and in hopes that he might be able to change. I am a senior citizen, so the prospect of loneliness is real

His childhood was this: He is foreign born and his Mom was about 14 when she was married. He was the result of her 5th pregnancy, which included a couple of miscarriages. he had seven siblings. He was handed off to a wet nurse as an infant. I speculate that,far from being the favored son, he was a needy boy who received inadequate nurturing. There is one particular psychologist who claims that people w N.P.D. try to recreate the relationship w their mothers (or fathers?) from whom they must separate and reject, repeatedly, in their relationships w girlfriends and wives. Just as they might have done as children, the relationship w Mom is fraught… (or fathers, too? in the case of women w N.P.D.)

When I see him, now, I am kind of horrified by his demands. At the same time, I puzzle over his psychology and that of his girlfriends. I have always been a disappointment to him because I have close friends/family and interests that consume some of my time. I am interested in a partnership relationship not a dictatorship. He wants all of me: all my time, all my autonomy. I don’t understand how others could stand it, even if he is cute and charming. He told me that he has cycled through at least 6-8 girlfriends since I met him. That’s news. It is easy for him to meet women- he is an adult Ed.instructor.He tells me that the latest woman does everything he wants (admiration, nurturing, constant companionship), but he doesn’t really care about her. I ask him what he wants w me if she is all that he desires? Because he still ‘loves ME!”- so he says. I guess I’ll never quite comprehend… I just feel defeated because I know that I either relinquish my soul to this man or face loneliness in this- my declining years.

[sept4]

Thanks Funluv, yes I try to console myself by telling myself the damage could have been much worse if I had been pulled into his criminal activity. He was drug trafficking and sex trafficking from our home and our business so if there had been a raid I might have gotten arrested even though I had no involvement.

Freya I understand about the loneliness. During our breakup I still met up with my ex platonically for about a year and a half, telling myself we needed to meet up to discuss business and financial matters for the divorce but really it was just out of loneliness. In fact I think loneliness was the hardest part for me of the breakup/divorce. Everyone says it’s good to be alone after abuse but sometimes the loneliness feels worse than abuse and we do anything just to relieve the loneliness. So I understand but of course I hope you will meet someone healthy instead who will be loyal to you.

[funluvmusic25]

sept4 and freya, This has been a very interesting discussion and I thank you both for sharing the details of your individual stories.

sept4: I would agree that if your home or business was raided you would be seen as an accomplice and the consequences could have been much worse than what you went through in your divorce. I totally understand the loneliness, especially when we thought they were our best friend and we opened up our heart and soul to them. I too have questioned whether or not having him in my life to fill the void would be better than the longing for him. In my case he lives two states away so I don’t have the option of easily getting together with him, although a road trip has entered my mind. However, I would just make it more convenient for him and if he was any type of stand-up man, he should be fighting for me.

freya, I too am a senior so I understand how loneliness can highjack our emotions. Don’t ever feel ashamed of yourself – you, like all of us, are human. Your ex’s explanations are confusing, to say the least. I believe you present a challenge to him so he uses the word “love” to reel you back in. I do think given a poor or distant relationship with a parent wires them in some shape or form. Some try to fill the void with numerous partners while some try to retaliate towards their parent by abusing their partner. It continues to be a mystery to figure out. I think your ex was jealous of the fact you had friends and family and it was something he’s always wanted so he takes his frustrations out on you. Most do want to isolate us from friends and family.

I think we will continue to experience loneliness as we make our way through the healing process. We would like to rely on friends and family, yet they are never quite the same as our relationship with our ex’s. Our feelings were real and that tends to trip us up. We have to remember their feelings were fake and try as we may to live up to their demands we’ll only end up exhausted – it is a no-win game they play.

I hope we all find our way to the happiness and contentment we deserve!

[sept4]

Thank you Funluv

I’d like to ask you and Freya and anyone else’s opinion on a topic I raised in a different discussion.

Do you think I should report my ex with an anonymous tip to police? At the time of our divorce I was trauma bonded and afraid of my ex so I never disclosed his criminal activity to lawyers or police or court.

Now many years later I sometimes feel like I should have reported him. I did not keep any evidence of his crimes but I could send in an anonymous tip. Sometimes I think I have a moral obligation to report him but I am also afraid of his retaliation. What are your thoughts?

[funluvmusic25]

sept4; I would think long and hard about tipping off authorities. Without evidence they may not take you seriously. If you and your ex are living in the same state it wouldn’t be hard for him to figure out where the tip came from. As much as I hate being intimidated by them, the repercussions could be detrimental for you. Another thought is if it was going on while you were married what’s to prevent the authorities to question whether you knew of it back then? You might be put under the microscope and your ex could cleverly give them a line of BS to make it look like you are crazy and imagining things.

I know the moral obligation is important, yet give them enough rope and they will eventually hang themselves without your help. His family, even though they tolerate his dealings, would also be very hurt if he was found guilty and sent to prison. You have to consider the other people that it would involve.

As an outsider it’s always easy to give an opinion, but my first thought would be for your safety. Have you posed the question to your therapist? That might be the safe place to process your thoughts on this. I feel it’s time to let go and move on with positive things for yourself rather than create more chaos you’ve worked so hard to move away from.
Just my humble opinion, but your safety is your number one priority.

[freya]

Sept4, That is a very difficult question to respond to without an intimate knowledge of the crimes and the person involved! If you have any concerns that he could retaliate in a physical or meaningful way, I would advise that you do not report him!

Is he still actively dealing harmful drugs? Still hurting people? In that case, you would be morally on solid ground to speak to law enforcement on the condition of anonymity. But if this is a revenge fantasy (totally understandable!!) its probably ill-advised.

B.T.W., I sometimes have the revenge fantasy of posting a warning sign outside of my ex’s classroom: warning- date at you own risk!

[freya]

I am still pondering the differences between our Narc’s life stories. I wonder if the sort of person who is overly indulged (smothered?) by their parent tends to become the “grandiose” variety of N.P.D. while the sort of individual who is neglected or intermittently parented is more apt to become the covert variety.

Were your former partners exceedingly sensitive? Did they contradict themselves frequently? My ex certainly was/is. (Covert variety?) I never knew what he would criticize. Things like, “you are 10 minutes late. You don’t love me”. ” You didn’t show me enough attention and affection at that party. You don’t love me.” “You talked too much to your son and not me. It was humiliating.” “you didn’t stop me from seeing other women. Whats wrong with you!” When I argued w him about seeing other women: “Stop trying to control me. We aren’t married!” Later on; “you have been in control for 6 years!”..a statement he repeats all the time even though he came and went as he pleased, dated other women as he pleased, and asked me to be ‘on call’ when he wanted my company. The world is upside down in his mind.

[funluvmusic25]

freya; Sometimes I’m not sure we can put our ex’s in one box. My ex’s mother did not show a lot of affection and was very stern according to his recall. His parents divorced when he was only 4 years old due to his father’s womanizing. They lived with his grandparents and his grandmother was very loving, yet his grandfather was the staunch ruler of the household. I think he learned a lot from his grandfather who always told him to “hold his head high and nobody comes better than you.” My ex was very grandiose and when I first met him I thought he was very arrogant. We had an incident one time visiting a museum in his home town……I can typically wander off looking at whatever caught my eye at the time and he was very upset with me saying a woman should always be by her man’s side saying someone might think she is single and make a move on her. He dwelled on that for a long time which I found very odd. I’m very independent and never thought of myself as his procession. Some of his grandiose statements were almost laughable. He lived a high life in CA while he served in the Navy and then later had a government job with the Navy. He was used to the fast life, fancy things, lots of women and no responsibility except for his job. I think he was living a life similar to his father’s womanizing life. He moved back to his home state to take care of his mother who was aging and had dementia. I don’t think he really had a plan once back home and would be with women who could provide a roof over his head. When we met he explained how he had matured and wanted to settle down with the right woman. There was a lot of empty promises and excuses not to come to my home state to see how things would work. I told him I wasn’t asking him to marry me or pack a U-Haul and move in, I just wanted to see if we would click since so much of our relationship was long distance. This is where I think his insecurities came in, although he would never admit it. He knew I was independent, owned my own home and had a great relationship with my son and his family. I sometimes feel that he thought he wouldn’t measure up. He was never emotionally or physically abusive to me until our very last conversation when I felt his mask had slipped. I think I’ve since given up on trying to figure him out. I will say I really loved him and there is a big void without him, but that was then and this is now. If I ever considered going back to him I’m certain nothing would change. I believe the common thread they all have is their patterns of behavior……..some can be needy and some can be arrogant and grandiose, yet they are all predictable.

[sept4]

Freya your theory definitely fits for my ex. His mother idealized him like he was baby Jesus himself. He turned into a classic grandiose narcissist.

Actually it is almost laughable how textbook grandiose he is once you educate yourself on narcissism. Anyone with even slight knowledge of narcissism would immediately recognize him as such as soon as he walks through the door. He is just like Gaston in Beauty and the Beast!

[sept4]

And on the topic of reporting my ex to police I have decided not to do it. I’m going to just leave it be. I’ve struggled with this for a while now but after thinking it through and considering all the circumstances I’ve decided to just leave it alone and not to report him.

[funluvmusic25]

sept4; I’m happy to hear you’ve made your decision. I know it couldn’t have been easy for you, yet I applaud you for considering the repercussions it could bring. Your ex has to face what he may face at some point if he ever is found out. In the meantime you can use your energy to take care of yourself and be better for it. Be well.

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