We know only too well that by far the majority of psychopaths are men. Or at least we think we know that. Could it be that the criteria used to identify psychopaths are biased towards men? After all Hare began his work in male prison.
Think about it. While behaving and being the way the PCL-R without doubt earns one the label psychopath, this is simply a list of symptoms. It says nothing about the underlying dynamics. If psychopathy is life centered on the principle of power (as opposed to love) and if it is therefore characterised by what Liane Leedom nicely calls ‘warped empathy‘, then wouldn’t you expect there to be more or less the same number of woman as men psychopaths? And wouldn’t you expect them to come across differently?
I am beginning to wonder whether there may be two broad types of psychopathy – a ‘male’-type and a ‘female’-type. I place these in quotes because, when I think about it, men with might be thought of as ‘female’ psychopathy come to mind and we all know about women with ‘male’ psychopathy. And yet, at the risk of being un-PC, I want to maintain these descriptors for now so that the difference I think I see doesn’t disappear.
A ‘female’ psychopath would not necessarily commit crimianl/antisocial acts like her male counterpart, but she woud be as power-driven, as toxically narcissistic as a ‘male’ psychopath. The control, the manipulation, the dishonesty, the selfishness, the callousness – all these would be present, but we might not recognise them for what they are because of 1. media portrayal and 2. medical diagnosis of psychopaths. The difference would come in the gendered style of their behaviour.
In my clinical work I have come across this phenomenon. For example, a woman I now consider to be of the ‘female’-type of psychopath didn’t come close to committing a crime and yet the way she mothered her daughter, my patient, came close to destroying the child’s mind. This seems to me to be a perversion of motherhood eqivalent to the perversion of fatherhood we read about on this website.
Do readers have any comments? I’m particularly interested in any examples you might have of how ‘female’ psychopathy – if such a thing does exist – manifests itself?
I visited the American Eagle site as we don’t have that shop here, and I picked out some flip flops and a little beanie for the scousepath’s imaginary summer wardrobe. I’m feeling a bit perkier already. BBE, thank you times ten.
LoL. This is a little bit off-colour but it is quite funny. That person whom I think is the x-spath looked at my profile again. This time, I was at the bar and told him to come over. Whether the x-spath or not, he was a no-show. If he is not the x-spath, I must have this guy’s head spinning because he has to think I know him, even though he has not unlocked his pictures for me.
Here is the off-colour part. I had a dream last night that I was touring Buckingham Palace. I needed to use the facilities and while I was in the rest room, this very, very drunk scally came in. He was so drunk that he could not stand straight and proceeded to urinate on my sneakers. As the scally was urinating on my sneakers, I noticed a very pronounced herpes blister on his willy…
I imagine such regularly happens to people at Anfield…
At Anfield you need herpes simply to gain admission. I lived near the West Ham United football stadium in my youth in East London. Men would spend the hours running up to the match drinking in the pubs and then emptying their bladders in the road. Not against a wall, in the actual road. With cars driving at them.
BBE you have made my last day as a 42 year old woman a happy one. I want my very own The Duck! But I love so many of her works I’m going to fyeahwomenartists dot com, as I often do to be inspired by the creativity , to make my choice. Then I will ask Donna if she would be kindenough to pass you my email address. My own Manhattan art dealer! Thrilled to pieces!
If you aren’t familiar with Aintree Ladies Day , I think you may enjoy the results of a google search. It’s the annual scallies day out to the local horse racing track. Not for the faint hearted. The Daily Mail always publishes lots of pictures.
Very interesting that Americans tend to romanticize Liverpool because of the Beatles! Until I met the scousepath and studied up on the city, I had no idea it was so rough. Maybe the dialect, being nonrhotic like New York, added to the attraction.
Dreams are sometimes a result of recent life events. Yesterday afternoon, my friends had a red-themed gathering at sports bar, so I wore a Man U jersey and Adidas Reds sneakers…
The Adidas Reds have an interesting story as they are part of these weird coincidences tied to the x-spath and his birthday. There are quite a few, starting with the fact that I met him on the last day of short-term disability before returning to work. The first day of the disability period was his birthday. That day started a chain of events that led to my meeting him.
It was like the Titanic sinking — had any number of things not happened, I would not have met the x-spath, at least then. There is part of me though that believes fate was involved, simply because I knew of him but no who he was for 9 months before we met…
Any, the sneakers are Adidas Liverpool FC Reds. I bought them when I was in Montreal, but I had no idea that they were kit, as the logos are not prominent. These sneakers have been all over the world, from Montreal to St. Petersburg, Russia.
Last year, I was getting ready to go to a concert. I only wear the Reds on special occasions now as they are well-worn. I was lacing them up and finally noticed the “LFC” logo. I googled it “LFC” — Liverpool Football Club.
That day was the x-spath’s birthday…
Also last night I ran into the British friend of mine who is about to turn 50 and looks very much like what I imagine the x-spath to look like a 50. He is not an unattractive man for 50 but if he did not smoke and drink so much he could be almost a Daniel Craig.
So, all this combined produced one weird dream, yet one that is ironically full of real-life meaning.
I forget how Donna does the email exchange but do that an I will set you up with a print. I am actually thinking of advertising here, just not 100% set-up. That will take a few more weeks.
I will also put together something to demonstrate how really pathetic is that little manchild…
My choice is made…I think. Lol. You may have to advise on which of 3 choices would repro best. 43 today, 43 today, I’ ve got the key to the door, never been 43 before! And I’m feelin’ good. I will google for your sneakers they sound nice. I have a new pair of Superga Cotu white as snow. And washable at 30 degrees, too.
I think the best response we can all have to all our encounters with these disordered people, once the trauma recedes, is to trace the path that put us in their way and to figure out what we want from others, what we will tolerate in future, what we will never accept again.
That is not in any way to suggest victims of manipulation and lies are responsible for their abuse. They are not. But we all have ti come through this less vulnerable in future. Without hopefully becoming hardened or a hermit.
Also it may be possible for some of us to actually find silver linings in this mess. Maybe mine is I get a piece if art I love on the wall and whenI look at it I’ll be reminded of all the goodness I found here on LF. Also this artist’s work is everything the abuser is not. Vibrant, full of life, joyful. So this is just a great thing for me and moving forward with my recovery.
Exactly my point with the “Perfect Storm” analogy — part of the conditions for such a storm was our mindset at the time.
Stress and depression from a sociopathic employer made me emotionally needy and right before the x-spath, I met a Borderline that I became very attached to. However, he had been courting somebody online and dumped me when that took off.
I had my red flags regarding the x-spath but I ignored them, partially to fill the void left by the Borderline. However, it was the x-spath’s mirroring that led me to believe that he was the real “soulmate” — further enhanced by his withholding sex to make me think that by not starting a relationship with sex as most gay men do, that this was really special.
One of the reasons for the short-term disability was to taper off taking an antidepressant that had some concerns to my cardiologist, along with stress reduction. My psychiatrist was very concerned about this and wanted me away from work and it was he who signed off on the short-term disability for mental health reasons.
Well, I stared becoming very depressed after and initial good start, and right before I met the x-spath, I again started taking the antidepressant. This medication has dopamine and noradrenaline agonist properties and I was also using a light box. The combination made me hypomanic thus enhancing feelings for the x-spath.
I sincerely doubt that without any of these events, I would have had any feelings for the x-spath.
BTW, one good thing to come out of this was a vital understanding of light’s effect on mood and emotions, particularly in the summer. After my open-heart surgery, the following two summers were hell for me. I was hypomanic with depression. I could not sleep for days on end. If I took any sleep medication, I became even more depressed.
A Bipolar friend of mine, of all people, noted that he had never seen me so hypomanic “except when you were seeing that crazy flight attendant…” I began to think and bam — too much sunlight light was making me hypomanic. I thought about my time in St. Petersburg, Russia, when I saw an entire city hypomanic because of too much daylight.
So, I darkened my room, kept the AC high and when I went out, I wore blue-light blocking sunglasses and within days the hypomania was broken.
This is a very intriguing subject. I have no idea if my sunglasses block blue light, I’ll be checking. I’m down to 10mg of citalopram every other day. I’m tapering off very gradually as I rushed it in April and two days taking none resulted in vertigo, tingling in my head, what some refer to as ” freeze framing” – very disorientating and disruptive. Anything natural I am keen on learning about.
Sunglasses that have an amber tint will generally block blue-spectrum light. Light is such a powerful component of health but not very well understood by conventional medicine, despite the fact that a strong body of evidence exists. Here is just one, regarding sleep:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20030543
Of course, when studies first suggested that LCD and LED computer monitors and TVs, which are blue-spectrum intensive, might cause sleep disorders and anxiety, some actually ridiculed the studies.
During the blackout due to Hurricane Sandy, by the second night I noticed that I was sleeping better. I now wear amber tinted glasses when on the computer after 6 PM.
In addition, I am a strong proponent of keep light at a year round constant level. Thus, in the summer, as I said, blue-block sunglasses even in the early evening when I would not otherwise use them. Very dark window shades so a natural 12-hour light, 12-hour dark cycle is maintained year-round.
In the winter, during the day I turn on very, very bright lights from the moment I get up. These are the same spectrum as bright light boxes but much less expensive. In the afternoon, I turn them down a bit. Then, after 6 PM, I only use low-level “warm” lighting that does not have a blue-spectrum component.
Most people experience some form of SAD even if they do not realize such. For example, if you gain weight during the winter, or find yourself craving carbs, this is solely due to low light levels and can be easily cured. Even more severe SAD responds to light therapy, which is particularly effective when combined with exercise.
I have lived in Montreal, one of the least appreciated cities in the world. Compared to Montreal, London’s weather is very, very moderate. London does not get -30 C days in the Winter, nor does London get +35 days in the Summer — during April and October, Montreal’s weather can turn on a dime — 0 C one night and +30 a few days later.
Yes, if you listen to Londoners, you would think they live in Montreal. Conversely, Montrealers never complain about the weather, even in January when it is the coldest major city in the world, even colder than Moscow.
Why, particularly the winter? Because its simply not so gloomy and Montrealers also embrace the outdoors. Nothing cures the winter blues like exercising under a bright blue, cold sky.
Another fact to keep in mind is that metabolic rates are lower in the summer than winter. While the medical community dose not recognize hypomania with depression, summer heat can lower the metabolic rate enough to cause depression while still experiencing the hypomania of excessive light. As I said, there is nothing worse…
Thus, for some keeping very cool is also important during the summer.
Subclinical thyroid hormone variation is another condition not well accepted by conventional medicine.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/92/7/2545.short
If I may: My mother (I think she may have been a psychopath) adopted kids after 25 years of marriage, simply to raise and groom an end-life caretaker for her and Daddy. She made no bones about it. At every turn in my life, she exerted almost total control over me, especially, and used emotional and verbal on me, my brother and Daddy. And for my brother, the brutal physical stuff. Daddy loved my long hair, Mother had a reason to cut it short, where many of my childhood pictures I look like a boy. Seriously. She selected all my clothing until I was 18, I had no input. Occasionally she’d throw me a bone and let me say that my favorite color was purple and get something for me in that. She rigidly commanded what clothes I was to wear and again I had no say until I was 18. It makes me wanna cry that people refuse to beleive me on this one. It is very disempowering. She dictated when I washed my hair and wouldn’t let me wash it myself until I was 12. And even then, it had to be her style. She permed me twice a year, even though I have naturally curly hair. She wanted me to look like her damn poodles, I guess. After high school, she ran off my fiance, and I spent the next 9 years being Daddy’s caretaker. I didn’t mind as he needed protecting from her. But she managed to make the family beleive that I was retarded and could not drive. Going so far as to ask if someone would please take me out and teach me. Even though I drove Daddy to the library twice a month. She took me out of contact with all my church and school buddies, once I graduated. Then moved us to another state to insure it. Never had a private phone call, all the years… too much to state here, and I’m sure I’ve bored everyone to death by now, anyhow. But where’s a place where I can read to see if she really was a psychopath? I need more proof one way or another…
Tricorvus, you aren’t boring anyone. I’m very saddened to read of your relationship with your mother, it sounds as if she was a highly controlling individual and clearly you felt traumatised by her. You may want to google for narcissistic personality disorder, by which I don’t in any way mean you wont find help here, but what you describe sounds like narcissistic behaviour so you may want to read some information on the character traits of people with that particular personality disorder as a starting point. Psychology Today has lots on Narcissism. I have not read an article here on psychopathic mothers but if you email Donna Andersen she will point you in the right direction. Let us know how you get on.
Hi tricorvis, nice to meet you. As tea said many of her traits are narcissistic and controlling which can be traits of sociopaths as well. Only you can determine what classification fits her best, so read, read, read, all you can about all personality disorders. I had no idea what a sociopath was, other than the movie and headline ones. A forensic psychologist formally diagnosed the latespath, I just knew he was abusive and ‘off the wall’.
Your mother reminds me a lot of my maternal grandmother. She immigrated to the US from Eastern Europe shortly after World War 1 as a teenager, no one, including herself, is sure how old she was. She died after being here over 60 years and never learned to speak English, although she moved from an Eastern European ghetto to a mixed suburban neighborhood in the very early 50s.
We just knew her as authoritarian, someone you never crossed; she kept a razor strap and was not afraid to use it. She ruled with an unwavering iron hand. She took my grandfather’s (who was never unemployed, even during the depression) entire pay packet and doled him out spending money. She put my mother to work at 5 along with her sister aged 7, on weekends; they would clean a Christian person’s home all day on Saturdays and a Jewish person’s home on Sundays in between going to morning and evening church services, for 25 cents between them; worse part my grandmother kept 10 cents, gave my aunt 10 cents, and my mother got 5. While she let my aunt finish 8th grade, she took my mother out of school in the 3rd grade and put her to work full time cleaning. At 12 my mother got a job with a dentist working her way up to a dental assistant for a salary of $25.00 a week in the late 40’s. My grandmother kept $15.00 and let my mom have $10.00, out of which she had to pay for her uniforms, food, non work clothes, entertainment and all and sundry.
My grandmother was a also very religious(Eastern Orthodox) bordering on fanatical, she made sure that my mother not only went to services several times a week, she also had to go to instruction in language, history, and custom several afternoons and evenings a week. Sadly when my mom was 6 or so, she was sexually abused by the clergy there. I am sure my mother must have told her parents, but in my grandmother’s eyes the religious could do no wrong and therefor was my mother’s fault. My mother became her ‘whipping boy’.
Unfortunately, my mother was never able to deal with the religious sexual abuse. She would cut out every article she could find about clergy abuse(over 3 shopping bags of articles; watch in complete silence, every TV show on the subject; etc..
Like you, my grandmother demanded permanents for me. My mother refused, so she would come over and do them herself. She would also cut my long hair. My hair is perfectly straight, like my father’s side, maybe she resented that. I hated short hair and perms too. I have no idea how, but a little before 2nd grade, my mother put a stop to my grandmother’s hair styling.
I was the grandchild outcast. When my uncle got married (11 years younger than my mother, my cousins were a bridesmaid and ring bearer, I was completely ignored. There were only the 3 grandchildren, while she kept pictures of my cousins on her walls and mirrors, none of me.
You are not alone here or anywhere else. Welcome.
Just very taken aback by these two stories of posters having their hair permed as young girls. I well remember my grandmother’s perming routine, her sisters all did each other’s at home and she trained my mother to do it too. I would gag from the smell of the perming chemicals as a child. All those little rollers! It looked so uncomfortable I would have been horrified if it had been forced on me, lost and tricorvus.
Tricorvus let me tell you, you are in the right place to get an education here. I only found Lovefraud a few weeks ago. You will find the articles here are right on the money and then the comments really open it up further. Sounds like you have quite a story. We all have scars here. Most of us have some pretty weird stories of our own so you’re not going to freak us out that easy. There’s also a lot of experience here, and sharing. So don’t be shy. Pull up a chair.
Tricorvus,
Let me assure you that your story is not boring anyone!Though our stories are all different,many veins of similarities can be seen in these stories.So feel free to share your story.That is part of the healing process.Then read,read and read!And of course,keep posting!
My brother is married to a sociopath. She is also involved in witchcraft. She uses manipulation… to get what she wants and to keep certain people out of my brother’s life. I have been threatened by her because I did not do what she wanted me to do one time. This woman has my brother blinded due to manipulation and brain washing him. I heard that she has cheated on her. I wish he would divorce her.
Hi psalms,
Your story is very much like my brothers wife. She is always the victim, lies, brain washes etc. I find my sister-in-law has other medical diagnosis to add to her list. I feel for her children as they have already been brain washed by her. If my brother were to ever divorce her, I think she would bury him in court with stories, lies, which she believes. My brother will defend he til his dying day, so I have had to step back. I have had several confrontations with her (nasty ones) and within a week she seems to have forgotten all that was said, also I have notice when she tells a whopping lie she does it when my brother is not around, huh? I have tried to talk to my brother to no avail she is god in his eyes. I have tried to keep the lines open with my Niece and Nephew and give them outside family support if need be. There is not much else I can do, I have even exposed her to my brother and he just ignored it. It’s funny at family gatherings to hear everyone in our family talk about her, they all see it as well, so I cannot be wrong. Good luck and be glad you did not marry someone like that.
That is interesting. I wonder if you think your brother could be a “mama’s boy”? I’m sorry to hear that you are witnessing this. I also wonder if switching your thoughts from things you see in your brother’s life to something you most want in your life could help ease your pain being close to this. Stories like these (am living one also) are very disturbing, I feel terrible for the folks on both sides so hurt or abandoned in childhood, while we can see them hurting their own children, that they (and often their kids I bet and am witnessing) are erecting these barriers against developing their own healthy individualism covering, likely, for the most powerful parent [or in our case here, the most -pathic, because they see them as the “winner]. I was recently advised I can only give tiny threads to kids around me as parental alienation is in full force and kids around me are being instructed by the spath to be assertive, rudely. I’d wager, and have seen, spaths being urged by parents to be rude, immoral, really ugly. Though switching, one’s only recourse, finding a new home and positive people to surround you, beyond that.
I agree. It would be best to find a new home and move to another state.. Like Florida. And never have to deal with the sociopath again. Your right, pathetic parents urge their children to be buttholes to the other parent. The reason they do this is because they HAVE NO POWER OR CONTROL, of their ex. They are so crazy they don’t even know what a “divorce” means. They cheat and divorce, the expect their ex to come over and hang out with them and their new spouse on holidays. OMG! I can’t imagine spending such a lovely holiday like Christmas (that is suppose to be a time you surround yourself with family and people you love) with the sociopath who has attempted to destroy me. But sociopaths are not in touch with reality and are very delusional. The fact that they think (in their dysfunctional brains) that they are entitled to continue to control their ex spouse for the rest of their life is plain crazy. DIVORCE IS DIVORCE. If you share children divorce is still divorce. When the sociopath wants their ex to come over for Christmas Easter or fathers days then they should have thought of that before theydecided to betray and leave you and divorce.
I do NOT know anyone that spend holidays with a crazy ex spouse. Or even a sane ex spouse. Yeah I want to come to my ex’s house on Christmas and be all chummy and we can just forget the fact they cheated, totaled out the rental car I got for them when they totaled 6 cars before that, and that they slept with every single person in our semi- large community… Oooookkkkayyy! That will happen never
‘the way she mothered her daughter, my patient, came close to destroying the child’s mind.’
I can relate. Mom is still doing it to me even though she is deceased. A quick way to deal with it: when memories of her abuse pop into my head I quickly assign her to a ‘corral’ in my brain. I will say to her, ‘If you can’t love me or treat me with respect then you have to go to the corral’. I do it with my father as well. You can say, ‘I don’t rent brain space to either one of you now’, or “You are children, not adults. My upbringing was that I was being raised by toddlers…instead of real adults like you should have been.” My former counselor applauded this technique.
However, notice the word ‘quick’ in my first paragraph. The untold and invidious abuse from these two people pops up everywhere in my life. It has robbed me of joy, success, any kind of social life and keeping a job. It will probably last my entire life as I am already 62.
Growing up was like living in an emotional and psychological concentration camp.
Reading about verbal/emotional abuse, it feels almost the same as traits of socio- psycho-pathy. Is there a clear delineation between these types of taking advantage of people?
I was starting to think of it as… if a person requests a person to stop hurting them by ex or y, and the person continues hurting you anyway, could lean -pathic?
If a person is hurting you, I’m pretty sure that simply requesting them to stop won’t work……
What you do is you stop, stop being around them, stop responding to them, stop knowing them basically. You don’t need people in your life that hurt you. Everyone deserve a second chance, but if they continue the same old sociopathic behavior. Then to NO contact! I have and my life is better for it. I have peace of mind, and I am happy. After 4/5 years of slander and abuse, I finally smartened up and put my foot down. The abuser is no longer in my life. They still try to contact me, but I know better. I am enjoying living my life right now.
I would never allow such a toxic individual back in ever!!! I got burnt, and I learned my lesson. I am wiser, stronger, and better for it. Now when my abuser text us, we sometimes roll our eyes but laugh anyways. Or when we see there is a text from my abuser, we delete before I can even read it. Never respond.
my OW (husband’s affair partner) seems like a female P… husband is the male P..well, she lies like no one’s business even if, or specially, if it can land other innocent people into trouble.. she stands firmly by her lies… thinks nothing of manipulating married men to help push up her career…nothing of lying to her own husband to carry on an affair with my husband, then has the gumption to call me up and scream at ME… also screams at her husband.. he is scared of her rage he says… still knowing of the affair, he continues to be loyal to her, fights for her… while my husband, though a P himself, has been manipulated into losing his career and reputation by her…she seems to be a more dangerous P than my husband… so yes, the intentions and driving forces are the same for the 2 genders, the manifestations maybe little different in that physical violence maybe less common, seduction and emotional manipulation maybe more common tools…
You are still with your husband after he cheated on you. And he doesn’t defend you when the other woman calls and screams at you? Why?