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By | December 11, 2007

A common verbal ploy of the psychopath

This is my first post on the LoveFraud blog. It’s a great pleasure to be part of this most worthwhile effort to teach people to recognise and avoid sociopaths. (Or psychopaths, as I prefer.)

Over at my blog – the top two inches – I have been thinking and writing about something that psychopaths invariably do to deflect things away from themselves and onto others.

Perhaps you’ve encountered it: the psychopath does something wrong, but the moment attention is drawn to this he (usually it’s he) magically causes you to feel bad.

Here are a few examples:
1. The wifebeater says: “Why are you making me do this!?”
Consequently she may think: “It’s true, I shouldn’t do X [usually something insignificant] because it makes him upset.” Do you see? Suddenly she’s the baddie.

2. “Shut up. At least I’m not as bad as OJ [or someone heinous]”.
In other words, You don’t appreciate me; you should be grateful, but instead you get upset about what I do. You, you, you (not me).

3. She (sometimes psychopaths are women) says: “Why are you so mad with me about this? Of all the things I’ve done before this doesn’t even make the Top 10!”
In other words, Hey, I’m actually improving; you’re the bad one for noticing that I’ve done something bad.

You get the picture. The moving stories by readers of LoveFraud cite many instances of this kind of misdirection.

The best technical term I’ve encountered for this mode of discourse favoured by the psychopath is paramoralism. It was coined by the scholar Andrew M. Lobaczewski

Here’s my definition:

A paramoralism is a psuedo-moral statement. It is stated in moral-like terms but with precisely the opposite intent and effect: to get what he wants and to bamboozle the other person into being unable to use their normal means of knowing right and wrong.

Keep an eye out for paramoralisms. Not because everyone who uses a paramoralism is a psychopath, of course. But I believe that we can develop our abilities to identify when someone is cleverly turning defence into attack in this way, and thus we can resist accepting moral blame that does not belong to us.

Let me know of any that paramoralisms that particularly strike you and I may write about them.

Good to be on board!


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Welcome Dr. Steve,

The P (as I prefer to call him — it can have so many interesting connotations beyond psychopath!) once said after having been released from a court ordered Forensic Evaluation at a local hospital: “They diagnosed me as a psychopath which means I wasn’t responsible for the things I did. If you hadn’t gone to the police in the first place, this would never have happened. Do you know some of the world’s greatest leaders were psychopaths. Churchill. Kennedy. They say there’s no cure, but I can beat this. You have to help me. Who knows what will happen if you don’t?”

Is that a paramoralism? Or is it simple stupidity? He did forget to mention leaders such as Hitler, Stalin…

ML

This is very interesting at this level of discussion.

A classic one that I experienced several times, spoken by my psycho who portrays a life of a spiritual councellor and life coach was this (spoken of course with much arrogance and attempted authority in her knowledge)”if you are saying that my behaviour is disappointing you and making you feel bad then those are your thoughts and your feelings. If you’re falling into a pit of depression it’s your fault” …. and these disappointments came from fickle planning, botched arrangements, false promises, etc that would often cost me time, money or great personal effort. Yes, paramoralism is how it is with them.

Oh yes — paramoralism. It’s like you know something is WRONG yet the excuses and reasoning behind it make sense and so it is an attempt at justifying the behavior. I read somewhere:

If you were sitting in a field and suddenly saw a man bring a boy out into the middle of the field, tie him down (without struggle) and lift a knife to stab him, then change his mind, put the knife down, untie the boy and walk away, what would you do?

Most people would freak out, call the police… etc..

But this is the story of Abraham who was told by “God” to sacrifice his son to test him.

As a story in the Bible, it has meaning, it shows faith, it shows obedience to God.

In the modern world, we would lock the guy up either in a mental ward or prison for such a thing. As soon as he said “God” told him to do it… we’d label him schizophrenic or something… right?

But as a Bible story it is a “moral” lesson… or “paramoral” as it were.

Also, my ex stole my roommate’s credit card and banged it out. Totally WRONG. However a few weeks before that, my ex had given me 5,000 and we had a fight and I told him I was not going to give him his money back because he had put me through so much for 3 years.

His rationale was that he gave me everything – his heart and soul and gifts and time and attention and I gave him nothing.

In both instances, paramoralism is in effect. On my part for refusing to give him his money and on his part for taking my roommate’s credit card after I had agreed to give him the money back.

It’s like a wrong action in turn causes a wrong reaction which in turn causes another wrong action…. it’s a cycle.

“I only did this because you did that and you only did that because I did this or that…. you see?”

“It’s two wrongs don’t make a right”… but paramoralism… flips that and says you wronged me and so I wronged you…. or something like that…

My ex lied a lot to me… and his excuse was “If you made it easier to communicate with you instead of blowing up in anger all the time, I would not have had to lie.”

Makes perfect sense right? But my reply is… “If the truths you were telling didn’t involve lost jobs, crashed cars, being accused of stealing, I would not have gotten so angry.”

I did have a right to be angry about those things; however, I
did not have a right to be cruel and degrading and make him feel worse about himself.

Nothing can justify the insane behaviors — the stealing gets justified in some people’s minds because they feel … well I was working hard for that person and he wasn’t paying me what my time was worth… so he was stealing my time… so I stole some extra cash to make up for it…

It gets so tangles and crazy… you can’t see any morals in any of it anymore.

notquitebroken

I looked upon my ex’s paramoralism as MASSIVE rationalization. There was a believable reason and excuse for every lie and for every single truth as well. He didn’t distinguish any difference. At one point during the winddown of our relationship, I asked him why he lied to all these women. His sincere answer was that people shouldn’t ask him questions if they didn’t want him to lie to them. He said that people should just accept what he said at face value because it wasn’t really a lie until they figured out it was. My mind is still boggling over that one.

Benzthere

I always just considered it blame shifting. No matter his trouble, it would always be my fault. I have many examples, but here’s one. I refused to pay him for hours of work he submitted. His stance, “Woe unto him . . . that useth his neighbor’s service without wages . . .” I had asked him to recalculate his hours because he’d verifiably padded his hours and also charged me for time he worked on his own equipment, which he would not address or admit.

Notquitebroken : hahahahahahaha … that has to be the winning statement … “people shouldn’t ask questions if they didn’t want him to lie…” and to have the blatant audacity to even say it !!

The comments here all have a common thread … self-justification, massive rationalisation and the infuriating thing is that every one of them has the ability to construct their words in such a way that WE stop and and think, “well, maybe he/she does have a point” and THAT off-balance mental state keeps us wondering, questioning, self-doubting .. and that is the intention … to purposely keep us off balance lest we see and reveal the truth .. which all of us here on Lovefraud have now done … finally seen the truth.

In addition to this “paramoral” explanation, there is an excellent piece in the blog archives titled Optical Illusions: Autostereograms and Sociopaths

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2007/05/20/optical-illusions-autostereograms-and-sociopaths/

These two explanations of the sociopathic mind demonstrate clearly how they weave a web of lies and deceit as they play the game. The amazing thing is that they really do have the ability to construct, rebuild and alter their stories with more lies yet remain believable in what they say … and that leaves US scratching our heads saying “huh?? Was I so wrong ?because he/she sounds so right” …

And so, their intentional undermining of our ‘self’ eats away at our psyche and our emotions like a cancer. We doubt ourselves, our heritage, our education, OUR MORALS and our own common sense!!

The most infuriating thing is that once we have had the courage to walk away we see them continuing their lives, duping everyone in sight, conning the world with their falsities and we OFTEN ask ourselves, “Is it really him/her that is crazy, or is it ME????” Have each and every one of us not questioned ourselves and even since joining this site have we not ALL looked at ourselves and thought that maybe WE are the psycho’s? I know I have.

Sociopaths live in the twilight zone and drag us into it. Then leave us questioning our own perceptions of “normality”. Reaching a level of understanding and acceptance that THEY are the abnormal ones is the hardest part for us mentally because they are so damn good at the con, or mind-f*#k, if you’ll pardon the phrase.

apt/mgr

I’ve read where if you question your own sanity, that you are sane. The ones who don’t should. The con man in my life did such a number on my mind that he would walk away and I would wonder what he just said and I would ask him later and he would deny it all. He would say and do things to totally undermine my thinking to make it look like he’s an innocent.

I was behind him at a stop sign. The next day I mentioned it to him. He, very vehemently denied it and said it wasn’t him. I just looked at him and said it was. It was his vehicle, it was him driving. He kept denying it. That’s just one of many, but it caused me to question everything he says. What a waste of precious time to go through life lying about the simplest of things. I’ve found when they hesitate before answering they are usually formulating an answer and it will probably be a good one. They do it in such a way, that it could or couldn’t be true. If they will lie about something very simple, there’s every reason to believe they will lie about anything and everything. The sad part in my case, is that he is very likable. He comes in a nice package, but that’s where it stops. I think the real him, though is the mean, nasty man. The man I saw the most was the conniving one, who sets out to seduce. Once you peel away the layers, it ends up being fluff and stuff, with very little substance. I have to wonder what they draw on when they really need strength or do they just keep looking for another sucker.

This man in question is always hinting about money. I think he figured it worked before so maybe it will work again. Once I got the most of my money back, I’ve vowed that was it. Before he paid me back, he went so far as to suggest we could exchange the money for sex. That told me he most likely conducts the rest of his life that way and if he does there’s no reason for me to stick around. He kept talking about me questioning his integrity. I said he must not have had any to do to me what he did.

It amazes me that they just don’t get it. They hit rock bottom and just look for someone to stand on to climb back out. It’s very frustrating dealing with these kinds of people who think the world revolves around them. They make their own messes, but think someone should rush to their aid. I’ll never get it. I’ve found they mimic the ones they are around. Like chameleons. They can be whomever, and whatever the occasion calls for. Phonies. Playacting their way through life, preying on unsuspecting ones. Now that I know the difference, it’s easy to pick them out in the news. And just because a man is refined and sophisticated, doesn’t mean he has morals and integrity. We really have to read the whole book before we buy it. I’m so cautious anymore, I’ll probably go it alone the rest of my life, just to avoid having my head messed with again. I would just keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I keep saying how glad I am for this site. I wonder if I would have had this info years ago, could I have recognized what was happening or do we have to go through it to understand. I just know that I’m much older and so much wiser. I intend to guard what is mine. If I give any of me away again, it will be at my discretion and not through manipulation of my resources. At least we here have lived to tell our story. The sad part is about the ones who didn’t live to tell theirs.

One of the hardest things about finding any examples of paramoralism in my experience is that I always seemed to be compromised. Not just the “how could I have been so stupid?” kind of thing. More that I somehow was right in the middle of it.

Like the time that I told him, when he came back from sleeping at his ex-girlfriend’s house because he “didn’t have anywhere else to stay” when he was doing business in New York, that I don’t sleep with people who are sleeping with other people. He made an impatient face, told me not to be ridiculous and he couldn’t tolerate people who whine and that “modern” women weren’t possessive, and then walked into my bedroom, took his clothes off, and told me to come to bed.

What did I do? I got into bed. I’d been crying about this for days, and feeling hopeless and terrible. Looking back at it, I can’t believe I was so broken down — and this was in the first few months of a five-year “relationship.” I just wanted to stop feeling so awful, and after all, he was home.

Five years later, as I was throwing him out because he’d developed a full-blown relationship with a woman in the next town, he told me that I didn’t understand how much prestige he’d given up by being with me. (I’m considerably older than him.) And how much he resented the professional help I’d given him, because it made him look like an idiot. And how cruel I was being to him because he didn’t have any money or place to go (both untrue). And how I’d never really cared what he wanted. The last thing he said to me, as he walked out the door, in a plaintive little-boy voice was “But you said you loved me.”

That last bit was so discombobulating that it took me months to work it out. Why would he have said that? Not, thanks for all the money and sorry for the grief I’ve caused you. Not, good-bye and have a good life. Not even, I’m glad to get dump you, you old bag, and move on to a fresh victim who still thinks I’m a nice guy.

When I told him I loved him, he used to sigh or make fun of me. As though it were a sign of weakness. In fact, in the beginning when I cried about something he’d done, he would say in a haughty voice, “Weakness is unattractive.”

I finally, sometime in my recovery process, started saying “But you said you loved me” in different foreign accents. Stiff-upper-lip BBC-style British. Musical and passionate Spanish. Tough and disciplined German. The best one was French. I used to walk around my house, talking like Pepe Le Peu, pouting and fluttering my eyelashes, and then draping myself over the furniture like a heroine in a romantic novel waiting to be delivered from her corsets and the cruel bank manager who was foreclosing on the house.

It cracked me up, but it also helped me grasp finally what a passive-aggressive guilt-mongerer he was. Not that much different than my own worst behaviors as a raving codependent. I was a bad, bad girl for not rescuing him, not taking care of his feelings, not thinking about his needs.

The thing that was different about him is that he’d taken the gloves off. As a raving codependent, I at least wanted a win-win solution. I’d take care of him if he’d take care of me. In his world, he’d take care of him and I’d take care of him. And anything short of that was cause for him to start character-assassinating me.

I used to give myself a hard time for being so willing to absorb his comments, to believe the worst about myself. But since then, I’ve read a bit about emotional abuse, and how it can progressively break down a person’s sense of self. I hope that this topic comes up for discussion here, if it hasn’t already. So much of this healing process, for me at least, has been discovering a deep center in myself that is permanent, not vulnerable, and that I can trust to know what is right for me.

Paramoralism, as it’s defined here, is a kind a rhetorical device. I can imagine it being used by an unscrupulous salesperson, a college debater, or a clever PR person (my profession). But the purpose of the device is something very similar to “poisoning the well,” which is to neutralize another person’s words by discrediting him personally. (The old saw about “when did you stop beating your wife?” is a example of that. “You don’t really believe that” is another.) Except the person who is being discredited is you. And you’re being discredited with yourself.

Creepy, huh? Which is why the first time anyone makes me feel bad about myself or even question myself, I say, “I’ll need to think about that,” and then go think about it in private. Sometimes negative feedback is useful, and sometimes it’s not. But people who offer their opinions about me, without my permission, are people who don’t respect boundaries. Or people who think they’re better than me. Or people who really don’t care how I feel, as long as they can make themselves feel good.

Not my kind of people. Not anymore.

Espressogirl

The above examples are very real to me.

After 15 years of “paramoralism”, (good word!) my husband informed me that everything bad he ever did was my fault. I was the reason he did the things he did, and if there was any ill effect it was because I caused it. I actually questioned him where such thoughts came from? He told me I shouldn’t think and should not talk and didn’t know anything! That about covers it, doesn’t it.

When we divorced he told me he was going to prove me unfit in court! Based upon nothing. So, he turned the courtroom into his personal circus performance and enjoyed the effects he created using our children as “proof”.

It all backfired on him, and he blamed me for causing his pain of loss but never once admitted to anything. My attorney’s comment; “this one is spooky”.

Ox Drover

Paramoralism! Great Word! Thanks, I will add that one to my vocabulary today!

My son, a P incarcerated for murder (cold blooded, pre-planned for revenge) had pretended to be “remorseful” and would pontificate in long letters discussing moral principles that made him sound like a PhD therapist…while of course, not believing a single word of it.

Recently, after a failed attempt by him to infiltrate another P-ex Con friend of his into our family for the purpose of killing at least me, and probably his grandmother (my mother) and his biological brother, and definitely his adopted brother, for the purpose of securing his “inheritence” and after the plot was discovered and his Trojan Horse P went to jail and then prison for his part in this “plot” along with my other son’s wife, who was having an affair with this TH-P, my P-son in prison wrote to a minister friend of ours to whine that we were treating him in an UN-Christian way because we would not give him the “unconditional love” that we were required to give him as Christians. Therefore we were hypocrits and UN-Christian to him. He just couldn’t understand why we would be so mean to him. If the minister had not known the truth of the matter, he might have had some empathy for my son. Fortunately, he did know the truth.

When I look back at the paramoralisms that he has pulled over on me, I cringe in humiliation at my own vulnerability to such obvious fraud. Never more, quoth the raven!

apt/mgr

The one I heard that got me, was when the truth finally came out and I didn’t just kiss and make up, I was asked, “what kind of Christian was I?” Like because I choose to be a Christian, that means that I’m to have no feelings and should just overlook abuse of any kind. Why should there be a separate set of rules for me? He calls himself a Christian too. I admit I did carry guilt around for sometime, because I just couldn’t get back that mushy feeling. Something died in me when my husband finally put a name to his anger, but I think he figured because I am a Christian, that we should just go on as before, but he just couldn’t understand that we were just playing house. It wasn’t real. I have chosen to forgive him, but I’ve learned from study and talking, that forgiveness is as much for me as for him and just because I forgive, doesn’t mean that things go back as before. It just means that I don’t choose to seek vengeance and do likewise to him. I’ve found that love can be killed. Love is to be nurtured and if it’s abused and neglected it does wane. The romantic love. I can still and do love his soul, but as far as being in love, that’s gone. Lots of suggestions surround being in love as opposed as to being out of love. But we all know what it means. When we commit our hearts to someone and they take it all for granted, we just quit. It’s different with our children, because there are blood ties. Even without love, I’m still a human being with feelings, whether I’m a Christian or not. When they don’t treat others the same, says the vendetta was towards me. I didn’t fulfill his expectations. Not my fault. He didn’t hold up the cue cards and I didn’t know my part. I tried to do what came naturally, but naturally I didn’t do it right.

Espressogirl

My ex husband hid behind that Christian plea all the while he was actively injuring his family. It was a front to keep up appearances with my family and friends.

He was basically atheist, refusing to go to my (Christian) church – the one we were married in, all our children were baptized in and where I was an active member for over 20 years. But he went with his not-so-secret girlfriend to hers, poured money in the plate and acted very pious with her. It was a whole different personality.

My Pastor called me one day for a meeting – I was so thrilled he did that! He questioned me about my beliefs – I told him how I felt and it was wonderful he was interested. I guess I passed the test because he told me why he called me in. My husband and his girlfriend had gone to a meeting at my church, where he emotionally announced to the group how he was suffering from some non-christian things I was doing. It was a calculated attempt to upset with lies.

When my pastor told me what he had said, I almost didn’t believe him. He asked me, “why do you think he would say those things? We all know you and we don’t know him!”
I really didn’t have an answer – this was the first time I had heard of my husband doing something like this, why had he not complained to me himself? And, I wondered who the woman was. (Found out later). He had been trying to create antagonism against me in my own church.

When we divorced he tried to use his “religious” life as a reason he was a better parent and even mentioned the church meeting where “everyone agreed” how bad I was. It was so confusing that people actually laughed and he smiled as if he were on stage. It was amazing. After it was over he dropped the girlfriend (after 7 years) and went on to more criminal pursuits.

I saw that girlfriend a couple years later where she worked. She called my name and said, “No hard feelings”.

I thank God for this site everyday. I haven’t written much cause I get too angry and don’t want to write how I’m finally feeling ok and healing just to have another day come along where I’m feeling so weakl…then I feel like the farse. I realize though, it is 3 steps ahead, two steps back..at least for me. I am coming along. Almost everyday for the last year I’ve been reading everyone’s story and, like everyone else i’m sure, I think we were dating the same man until I read about a specific detail… like location or something and think…oh..can’t be him. I get angry at myself for missing him. He ripped me open like a vulture tearing through my soul…feeding…feeding…and after a year and a half of my wasting soul… blamed me for eating too much. Of course…how could I have let him eat so much? He cheated on me (many times i found out) because (his excuse)I had a male freind who he thought I was cheating on him with, took money from me cause he elicited my pity so well, gave me an STD which has killed any of my future partner thoughts, tried to charge me with assault after “he” came after me..I struck him to get him away..he calls 911…a 6 foot 4 well built male! And still…still after all of this past year of what I call ‘chaotic alienish abduction’ I still miss that SOB. I call him a chocolate covered peice of sh**. Definately a vicious wolf who uses his wooley clothing so so well. I have thought so so much about what it is I miss…the intense attention, the laughter, the intimate ecstacy he was so good at…then I finally get to a point where I realized…I can give this to myself. How come I have thought he was the only one on the planet that could make me that happy? Because I never made myself that happy!
I have alot more ‘good’ days now…days where I remember myself, remember my soul, remember that I am sane, I am pure, I am beautiful, I have a great career, wonderful freinds and family.
Maybe this is their purpose on this planet…cutting the soul so deep to let the rest of our soul poor back into the lacerations even stronger. I think we probably all feel like we know ourselves now…really well, and will never allow evil weapons and firearms in our hearts or even close to it. We’ll know purity and appreciate all our planet/universe has to teach us and be a light for others to gain strength. That’s what all of you have done for me. I can’t thank you all enough for writing your stories. So many times i have been just about to call him and I think..wait…gotta go to lovefraud first.
I’m probably going to change my name to wiserandhealing.

alohatraveler

To Wiserandhealing, :o)

I support a new name. I have been wondering if there were other people that visit regulary but don’t comment. Thanks for answering that question for me.

I can relate to that pull to miss the Sociopath and I had that too but it did pass. It started to pass about the time that I found this site. When I made my trip to Maui and I had the surprising impulse to call the Bad Man, I signed on to LoveFraud and that pulled me through.

Just like you, I wonder all the time if people are talking about the same man but my ex is 6 foot so he must be the shorter brother. I wonder often is his ex-wife is posting here. I wish I knew her story but I think I do know it without even hearing it.

Visiting this site has been so healing and I was just thinking tonight as I was reading comments how some of the people that post are sounding …. better! Just by being here, we are getting better. And also, I have gotten so much explanation here for what happened… even the smallest moments have been explained as I read the Blogs or the comments. I am thinking specifically of the “missing him” dilemna. Somewhere on here I read about the Sociopath has the ability to create an intense feeling of intimacy in a very short period of time. I describe my first two weeks with this man as the happiest time of my life. It took me so long to let go of that. I wondered if I would ever feel that again. Now, I am not sure if I want to feel that. I know it was fake. It’s like a really big sugar rush followed by a CRASH! This is not the way it’s supposed to be.

It’s late and I think I am making typos. Still, thank you for your post. You are in the right place.

Aloha… E.R.

Fran

I think I was married to a sociopath for almost ten years. Once I finally got up the courage to leave him, he sent me letters pleading me to come back. The emotions in these letters fluctuated greatly…hate, love, remorse…but there was always the underlying message in them, that I was the bad guy….I was screwing him over. Here is exerpt from one of the letters….
“I can’t control any of this but it still bothers me. I will not agree with anything if you try to screw me. You are bad, you are not trustworthy. Look in the mirror and you will realize that you are all alone. You will be alone in ten years. It’s like you are having your period every week. Please stop and rest. You are under a lot of pressure. Use your common sense. I still love you and worry about you. I am your friend!!! Trust me! I am here to help you, your family and the kids….”

Isn’t he a great guy?!?! He still loves me and is my friend even though I am so horrible…lucky me.

Here’s one.

Once when I was really desperate about his claim that I was simply unlovable for a whole slew of reasons, I said to him, “Some really amazing people have loved me.” He knew my history, and he knew that it was true.

He thought a moment, and then said, “When was the last time anyone fell in love with you?”

I had left a five-year relationship to be with him. We had been together for almost five years. I sputtered and said, “Almost ten years.”

“Well,” he shrugged, as though it should have been obvious. “You were younger then.”

I was going through menopause. He was younger than me. It was true that I was changing as a woman. But he had taken these circumstances and turned them into a horrible characterization of me. And one I couldn’t really refute. Here I was, loving a man who didn’t love me.

But the comment about “bamboozling the other person into being unable to use their normal means of knowing right and wrong” really makes me think. It wasn’t just that I had trouble knowing what was right for me. I did things when I was with him that were entirely contrary to my values and character. Things that hurt people I cared about, and can’t undo.

Looking at this has been one the hardest parts of recovery. When I argued, he seemed so logical and right. And he would characterize my way of doing things as self-defeating or naive or just plain stupid. Those other people, he’d say, were leaches on my life. Or they would take my kindness or generosity, and it wouldn’t change a thing. Or I was enabling them to hurt me in some way. So the best thing I could do would be to cut them off, take care of myself (and him, of course), and forget about it.

And ultimately I would give in, because I wasn’t sure if he wasn’t right. And besides, pleasing him would at least win me some approval and affection, however fleeting.

Isn’t that just the short course in how we isolate ourselves with the abuser? Fortunately, I’m past the stage of wanting to bang my head against the wall, or buy a rifle and hunt him down. (Well, mostly. But fortunately, according to my therapist, homicidal tendencies are okay, as long as we don’t do anything about them.)

The other thing that’s so clear in all the things he said about other people were that it reflected not only the way he operated in the world, but also what he was to me. A leach, someone who would take without appreciation or thanks, someone who used what I gave him to hurt me.

It was a very good day in my life when I realized I was “paying for pain.” It took a very long time to get there, and no question he did everything in his power to keep me from realizing that.

I’m just relieved that my critical judgment finally did resurrect itself. By that time, it really felt like it had come to “live or die.” And I wasn’t even sure that I wanted to live, but I finally decided I did, and that was the first step in recovering my sense of right and wrong. Starting the simple idea that if something, or someone was causing me continual pain, I needed to get him out of my life. As my son would say, “Welcome to duhs-ville.”

apt/mgr

As I was going through the giving times of first my husband, then this male friend, who thought he was my rescuer, I figured I could have the same liberties with them that they took with me. But as I read the other stories here, I’m finding my own plight. We, none of us, had any freedom. Our opinions didn’t matter. As long as the money held out and we could continue to supply their needs, so what. And may the woman with the most money win.

I’ve waited for my turn and apparently it went to someone else. While trying to figure if I had any place in my husband’s life, this friend thought he was my helper. I have never figured how he helped me. Other than to push me to independence. It was at this time that I lent him money, because I trusted him. I am ashamed to say that I even maxed out credit cards for him, and I still trusted him, even though he wasn’t helping me pay off the bills. I wasn’t seeing what he was doing. Had I passed this to someone else, they could have seen. I was too close to the situation to see clearly. He was fleecing me and abusing me in the process. He would flit in and out of my life. He would run in to see me, and stay all of five minutes, because he had so much work to do. I finally told him even the President takes time for friends. I didn’t know what he was doing. I was too enamored to see him for what he was.

At this time, I had fallen and ripped up my shoulder. Rotator cuff, the works. I’ve been working two jobs for the last 10+ years and I continued to work all this time, with one arm. My jobs are physical so it was very taxing. He made no move to help me with the money that he owed me. I had to keep working to try and preserve my credit and credibility. Neither he nor my husband cared. I guess they figured as long as I was stupid enough to do it, go me. Finally the coin finally dropped, and I started to see both of them for what they really are. They aren’t real men. They are content to let the woman do all the work and they reap the benefits. Far be it from them to disrupt their life and plans to help me.

That’s when I started to formulate my own plans. I knew there was no place for me and I had been duped. I was so let down, to think that I didn’t see this coming and somehow I was undeserving of being loved. Only used. That’s when I started going behind the scenes and what I found out only confirmed what I suspected and maybe always knew, but didn’t want to admit it. I wanted to think that someone cared, but I finally admitted that I paid for a friendship and marriage. I’m now alone. I had to file bankruptcy because I couldn’t keep up the payments anymore. I got a small part of the money back, but the trust was gone. I can’t get it back. I try, but it’s not there anymore. I sometimes mourn for the woman I was whose innocence was taken without her permission. Then I think of the precious little ones, who have no one to protect them and they are at the mercy of their parents or whomever is in charge. I, at least, am in control now. I will not put myself at the mercy of a mere man. I’m finding that most men don’t want to get involved with an independent woman, because they are up to no good and she will figure them out. They want someone who is needy and clingy, for a time, so they can do their number then they are off and running, looking for the next victim.

I know I can’t live with regrets. I could why and what if this to death, but I’ve been learning to accept the unacceptable and know that I didn’t cause this. I don’t go around manipulating people and using them. I can sleep at night free of remorse. I’ve learned about obsessive thinking and that was keeping me awake at night. They worm their way into our minds and it’s an act of self control to get them out. I think, as humans, we don’t want to believe that someone could be so cold and calculating, and especially to us. We gave our love and trust so freely. How could they do this to us? But they did, and now it’s up to us to pick up the pieces and move on. At least I don’t feel quite as badly as I use to, knowing that I’m not alone. I can’t tell my story to just anyone, because they think I should have known better. I tell them to meet me at the Judgment. They will see what God sees and I claim Him as my witness. The Bible says He doesn’t lie. That’s my only defense. I now am as free as the manipulators think they are. They no longer have any power over me. I’ve taken it back and can see them for what they are. Someday their pride will cause them to stumble. They will have to stand at the brink of death and come to terms with the way they lived their life as will I. And I’m glad I’m me.

alohatraveler

To Khatalyst,

Oh my goodness… how I do relate to you!

I was afraid to say it before because I never ever felt like I wanted to kill someone but with the Bad Man… I remember one day, I suddenly understood how a woman could snap and kill a man that was abusing her.

Being with an abusive partner that is taking you apart emotionally is like being eaten alive by a vulture… pecking pecking pecking away at you until you can envision yourself squeezing the life out of their neck. It is so awful to have ever even had that feeling. That is so not me.

During my time with this man, I remained so “ZEN” about the abuse. I didn’t cry a lot. And only twice did I call him any names even though I could write a very long list of the names he called me in writing countless times. Character assassination!

When I did reach my limit a few times on the abusive emails, or bizarre behavior, and called him a name… a GIANT spotlight appeared lighting all around me while a little teeny tiny idy-bidy pin prick of light was all he would allow on his MASSIVE amounts of abuse…. of course… I mean in his eyes. He barely acknowledged his abuse and called me “violent” and “psycho” and “out of control.” He used his Pastor talk on me saying, “Each person must take responsibility for their own actions and not blame the other person.” (he was referring to the ONE time that I called him an A-hole.) I remember I was so confused that I called mY Dad and repeated the whole thing about taking responsibility for ones own actions and my Dad said, “If a person punched you 100 times and you finally punch them back, that person has to take responsibility for how far theY PUSHED you.” RIGHT!!!!!!!!!! I knew this inside but somehow I let the Bad Man talk me out of all my good sense. How did he do that?! Never mind. I know the answer now.

And you know what else, in the very beginning of the relationship when he started saying that it was inappropriate for me to reach out to others and talk about our problems and that we should be able to “process” by ourselves… a little voice inside me started saying over and over.. “isolate the victim, isolate the victim.” That voice was ME! But I ignored MYSELF! ARGH… I will never do that again!

Time for bed. I can’t see straight.

Aloha… E.R.

A favorite one the victims of cyberpaths on our site is for the cyberpath to say:

I’ve moved on, so should you.

We tell victims the emotional & mental rape they experience from these cyberpaths is a static event. And will remain in their psyche for a long time while they heal.

“move on” sounds like a very moral statement and makes the victim feel bad for feeling hurt! Definitely a statement made in hell.

Dr.Steve!!! So happy to see you HERE! (Did you by any chance follow the breadcrumbs that *I* left to help you find lovefraud?) Regardless how it has happened… it is VERY Excellent to have you here!!!
— aka: terraflora!

apt/mgr

Dr. Steve,
I learned that the hard way. It took me being on the other side, to ask the question, “how did my lending him money,help me?” Another duh moment. I just shake my head at what I did, because I was needy. I thought I needed fulfillment as a woman, only to find out I was fulfilled. What could a man do that I couldn’t do for myself? He took my broken heart and broke it even further. All this happened when my husband finally told me the truth behind all his years of anger towards me, (financial ruin, etc.,) my children all left the same year and I was down in the depths of despair. The empty nest syndrome that is real. The joke of a marriage that I gave my everything to, to find out he loves money more than he ever did me, and this man was there, ready to “help”. Talk about a messed up head. I was a puppet and he kept pulling the strings. Mainly purse strings, but he knew just how to get to me. Then when I came back from the despair and confronted him and wanted my money back, and told him that I bought his friendship, he said I offered the money. Of course he’d never admit to what he did, but I can never trust him and am learning to forgive him. He still didn’t get my sex, but he did get money. Small price to pay for maintaining my dignity. Almost lost all my integrity. I learned to play his games to let him see what he does and if he complains, I just say, “you taught me everything I know. If you don’t like my attitude you should never have given it to me.” I like me so much better now. He doesn’t and neither does my husband, but they can no longer use me to provide for them. I, too, have the option of saying, NO.

gillian

After 18 years of deception and 8 months of revelation, I finally, finally, finally! realize that everything my husband says is pure manipulation. It’s horrifying. This is a man who has deceived virtually everyone. I thought he was my very best friend. Everyone–even our closest family and friends–thought we had the best marriage, that he was a devoted family man. It was all an illusion. He’s been living a double life for more than 14 years. I am still in shock. My therapist’s eyes get bigger by the week. Come to find out, my husband’s a sexual predator and addict, has had countless flings and affairs, and was planning to leave me and our daughter for a woman he’s been having a four-year affair with. And were it not for a couple of wild flukes and the fact that I turned into a detective, he would have gotten away with it. I would have never known anything. He would have left with some bogus excuse, some “need to be alone,” some reason, some bullshit concoction, omg, it’s unbelievable (well, probably not to anyone here).

Now that I’m finally on to him, his verbal tactics are astonishing. I’m not sure if what he does is more gaslighting or paramoralizing. Probably a lot of both, often used together in varying degrees. Whatever it takes.

When–at the end of May of this year–he was trying desperately to leave (without having it look like he was the culprit), he came up with a real lulu. Earlier in the day, in an effort to provoke me to ask him to leave without him saying he wanted to or why, he admitted to long-ago sexual encounters with 3 different women. When that didn’t work, he said he never had sex with any of those women, that he was only “practicing lying.” When I got angry, he said well then he just had to leave. “Now?” I asked, stunned and terrified.

“Well I just can’t bear the pain it causes you when you don’t believe me when I’m telling the truth,” he said.

Amazing.

More recently I told him I was feeling sad, that I’d always thought I was lucky in love. I was full of grief, tearful, still crazily thinking he was the one I could go to with my deepest pain. He got instantly nasty, horns and fangs, and snarled, “Why do you want to be a victim?”

He’ll never take responsibility. Sometimes he does the mock remorseful thing, and does it really well, but that’s all manipulation too. I see it now. It’s never sincere. It seems so at the time, and I’ve often fallen for it, but not anymore.

Up until last week, I kept looking for a loophole for my husband. I’ve been reading this blog for several months now, kept thinking, yep, that’s him, but I so wanted to find a way for him to be the man I always thought he was. I couldn’t let go. He joined AA; I felt hopeful. He started to come clean; I felt hopeful. He attended an SAA meeting; I felt hopeful. But all along and in between, he’d zigzag from seeming progress back to bold-face lying, cheating, exploitation, deception. I kept hoping God would work a miracle, my husband’s not really a sociopath, he’ll 12-step his way out of it, he’ll be a new man. In a way I was conning myself. At some level I knew what I was doing, but I just was not ready to face reality and let go of the dream.

How cruel he was to perpetrate a deception like that on another. I told him I’ll never understand how anyone could ever hurt another human being like that.

His response? “I never thought you would find out.”

gillian

I want to add that my husband moved out at the end of June. He started saying some things that scared me, that made me think he was planning on hurting me, or worse. I felt I had to let him know that I had shared my fears with a friend. When I did, he got furious at me for “maligning [him] in a fictitious scenario!” Then he left. Phew!

I’m sure I could think of examples, but mostly what occurs to me was that it was never his fault. Ever. Deny Deny Deny. Although, he would frequently do things behind my back- when I’d find out about it (usually involved MY checking acct or credit cards) he’d first try to deny it altogether- I’d say that no one stole my atm card of out my purse, used it at the atm machine across the street from his job-du-jour and then put back in my purse. THEN he’d say he didn’t tell me about it because I’d bitch. Well, yah, I’m going to bitch when you take $150 out of the bank, cause checks written to pay bills to bounce, and the only purchases you can come up with for $150 is a tank of gas and a pack of smokes.

Then to punish me for confronting him for stealing from me was to steal a check from the back of my checkbook, get someone to cash it, thereby putting my account $300-400 in the hole and not come home for a day. I ended up storing my boxes of checks and checkbook at work. Eventually it was a race to the bank to cash out everything on payday- before he woke up. (sociopaths need their beauty sleep.) Then pay the bills with cash. Unfortunately, he’d convinced the teller’s at the bank that even though his name wasn’t on my account, he was allowed to cash checks. They’d give him temporary checks that he would fill out and sign my name on- right there at the counter! My account was typically in the hole come payday. “But he had to do that because I didn’t give him the money he needed.”

If denial didn’t work, it was always turned around that it was some sort of shortcoming/control-freak/manipulation on my part. (Because actually paying the bills really cramps a socio’s style- right?)

When money would get really tight, and his mother wasn’t ponying up, he’d reluctantly, petulantly get a job. But of COURSE it was a crappy job with dreadful hours, ‘idiots’ for bosses, low low low pay and would otherwise cause ME discomfort/inconvenience/punishment. Whenever he “worked” it always cost more than he earned. But that, of course, wasn’t his fault either!

It wasn’t ALWAYS my fault- but it dang sure was NEVER his fault. I later learned that he told people, his family, our atty (what sociopath doesn’t have an atty friend?), friends, whomever, that I only gave him $20/week allowance and that I couldn’t handle money and he got chintzed because of it. But he loved me anyway. Gack.

alohatraveler

This is obviously a topic we all know so much about. I think I might have an all time classic here.

The Bad Man typically had melt downs over… I can’t even remember what… and once he was on one of his cycles, he would not be able to stop for 48-72 hours. After one of these cycles, he would follow with his pretend remourse. One time, he came up with this. “When I get upset, a real women would realize that it is just because I love her so much and she would fall to her knees with joy and thankfulness at that revelation and then rush to me and F-ck away all the bad and yuck out of me.” FOR REAL.

Now, I would say that at that point, I KNEW something wasn’t right!!!

Reading Gillian and Glinda’s posts was like a stroll down memory lane.

A funny thing happened to me today. I was watching a movie on LifeTime Channel with some friends. It was called, “A Man and his Three Wives” and right at the beginning, I stated, “This is a movie about a sociopath.” Then, throughout the movie, I predicted his every move before he did it. My friends were amazed (and probably annoyed… who wants to be with someone that is narrating the whole movie?). The thing is, the writer of the movie did a disservice to viewers. They never stated that he was disordered or a Sociopath but it was SOOOO OBVIOUS!

And, I also got an email from someone that was seeming questionable recently and I recognized the pity plays and subtle manipulations…. danger… danger… delete… delete. I recognized the way he tried to appeal to my kindness and compassion and my not wanting to be hurtful to anyone. I didn’t engage… I just deleted. Buh Bye Bad-Man-Junior.

Aloha… Elise

righteous woman

I am new to the site as far as posting a story, but have been reading the blog for about a month and a half.

Brief history: I met the sociopath when I was 16, I had “daddy issues”, a mother that worked too much, etc. After 4 years, I had a child who will be 18 in may. Child support was established in the ’90s and after two years of not paying he was brought up on contempt charges. He begged for custody of his son, got a two bedroom apartment (the second bedroom got turned into a junk room, not a bedroom for my son) and swore he could raise his son. As victims, we seem to suffer endlessly from hope (it was the last thing out of Pandora’s box you know)I gave in and gave him half custody. 6-months later he was living with various women, and said he could not take care of his son as he promised. He paid me arrears for the time he was on probation from the contempt charge, but because I had given him half custody, I had no current support order, and when his probation was over, he refused to pay. I took him back to court for a new support order, and now he has been charged with contempt again.

I know, I get it loud and clear, no contact. I had blocked him from text messaging both myself and my son(who is aware his father is a sociopath), but today, he got through to us on myspace.

I feel empowered and strong, what he says and does is laughable at this point. How do we know when he is lying? when his lips are moving or he is trying to communicate with us…Now I know these sorry ass men (people) have no concept of morality, nor do they ever take responsibility for their actions (with the exception to admit they have done some wrongs but that WE – the victims, blow the situation way up, therefore, we are crazy – yes crazy for dealing with them) but, upon communicating with him, I always try to get him to see reason, do the right thing, acknowledge that he abandoned his son (the sociopath said for the last 6 years that if his son loved HIM and wanted to be with him, that his son would have to request his presence, so that the sociopath could SEE that his son loves HIM).

So, tonight turned into him begging and pleading about the court contempt charges. He attempted to coerce me telling me he missed me, missed his son, loved hanging out with us, if I would only drop this he would give up everything and be with us…Are you laughing and rolling on the floor yet..I was.

Well of course this conversation tonight turned into paramoralism. He sent me messages that I was evil, I was the devil, I turned his son against him, then it turned into this:
“Satan, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus!Spirit of confusion and discord I Rebuke you!Lord protect my son from the evil that encamps around his heart and mind”
“Satan is a liar and the author of confusion! God will deal with you for touching the innocent. I believe that”
“I pray the father will reveal himself to you and scare the hell out of you. I pray the evil, unclean spirit in you reveal himself to you”
“God knows my heart, I must reap what I sew,Oh!but so shall you my friend! GOD IS REAL You will see! He will deal with you! Not me, I give you to god and all your pain”
“Father God, I rebuke the spirit of misery in [my childs mothers] Heart, Remove it and replace it with a spirit of love! In Jesus name! Do the same for my son Father”

Yes, he prayed for me – in e-mail. (because I refused to call him, he asked me like three or four times to call)

My sons father is the child of recovering drug addicted woman who claims to be a pentecostal minister(now). She opens little rink-i-dink churches so she can get tithing’s. (Can you say tax free money?) She damned me when I wouldn’t give her money to pay her rent. When my son was 4, She invited my son and I to a Bar-b-que at her “church” and then charged me 5 bucks a plate (I refused to pay of course). She has been married 5 times, draining each man dry. She is a sociopath, and every day I fear I will discover my son also has the disorder. Some of the things he says, his rationales, frighten me in his dealings with people. But he does not have any pre-emptive signs, and so far, seems to posses appropriate affect and empathy, but I have been fooled before.

The only time my sons father goes to church is when he is pursuing a woman he wants something from. When he gets her, he stops going. He prays over his food, but he steals, lies, is promiscuous and has cast his child(ren) aside.

As we sent mail back and forth tonight, it was like he was running out of ways to manipulate me. So he dug down…or reached up to God….But I am an agnostic. See what he did there? It didn’t work, only made me smile and laugh at his futility. What he doesn’t know, is the reason for my agnostic belief is I have met only 1 out of 100 people who are not complete hypocrites, such as himself, and his mother.

It has been a while since he and I were together as a “couple”. But he keeps trying to see if my compassion for him is still there..It is just not…And reading this blog has been great for me, because I am damaged and he effected my entire life. But I am stronger, and I am almost to the point where there wont be any communication. I am planning on moving away next year, starting my own business, enrolled my son in college, and will take my first stab at leading a normal life. He only lives 4 miles from me now and drops in every now and then trying his old games. I have never known an adult life without him, but time is setting me free.

apt/mgr

righteous woman,
I would hope that you will be able to come the that place in your life where God is real to you. I spent so many years of my life looking for God in people, only to be disappointed. I’ve discovered Him for myself. He says to seek Him while He may be found. He will allow us to find Him. He just wants to know if our seeking is in earnest. It’s much easier for me to believe in Him and His Son, than to believe in people. But God doesn’t want us to rely on mere human beings. And those who are fanatical, aren’t a good representative of Christ. When you read the accounts of Christ’s character, then you look for that in others, you will be able to discern for yourself who is real. We watch the fruit of their life. The fruit is their action and how they conduct their life.

People who live a duplicitous life aren’t living for God. He is a God of order and not confusion and chaos. That is Satan. When they are going around casting out demons, they are playacting. They can’t look upon another’s heart. We can know what’s in a person’s heart by what they say and how they act, but we have to be around them to discern that. To a lot of people, they get a little bit of God and they think they are God. We are to be Christ-like and adopt His character, but we can’t become Him. I stay away from those radical individuals, who try to recreate the scriptures, and think they are God.

That’s one of the reasons it was so difficult in my own marriage. We were this Christian family to the outsiders and the people in the church, but at home it was altogether different. Nothing like you went through, but a very lonely, hopeless lifestyle. Left me with so much disappointment as far as being wife and family are concerned. I’m kind of a fixer by nature and want everyone to have their haven and happy place. I don’t like dissension, confrontation, anger, etc. I don’t have that with my children and other friends, why did I have to have it with my spouse? I ponder that question quite often, but it doesn’t bother me anymore. I know I did what I could and it’s better for my husband and God to have a right relationship than he and I. We just clash. But I will continue in my walk with God. That is truth and light and life, to me. I heard someone who said they’d rather believe and find out there is nothing than not believe and find out there is. That’s faith and I guess my faith is stronger in God than it is in people. Too bad we have to live by trial and error before we finally get it. Shouldn’t be that way, but I guess that is character building. Some just have more character than others!!

changedforever

Is this also paramoralism?
These are some of the things my ex used to tell me to make me feel so guilt and question myself about who was wrong and who was right?

“Because you’re suspecting and accusing me of sleeping around with this girl, that’s why I feel like going and do it”

“Your jealousy is making me cheat on you. It’s your fault I’m behaving this way!”

“How can you call yourself a Christian if you can’t forgive me about my infidelity?

“If you’re in my situation going to bankruptcy and I had the money I would give it to you to help and save your financial situation. So tell me who is the bad person?”

“I could have all women in the world if I want it, but I still with you. It is not enough?”

“God don’t expect us to do only good staff”

apt/mgr

I would say he’s seeking justification for what he is doing. He’s trying to turn the tables to take the heat off himself, to make you look like the guilty one. At least that was how it was in my life. Those are all excuses and not reasons. An excuse is nothing more than a covered up lie. A liar needs no accusers. The old adage, that what they accuse us of, is what they are doing.

I keep getting enlightened more and more by these posts. Are there no normal men out in our world who want to do what’s right? Even the pastors of churches are getting caught with their pants down. Literally. One pastor had an affair with a woman in his church and was able to convince her the only way to God was through having sex with him. What awful, convoluted thinking is going on in people’s minds. An idle mind and hands are definitely the devil’s workshop. If it doesn’t feel right, it definitely isn’t of God. He doesn’t do that to us.

righteous woman

Apt/Mgr:

This is a forum to support others in their quest for a healthy outlook on life, not to force others to believe in an unproven idol. Please leave your Christianity out of this. I found your response offensive and presumptuous. I was only giving an example of paramoralism. Stay on topic.

Pitanga:

Yes, that is paramoralism, I listen to the same thing from my ex. In fact, I make an honest living, but live paycheck to paycheck and am able to update furniture belongings and such as needed, therefore he doesn’t think he should have to contribute. That I am stealing from him and I am greedy. Nice huh?

findingmyselfagain

Apt/mgr – I appreciate what you had to say. This is an open forum – that means everyone can give input as to “what helped them”.

I think righteous woman in reaching out for help here – shouldnt be so closed-minded to what varied and differing methods and paths we all took to find healing and peace. We all offer help to each other here, in whatever manner we feel might be helpful – I dont see other people damning others for their personal opinions of what is comforting to them.

righteous woman

Since ALL of our opinions are so valid, here is mine: I do not believe in any religion that is used to manipulate, to where you are brainwashed to worship an unproven idol. Reminds me too much of the sociopath, and all of the the other sick manipulative people I have met in my life. In my opinion, organized religion appears as a cult, ask Jim Jones, Charles Manson, or the 20 or 30 catholic PRIESTS that use(d) religion to molest young men, and seduce women.

From what I understand, real Christians let people find their own path in faith and life, they don’t try to convert people. I am starting to feel like an Indian, living off the land, wrapped in animal skins, and some bald guy in a dress hopped off a boat and is forcing me to convert to his strange beliefs…Unbeknownst to me, the entire time, his “people” are planning on raping me, my land, my way of life, that I was quite happy with.

Sorry, but proven history, and my own experience, have fortified my belief system. I am not closed minded. I am black and white. Can it be proven? No. Blind faith. I already did that, for at least 20 years. Did I pray for years? Were my prayers answered? No. Have I watched good kind people die, while these animals that ruined my life, your lives, roam our cities as predators, sometimes killing people we love? YES

Religion is just another way for kind “Open-minded” people to be preyed on. APT/MGR got taken advantage of by a “kind” man trying to help her through her time, I am sure she met him in church, and he helped himself to all her money. This is while she was STILL with her husband.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice…..

I was just trying to share a story and it turned into the ramblings of people who, in black and white, attacked my ever so small sentence that I was agnostic. STAY ON TOPIC PEOPLE!!! This is about how we were victimized and an opportunity to learn from each other. So far, I have made one post, about an experience, and I am preached to about accepting a belief, in an unproven idol. You make me feel just as victimized as the sociopath tries to get me to feel because I won’t close a child support case.

Now, How offended do you all feel that believe in God? AAAPPPP – keep it to yourself….stay on topic. The topic of this blog is PARAMORALISM. Respect my beliefs, and in the future, I will respect yours.

Grace63

apt/mgr. I find your posts to be honest and generally enlightening. I respect where you are right now. I am not offended, nor did I see that you were trying to force your opinion down anyone’s throat. Thank you for your input.

I honor everyone’s healing path (try to). I do not condemn anyone’s belief. Whether someone believes in one God, no god, ten Gods, Christianity, Buddhism, Allah, Hinduism, or whatever…I have yet to have encountered a post here a person was trying to shove a belief down their throats. I have only heard first person accounts, which I find very safe and unthreatening.

Righteous Woman…I am sorry you seem so hurt by other people’s belief systems. Did I miss something? Because I don’t see anything like what you described in your last post:
“attacked my ever so small sentence that I was agnostic.”

What did I miss?

Grace63

My ex-the sociopath in my life always liked to say I tried to control him and that is why he had to do the things he did…that is, stole my credit card, opened up 4 accounts under my name, using my social security number etc. I remember apologies that went like this: “if you wouldn’t have done….such and such…I wouldn’t have had to do….such and such.” Or “I am sorry…but…”

When he owed me thousands of dollars…and, then I borrowed money from him, he would then want me to give the 5-10 bucks back to him immediately…within a day or two…and, I got to the point and said…”take it off the money you owe me” – he would say “you promised to pay me back, that’s not very spiritual.” He knew that I had a very strong conscience and strived to do the “right” thing.

Towards the beginning of the “end” — things got very ugly between us, and I called him on his dishonesty and lies, he began to pull up everything in my past that pointed to me being dishonest and tried to say how horrible I was, that I was just as horrible as he was….the crazy making. He wanted to tear me down. The man came close, but, I woke up just in time, and salvaged my spirit.

No longer do I have to dwell in the fear and resentment…I feel the fears and resentment…but, I don’t live there anymore! I am closer and closer to freedom and it sure feels good!

Take care all…each and everyone!
I am so glad I don’t have to deal with that crap anymore.

righteous woman

You missed that I NEVER said it was forced down my throat.

You missed that the first sentence APT/MGR wrote was that I should accept GOD, then she went into her reasons why I should accept it.

Why cant ANY of you stay on topic? The topic is PARAMORALISM. Why haven’t ONE of you said, “yes, I am very Christian, and my ex used the same tactics on me!” ??? Come on people….I wonder where you learned to deflect a topic???

Grace63

It is NOT you AGAINST the Christians…why make it into that? I posted on paramoralism…

this blog is getting to hostile and meanspirited for me…

All the best on your healing journey…

righteous woman

Grace63:

Yes,yes you did follow your post addressing me with a post on paramoralism.

I never said it was me against the Christians, to me, it seemed it was the Christians against me. My religious beliefs should have never been prodded towards Christianity by another blogger. It is rude and presumptuous.

My mother always said there are 3 things you don’t tell people what to do, or to believe; Religion, politics and how to raise their children. because it is rude and presumptuous – get it? That is exactly what I started out saying…it is very sad I have had to go to such great detail to defend the word “Agnostic”, and the fact that I was offended by someone preaching “the Good word” to me.

One thing I am very trained to do, is hold firm on a subject, not get derailed. I had to as a survival technique; this is why I address the previous post, that is actually ADDRESSED TO me, provide my opinion, to which I am also entitled, and close my post by asking for the remaining bloggers to stay on topic.

righteous woman

Grace63:

Yes,yes you did follow your post addressing me with a post on paramoralism.

I never said it was me against the Christians, to me, it seemed it was the Christians against me. My religious beliefs should have never been prodded towards Christianity by another blogger. It is rude and presumptuous.

My mother always said there are 3 things I shouldnt discuss with people on what to do, or to believe; Religion, politics and how to raise their children. because it is rude and presumptuous – get it? That is exactly what I started out saying…That I considered the rant about how APT/MGR “hopes I find God” is Rude and Presumptuous. it is very sad I have had to go to such great detail to defend the word “Agnostic”, and the fact that I was offended by someone preaching “the Good word” to me.

How is it mean spirited? Because I do not follow Christianity? I am Agnostic, not Atheist. Anyone who is not familiar with the difference,Go to dictionary.com and get up to speed. Is it recognized that the majority of the wars that this Earth has experienced have been initiated due to religious idolism. The United States is at war right now because of Ala….Our young men are dying over another countries radicalism(our government would have us believe) and the destruction that radicalism brought to our country in 2001. It is not mean spirited. It is based in harsh realities. It is not an attack on anyone, it is an eye-opener that stirs repressed anger within, because what I have said is factual, it is the truth, it is proven. It DOES shake a persons faith. But it is not meant in a mean spirit, not at all. Grace63 should reread the post from APT/MGR and have it speak at you, to you like I received it, because it was ADDRESSED to me – and as she spoke, she used the word YOU, yourself, us, we about 70 times. If she wanted to talk about herself she should have used the word ‘I’ more often.

I am not trying to sway any reader into a disbelief. Any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, can believe exactly what they wish. I will not stand in front of a store, go on TV, stand on a corner, at an airport or knock on a front door trying to coerce anyone to share my beliefs. (see how that paragraph was set up?)

One thing I am very trained to do, is hold firm on a subject, not get derailed. I had to as a survival technique; this is why I address the previous post, that is actually ADDRESSED TO me, provide my opinion, to which I am also entitled, and close my post by asking for the remaining bloggers to stay on topic. Sociopaths specialize in derailing a subject, by useing Paramoralisms, survivers learn to “out-wit” this trick until they find the strength to leave.

findingmyselfagain

I feel victimized just reading righteous woman’s posts. You make my chest feel as heavy as dealing with my sociopath. Anger, defense, accusing apt/mngr of rambling, victimizing, forcing, – somehow you yourself have turned this positive learning page into something cold and off topic. My mother always told me “when you are loving and kind, kind and loving people attract into your life. When you are angry, jealous or meanspirited, you attract that which you spew into the world.” And that doesnt even have the word God in it. Get over yourself (self-righteous woman).
Sorry to be so blunt but I’ve read just about enough of your spewing. All the best to you, I’m moving on to a healthier blog.

righteous woman

More attacks – interesting. Good luck on your long road thru recovery, I didn’t know a lack of empathy for another persons feelings and beliefs was catchy. And I am not Paramoralising – you put it in black and white.

alohatraveler

Righteous Woman,

I read all the posts. What I see is you attacking and going off topic talking about religions of the world, war, your “proven” facts, blah blah. While you might not agree with the Apt/Mgr, I find the spirit of your posts more upsetting. Honestly, I left the discussion on DDHG because several people were attacking eachother and it was unproductive. And having to constantly defend ourselves against constant attacks on our character, thoughts, intentions… well, that sounds familiar, now doesn’t it?

It sounds like you want to be heard. You don’t want anyone to talk to “You” about their beliefs and yet, I see a whole lot of yours here and all with the label “fact.”

I admit, I really do not like hearing religious stuff on here. This is not the place and I caution people who want to pray for their sociopath. If you want to pray for people, go right ahead. But let us be careful that we do not influence/misguide someone that is still with a Sociopath, and no doubt in a state of deep fog and confusion, to consider staying and praying for the “healing” of a Sociopath. This could be potentially a very dangerous idea for someone still with a Sociopath. If you are with a Sociopath, you must leave, take care of yourself, and if you have any energy left, go ahead and pray for anyone one you want but stay out of contact with the Sociopath.

I hope that we can all offer support here to eachother and that the spirit doesn’t turn sour. I also hope that we can be extra careful to be respectful to all people as I am sure that many have been through a lot of trauma already and this should be a safe haven for us all… even you, dear Righteous Woman.

To all Lovefraud readers,

This is a place of sharing and healing. Please honor that. I’m ending discussion on this topic.

Donna

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