We know only too well that by far the majority of psychopaths are men. Or at least we think we know that. Could it be that the criteria used to identify psychopaths are biased towards men? After all Hare began his work in male prison.
Think about it. While behaving and being the way the PCL-R without doubt earns one the label psychopath, this is simply a list of symptoms. It says nothing about the underlying dynamics. If psychopathy is life centered on the principle of power (as opposed to love) and if it is therefore characterised by what Liane Leedom nicely calls ‘warped empathy‘, then wouldn’t you expect there to be more or less the same number of woman as men psychopaths? And wouldn’t you expect them to come across differently?
I am beginning to wonder whether there may be two broad types of psychopathy – a ‘male’-type and a ‘female’-type. I place these in quotes because, when I think about it, men with might be thought of as ‘female’ psychopathy come to mind and we all know about women with ‘male’ psychopathy. And yet, at the risk of being un-PC, I want to maintain these descriptors for now so that the difference I think I see doesn’t disappear.
A ‘female’ psychopath would not necessarily commit crimianl/antisocial acts like her male counterpart, but she woud be as power-driven, as toxically narcissistic as a ‘male’ psychopath. The control, the manipulation, the dishonesty, the selfishness, the callousness – all these would be present, but we might not recognise them for what they are because of 1. media portrayal and 2. medical diagnosis of psychopaths. The difference would come in the gendered style of their behaviour.
In my clinical work I have come across this phenomenon. For example, a woman I now consider to be of the ‘female’-type of psychopath didn’t come close to committing a crime and yet the way she mothered her daughter, my patient, came close to destroying the child’s mind. This seems to me to be a perversion of motherhood eqivalent to the perversion of fatherhood we read about on this website.
Do readers have any comments? I’m particularly interested in any examples you might have of how ‘female’ psychopathy – if such a thing does exist – manifests itself?
You know, when your daughters are spaths, it takes a long long time to even understand it, and when you do, it takes even longer to believe it! I have absolutely NO doubt now in my mind that mine are both very disordered people, without consciense, empathy, remorse, pity, or compassion. I was Cleopatra for so long,{the Queen of deNile, LOL!} , but a lot of this was ignorance asI hadnt yet found LF. What a great place this is to come to, to learn, read, blog, vent, rage,and support others, hopefully when we have learnt some stuff thats helpful to newbies!
The 25th Feb.{last week,} was my younger daughters 44th Birthday, and normally Id be absolutely miserable all day, This is the B–ch I havent seen in 17 years, never once been allowed to see her 3 kids, now 13, 10, and one year old.Last year and this year are the first I havent sent her a Birthday card, as for 15 of these years I sent them,-no response. I used to send her cards, flowers, choc. hampers, etc., never any response, tho she kept them!But enough is enough.Im sure I still have some love left for her, but refuse any longer to throw my pearls before swine.This time , I rang my REAL daughter, Roya, who wa so sweet and loving to me on the phone, and I bought myself a HUGE bunch of orange day Lilies.
Im starting to feel REAL anger now at both of them, but itsa “clean” kind of anger, a righteous anger, . I dont want to get bitter, just better!The TRUTH is like torch light, a search light, a knife, a bucket of icy water. But its NECESSARY, to cut thru the denial, the lies.TO REALLY see what Ive ALLOWED these B–ches to do to me for years and years, me giving giving giving, yearning for any kind of crumb thrown my way. NO Longer.I dont want to die like poor NewLily, desperate for any crumb of affection from her spath kids.
From now on , Ill give my love to people who love me back!
I found apicture from Xmas, 2008, of my D wearing a gorgeous black pearl necklace Id bought her.{Huge cultured black pearls, cost me a fortune.} She is sittingwith this gorgeous necklace on,l preening hersef, I am looking at her likea sick puppy,desperate for a ny crumb of affection, and on the table are the pathetic freebie “gifts” she gave David and I, a crap book on crocodiles for me, and a crap book on Koalas for David. Tiny print, tiny black and white drawings, obviously nicked from her place of work, and even wrapped in used Xmas paper.I can hardly stand to look at that pic now, to see how pathetic, needy,and what a doormat I was.
Last time Roya came, she brought a home made cake, beautifully decorated, some Moet Champagne,and a huge bunch of flowers, all given with a huge hug and showered with kisses!I could literally FEEL my broken heart starting to knit together! How lucky am I ?!!! Love, Gem.XX
Dear Mike, WOW! I feel very honored! When you get done, take a photo of the painting and send it to Donna, maybe she will post it on LF! ((((Mike))))
Kathy, I THINK YOU HAVE COME UP WITH A GREAT IDEA!!!!! I think that is THE TICKET!!!! I know just the folks to do this with too….and it sounds so aultruistic of me! PUKE!!!!
PUNISHING????? Boy, you got that RIGHT!!!! Punishing isn’t the word for it, VENGENCE, “hell fire and brimstone” and “justified by God himself” is more like it! Her FURY knows NO BOUNDS! That is the thing that is so scary about it really, because as much as I know my P-son would like to strangle me with his own hands, she feels just about as rabid about it as he does. In reading through is letters where he is “upset” because I have made “inroads” into his “kingdom” and where you can see he is GRASPING at straws to retain control, he is no more upset or grasping for control or exibiting rage than she is.
In ways, she is more scary than he is because she has the financial advantage over me because most of my assets are tied up in my home and airport here and until after her death there is no way I can liquidate them. If I get into a court fight with her she would win simply because she has greater liquid resources than I do, and more monthly income to tide her over. In fact, in one of his letters to the TH-P P-son was talking about ways to bankrupt me (this was before the arrest) and even just buying the RV and staying hidden, plus the attorney’s fees etc. I ended up spending a considerable lump that summer just to survive. I have to keep enough in “reserve” to to run again if I have to before I am able to sell my interests and liquidate my assets, so it is sort of a wobbly foundation I am standing on with her. If she attacks me legally I will have to defend myself, but will be using assets I could need later if he were to get out.
Hiring an attorney to keep him in prison was a big chunk by itself, but I hired THE BEST and the most expensive too, because I will only get one shot that this each time I he comes up for a parole hearing. I am hoping I can do well enough that he won’t come back up for another 5 years.
Keep in mind that CHARLIE MANSON comes up for parole each year, but he is NOT likely to make it even if he is infraction free and goes to church daily—so I am hoping that I can get enough stuff to the parole board that there isn’t much chance he will get out for a along time. I plan to be there EVERY time he comes up, or my other sons will be until the day he dies.
I went to the DSM IV today and copied off the “symptoms” of ASPD to include with the pack to the attorney and also the proposed DSM V criteria, and will inclued a few other things from Hare. In fact, I may just include a copy of “Without Conscience” with the package.
I do Kathy wish that there was some way to get it through to my egg donor what she is doing, but you know, there are times I think she KNOWS what she is doing and DOES NOT CARE, she is punishing me FOR WHATEVER INFRACTION against the “family rules” I have gone against, and it is almost all of them. I have “outed” the dominant male in the family as a monster, I have “outed” her when I took her to court and tried to get her “declared” and I have refused to accept the role in the family as the “designated enabler.” I have VIOLATED ALL the rules and I should be punished.
I never actually thought or felt growing up that she even liked me….I actually didn’t realize that until recently, at least not consciously, but I was born the “wrong sex” and I think that is part of it. She never had a son, so she co-opted mine for her own, and now she is defending them like a mama badger.
At least the dominant one…C has not been the “big success” that she wanted and some how she figures that P son will be. DUH!??? But she buys into his intellect and his pretend “piety.” LOL She has put all her “eggs in one basket” and she isn’t about to change either eggs or basket at this point, because after she smeared me to the community, it would make her look “bad” to back peddle now.
But whatever happens with her, I know I cannot trust her EVER, because she lies. Took me a long time to realize her motives were not pure and that she WOULD lie, and now that I know, at least I am forearmed now.
Thanks Kathy—I hope you managed to get away from Janie’s “attack” with the skillet. I locked it up! LOL ROTFLMAO I can’t even imagine Our sweet Janie coming after someone with even a rubber chicken, much less a skillet! (((hugs))))
Mike….
I’m envisioning Thelma and Louise…….. on donkey’s……
Its my darling late Mums birthday today, and were going to toast her in champagne this evening!{She died in 1992.] I was in the air on my way to see her, but she died while I was on the plane.Then, I had to cope with my rude, spath brothers patronising behaviour.She was 82 when she died, only 6 weeks after my Dad.
Feeling a bit low this evening,-I know its NOT deliberate, but I feel invisible today on LF.No response to my blogs. Love to you all,!! Gem.XX
Hi Gem. I always think of my mom on her birthday, too. Do you know what I do, in her honor? I read Dylan Thomas’, “Fern Hill”, because I read it to her once a few years before she died, and she loved it…I knew she would, it reminds me of her. Sure do miss her, and my Dad, too!
I’m glad you got to spend some time with Roya. She sounds like a lovely person.
Yesterday was my Birthday (51) and my whole family took me to dinner. My two daughters, my son, my five grandchildren, and my x hub…I had such a good time and really felt loved. It was nice.
I wish you could have this feeling Gem. I’m sorry that you are estranged from your girls, but I’m glad you have Roya, and that she makes you happy…….:)
Dear Gem,
Happy birthday to your late Mom… what a wonderful way to celebrate her life today.
LF is getting so busy, so popular, I feel terrible that days later I might be able to find a response to me or something someone wrote to me I never even see it… I have to search and go through hoops or just by chance I catch it when Im reading other posts and scroll up to see what was written to that poster initially.. I think the fact you pointed it out is what we need to do when we feel that way. I know its not intentional – or deliberate – but sometimes we need to know so we can go back and catch up on posts.
Hope youre feeling better this morning. I miss knowing my mom was alive and out in the world somewhere…but knowing she is now at peace brings me a slightest bit of comfort. But I think I too will toast her in champagne this August. Thank you for sharing how you will honor your moms life today. (((hugs)) ps. Happy Belated 51st BD Kim!
Dear Gem,
It is really a blessing that you have Roya in your life, Gem. I know that having a relationship with her can’t take away the pain of the damage that has been done with your daughters.
However you are able to enjoy a loving relationship with a young lady that treats you how you deserve to be treated. The dynamics of this relationship is reciprocating. It is mutual.
This is what is SO missing in a relationship with a S/P/N child.
You deserve to know what this feels like.
xxxxx
MammaGem:
I’m sorry I didn’t post to you last night…..
I hope you enjoy your new kids visit and share in the love you have…..
Remember your mother with great memories shared with your friends and family.
AND ENJOY THAT CHAMPAGNE!!!
I hope you keep an ‘up feeling’ today and enjoy yourself!
XXOO
EB
Wow, wow, wow! I love the discussion of BPD. As per usual I have had these thoughts swirling around in my head, but neither the skill or the will to write about it here.
I have had episodic BPD, in love relationships. And an early history of strong BPD tendencies in my youth and adolesence. I think you all are really on to good ideas of how these symptoms are triggered, expressed, and resolved for some of us.
My therapist of 20 years said she felt I had ‘situational’ BPD/depression (but gave me an official dx of PTSD, for insurance purposes). She believed it was entirely possible for any of us, and it has been expressed beautifully here, to experience and express these symtoms in response to certain situations.
Despite my historical expression of BPD symptoms she was still unwilling to diagnose me because I would come full circle and stop with the behavior once the stimulus was removed.
My first big break from BPD symptoms was a 13-year hiatus from my mother; during which time I had a relatively long and productive relationship (which was decidedly ‘undramatic’). Then my sweetie and I split and I was triggered by that stress and started up with the addiction to unrequited love as I had in my late teens and early 20’s; looking to relationships for absolution. I was SO angry with myself, for I had two short term relationships with two total p’s. But my therapist was very loving and kept telling me I had not fallen from grace (as I felt I had and was ashamed). But that I couldn’t handle losing my sweetie, and regressed back to an old pattern of relating. It was very hard for me to understand this at the time, since I was so busy hating myself. But eventually I cut myself some slack, and allowed some room to be a good person again, and not a lost cause. It was very hard going.
And the end, I pray, and culmination came as my attraction to and full experience of a p. I say ‘full experience’ because I had been with some 3-5 p’s, or at least aggressively abusive men, and never understood what was going on. And just blindly moved on to the next man. But due to having healed so much of what was broken I came to a more complete awareness of my own pain, and participation. And I was able to see what had been there all along: my attraction, my history, my own behaviors, and their abuse.
The BPD symptoms were very triggered by this last p. But with help I saw them, and I could manage them this time around. Make different choices. And I can, with some pointed focus, avoid those situations/people that are triggering.
I am grateful for this knowledge. And as much as I have hated hearing it, wanting only to castrate any notion that something good could ever come of it, I am certain I would not have come to this place of awareness without having engaged the p. Without having risked to love the wrong one’s I never would have come face-to-face with myself. And I needed to. I am the one I have been searching for; never having been properly introduced so long ago.
Oxy,
So true. I might come at ya with my famous homemade vegetable soup and kindly persuade you to eat it as it’s tasty and good for you, but your boinking skillet is safe from my gentle hands.
At least safe regarding the lovely LF tribe members. Psychopaths? hmm…question to seriously ponder.
Still patiently waiting for some German engineer, physicist to invent my disintegrating ray gun.
Such a handy little gadget!
xxooxxoo…
8)