We know only too well that by far the majority of psychopaths are men. Or at least we think we know that. Could it be that the criteria used to identify psychopaths are biased towards men? After all Hare began his work in male prison.
Think about it. While behaving and being the way the PCL-R without doubt earns one the label psychopath, this is simply a list of symptoms. It says nothing about the underlying dynamics. If psychopathy is life centered on the principle of power (as opposed to love) and if it is therefore characterised by what Liane Leedom nicely calls ‘warped empathy‘, then wouldn’t you expect there to be more or less the same number of woman as men psychopaths? And wouldn’t you expect them to come across differently?
I am beginning to wonder whether there may be two broad types of psychopathy – a ‘male’-type and a ‘female’-type. I place these in quotes because, when I think about it, men with might be thought of as ‘female’ psychopathy come to mind and we all know about women with ‘male’ psychopathy. And yet, at the risk of being un-PC, I want to maintain these descriptors for now so that the difference I think I see doesn’t disappear.
A ‘female’ psychopath would not necessarily commit crimianl/antisocial acts like her male counterpart, but she woud be as power-driven, as toxically narcissistic as a ‘male’ psychopath. The control, the manipulation, the dishonesty, the selfishness, the callousness – all these would be present, but we might not recognise them for what they are because of 1. media portrayal and 2. medical diagnosis of psychopaths. The difference would come in the gendered style of their behaviour.
In my clinical work I have come across this phenomenon. For example, a woman I now consider to be of the ‘female’-type of psychopath didn’t come close to committing a crime and yet the way she mothered her daughter, my patient, came close to destroying the child’s mind. This seems to me to be a perversion of motherhood eqivalent to the perversion of fatherhood we read about on this website.
Do readers have any comments? I’m particularly interested in any examples you might have of how ‘female’ psychopathy – if such a thing does exist – manifests itself?
OxDrover:
Allowing for the time to heal and recover is a good thing for me to be reminded of. My therapist reminded me of that on my last visit and it really had an affect. I was talking about my fear that I’ll never feel safe and will always be looking over my shoulder (my ex has come after me). She reminded me that it hasn’t been that long. It was a relief. So, you telling me that again, is good. I’m very hard on myself. That’s another thing I need to stop doing.
I give everyone else the benefit of the doubt and too many chances and too much leeway. Yet, I am brutal on myself. THAT is screwed up and going to stop. I am learning to be nice to ME and that includes saying No when I need to and taking care of myself.
When I have a really bad day, today wasn’t the worst but it was really unproductive. I have been in a constant state of high anxiety all day. So bad I’m shaking a lot of the time and didn’t get anything done on my “to do” list that I need done before Christmas. So, it’s been hard not to do the usual “critical voice” thing in my head. But, I have. It feels really awkward, but I just tell myself to breathe slowly and take it one moment at a time. That I am safe now. That I am away from him. That I have the tools to get better and that I had a trauma. “Be kind and gentle to yourself, like you would to a good friend.” and that seems to help each time.
Geminigirl: Thanks for that reference.
I can see clearly now:
here’s an exercise to help bring down anxiety when you are actually safe:
breath normally (yah, first you have to get THERE 🙂
and on the inhale tighten a muscle – doesn’t have to be a lot, then when you exhale release the muscle – real gently.
I start with my hands, so, when i release i don’t open my hands, just release the tension.
do it a second time and really focus on the easing of tension on relaease – and see if focusing on it can make it last a bit longer.
just do it a couple of times for each muscle, and do the whole of your body.
best,
one step
Thanks for that one_step 🙂
I had a tape of an exercise like that years ago when I was in college and having anxiety attacks. It really helped. I think I can remember the exercise pretty well. What you described sounds like it. I’m going to try to do that tonight. I have a real problem getting to sleep. Nighttime is the worst.
A note on the topic of this thread: Just an FYI on fictional or dramatic protrayals of real life female psychopaths, shows like Law & Order SVU, CSI and Criminal Minds regularly have some excellent examples of them. Two of them particularly this week were chilling examples of women P’s. It was interesting on one I watched tonight, it was SVU, this mother was severely mentally abusing her sons over years and told one of them to kill his younger brother and then kill himself. The pychiatrist on the show, after interviewing her said she was BPD and N. There was another one earlier this week in which Mary Steenburgen plays a psychopathic mother. She was excellent in the role too. When they took her away in handcuffs at the end I cheered.
Dear Icansee,
Expecting perfection in ourselves while giving every one else multiple “second” chances is one of the things I think most of us (former victims) have in common. We are kind and loyal to a FAULT to everyone EXCEPT ourselves, and we lack that loyalty to ourselves.
I am now expecting my friends to treat me as well as I treat them. (see my article “The Golden Rule-the silver rule”) and I am not setting up two standards of conduct, one for them and a harsher one for myself. That was very difficult for me, as I had some “computer chip” implanted somewhere in my soul that said “if you are not perfect, you are not good enough”—it is first of all, difficult to realize these programs are “running” in the back of your soul, but even when you do find the errant program, shuttin git off or removing itl. I think it is difficult to impossible to remove that program at this stage in our lives, but I DO think we can DISABLE it, but it takes continual monitoring to keep it disabled, or we will fall back into the rut of letting it become active again adn side track kour healing.
I think that just as an addict or an alcoholic has to work daily the rest of their livers to NOT allow the addiction to rear its ugly head and take over, we must also work at keeping our “computer chips” silent and disabled.
It’s odd though, I have been a very addicted smoker all my adult life, and have quit for various periods of time using all kinds of things, but I never really wanted to quit, I just felt lguilty about not quitting. This time I WANTED to quit and I DID quit and the little “habitual:” twinges of desire are NOTHING compared to the longings I had before when I would quit. I think my new found healing, my newfound taking care of myself is kicking in here and making even quitting smoking easier.
I think the taking care of ourselves, too, is like learning to ride a bicycle, at first you are wobbly and fall and skin your knees a lot, but as you get more secure in your seat it becomes easier and easier, and eventually, you can jump on a motorcycle and ride off without falling.
Practice makes perfect, and we need to practice taking care of ourselves—one day at a time. Set less high standards of acheivement and performance and realize that if all the Xmas shopping or the last batch of cookies doesn’t get made–SO WHAT? the world will NOT end! I have a very laxidasical attitude now about a lot of things….oh, well, it didn’t get done today, it will wait til ltomorrow or the next day, or teh next. The ONLY thing I take seriously is medical care or vet care for my animals, every thing else will wait. Life is no longer a series of “emergencies” or “I shoulds” or “I have tos” it just IS. The fact that I have no little children at home and am retired DOES HELP I admit, but my point is that few things that we push ourselves to get done are REALLY all that important.
I like Law and Order SUV but don’t watch it very often, about all I do watch is 20/20 or Dateline and occasionally the national news and local news. I don’t have cable so there’s not much on TV anyway so I maybe watch 3 hours a week. This new show “The Good Wife” is a great show though, check it out. Her husband is a crooked politician in prison and she is a junior associate lawyer in a high power firm, pretty realistic I think. Lots of moral issues in the show. I read more than watch media.
By removing myself from the toxic people I have less stress in my life and the “problems” that come up, a broken car, or a broken dish, aren’t very emotionally upsetting, they just ARE and you deal with them….so the stress level gets pretty low and that’s a good thing. Health and emotions level out and improve all the way around. You become more sensitive to changes though, because you are not always “jacked up” on adrenaline and other stress hormones. Sleep improves, and so on.
Taking care of ourselves becomes first priority, and the only stressors available are inside ourselves, and if we quiet them, then life is really GOOD! Peaceful, calm, and enjoyable. You have the presence of mind to notice the little joys in life, the little nice things that if you are stressed out you couldn’t even see. Life is Good, God is Good and I am actually happy!
Hi everyone,
In October, my niece called me after a long period of no contact (about a year) to say that her father had kicked her out suddenly and she needed a place to crash. She was very upset so I left the grilling about what happened for later (can you spot the first mistake?) No problem. of course! I have a big spare room. why not.
My background with her is that she is the 20 year old daughter of the sister my mother told me I imagined but was actually taken into care. She herself has been in and out of care apparently due to the abuse of her mother I met her a couple of years ago and became very fond of the sweet intelligent woman she came across as.
Her then Boyfriend dropped her off and the next day helped her collect some clothes from her fathers. On the way back they went to the supermarket and bought hundreds of pounds worth of groceries ‘for me’ more food than I could possibly eat before it went off all expensive brands and which I did not ask for.I found it very uncomfortable, not least because I was under the impression she had no money and I dont have much myself so it seemed overly extravagant, i’d rather of had the money for the phone bill.
The very next day she dumped the boyfriend because her ex was in town (oh and because he was jealous and controlling) and the ex boyfriend was the love of her life. and I actually listened to her repeating almost word for word what I had said(unfortunately) in a conversation about a friend I care deeply for the night before.
Within a I think couple of days a drama was created where the new ex was harassing her and stalking her at work. She displayed utter contempt for the person she had been all fluffy with a few days before. I was very supportive, I even suggested her asking here for advice, but using my 20/20 retro vision (so usful – not) I realise I saw no actual evidence of harrassment although he did come to the house upset (not aggressive)and call. Maybe there was more to it, but with all of the subsequent behaviours…I cant be sure.
I am still second guessing myself and telling myself she’s a lovely intelligent woman.
we went to the pub to meet with my friend and I saw the sweet little girl voice, victim of a cruel father and crazy boyfriend act dropped and a full blown predatory woman appear. (helllloooooo! Blue!!)
I am feeling drained emotionally …but not quite there with the penny dropping.jeeze.
she returns from work talking about how much she has the hots for a male colleague and that another male colleague has agreed to give her lifts to and from work (eh?but werent you both ‘in love’ with your ex ex and being stalked a few days ago plus the tragedy of the rejection by your father? fast recovery – okay so now my spidey senses are tingling (BUT I DONT ACT!)
I talk to her about her belongings she left at her dad’s and give her a load of property rental numbers and web addresses and storage hire info in a cheery positive way. She wont give me any information about her father (okay so now I’m there almost there) spends half a day half arsedly looking for a flat but they’re all too far, too small too expensive. (the girl is actually on £17,000 so I think there is something, somewhere she could afford)
I am informed that her father’s wife has called her to say that he has given her a week to get her stuff or it’s going to the dump.Much weeping ensues.I suggest I speak with them and try to organise something or come to a compromise. She freaks out and refuses to give me any contact info – you see I dont understand ‘what he’s like’. Spend the next few days pretending to creep around on eggshells with sad face and puppy dog eyes around her ‘mean old aunt’.
she eventually picked her stuff up and ot it into storage under duress and I still have not been able to make contact with her dad.
any attempts to get her to find a flat since have been met with the same old crap.
She started to make a big deal about the family cat (my son’s cat) and how much it loved her, she kept making a point of saying that it had slept with her all night, when it had infact been on my sons bed as usual. (our beautiful cat died over Christmas – no connection.)
she asks intrusive and probing questions. She grills me about my wealthy uncle because she wants to get to know her family, but shows no interest in my very lovely but poor younger sister.
she seems void of emotional understanding, oblivious to others feelings and boundaries and has a huge sense of entitlement – getting enraged at having to pay tax on her salary (like everyone else) because its so unfair!
She begins to spread her possessions all over the house and when I tell her ‘this isnt working for me’ – I get the sad face again.
I had to ask her twice for house-keeping and she precedes each pay day with woeful tales of her debts(that are always someone elses fault, and still leave her plenty for lots of new high healed shoes) to which I say it must be hard but I would like housekeeping just the same.
I notice she takes things I say and threads them into her own stories, she drops casual statements about disliking things she knows I like.
At Christmas she changed her persona many times in one day – sweet puppy sychophant to my wealthy female friend, more weird flirting with my male friend and topped it off with an aggressive tirade at the dinner table about teenage mothers being idiots and losers – followed by scared sad routine after having it pointed out to her that just such a ‘loser’ was putting her up.
I get the distinct feeling that she will not go unless I kick her out so that she can use me in her next story of victimhood.
okay so I think that’s more than enough flags waving here.
I feel stupid for letting her in in the first place, but a couple of days didnt seem like a problem, and she arrived in a sweet mild mannered in need of assistance package it didnt last long. I am angry at myself for allowing things to get months down the line butnot going to let this set me back, but I need to do something.
I need to get her out. This I know. I have my son here so I need it to be as smooth as possible.
Advice / coaching please.
I also wish I’d mentioned this sooner. I should have.
Blue:
I suggest taking on the “NIKE’ slogan and “JUST DO IT”.
Go to the hardware store and purchase new locks first….and tell her that the help you offered was a night or two of “Crashing’ …..and not a room mate.
Your an independant woman and it’s impeding on your life to have her there……
Or have a friend arrive and bring suitcases with them…..and just say you need the guest room and she needs to find another place to crash…..you have a house guest for a bit.
It’ll be hard, but take a deep breath, lock up your valuables and just DO IT!
One of the most empowering moments for me since the S was when I took in a border and I made my rules clear….CLEAR….in my ad and again in person….
This person had no regard for my house rules and pretended he wasn’t a drinker or drug usere……and hid it in hs room.
One day afte about a month….I told him, i didn’t appreciate him eating my kids food and then WASTING it….(he;d leave bagels in the toaster) along with i wanted NO alcohol in the house……So…he drank into oblivion in his room until the stench off his body penetrated the hallway and living room.
He cried and assured me it would NEVER happen again….I love living here yadayadayada…..blah, blah…..3 days later I get a call from the police at 12:30 am…..on a SUnday…..
Mr. boarder was picked up for Drunk driving and instructed police to call me to go get his car to avoid impound. WTF?????
I said NO WAY….tow it!
I changed the locks immediately at 12:30 that night and when he got out of jail, I saw him drive up through my security monitors and called him…..Again, crying and appologizing etc….I said….I hate to make a bad day worse….but you have until noon to be OUT OF MY HOUSE. Period…..He begged and begged, called me and called me…..and I told him NO…get out.
I held my ground…..I didn’t know this man….he was grown, paying rent and it was MY HOUSE…..he moved his shit out…..
He harrassed the kids a bit in town…..I instructed kids to ignore him……I told him if he had a problem, he could go to the courts, but to shut the fuck up with the kids….OR I WOULD GO TO THE COURTS.
Never heard from him again.
I was so proud of myself for NOT being the one to feel bad. HE broke the agreement…NOT me!
I stood my ground and usually I would be the one walking on eggshells ‘hoping’ he would change. And taking the stress when nothing changed……I didn’t wait for it to get to that point!
So…..if you don’t want her there….gather up your ‘balls’ and tell her……you have this right! You need no excuses……if she hates you….who cares….you are seeing the behaviors….DO SOMETHING FOR YOU !!!!!!
I assure you, you will feel better the sooner you do it! You know this!
Good luck blue…..I send you my mojo!
XXOO
I have mentioned several times here that my S woman has lived an almost non existent sex life for the past 15 years. According to her never was into sex. She claimed to have gotten raped 4 different times by men. She jumped the fence around 1982 and since then has been in lesbian relationships-except for me.
What I didn’t mention to you is that she is no doubt an Alpha woman and has to be in control all the time. She(I suspect) has had a history of prostitution even though she has no sex drive. Up to the past month when I broke it off with her she always made remarks that she liked playing the role of Dominatrix. She teased that she has the complete leather garb and handcuffs and whips.(Although I never saw anything). She told me she hated having sex with men because she hated to be in the submissive position in bed. The one time I had sex with her was a real let down for me because I know she didn’t relax and give me a real chance. I think it is that reason why I have been so obsessed with her over the years. Wanting her so bad I could taste her and her not giving me the time of day. The deceit was that if she didn’t really want me in that way all she had to do was say that but she never did. She conned me into using me as her houseboy doing anything and everything and getting a job to help support her. This is NOT the role I wanted for myself either. I just wanted her and accepted things “her way” all the time. I lost my soul because of her. And a huge part of my manhood I feel.
thanks Erin:) I know you are right. Thank you for sharing your story also it really helps:)x What you said about NOT being the one to feel bad is what I think I am stuck on.
This girl seems to have burnt every bridge she’s passed over, I understand why now, and although I am extremely uncomfortable with her being here now, I dont what it, I keep telling myself that ‘I cant ‘just’ kick her out onto the streets’ that she could ‘lose her job’ or ‘go down hill’ and then it would be my fault. (nice little package I’ve found here huh?.)
And what I am thinking is one more gathering of suitable places to rent, present her with loads of options… which she will no doubt turn down….sigh!
I am really VERY uncomfortable with saying that it’s ‘ not my problem’. I guess I need to trust that she will be okay and is capable enough ( in her own way!) of sorting out her self out…
Okay – so my son is on vacation at his grandparents in a few days and will be out of any crossfire if there is any.
I am still feeling like I need to work out ‘how’ to do this for the best and …blah…blah…
Okay – going to take that Nike slogan out with me today and see how it feels, by this evening and hope I’ve gathered up some EB balls of steel!;)x
Re: female sociopaths as mothers—a couple small examples of dozens and dozens…
Sister has a child. Marriage goes bad. They break up, and the dad, who she tricked both into marriage and fatherhood, has baby every weekend, dropping her off at daycare on Monday mornings.
Sister gets phone call at work from daycare on a Monday morning. Child Protective Services workers are there. Police are there. Baby is bruised on back and ribs and has clear handprint on her face. Dad says she fell out of her crib. CPS and police do not believe him. Sister does not believe him.
Dad is ordered to have no unsupervised visits with the baby.
Sister tries to force him to (usual tools of hysteria, pleading, manipulation, etc). He refuses as violating court order would mean possible jail time.
Sister tries to bribe him with money to take baby and leave the state. He refuses. (Her first child is living with the father 3,000 miles away–he agreed to raise her while she was still in diapers) So Sister feels totally trapped and thwarted and decides to give the baby up for adoption as “having a kid would hurt my chances to find a guy.”
I offer to raise my niece. She mulls this over for a while, then decides the child support will come in handy. (she never paid a penny to dad of first child)
So, she wanted her ex to take the baby, who was clearly abused—a man who had an explosive temper, to take her money and take the baby forever…
My niece is a young adult and heavily into drugs. I am NC with my sister and don’t know my niece…although I used to babysit when she went on vacations. I lived 3 hours away.
First pregnancy: (she “forgot” to use birth control, was pregnant when she married)–that husband used to call me crying because sister refused to eat and was locking herself in the bathroom. Said she didn’t want to eat as she didn’t want to “get fat.” I would drive 3 hours, talk her into letting me into the bathroom (yeah, she’d still be there 3 hours later) and then beg her to eat.
I’d spoonfeed her ice cream or anything I could get her to eat.
Then she’d leave bathroom, smiling, laughing, and would seem OK. Rinse and repeat until baby is delivered with very low birth weight. When this baby is 5 months old, she ditches the husband for another guy, (husband #3) and this child is raised entirely by the father.
This husband, father of 1st child, called me frequently over the years begging for sister’s phone number and telling me my niece was crying and depressed…he would beg me to intercede and get sister to call and talk to her daughter. I tried everything. When I’d give him her phone # she would be furious with me and change the number immediately.
Again, rinse and repeat.
She considers both kids to be either useful or useless to her—never seen any connection or interest in them. Once she got the guys to marry her, which meant getting pregnant to get the guys, she had no interest in being a mother. None.
She’s on husband #6 now, and never had any more children. I think wanting a baby abuser to raise a baby he never wanted & offering him big bucks to take the child would make her kind of a monster.
Her other behaviour, unrelated to being a mother, fits criteria for sociopath. Stealing, lying, manipulating, seductive, controlling, deliberately hurting people, zero empathy…etc.