We know only too well that by far the majority of psychopaths are men. Or at least we think we know that. Could it be that the criteria used to identify psychopaths are biased towards men? After all Hare began his work in male prison.
Think about it. While behaving and being the way the PCL-R without doubt earns one the label psychopath, this is simply a list of symptoms. It says nothing about the underlying dynamics. If psychopathy is life centered on the principle of power (as opposed to love) and if it is therefore characterised by what Liane Leedom nicely calls ‘warped empathy‘, then wouldn’t you expect there to be more or less the same number of woman as men psychopaths? And wouldn’t you expect them to come across differently?
I am beginning to wonder whether there may be two broad types of psychopathy – a ‘male’-type and a ‘female’-type. I place these in quotes because, when I think about it, men with might be thought of as ‘female’ psychopathy come to mind and we all know about women with ‘male’ psychopathy. And yet, at the risk of being un-PC, I want to maintain these descriptors for now so that the difference I think I see doesn’t disappear.
A ‘female’ psychopath would not necessarily commit crimianl/antisocial acts like her male counterpart, but she woud be as power-driven, as toxically narcissistic as a ‘male’ psychopath. The control, the manipulation, the dishonesty, the selfishness, the callousness – all these would be present, but we might not recognise them for what they are because of 1. media portrayal and 2. medical diagnosis of psychopaths. The difference would come in the gendered style of their behaviour.
In my clinical work I have come across this phenomenon. For example, a woman I now consider to be of the ‘female’-type of psychopath didn’t come close to committing a crime and yet the way she mothered her daughter, my patient, came close to destroying the child’s mind. This seems to me to be a perversion of motherhood eqivalent to the perversion of fatherhood we read about on this website.
Do readers have any comments? I’m particularly interested in any examples you might have of how ‘female’ psychopathy – if such a thing does exist – manifests itself?
Kathy,
That’s the thing, I have gone over the “requirements” for a lot of differnt diagnoses and she fits one here, and another there, all of them dysfunctional, but not more than 1 or 2 in a catagory.
1. She is an enabler.
2. She wears a mask that ONLY lets her “darkest side” show to me, everyone else thinks she is an angel who whould NEVER tell a lie or do anything mean or sneaky
3. She claims to “forgive” others, but she holds a grudge with the best of them, unless it is a male bad-actor she is protecting.
4. She “mind reads” others thinking she knows what they are thinking and will/would do.
5. She REQUIRES others, especially me, to help her protect the male “bad actors” in the family.
6. She projects with the best of them
7. She tries to buy coopleration with number 5, and if that doesn’t work, she will use force.
8. She was extremely reliable at work, and rose in her profession.
9. She was admired for her “honesty” and keeping her word by those who she knew casually in the work place or community.
10. She kept secrets and protected her and the family’s “reputation” by keeping highly secret any bad behavior from any male in the family. Even from her “closest” friends. (Actually I don’t think she ever had a freind outside the family that she would have confided ANYTHING of a negative personal or family nature to. The “minister” who thought he was an intimate friend to her and my step dad did not know son P was in prison even after 20 years.)
AFter my Grandmother (her mother) died she took over the “enabler at any cost” role in the family and as her health began to decline herself, started to “train” me for assuming her ROLE in the family of this “keep the peace at any price” role.
There are several dysfunctional BEHAVIORS and poor coping ability displayed here, as well as a life time of training and “faimly role theory” going on here, that goes back to several generations of “enablers” of toxic male members of the family and the TRADITON of “keep the dirty linen for the family hidden” which is a cultural thing I think more than anything and seems to be fairly widely spread in the community in which we live.
When we lived in other towns as I was growing up, she kept it a SECRET that she had ever been previously married even from their closest friends. Of course in THIS community everyone my age or older KNEW she had been previously married to my sperm donor so there was no way to keep it a “secret” here.
When we moved back to this community from 30 miles away where she had lived many years, and we moved up here where there is a rural route carrier for mail that knows everyone, I had to, at her insistence, rent a PO box in another small town in which to receive mail from Son-P because many times they came stamped on the outside “PRISON MAIL” in red ink, and she did NOT want the neighbors to know she had a grandson in prison.
My friends, on the other hand, KNEW ALL ABOUT my pain with my son being in prison because I shared with them my feelings. I didn’t “hide secrets” from my friends and most of them knew my and our family’s problems and challenges. I was never one to go “tattle” to my friends every time my husband and I had a cross word, but at the same time, I didn’t keep secrets either. If he had hit me, my friends would have known. They knew I was devestated about Son-P going to prison, and then the murder, though I did stay sort of hidden for about 3 months from all but the 1-2 closest friends after his arrest for murder.
The egg donor also wanted me to be at her “beck and call” and to not allow me time to take care of my own needs, and when I asked her to allow me to take care of my own needs, rather than her every whim, she became very angry at me, and that was the START of her becoming dependent on the Ps and “buying” their allegence with money. She said afterwards and the arrest, in total SHOCK, “but they were always so RESPECTFUL of me”—yea, while they robbed her! LOL
When I was trying to get her to see what The TH-P and DIL were up to, I got so frustrated one day that I yelled at her “You are just a SENILE old BAT!” and stomped out the door.
When I got to the porch I realized what I had said and how I acted, and I went back inside and apologized sincerely to her for saying that, but she NEVER ACCEPTED that apology because I “didn’t sound sincere.” Of course though, she expected me to “forget all about the past and pretend none of it ever happened” after she sent me an e mail saying “I’m sorry if you perceived anything I did or said as hurting you.” LOL
She has one set of rules for herself and one for everyone else, much like a psychopath does. But that bit of “P-like behavior” doesn’t mean she has no conscience or even most of the P characteristics. She can justify lying to me because she has a good reason and she can read my mind and “knows” how I would behave if she told me the truth and she wants to avoid that, so her lies are justified in her mind.
I can’t hang a diagnosis on her and conform it to the DMS IV, but I can say that her BEHAVIOR is TOXIC and her thinking is not condusive to a relationship with her being in my best interest.
It was difficult for me to accept that she would not lie. I think that was the thing that clued me in to just HOW TOXIC her behavior was and that her MOTIVES were not what she said they were, and that her “pity” for her poor grandson was not a good decision. I’ve also realized some things about myself that unfortunately were “just like my egg donor” and I am working really hard to change those toxic ways of thinking and behaving.
I think normal people can behave badly at times in certain circumstances, but the difference in “normal” people and psychopaths is that “normal” people CAN LEARN NEW WAYS OF BEHAVING and functioning and even thinking, but PERSONALITY DISORDERED people (cluster Bs if you will) are pretty well set in concrete.
A normal person may actually kill someone in a fit of rage or whatever, but they can REPENT, they can stop killing and see that THEY are responsible for the killing, the bad act, but a Psychopath will kill but NOT REPENT, not feel responsible or guilty. So “killing,” or any other bad act, I don’t think defines a personality disordered person so much as their EMOTIONAL and COGNATIVE processing about their acts.
Not sure if any of this makes any sense to others, sometimes it doesn’t make sense to ME! LOL
I’m so glad that we’ve opened this dialouge. Yes, Kathy, I have thought for a long time that a lot of us, here are suffering from some of these BPD symptoms, primarily a sort of a love addiction to men (or women) who are not good for us. I identify so much to what you had to say and thank-you for clearing up some of the confusion.
I would cringe any time someone posted something nasty about “cluster B’s or borderlines because I knew they didn’t understand the complexity of the thing…also borderlines sometimes have an excess of empathy, totally unlike psychopaths. I didn’t want to jump in, however, since I’m not sure I want to open myself up to exposure (for lack of a better word.)
I have read a few articles on-line about the narcissistic/ borderline relationship, and what’s really tragic is that we are attracted to each-other for some very practical reasons….
So in the beginning it ussually has a match-made in heaven feeling about it…the made for each-other thing. Unfortunately it can’t survive due to the very issues it sought to heal in each partner, and usually becomes torturious.
I certainly identify.
I think the most pathological thing about me in my love relationships was an absolute inability to get out. Super huge control issues, thinking I could and would change him, by God
I WAS OUT OF CONTROL. Frustration, rage, dispair. Absolutely miserable.
Interestingly, I think my x was just as hooked on me, and just as miserable. I could be wrong…he could have, just as likely been a P who was just sucking me dry, for all it was worth.
I find the black and white thinking kind of interesting, because, ever since I learned about P/S/N’s I’ve been stuck on whether he is or isn’t one. I think I’m finally catching on that one person can be both good and bad at different times. I say all this because my x is and was an alcoholic with a sever drug addiction, and yes, he displayed most of the symptoms on the check list, but there were (I think) some good things about him.
I’m working on forgiveness, also, by looking at myself and the role I played in our little drama.
But, again, as I said, he might well be a full-blown P…I will probably never know for sure.
Sometimes it seems a little hard to share here, because there is so much pain and anger,understandably, but I am 2.5 years out of my last, and I want to move into an understanding of myself…not so much focus on them…and I want to be honest with myself and others about who I am…
Sometimes it doesn’t feel safe to do that….anyway….
Thank-you Kathleen, and Oxy, and Mike and EB and LTL, and everybody else for this conversation.
I’m sorry my spelling is so bad…can you believe I’m two courses away from an MA in English? You’d think I could spell, but I’ve never been good at it, and I’m lazy, so I don’t want to take the time to look things up.
Oxy, did you read, ” The Lonliness of the Long Distance Runner”?
Dear Kim,
Yes, I read that…and it almost sounded like a “letter from my son”—the thinking, the entitlement, the lying to the cop, and the head guy at the place he was (I assume it was like a sort of semi-jail/semi-rehab type place for young offenders)
I didn’t have the “feeling sorry for his hard life” at all, I saw him more in light of the sense of entitlement he seemed to feel, the “let the other guy” do right, but I don’t have to as I don’t see any benefit in it.
He didn’t seem to have a lot of grief for the loss of his father, either, even though he described his terrible death scene.
I guess in a way, I projected my own P-son into that story because as I was reading through the medical records of my P-son in prison I see where he was usxing FAKE GRIEF issues to manipulate the therapist there to let him get different assignments for housing that what he had gotten, because of his “grief” over the illness and impending death of his “nephew” who in reality was the step son of his brother and P-son had never met this kid who came into our family at age 14 and died at age 21, and P-son had never corresponded with this kid or even met him, so WHY is he having all these “grief” issues all of a sudden? Because he had gotten in trouble and wanted a different housing assignment. LOL
Sure there was a “grain of truth” in his claim, his brother did have a step-son who had MD and was dying, but P-son was NOT and never had been “intimate” or even KNOWN this boy, so he used it as a SHAM reason for priviledges he couldn’t get any other way. But, if the therapist had “checked” on his claim that he had a “nephew” that was ill, she could have found that GRAIN of truth so he wouldn’t be made out a liar.
The boy in the story’s plans for the future at the end, how he was going to continue, even knowing there was a possibility that he got caught or “died in prison at age 82” etc. shows me that he h as an awareness of “right and wrong” but he doesn’t subscribe to other’s views of this concept. His looking down on the “warden” or whatever he was, his contempt at that man’s life, his contempt of the rich kids who were having the picnic, etc. shows me he has no empathy either.
So for whatever, reason, I did not feel “sorry” for this young man, but I thought instead that the author did show a perfect psychopathic way of thought in this young man’s ideas and behavior.
Any comments on my take of it?
Kim,
Thank you for sharing.
When I first started this journey my opening sentence here was I feel like it might be me, or that Ive done some terrible things, or that Im the unhealthy one..
Oxy was the first to welcome me here. She explained to me many things about getting caught up in a toxic relationship, especially in the chaos and confusion and that I should read, and learn as much as possible — and the one thing that stood out the most was Oxy said a big difference is I am the one who was here, or rather searching for answers , wanting to grow and learn and if need be …change. HE NOT ONLY WOULD NEVER BE HERE, HE HAD NO PROBLEM WITH THE WAY HE OPERATES AND CHEATS AND LIES AND STEALS…NONE AT ALL. That puts him in a much different category than me. I dont know what he is..I just know he doesnt make healthy choices and he is toxic to be with.
Halfway through my journey here, I declared that I wanted to and was willing to take 50 percent responsibility for my part in the dysfunctional relationship ONCE I WAS AWARE HE WAS USING ME, STEALING, LYING, etc. Yes I am a good kind giving caring person…but I also had something disordered about myself – to stay in that relationship. Even if it was being hopeful it was an unhealthy hopeful because of the situation I was in. He couldnt give me what I wanted/needed or I thought i did at the time. And I couldnt give him what he wanted/needed or thought he did at the time. But we BOTH thought we could get those things from eachother…we were BOTH struggling… Me with not knowing myself… him with only knowing and only wanting to care about himself… its sooo complicated. But Im resolved to the fact that Ive learned and grown and that cant help but cause change within us…. He just keeps going causing destruction and dysfunction everywhere he lands…
Im far from perfect, but I feel confident now that I know myself so much more and I know what I deserve and want – and when i take that newfound part of me and match it with my goodness, kindness, sincerity, and lovingness that I can have a healthy relationship with another person who is interested in being in a healthy balanced relationship. I could never be with a disrespectful, immature, always joking kind of guy ever again. Maturity, Responsibility and Sincerity is very important to me. Ive learned and grown in a way that I feel I offer more of that than ever before from within.
Im also sensitive, and at times insecure and probably a long list of other things – but with continual learning and growth and a willingness to recognize my own issues – I can have a much healthier relationship with myself and other like-minded people. I am not a good match for a S/N/P. I care too much about myself now and I know what a healthy relationship ISNT.
I hope you feel safe to share whatevers on your mind here, because you believe in yourself and that you will feel safe enough to be honest here too.
Thanks Kim
my rabbi once told me there will always be something there to challenge us, something we would have to overcome to get back to who we really are or to push us onto who we can be. i think i had to have autism since my life was so boringly normal there was little to challenge me or little to overcome for me to know my depths. my parents and grandparents did their best to keep me safe and sound and to protect me from the world.
my grandparents were holocaust survivors so it was understood that many of their issues were because of this. so any personality issue that may have fit wasn’t so stuck into place because it was never considered ‘who they really were’ but just a result of all they had gone through..
i kindof thought of things as; is this who i am really or is it the situation i’m in? a person can have the mentallity of poverty or just have that moment of ‘being broke’ that state of mind of always being in want can be permanent in some folks, being ‘broke’ is a temporary condition that can be overcome and moved to memory as just experience we have gone through, that momemnt of being ‘broke’ that seemed alot like poverty but wasn’t just a passing through concept that defined us for a moment but just a moment.
All in all we are the result of what has happened to us and it does shape SOME of who and what we are but all of that can change with a moment of awareness and a decision of ‘this isn’t who i want to be any more.’
we all here holding these dialoges are moving into a different direction, Kim, Kathy, and there’s no way Kathy that i can ever see you as a sociopath by proxy, it was just temporary madness just being lost for a moment, i think Oxy states it best any one that wants to change and can is something more than a personality disorder, when we can take charge of our lives and change or go towards that direction of assesseing ourselves and putting our hands on that steering wheel to go into another direction any label that once may or may not have held true could be just like suffering a flu, it’s not something you are, but something you picked up and can get over from with time and experience and wisdom and the will to do so.
Sure some folks will keep going through that revolving door but there’s always that chance of that person just stopping and deciding I’m getting off this ride because it just isn’t me anymore and are able to do so. yes we may all have had something at some point a a result of what we had gone through and more, but the decision in the end is that it can just be a habit we can all break. like smoking, like taking some zinc to get over a cold, like having allergies. like am i an angry person or am i a person who is angry? the former describes a permanent state of being the latter a person in and of itself separate from a condition that temporarily holds him… but will pass.. then we must consider is this my true nature or just a bad season i’m going through? we’re on a journey and sometimes in that journey we may have behaved in ways we’re not always proud of but it doesn’t have to be who we are.
we are all here together growing, learning, moving into different directions, relating to others, helping each other along the way in a very healthy manner, some for the first time right here. we are doing good.
Kim, it may take time but you are in the right direction.
Oxy and Kathy, i have a total crush on you two, it’s just the wisdom of you both, the substance and compassion that breathes from you both that to me is beauty personified. the spirit and strength of you two is just so admirable and accessable and true and to me the definition of beauty. i’ve always admired and was struck with real substance and masterpieces, something someone had to work hard to accomplish, the beauty of nature is okay too but often just a given. i’ve always been struck by beauty shaped by great trials and triumphs.
i just wanted to say you are some beautiful grand women and i’m painting a picture of you both even though i’ve not ever laid eyes on you.
Mike
Mike –
Your post was comforting and warm. Thanks for all of your insightful and wise posts.
Kathy and Oxy are amazing souls who have touched so many peoples lives here at LF and probably most everywhere they go! Your words to them made me smile. 🙂
Hope you and your family are doing well. Say hi to Des.
Dear Mike,
Thank you sweetie! I appreciate those wonderful words!
My favorite author and one who helped me the most is Dr. Viktor Frankl who was a holocaust survivor too, he wrote a book after getting out about the EMOTIONAL experience of being there and how it effected different people in different ways. What kept some people alive with hope they would survive where others layed down and gave up and died.
The most important thing (to me) he said was that pain is like a gas, even a little of a gas fills a container TOTALLY. So none of us can say our pain is “worse than yours” or we have “suffered more than you” as all pain and suffering is TOTAL to the one suffering. I think HE OF ALL PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW. He lost everything but his life, but he did not allow it to make him bitter or hateful. He wrote “Man’s search for meaning” and I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT for anyone who has suffered any sort of “trauma” or loss. It humbled me in a great way to realize I shouldn’t feel guilty because my “trauma” wasn’t as “bad” as someone else’s, or that it was “worse” than someone else’s either.
Actions themselves are not “disorders”—no matter how “bad or wrong” those actions are, but each person can be assessed by the pattern of their actions–the people who “bombed” the Twin towers had clean consciences as they thought they were doing “God’s will”—it was what they had been taught was “good and right.” Were they psychopaths? Probably not. Yet, they killed thousands of people.
Have I done things I thought were “right” that hurt people? Probably. Have I done things that I thought were “wrong” that hurt people? YEP! Do I have more willingness to follow my conscience now than I did in the past? YEP. Do I still hurt people sometimes? YEP! Do I still make bad decisions? Yep! Do I keep on trying to make better ones? DOUBLE YEP!
That is all any of us can do in life, is to do what we think is right, try not to hurt others intentionally or unintentionally, and to also learn to take care of ourselves to the best of our ability. That means that we don’t engage in allowing others to abuse us…no matter how much we love them. We learn to set boundaries and enforce them.
Hi Mike. I really like your theory of something being a passing thing Vs something that is a permanant aspect of personality. I think it’s a very healing and hopeful way of approaching recovery. Thanks.
LTL, Yes, I’ve raised the bar on what I expect and what I will accept in a relationship, too, however, I think I have a lot more work to do before I’m ready to take one on…
I’m kind of like Oxy; it might be nice…but it’s not that important, I’m doing pretty good on my own.
I’m more at peace than I’ve been in a very long time, and I’m finding I really enjoy the “selfishness” of being alone. Not having to work my schedual around someone else, not having to compromise, watching what I want on TV, keeping the temp in the house where I’m comfortable, cooking the food I like, not watching F’n football all day long on my only day off,
Not being physically ill at work, because I’m such an emotional wreck…etc. etc etc. I could go on all day.
I’ve been trying to find myself, again. I’ve asked myself, what things are most constant over the course of my life. Apart from addiction issues, there are a few things.
I’ve always been creative, and am happiest when I’m making something.
I have always loved cats.
I hate bullys.
I usually feel for the underdog.
That’s not much, but it’s a beginning.
LTL,
Des is better thank you, she was in a dark place for a bit there and i had to leave her be for her to wrestle her ‘demons’… Usually she’s the one who has it all together so it’s something different for us to wrestle with this time around.
She and the dolphin did see and hear the Dalai lama this past tuesday at his visit to Nova Southeastern university and it was something that we just needed to experience although i didn’t get to go.
Des came back less tense and relaxed. today she seems like her normal self zoning out on the floor listening to Mozart, i’ve got the dolphin on my lap here and we are saying hello to the world connecting with friends and coming together she is slapping her hands to Mozart . life is still good.
Oxy, i think my mother had Dr. Viktor Frankl book and i will borrow it. thanks for taking my compliment as it was meant to be and not like i’m some schmuck. to be true with all that goes on in the world South Florida being an infested psychopath zone it’s a releif to witness the beauty of some souls here. After all that you’ve gone through with your family and yet you are still ‘golden’ my temporary lost faith in humanity does make a comeback and i’m appreciative of that.
Kim, good work, we’re here for you. keep strong, and spoil yourself. in fact today try to buy or do something special just FOR YOU.
Mike