By | June 6, 2008 95 Comments

A leading polygraph expert discusses psychopathy and how people lie

Last week I ran across the book, Criminal Interrogation: A Modern Format for Interrogating Criminal Suspects Based on the Intellectual Approach, by Warren D. Holmes. The author spent his early career in law enforcement and now runs a private polygraph company in Miami Florida. He has interviewed many psychopaths including murderers and child molesters. I was anxious to read this book and understand a law enforcement officer’s view of psychopaths. I was happy to see that the book is very well written and I would recommend it to Lovefraud readers who want to know how a law enforcement officer approaches interrogation of psychopaths/sociopaths.

Many Lovefraud readers have expressed the desire to know how to “out” a psychopath/sociopath. In this book Mr. Holmes gives his ideas about this subject. In his Chapter “How People Lie” he discusses the neurotic liar and compares lies told by these people to psychopathic liars. He has also listed and categorized what he calls “liar statements.” These are statements that signal someone is lying. In reading his list, I found that psychopaths/sociopaths use many of these.

Here are his categories of liar statements:
A. Loophole statements like, “To the best of my knowledge.” By using these statements a person can easily have wiggle room to excuse any lies he/she tells.
B. Over-sell expressions like “honestly” and “Believe me.”
C. Thinking time expressions like “can you repeat the question.” Liars use these to give them time to think up lies.
D. Brooklyn Bridge remarks “I need to know if I did it.”
E. Offense statements like “Are you calling me a liar.”

The book discusses each of these in detail. If you have spent time with a psychopath I’m sure you have heard every one of these. Although he is not a psychologist, Mr Holmes discusses his theory of why neurotic, almost sociopathic people lie and what tactics they use. This discussion might be beneficial for those who have a family member who has sociopathic traits but who may not have the full disorder.

The book also discusses what it is like to interview a psychopath. Mr Holmes says what I have said here on this blog and in my books, that is that psychopaths/sociopaths are preoccupied with power and dominance. They show this in every aspect of their behavior. They violate personal space, make inappropriately personal remarks and attempt to control the interview. He says, “When they enter my office, they generally jump into my secretary’s lap.”

I am very grateful for the fact that Mr. Holmes also granted me a brief interview. He is a friendly and wise man, who is certainly an expert on psychopathy/sociopathy. The question I most wanted to ask him was what he thought about the estimates of only 20% of people in prison being psychopaths. He agreed with me that this estimate is too low. He also expressed concern that there is an increase in the prevalence of psychopathy in America.

I asked him if he had any words of wisdom for Lovefraud readers regarding sociopaths/psychopaths and avoiding them. He said that we should always be suspicious of any person who tries too hard to sell himself. He said to beware of people who are overpowering. That sounds like great advice and right on the money to me!

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Dr. Leedom, Very interesting…but on the mark, my x SP
used to brag about “interviews” and how you have to sit in the right seat to control the scene, repeat certain things the
interviewer asked, if the interviewer sat back he would sit back and so on..I remember thinking it was kind of creepy
the way he explained this to me, but I also thought he had
taken some class in how to interview right or something, he
was overpowering with everyone and extremely cocky, at
the time I thought it was great self confidence ha, the liar
statements, heard every one plus some more…..I took psych
in nursing school and had a “borderline” pt, she freaked me
out in my short 20 minutes with her…pretty much the same
thing I had invited into my home my bed and to share a life
with me and my children…what a wake up call, thank you so much for this site!!!

Ox Drover

Dr. Leedom: Wonderful post, I will order the book.

Invigorated: ANOTHER nurse? LOL it seems so many of us are nurses or others in the “healing professions.”

Someone e mailed me a list years ago of “how to detect a lie” and the list was quite good and contained all of the above mentioned things, one that my Trojan Horse P used almost 100% of the time was to AVOID answering the qutestion directly. When I asked him “Did my mother give you the money for the truck?” He replied. “I have friends in TExas.”

When I finally confronted him about his answer, which I defined as a LIE, he vigorously defended himself by saying the statement “I have friends in TExas” was a true statement, therefore he did not “lie,” he just didn’t answer the question I ASKED. Of course, I believe a “half truth” is a “whole lie” and that a lie=deception=lie.

So now when I am talking to people I do keep in mind the “lie red flags” as well as body language, and words vs. body language, and still it is difficult to detect liars, but I did make one “rule” for myself and that is ONE LIE AND YOU ARE OUT OF MY CIRCLE OF TRUST.

Thanks for bringing this essay, Dr. Leedom.


Dear Oxdrover, I had to laugh, not at you, but at the reply, its like the perfect deflection. I asked my ex (whom I suspected of setting me up to meet one of his girlfriends in the market) ‘When we went to the market, did you meet anyone you knew?’ He replied ‘Who would I know in Camden market’. Also when I asked him how he had gone through £600 in less than a week, he said ‘I dont know, I dont keep receipts’. In my mind, these were all NON REPLIES, because they didnt actually make sense, they didnt DIRECTLY ANSWER the questions. When I asked him, ‘Why havent you text me in two days?’ he replied ‘Why didnt you text me?’. His replies were just ways of batting the ball back to me.


I was always inundated with the words, sometime, someplace, something, someone, maybe, could be, we’ll see, wait and see, wasn’t me, I don’t remember, I never said that, etc. Lots of uncommitted comments, evasive words, statements that couldn’t be checked out that most likely were lies. I finally reached the end of the line and said I quit. I no longer want to speak to this man and have him in my life. I’m tired of inane conversations that have no substance. I don’t want to ask questions because I know the answer will be very vague. There really isn’t any sense in wasting my time with a person who lives in a vacuum.

Ox Drover

Beverly, it is funny, isn’t it?!!! Don’t worry about “laughing at” me, I do it all the time and so do my sons! Laughing at mama is their biggest joy in the world I think. LOL

Yes, the Trojan HOrse P was sooooo good at “evading” the answer, but he didn’t see that as a “lie.” Well I DO SEE THAT AS A LIE. Now that is one of the things I look for when I ask someone a question.

Ann Landers had a good “come back” and “non answer” for people who asked “nosey questions” that you didn’t want to answer, like “how much money do you make?” Her response was “Now, WHY would you ask such a question?” Turn it back on them instead of answering. I use that stock phrase quite a bit when folks ask questions that are NUNN’YA (none of yer bizness, jerk!)

Another one of Ann’s that I like is when someone is gossiping about someone and saying “tacky” things about someone, when they pause to get their breath you say “Well, that is strange, they always speaks so WELL OF YOU.”

I miss Ann Lander’s funny snippets. The “new” Ann and Abby don’t have the pizzzaz that the older ones had. LOL


Dear OxDrover. Ha Ha ha. If only I WAS THAT CLEVER!!!


OxDrover, Im still laughing.My mother who had that kind of ‘steel boot’ humour, would say similar. It was a way of SHUTTING PEOPLE UP!!

Ox Drover


My husband was the pure master at the appropriate “one line come back” that could shut people up, oh, he cracked me up so many times with his humor. Though one time I did threaten to kill him if he ever embarassed me again like that. LOL

While he could dish it out, though, he wasn’t always able to “take it” back. ONe time when the kids were teenagers we were at the dinner table and one of the boys told some tasteless joke that wasn’t even funny, and my husband, who had a HUGE NOSE, reached up with his hand and held his nose to show his distaste at the “smell” of the joke. My P-son, who also has a cutting sense of humor replied, “Well, you can’t hold THAT NOSE with just ONE HAND.” I cracked up, literally hysterically rolling and I couldn’t even get my breath for laughing, and I kept on and on and couldn’t stop, and before long I was braying like a jack ass being strangled trying to laugh, stop laughing and breathe at the same time, all unsuccesfully, and the madder my husband got, the more I laughed. The more I laughed the madder he got, and the more I laughed at him. Whew! Fortunately for us, we loved each other and didn’t hold grudges, but even he eventually got to where he could laugh about that story.

After 9/11 attack, my P-son started calling me “Osama my mama”—which actually is kind of cute. I am sure it is NOT in jest though as he doesn’t like me setting limits for him. My other sons though call me that now just as a joke and we all laugh.

I figure if you can’t laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at. So we spend a lot o f time laughing at ourselves and each other’s foibles. It’s good to be able to laugh again I think, and to not take too much too seriously. There is enough really serious stuff in the world that we can’t laugh at, that ANY opportunity to see the humor, even gallows humor, in life gives us a bit of a respite from the bad times.

Used Brauer

My ex-sociopath-husband’s favorite answer to all of my “why did you lie” questions was “I don’t know, I just DID”. Surprised, I hadn’t heard that response since 3rd grade. He was totally serious!

Not being that familiar with SP’s at that time, I kept asking for an answer and he would get furious. I thought this guy was nuts! But it was too late. I had already married him.


My ex was a sociopath who only defrauded foreign-born Asian women. Lovefraud helped me understand what he did to me after he got arrested by the police after I was registered as a missing person. He took all my money and messed up my credits. The scary thing is that he only targets foreign-born Asians so that they should mess up their visa status and should go back to their country.
I am his 4th victim and I am the only one who can still stay in the US with the help of US detective who found out about this horrible person and arrested him.

Asians, in general, trust partners once they are engaged. We don’t generally play with wedding or engagement. Once we are engaged, we trust that person because we don’t usually believe that that kind of bad person exists. Yes… But that kind of person exists.

He lied that he had cancer. He was very good in making fake documents. His cancer diagnosis letter was sent to me by Fedex with a legal letter format (with Boeing logo). He made me to scared to death by accusing me that he would stay with me if I had cancer. He took money from me and from my parents over cancer treatment.

He lied that he was an ex-CIA, and had a gun. He made me afraid to ask anybody to help me and force me not to check any of my bank accounts and contact to anybody.

He made me to sign the lease and buy the car under my name.
With my money and his lie, he never paid any bill and now I am receiving phone calls from the car company like everyday.

Yesterday, I found from his stuff that he did not pay any of rent, and I received an eviction note.

I cry everyday with anger and frustration that I don’t know what to do. I am in the us to study and for my dream.
Now, I am facing to declare a personal bankruptcy because I have anything even to pay my study in the US.

I’ve been received all the scholarship and assistantship so far to study in the US. I worked real hard like everyday. I didn’t know that there are that many people in the US like him.

I only have two more years to study to get my degree. However, with my mess, I don’t know whether I will be able to even find a job. Well, I could not even find a place to stay because of eviction note that I didn’t even know.

I really don’t know what to do.
Donna helps me to understand this situation over emails and lovefraud helps me to see I am not the only person who have hard time because of sociopath.

But still, I have a dream and I worked really hard with all my effort. How can he target a person from other countries? He even accused me that what he could take from me because I am a poor student whenever I asked him to answer about financial issues.

My life is in a mess…..
My story doesn’t sound right.
People accused me that “you are a smart kid that’s why you could study in your level…. but how you didn’t know that he was a bad person when you signed on your lease and car?”

I really want to commit suicide with my shame


There is no shame here. Your sociopath would want you to commit suicide, but that would be him really winning. I am sorry you have had such a hard time in the united States. There are many more sociopath/psychopaths in the US then in Asia. Partly because of our society, and partly because of genetics.

Sociopaths shame us, that is what they do. My ex sociopath left me pregnant at 6 months. I have had so many people tell me I really made a mistake! And I should have done this. And “boy did you mess up”. The sociopaths try and shame us. But it is not our fault! We are trusting, good people HL. Don’t forget it. It is just money. Your life is worth way more then this.

The shame does make you think of suicide. I would be lying if I told you it didn’t cross my mind too. But, we are all experiencing it. We are with you ok! We understand.

You are a good person, don’t forget it! You don’t deserve what happened to you!


Committing suicide is COWARDLY. You have a duty to your self to get out of this mess. Bankrupcy can be fixed….it’s temporary. Sub-let a room from another studemt, finish school.

Their is no honor in giving up. Channel your anger and sorrow into your studies. And later…help someone else. There is no shame in being victim, but shame in taking your life. You would HURT US, HURT the schoool and everyone who sees you as competent…you owe it to everyone, to keep studying- to overcome this monster.

You can do this.


Don’t be ashamed of having a kind and trusting heart. We are all still trying to find out how and why we got involved with a sociopath.
I am still paying on a car that I bought for my sociopath and also credit card debt. Sociiopaths manipulate us and lie to us.

You are not alone. We have all put our trust in a person who turned out to be only an illusion. I thought that this man was my future. I saw the two of us growing old together.

He took another woman on a “family” cruise and I bought him his tux and suits.

He is the one who should be ashamed of the way that he used you.

Ox Drover

Dear HL,

The shame is HIS, not yours, but because he has no conscience, he does not feel his shame. You should NOT feel his shame, because YOU did not do anything bad. Shame is for the bad person. You are a good person. Please promise us you will not harm yourself.

You are worth so much more than he is. What he did to you was wrong. You do not deserve to be treated like that, and all the things he told you were lies…LIES. You could not have known they were lies, so you have nothing to BE ashamed of.

Take one day at a time, and you will come through this nightmare, and have a good life. Post here and we will support you in every way we know how. You are worth it! I wish you all the good luck in the world and success with your studies. I do know it is difficult, but you are stronger than you know! He is an evil person, but he cannot overcome you now. He is gone.


You summed it up: he just lied, all the time. No need for a preface…

As I read this post, it struck me as odd that I recall few of the mentioned ‘evasions’. But my guess is he did use them – he has been nothing but textbook up until now. He was my best friend (I thought), the love of my life (I thought) and I spent almost 7 hours a day with him, 6 days a week for 3 years. I have been struggling to recall anything resembling half lies. Nope. The guy just LIED. No shame. Just lied. Story teller, extraordinaire. He was, however, brilliant at “I didn’t say that” and deflection. If there is anything I can look back and laugh on, it is the CONTRIVED faces. The acting, oh. the ACTING. Sadly, I caught it many, many times, and managed to dismiss it with the next ‘wonderful’ thing that he did. Denial.

Ox Drover

Dr. Robert Hare mentioned in his book, “Without Conscience” that the psychopath will lie in the face of EVIDENCE that he is lying. What struck me so odd about this was that the only time before puberty that my P-son was caught in a lie, at age 11, even with the other child present, and the parents of the other child there, with the EVICENCE that he had stolen money and an uncashed check from my purse to trade for a radio that he wanted, HE STILL DENIED, DENIED DENIED.

Later, when he went to jail for the first time he DENIED, DENIED DENIED his guilt. When he went to jail and then prison for murder–the evidence was OVERWHELMING that he was guilty, and yet, he DENIED, DENIED, DENIED.

Years after the fact, almost 20, when he had STILL denied that he had stolen a gun from my dad when he was 15 or 16, he still DENIED DENIED DENIED. When my dad was dying and I begged my son to write him a letter and admit it, even if he didn’t take the gun, just so my dad could die in peace about it, he wrote a letter and blamed the theft on his best friend, who was dead–and said “oh, I shold have told you”—DENY DENY DENY even in the face of the truth, and even refusing to tell the truth to a dying man. My dad, pretty perceptive he was, read the letter, made a spitting sound and threw it down.

Only now, 20 years after the fact, does he admit that he is guilty of murder, and actually PROUD OF IT, and that it was “more horrible than even the cops know.”

Hare says that they can’t SEE the contradiction in what they are saying and what you are looking at as evidence. I can’t understand that, can’t get my head around it. Because if I was “caught” in a crime, I might start to figure some way to lie my way out of it, but I sure wouldn’t DENY it. I might find some reason to justify or excuse my action, but at that point I would quit denying it, because I could see that NO ONE would believe a denial, but some how they don’t “get it” that you are not going to belive them in the FACE OF EVIDENCE that is overwhelmingly damning.

From reading the stories here on this blog though, I know that my son is not “unique” in this type of lying in the face of evidence, and sometimes I guess they lie so strongly that we ignore the evidence and give in to their lies….maybe because WE wouldn’t continue to deny deny deny in the face of evidence we can’t see that they not only can but DO.

HL, PLEASE HEAR ME. Hummingbird and OXdrover are right. Your pain is so fresh and I remember that pain so well. The shock. The shame. What I gave up for this man. The cost. My child was hurt and I am still trying to make peace with the guilt. My addiction to the man has had ramifications beyond measure for myself and my child. She was 12 when the relationship began and she is now 15. I lost 3 year of my child life, in many regards. I was not the mother that she needed during the transition from childhood to adolescence. Her life was altered because of my preoccupation with this man that turned out to be a monster. When I came out of my fog and discovered the truth, I was looking for the nearest bridge. If I were not I mother, I may have found it. It has been a year and 2 months now and I need you to hear me when I tell you that all of the ‘lame sounding’ cliche’s are true. The truest of all is… TIME – it heals wounds. I had a counselor tell me, in the beginning… “It is going to take you atleast a year to recover from this. And she was right. I spent a year in a kind of pain I never knew existed. I cried buckets. I would think I was making progress and then be leveled by yet another piece of information about him. I never thought the day would come that I would be okay with the truth. I felt stupid. I wasn’t stupid. I was a good soul with a trusting heart. I thought, and told him many times, that he had a beautiful soul. His soul is ugly. It was not my fault. He was good – he was d**n good. They all are. A year passed a couple of months back. I turned a corner recently. I mean REALLY turned a corner. I spent a year TELLING myself that I was better off since he was gone. It was only in the last month that I woke up one morning and knew that I wasn’t just telling myself that anymore. I believed it. I knew it. What everyone had been telling me from day 1, and what I had been telling myself for many months, had finally sunk in. I wasn’t just telling myself anymore. I knew it. With every fiber of my being. Ding Dong, the Psycho’s gone. It was NOT MY FAULT. Did I have any responsibility??? YES. Am I a bad person??? NOOOOO. I was vulnerable and I had no clue that there were people walking around who were full of such evil. Until you have an encounter like this, WHO DOES??? I have reached a place that I could never have imagined a year ago. My love for God and for myself have grown in a way that I am not sure would have ever occurred had I not gone through this trial. The pain was unbearable and it may have been the longest year of my life. But I have come out on the other side and YOU WILL TOO. I am living proof that shattered dreams can be the beginning to a journey that will transform you. You are a butterfly, Girlfriend. As I write this, I remember being in your shoes. I remember everyone telling me the things that I am telling you and I couldn’t get it. So it hurts me to think of you reading this and knowing that you probably won’t get it either – not yet. I friend told me recently (because yes, no matter how ‘healed’ we think we are, we still feel ‘a ha! moments’), You know how lucky your are. “You could have never handled him. He would have swallowed you whole”. And I thought, “Thank you, Lord”, because he chewed me up and spit me out. He would, indeed, have swallowed me whole. HL, you are not a failure. This is not your fault. Any fault you recognize (we ALL have some that we can recognize and address in the future – this makes us better people, which is the point of trials) is FORGIVABLE. God forgives you and you need to forgive yourself. God loves you and we love you. Love yourself, HL. I wish I could share my story with you, but I fear that my ex/s knows about this website, which is my I am cautious with what I share. But I have lost so much and I have so many fears about the future, but suicide is NOT the answer. The sun will shine tomorrow. The tides will turn. TIME will do its work. YOU WILL BE OKAY!!! How do I know??? Because I am okay, and I could never have seen that a year ago. But time did its work and I am okay and that is how I know. I didn’t mean to write a novel here, but you need to know that there really is light at the end of this tunnel. BTW, you mentioned Fed EX. Are you in Memphis, HL???


Bird, Hummingbird1418, OxDrover, and Holywatersalt,

Thank you so much for encouraging me and understanding me. My school people and my detective have helped me so much so far so that I can at least restore my visa status.

When he was arrested, I was staying here illegally because he messed up my visa. My school and my detective helped me to enroll the classes again and get my valid visa.

Yes… Even though I feel like commiting suicide, I think about them and try to survive from this mess.

I even talked my mom about and how much people here are encouraging each other. Thank you so much!!! I will post often and let you guys know how I am doing. It was the first time that so many people actually understand that I was not stupid but he was so skilled to manipulate me. He will go to the hell!

Thank you!!!!!


I would love to read this book and will try ASAP. Did the book say anything about sociopaths that could manipulate a polygraph machine? I know the testers uses control questions to test reliability of the subject. But can one lie and lie and still not be detected as lying? We know that polygraph test are not admissible in a court of law base on the fact that they are not 99.99 percent precise (from what I heard) and therefore inadmissible in courts for evidences. Studies have showed that innocence people “fail” polygraph test because they are under stress and can throw off the reading. While “sociopaths” can be unaffected by this “stressful” situation and therefore show no bumps or beeps on the polygraph machine.

Ox Drover

When my P-son was in 7th grade he made a crude lie detector, using only skin conductivity as an indicator of some sort of reaction to a question or a word. It actually worked.

Before the science fair and afterwards we played with his “lie detector” at home. One of the “tricks” he would do is that he would give you (the victim of the joke) a stack of cards with one word written on each one. He said there was a special card in the stack that you would react to and he would tell you which one. The words were like Ice Cream, Rock, etc. and after 10 or 12 of these you would come on a card that said “Shit” and not expecting this, of course the skin conductivity would go up because you were surprised. Of course he could tell when you got to the planted “surprise” card.

Of course this would usually only work once on each victim because there would be no “surprise” the next time. We also tried to fool the “lie detector” and he didn’t seem to be any better or any worse than fooling it than his brother and I were. At that age, though,I had still only had one “episode” of P-type behavior prior to that.

I have no doubt now though, 25 years later he would not “react” to a lie detector. I also think he might be able to FAKE reactions, though, as he has practiced mediation for years, as I have, and I can raise the rate or lower the rate of my heart significantly, and raise the temperature in the palms of my hands, I can also lower my blood pressure quite low. In a medical meditation class I took at the Uof A for Medical Sciences, we had a “first timer” there who was able in the first session to significantly raise the temperature in her palms.

I’m not as good as some people, one of the teachers of this class had cut an artery in an accident and actually stopped the bleeding until he could get to help–I can’t keep my concentration under “great stress” like that. I wasn’t able to control the pain in child birth either–just couldn’t keep my concentration, but I know women who could and did. I know that there is remarkable “control” if you learn to exercise it. My own level of expertise is paltry compared to others, more of a parlor trick, but I don’t doubt for a minute that my son could “fake” a lie detector test–appear to react to test questions and NOT react to the real lies.

My P-son has spent considerable time in solitary confinement, which is the “worst” punishment that can be given out in prisons today, legally anyway. He swears that he doens’t mind it as they do have books available and he meditates to pass the time and does yoga. I also think that because of his arrogance and feeling “superior” to the rest of the inmates, he is glad to get away from them into relative quiet. The only time I have known of him to even get “upset” about beiing put into solitary was once when he got caught with a cell phone in his cell and the major threw him (illegally actually) in to administrative segregation which is reserved for inmates who have violently attacked a staff member. He was not allowed any clothing except his undershorts, no reading or writing material and not even a tooth brush for two weeks. One of his inmate friends wrote to me and informed me of his whereabouts or even I would not have known. When I complained to the warden about the illegal detension, the warden released him back into general population and restored his “personal possessions” minus several hundred dollars worth of boot making tools and exotic leathers.

Inmates if they have the cash or barter materials can get almost any kind of contraband into a prison by bribing guards. This is a “cottage industry” in itself. It is the “happy hunting grounds” for a P to be in prison, they have lots of drama and intrigue.

It was a few weeks after that that I went NC with my son.


Dear HL and all, We should all take a deep breath, especially, if we are still in the stage of humiliation and grief about all we have given of ourselves to someone so unworthy. Take a deep breath and think about what it really means that the SP can fool a lie detector!

This is a machine, that measures intricate physical clues when an untruth is told. It is accepted as a valuable tool in law enforcement. And the sociopath can fool the machine!

We are not lie detectors. We are loving open human beings. Vulnerable sometimes perhaps, needy sometimes, idealistic, trusting, loyal, committed to our word. There is no shame in believing the lies of such a person.

Just recently, with all my radar up, after months and years of agony, after months reading up on SP’s and going to Lovefraud for solace, I allowed myself to believe a very specific e-mail on an issue I requested confirmation of in writing. Yes it involved money, part of our agreement to split the sale of assets etc. And WHAMMO. Do dice. Lies, assurances, and more lies. He even lied to the lawyers involved, and they believed him. No problem.

So I finally went NC, the last vestige of communication was allowing e-mail on complicated business stuff we are still both involved with. Blocked his e-mail address. And I love it that Yahoo sends a message that says “recipient does not like sender”.

We have to remember that there are 6 billion people on this planet, and only four percent are SP’s. Get out emotionally, get away, protect yourself and don’t look back. No matter how good it felt when you believed the lies.

At present I have a dear friend who has already been taken, and is being groomed to be taken again by my ex. I have warned all I can. My friend is deterimined to see the “good in everyone”. He is impressed with the stoic, self contained, self assured nature of my ex. Even tho’ he KNOWS he has been lied to and cheated out of a large sum of money.

I am sure all of you can anticipate the outcome.

We all want to believe that a person could not be that deceptive, could not FAKE that much.

HL until you have had an experience like this, there is no way you could have known.

I bought the BS for 20 of the 27 years of my relationship with one, and even then was totally fooled somemore. My denial of reality, while faulty and not in my own interests, and deeply damaging to my wellbeing, were still a testament to my loyalty, my belief in “goodness”, some mysterious decency he convinced me he had. I am much wiser now, but not ashamed.

Keep us posted HL. I send you good thoughts.


OxDrover says:

{{”.one that my Trojan Horse P used almost 100% of the time was to AVOID answering the qutestion directly. When I asked him “Did my mother give you the money for the truck?” He replied. “I have friends in TExas.”

When I finally confronted him about his answer, which I defined as a LIE, he vigorously defended himself by saying the statement “I have friends in TExas” was a true statement, therefore he did not “lie,” he just didn’t answer the question I ASKED. Of course, I believe a “half truth” is a “whole lie” and that a lie=deception=lie.}}

Beverly says:
{{. I asked my ex (whom I suspected of setting me up to meet one of his girlfriends in the market) ’When we went to the market, did you meet anyone you knew?’ He replied ’Who would I know in Camden market’. Also when I asked him how he had gone through £600 in less than a week, he said ’I dont know, I dont keep receipts’. In my mind, these were all NON REPLIES, because they didnt actually make sense, they didnt DIRECTLY ANSWER the questions. When I asked him, ’Why havent you text me in two days?’ he replied ’Why didnt you text me?’. His replies were just ways of batting the ball back to me.}}

OxDrover and Beverly, these stories are so typical that I had to laugh too! This kind of pathology reminds me of the little kid that Bill Cosby talks about in one of his comedy routines, the kid that doesn’t yet know that sound travels and that the parent can hear him opening the cookie package in the kitchen. The kid thinks the parent doesn’t know he’s getting into the cookie package because he cannot SEE the parent in the other room! The child isn’t aware that just because he can’t see the parent and the parent can’t see him, that there are not other ways to determine what is going on, like the loud sound of the rustling plastic of the cookie package!

It’s also characteristic of these kinds of pathology that they always think they are so much smarter ”“ or at least that everyone else is a dumb cluck and can’t see through them. And even when you warn them in various ways that you are “onto” them, they don’t get it; they will keep on playing the game as though they are certain that the next bamboozling is going to work.

OxDrover says:
{{Dr. Robert Hare mentioned in his book, “Without Conscience” that the psychopath will lie in the face of EVIDENCE that he is lying.}}

Again, reminds me of the little kid Bill Cosby talks about who, when caught with his hand in the cookie package says: “I was getting the cookie for YOU!”

That’s classic!

It’s funny, but it highlights what Cleckley noted about psychopaths: their almost infantile interaction with the world. I’ve written about this recently in my article “A Structural Theory of Psychopathy” here:

Liane says:

{{Mr Holmes discusses his theory of why neurotic, almost sociopathic people lie and what tactics they use. This discussion might be beneficial for those who have a family member who has sociopathic traits but who may not have the full disorder.}}

That sounds like very useful information to have since it appears to make a certain distinction. “neurotic, almost sociopathic people”. Does this mean that the author is making a clear distinction between sociopathy and psychopathy?

Cleckley points out that neurotic people are the exact opposite of psychopathic individuals. So, if we discuss someone who is “neurotic, almost sociopathic”, we must be talking about a person who is not really a psychopath, just a severely wounded individual, in which case they can certainly be sociopathic but not psychopathic. Cleckley discusses this opposition at some length, even giving a handy little table to show the differences. He remarks:

{{The true psychopaths personally observed have usually been free, or as free as the general run of humanity, from real symptoms of psychoneurosis. The psychoneurotic patient, furthermore, is usually anxious to get over his symptoms, while the psychopath does not show sincere evidence of regretting his conduct or of intending to change it. (Cleckley, 258, 259)}}

Liane says:
{{This is what Mr. Ward said about psychopaths and polygraphs. Since they do not react the test is invalid. It is not that they “fool” the test. Because they do not react to control questions either. If the test is invalid due to non-reactivity it is usually psychopath or an effect of psychotropic medication.}}

This is a topic that has come up among our researchers recently and several interesting web links were shared. Helen Smith, a forensic psychologist, wrote a blog entry about it here:

There are some interesting comments to this post, including one from a guy named George Maschke which is worth reading. He provides some interesting background to the polygraph topic and how the tests are set up and how they can be fooled. He also gives a link to which is just chock full of fun facts and links. I’m not sure that I agree with his views entirely, but it is worth a look.

This site pretty much asserts that there is no support for the idea that a psychopath has any special or enhanced ability to “beat” or “fool” the polygraph. (I admit that I sure thought they could, but apparently not. It may even be that what is measured when a psychopath lies are the body’s experiencing a “thrill” about lying because they are conscious of their lies).

And this item: tells us that psychopaths pose no problem for polygraph examiners who know their stuff. The guy writing it makes a distinction between psychopaths and sociopaths which is in line with what Mr. Ward seems to be saying.

Then, there is this item: where it seems that the dispute about whether or not polygraphs detect lies at all is still ongoing. They say that “Most psychologists agree that there is little evidence that polygraph tests can accurately detect lies.”

This one is a more recent study and they call the polygraph “Trial by Ordeal.” That reminds me of an article I wrote some time back: The Cult of the Plausible Lie It’s got a lot of good quotes and examples in it of lies and liars at all levels of society. Since nearly everyone here has been subjected to, or harmed by the society set up by this “cult,” you might want to read it. For example, I think that everyone here knows that the truth – when twisted by good liars, can always make an innocent person look bad – especially if he is honest and admits that he has faults.

If someone is telling the simple truth, and the other side is lying through their teeth, the basic assumption that the truth lies between the testimony of the two sides always shifts the advantage to the lying side and away from the side telling the truth. Under most circumstances, this shift put together with the fact that the truth is going to also be twisted in such a way as to bring detriment to the innocent person, results in the advantage always resting in the hands of liars.

The social system that “trains” our thinking is set up like the legal system. People are taught to assume that, in any conflict, one side is lying one way, and the other is lying the other way, and people can just form opinions about which side is telling the truth. They are taught that the truth will lie somewhere between two extremes.

Those who have been victimized by a pathological individual know that this is a wonderfully plausible lie. In such cases, we all know that one side is lying through his/her teeth and the other side is telling the truth and is an innocent victim.

The sad fact is that our culture is so permeated with this “legal argument” system that it extends into our daily experience: the one who is the slickest at using the system for convincing a group of people of something, is the one who is believed. Very few people take the time to obtain hard facts by carefully studying any and all information about a situation.

A specific example of this problem can be found in a courtroom where juries are prohibited by law from knowing anyone involved in the trial. If the defendant is a good person who is being set up and framed, people who know him well and who have had much opportunity to interact with him over a long period of time and observe him would have much more trouble accepting lies told about him. If the jurors knew the prosecutor and knew him to be a bullying liar, they might have trouble believing the lies he was telling. If the jurors knew the defendant, and know him to be a trouble making villain they might be more likely to convict him.

By the same standards, if a person who is guilty is accused of a crime that he DID commit, it is all too easy to get off. Corrupt lawyers, ignorant “experts,” and blind judges let guilty people literally get away with murder all the time.

But, none of the conditions conducive to finding the TRUTH prevail in a courtroom even if we have been conditioned to think that we have the “best legal system in the world.” It is not much different than “Trial by Ordeal.”

In the earliest days of this “legal system” there was a form of “justice” called “trial by ordeal”. An example of trial by ordeal was holding a red hot iron to a defendant’s tongue. The plausible lie used to justify this behavior was: if the defendant was telling a lie they would have a dry mouth and would be burned by the iron – while a truthful person would have a moist mouth and would be protected.

The fact is a NORMAL person who is telling the truth would most definitely have a dry mouth from fear, while a psychopath, who is incapable of feeling fear, would be the one with the moist mouth!!!

If we change our assumptions (which is a lot easier to do after we have been victimized by a pathological!), we can think that in MANY instances, one side is totally innocent, honest, and telling the truth. It is obvious that lying does an innocent defendant no good; what lie can he tell? If he is innocent, the only lie he can tell is to falsely confess “I did it.”

On the other hand, lying is nothing but good for the liar. He can declare that “I didn’t do it” and accuse another of doing it; all the while the innocent person is saying “I didn’t do it” and is telling the truth. But, because he experiences fear and other emotions, he can be driven to act in very neurotic ways, even telling stupid lies to try to protect himself. That is also childish behavior because a child with emotions WILL lie to protect himself from punishment!!!

The brutal truth is that the our social, cultural, and legal systems are all about making people helpless then hammering them without mercy – all the while involving everyone in the illusion that right prevails.

But then, most of us who have been victimized by pathology know that.


Thanks Dr. Leedom

This is what I thought might happen when giving a polygraphs test to an psychopaths.

Ox Drover


Great post as always.

One of the things you said bout “the truth being in the middle” is something that we seem to be taught in gradeschool

“There are TWO sides to every story.” Of course that infers that the truth lies in the middle. In reality, while there ARE two sides to every story, it doesn’t mean that they are BOTH valid.

“It takes two to fight”—no it only takes ONE to fight, and another to be the victim. Two kids on the play ground scrapping, doesn’t mean that one of them did not attackk the other one entirely unprovoked.

You are absolutely right about the “justice” and “legal” systems in our country. Early on in history, the jury would be chosen from those that knew the two parties or knew the defendents (as most people in a community knew each other) and of course that leaves the chance that one of the jury members is a “friend” of the defendent and will unjustly vote for them.

In the trial of Aaron Burr for treason, the judge was his friend, and made every effort to get him acquited although there was NO doubt that Burr WAS guilty of treason. BTW I think Burr was a psychpath, “delux model.”

Unfortunately, many politicians are psychopaths IMHO…and I can still run the “tape” in my head of Bill Clinton staring the camera and angryly stating “I did NOT have sex with THAT Woman…”—the “definition” of the “sex” they used had HER HAVING SEX WITH HIM, but he didn’t have sex with her, so “technically” he didn’t “lie.” DUH!??? LIE IN THE FACE OF EVIDENCE.

I think your comment about them lying in the face of evidence makes them like a child with his hand in the cookie jar, is so right on. Their concepts ARE like children about what the evidence shows and that they can “lie” their way out of it–like you said, “I’m getting a cookie for YOU” LOL How TRUE, how TRUE.

As far as the validity of the polygraph, I do think it is more like the “trial by ordeal” than otherwise, and that the person being tested’s BELIEF in its validity is important. It doesn’t measure specific emotions, but physical reactions to emotion.

My late husband took a polygraph once which he flunked badly because he was EMOTIONALLY upset even though he was telling the TRUTH. His emotions about the truth made his reading “show up” as a lie because his blood pressure, breathing, heart rate and skin conductivity went UP, not from lying but from believing strongly about the truth.

I am glad that they are not admitted as evidence in court, and I hope they never will be. The questions about how to always detect lies has been with us since the dawn of man, and I imagine will always be with us until we can figure out a way to mind read.

Your comments about our justice system favoring the liar are so true. Good post. Thanks for the links as well.


Dear Laura, I love reading your posts and the above one made me chuckle in places!!!

Just alst night there was show on a psychopathmurderer who beat a polygraph.And seeing him on tape was surreal, so laid backk.Too laid back. And then they showed a pic taken at a family function the same day another had raped and murdered a woman. Same day–happy, family man. I am not shocked, but I can imgaine how those unaware of psychos react.

Oh and this: another registered and ran in the race to honor the victim of the crime. Yeah, the murderer ran in the race for the victim. Same behavior we see on a “small scale.” Make no excuses, these men ( and women) are psychos- capable of anything as Oxie knows.

Ox Drover

Some of them are “soooo convincing” and others are soooooo unable to SEE how UNconvincing their lies are, just as the five year old can’t SEE how NO ONE would believe their lie that they weren’t in the cookie jar when you heard the rattle of the lid and actually caught them with their hand in it.

That’s why I think little kids get the idea that we can “mind read” when they lie to us because they can’t see that we HEARD the cookie jar lid.

It is odd to me that I actually remember the first deliberate lie I ever told…I could not have been more than three as we were still living at my grandmother’s house. She was going to the garden to work which was just barely out of sight of the yard and wanted me to quit my play and go with her so she could watch me. I said I didn’t want to go and she said “If you don’t go with me, you will run across the highway to play with the other kids.” Up until that moment I hadn’t even thought about doing such a thing, but at that point I had the idea and INTENDED TO DO IT if I could get her to go without me. I looked her right in the face and said “No, I won’t do that” knowing full well I intended to do so. She took me at my word, and sure enough, as soon as she was out of line of sight, I took off and crossed the highway to go play with the neighbor kids. Of course when she came back, she KNEW where I was and came and got me, and I remember that she “switched” me all the way home on the legs with a small weeping willow branch–LOL.

Why that stuck in my mind I don’t know, and I never could figure out WHY she so quickly knew where I was. LOL

The first time I remember being lied TO was when I was about that same age. My mom had told me when I was a little over 2 that my baby cousin was born witout any teeth and the last bottle that I had would feed him and asked me to give it to him. I said OK. Later, I was climbing in the cabinets in my grandmother’s kitchen and I found the BOTTLE and realized I had BEEN LIED TO. I was angry, and got the bottle down and put milk in it and sucked on it. It tasted like old rubber and I was so disappointed. I was probably nearly 4 when I found the bottle.

After that I can’t remember lying to my parents or grandparents, or being lied to either. Later, as an adult, when I found out that people frequently lied, I was somewhat disilusioned, but tended to take people at their word, and become irate when I discovered a lie.

My own children were not frequent liars and when I would discover a “lie”–such as pretending a tummy ache to get out of something, I usually stopped that with a natural consequence. If you are “sick” you CAN stay home from school or whatever, BUT since you are so “sick” that you can’t go, it is better if you lie in bed, in your room with the lights out, nothing to read or play with and “rest.”

If they really WERE ill, they had no problem with this, but if they were just pretending (once my P son put the thermometer under the hot water tap and had a “fever” of 106 degrees with a suspiciously cool forehead. LOL) they soon got bored with their “day off from school” or whatever it was they wanted to avoid. Later, when they were in Jr. High I would occasionally give them a “mental health day off” from school or other things IF THEY WERE HONEST WITH ME, and their work was up to “snuff” and grades good. If they did that, and were honest, then I let them stay out of the “hospital.” ha ha

Yes, I well can comprehend the laxidasical behavior after committing murder—Scot Petersen is a great example of that. He reminds me so much of my son. NO conscience and PLENTY OF ARROGANCE. In fact, he planned his killing of his wife, I think, a lot better than my son did, but his P-behavior I am sure is what focused the police onto him.

I read a book by Laci’s mother in which she observed his P-behavior AFTER Laci went “missing” but did NOT apparently see any of it prior to that. She perceived it as a complete “change” in his behavior—I bet Laci, if she were able to talk, would be able to relate a lot of P behavior that went on PRIOR to her murder. I also belive that Laci was so focused on her baby and her “fantasy” with Scot, that she didn’t have the foggiest idea how in danger she was from him or to what extent he would go to rid himself of her and her baby. She might have even convinced herself, as many of us have been, that if she only TRIED harder, he would treat her better. She seems to hve “protected” him as well by keeping “bad” information about how he treated her from her family, which, I think if they had known, REALLY known Scot, would have intervened in some way. I think the fact that Laci’s mom didn’t seem to perceive anything really “out of the ordinary” about Scot prior to Laci being missing. He was able to keep his Mask UP with Laci’s family, but I can’t even imagine that he could have kept it up that well with Laci.

I think it behoves us all to TAKE SERIOUSLY the P-ness of our psychopathic relationships. Some are soooo seriously DANGEROUS. It can become apparent HOW dangerous they are “Suddenly” when we least expect it, in ways we couldn’t even imagine. Not all are physically dangerous, but too many are.


I don’t think Laci knew at all what Scott was all about. Some of them are extremely good at keeping their masks on. My ex never slipped up once. Not one time. The only way I found out was when a woman accidentally rear ended my vehicle. It was pouring ran. I got out to look at the damage and ensure that the woman and her daughter were OK. She was in shock and was all apologetic. I assured it was just an accident and for her not to worry. I asked her young daughter if she was all right? The little angle just smiled a beautiful smile and said that she was fine. I offered to lets just call it a day … but she insisted the police be called. Her vehicle was a mess, my truck had a scratch. I told her it was OK … I guess she wasn’t getting the message. So we pulled over from the flow of traffic and waited for the police. They came, took our license and paperwork … went back to her cruiser … back to me knocking on my vehicle’s window telling me she has to have my vehicle towed. I told her my vehicle was fine and that I could drive it. The officer said “No you can’t … your registration ran out 7 days ago and I can’t let you drive the vehicle”. So there I was in the pouring ran, grabbing as much stuff out of my vehicle … walking over to the woman who caused the accident … asking if she was OK again … then walking over to the strip mall’s restaurant. Thank God for small favors … I just logged in a friend’s number that lived in the area … a few days earlier. I called my friend … she came and picked me up and drove me home. That’s when the 2nd shoe was just starting to fall on my head. I couldn’t fathom the logic of why my vehicle was being towed when my fiance told me everything was up-to-date. Days later … the shoe fell, actually CRASHED down on me. All his lies were uncovered by finding paperwork of FACTS versus ALL his fiction (with the insistance of my sister and my best friend to do so). So NO, I do not believe Laci Knew until the very end. God Bless her and Connor and keep both these angels close to his heart.


Yes, some are extremely good at deceit. I saw signs of questionable and even some unacceptable behavior, but relegated it to other problems but never to something evil. Only after my relationship ended after almost 2 years and I hired a PI, did I learn though I was “engaged” that I was only one of many among other deceptions, and that I had been involved with a Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde.


It is validating to read that so many smart, intuitive people were fooled by these people for so long. I spent 32 years believing I was living with this wonderful, faithful, Director of Worship who finally “outed” himself. I have looked back over the whole mess and realized that if God had not hit me over the head with a 2×4 (I walked in on him with his 20-years-younger, married, children’s choir director), I would most likely still be in that marriage, still believing his stupid lies, and still thinking all our problems were because I was the jealous, anger-ridden b*tch he told me I was, LOL.

I mean, these people are GOOD at the lies. I have seen my ex look me straight in the eye and tell me what I know now were complete and utter lies. Even when I found out the whole truth he STILL continued to tell me that “it is not what you think”. Yeah, like finding my husband with his pants down around his knees and his paramour hiding in the bedroom ain’t what it looked like, LOL.

He also was a master at the half-truth-is-not-a-lie scenario. When the senior minister asked him outright if he was involved with this woman, he told me, “I could say, ‘no I’m not’ because right at that moment I WASN’T involved with her”.

Sheesh. And you know what is really scarey??? He was absolutely convinced that that was not lying. To one of these Ps, it is never a lie if there is any kernel of truth to what they are saying. It is the old, “I did not have sex with that woman” defense – it is not sex if you only define “having sex” in the narrowest of definitions which does not not include oral anything, LOL.



Oh, and you know another laughable one? When I asked him if he was sleeping with someone, he said, “No, I am not sleeping with her”. When the truth came out, and when I asked why he lied, he said, “I didn’t lie. We only had sex but we never slept together”.


Ox Drover

Wini, sometimes the providence of God turns something “bad” (the wreck) into something “good” (finding out the lies) in that you got the information you needed to see what was going on.

Benz, I too hired a PI and got BACKGROUND information on two of my Ps—pretty cheap at that too! Having them followed would have been out of my price range, but just a background check gave me LOTS of information I could follow up on, like the names, addresses and phone numbers of all their neighbors for years back. Criminal records in one case, and PROOF that there was a criminal background. If I had needed CERTIFIED proof of these criminal convictions, I could have written to the courthouses listed with case numbers, dates, etc. and for a small fee, received certified copies of these documents.

It is amazing what information you can get from calling the neighbors though, and that was easy.

Financial information (except for bankruptcy proceedings which are public record) is more difficult to get with all the privacy laws now. But for only $225 I got a WEALTH of information and leg work done for me. You can also usually call the arresting police department and if the case is not too long ago, find the detective that will know something of the case (at least in smaller towns) and get an ear-full about the person in addition to the conviction itself. (which may be only the tip of the ice berg) For example, I found out that one conviction for “burgulary of a home” was when the Trojan Horse Psychopath was a “caregiver” for an elderly couple and stole from them—mostly drugs and some money. Funny, he had taken on the role of “caregiver” for my mom.

Some of the more educated psychopaths (“higher class crooks”) are better able to put on a good cloak, but underneath they are the same—scum.


This site has saved my sanity. My ex has a very unique way of lying. I discovered that I had to take what he was saying literally, instead of interpreting it in the normal human way of understanding. After our divorce he took up my wedding band, when I asked him for it, he yelled at me that he didn’t have it. He intended for me to believe that he didn’t take it up. But I knew that he had taken it up, and what he was actually saying was that he no longer had it.


Another one of my ex.’s favourite was to say that he can look me in the eye and say that something is not true. After I learned how he lied, I would reply by telling him that because he can look me in the eye does not make what he is saying true. Before I found out how he lied, I was married to him for 15 years

Ox Drover

Dear Jody,

Yes, they have some “creative” ways of lying by ALMOST (or literally) saying something “true” in a way that it deceives –or tries to deceive us.

Another part of the lying that is so amazing to me is that you can SEE them do something and they will deny that they did it, EVEN KNOWING you saw it. Dr. Robert Hare mentioned in his book Without Conscience that they would lie even in the face of any kind of evidence. Some how they can’t see that their lie is NOT believeable.

Someone recently wrote that they are like a 5year old kid who is getting in the cookie jar and you HEAR it and ask him if he is in the cookie jar, and he can’t realize you heard the lid klink and he lies and says “No” or if you walked int othe room and he had his hand in it he would say “I’m getting a cookie for YOU” Of course this is NORMAL behavior for a 5 year old, but the Psychopaths don’t seem to get past that stage with their lying, but yea, they can LOOK YOU IN THE EYE when they do it. LOL

Sorry that it took you 15 years to get out of the marriage, but at least you are OUT of it, and “better late than never”–


This is a small insignificant event. I have a hamster and he asked if he could put the hamster in the plastic (run around) ball. I was feet away from him and I heard him break the top of the ball as he put his hand over it and turned it to get the slots to engage. Instead of saying something, he put the hamster in the ball and of course the top came off and the hamster escaped. He then made out that the ball had broken itself, and so I picked up the broken plastic and said ‘here is the broken bit – how did that happen’ (giving him a chance to own up), he said he didnt know. I thought he would rather be irresponsible and let the hamster escape rather than own up. At that defining moment, I realised he was a LIAR.

Ox Drover

How “childish” a lie!!!! Just like a 5 year old would tell, not realizing that you would have HEARD the crack of the plastic or that you would not believe the “ball broke itself”—but lying rather than telling the truth, just like a five year old afraid of being punished would do.

I think this kind of lie is one of the first BIG RED FLAGS we can see waving but we don’t (usually) attribute this kind of “little lie” as anything really significant like one would be if it was “I didn’t steal your diamonds” when you knew they had.

What is so funny about it all though, i s let’s say you kicked him to the curb over the lie about the hamster ball, and your friend asked you “Why did you break up with John?” and you told her I can see her face and expression saying “You BROKE UP with him over a lie about breaking a hamster ball?”

Yep, not because the hamster ball was so important, but because the LIE was so important a RED FLAG. But, most folks don’t get that. I didn’t, NOW I DO.


Dear OxyD. Yes, my story is just like the cookie jar isnt it. Yes it was an important red flag, because I realised that if he could lie over some small object, he could lie about anything. When the hamster escaped, I said to him, ‘I cant understand it the ball was fine this morning’ (giving him another chance to own up). I really started to see another side of him, his mask was slipping and I was coming out of the FOGgggg.


Dear Oxy. After that I really began to study him and I could almost predict what he was going to do and when he was going to do it. He had changed jobs and asked me to do him a reference, because his new employer demanded to see his employment history (85 pages of jobs), they were suspicious. Anyway we broke up before I did the reference. A few weeks later we got back together and I thought I bet he asks me to do that reference, sure enough he asked a day or so later – he became so predictable, that I began to see that he was using me. He asked me to collect him from the rail station after he had been on holiday, he said we could have an evening together. After I got to the station and collected him, he said he was too tired to spend the evening with me and then I started to realise he had used me for a lift. How pathetic. After that, I closely monitored him as I was beginning to see him as a different person.

Ox Drover

It is a shame that we don’t put more emphasis on the EARLY RED FLAGS instead of brushing them aside as trite or small things. They are in FACT–H*U*G*E RED FLAGS. But our social training is geared to make us overlook these “little things” and not “make abig fuss over nothing” and don’t “make a mountain out of a mole hill” and how many other trite things that would be said to us if we really gave it the ATTENTION it deserved.

The Titanic sunk because of a small piece of ice sticking out of the ocean—those things I think are LIE-BERGS with only a small tip sticking out of the water but the HUGE FATAL PART is just under the surface. If we ignore the small piece sticking up we will be SUNK like the Titanic.


The message of the medium being that, it doesn’t matter how you get there, as long as you “win”. or “Profit”.

Which is always the power, fame, money etc. that the S’s breathe. The film “The Corporation” does a great job of illustarting how our major business forms mimic the actions of a sociopath. It is a sad reality, but the S’s rule the day in the terms THEY choose to measure. They are aggressively taking over our water, our seeds, they own our meds, they control our food supply and our sources of income. And we watch.
They are run by the small minority of P’s in this world.

The other 5.975 billion of us would rather find some peace and grace and harmony.

There is much in our current reality and world events that does point to a collapse of the heirarchy of P’s, as Martha Stout says, they usually do end up in a downward spiral.

In the meantime it is up to us to build new alternatives, while refusing to support their power. Whether in a personal relationship, or out there in general. IMHO:)

Peace to all.


Just a comment on my experience with lies. I think sometimes too much emphasis is put on detecting the lie. If you’re dealing with a “professional” liar, chances are you’re not going to catch it, or usually not even have enough reason to point your finger then they point the finger back at you for having a suspicious nature (SOP for these cons anyway). They can be so good at blending enough truth and bullying you into not wanting to create ire that you doubt yourself and start the slide into denial.

Mistrusting on just “gut feel” can drive you crazy, may even make you appear crazy. You may pick up “that feeling” but I think you’ve got to be careful what you do with it. Just like you said Oxy, “You broke up w/him because you thought he told you a lie” can return the same funny look and the over-reaction dilema as breaking the hamster ball. But saying you broke up because he had no regard for your feelings is the legitimate issue.

I got so into playing detective and catching him in a lie that I never caught or as my denial allowed, that I missed the big picture. So lies were not a good red flag for me. He had more girlfriends in two years of our “faithful” relationship than Imelda Marcos had shoes in her closet.

I have been told that the much better red flag is not the lie, but the reaction and the resolution that comes once you bring up how you feel, for a better big picture view. It can be a “little lie” or just a feeling, but the attitude and method of resolution, like denial vs. validating your feelings and willingness to correct the situation, are the big things worth the attention.

Someone who “can’t” understand, talks in circles, is unwilling to disprove or repair mistrust, or who angers and/or outright denies, has something to hide. Like Martha Stout’s lie standard, three chances not to lie but to listen and react appropriately, and if not they need to be gone.

Ox Drover

Good point, Benz, but however you put it “I broke up with him because he told me a little lie” or “I broke up with him because he had no regard for my feelings (by telling me a lie)” is six of one and half a dozen of the other, the point to me is that a LIE is a sure sign to me that HE DOES NOT VALUE ME ENOUGH TO TELL ME THE TRUTH.

He does not value me enough to acknowledge that he hurt my feelings.

He does not value me enough to stop doing x when he knows full well it hurts my feelings.

He does not value me enough to do what he says he will do.

He does not value me enough to ________. Fill in the blank.

The operative word is that He/She DOES NOT VALUE ME and our relationship.

I don’t want to be around people that DO NOT VALUE ME, or that DEVALUE me, I sure as heck don’t want to have a “relationship” with them.

Since I am the ULTIMATE JUDGE of how I feel about the way someone treats me, (i.e. I am not going to let them excuse behavior that is painful to me by projection) I am the one that has to set the boundaries for how people treat me. I am also the one who bears the responsibility of communicating those boundaries to others, and enforcing them, knowing that the relationship will be “lost” if they do not respect them. AND also accepting that a “relationship” that is lost because others do not RESPECT me and my boundaries is NO LOSS to me in any case.

THAT’s the hard part. This past week has been I guess difficult for me with the boundaries I set for my mother, and realzing EMOTIONALLY that she will NEVER RESPECT ME, that she does NOT CARE that she hurt me, that she projects her bad and hurtful behavior on to ME and that our “relationship” was totally ONE SIDED for respect and affection. Painful to find out at 61years old, and get out of denial about the fact that your mother has NEVER loved you, never cared for you, and it was only and always about APPEARANCES and DENIAL of the truth.

But, I feel more at peace now about the disrespect of my mother, and I am coming to terms with it I hope for the final and last time. LOL Just as I did with my P-son, and my P-bio father and the X-BF-P


I think we are looking at anti-socials all wrong. When we first encountered anti-socials in our space … we look at them from our pain. Our pain clouds us from really seeing them. I believe that anti-socials are stunted spiritually at the time they first encountered a painful situation (6-8 years old). I believe that their egos become their defense mechanism for them to deal with this painful experience, whether that be a reprimand from an adult figure … or worse, a physical violation stemming from an adult figure in their life. We view them at their chronological age instead of viewing them at their (child like) stunted spiritual age. We need to work with them from that stunted spiritual age of 6, 7, 8 or 9 years of age instead of them at whatever their currently chronological age. When we realize we are dealing with children instead of the adults we perceive them to be standing before us … then we can unlock the true reasoning they entered down the wrong unrighteous paths throughout their lives. I think these children repeat the pattern of their initial abuse (painful experience) over and over again with everyone they encounter.

This is just my theory after dealing with numerous anti-social personalities … working through the pain they caused me … coming into the place of peace and understanding. From that understanding … coming to a logical conclusion not clouded by pain.


Wini I like your theory, makes alot of sense to me. My (X) was child like, sometime’s I enjoyed it, but I was looking for an adult, a equal partnership. I raised two fine son’s, don’t need to raise anyone else. However we define or label them, they cause us alot of damage. I am going to stop calling my X a sociopath, I like the label his own mother referred to him as.. A BOOGER…

Ox Drover

Dear Wini,

WHATEVER the cause (and there is medical proof now that genetics is a BIG part of their functioning) the problem is that “working with them” to try to get them to SEE their problem is an exercise in futility. THEY DON’T SEE A NEED TO CHANGE, THEY DON’T WANT TO CHANGE….in their opinions it is ONLY THE WORLD that is wrong, not them.

The old “you can lead a horse to water” thing, but you can’t force it to DRINK.

Their self awareness is ZIP and ZERO, less than ZERO! The Bible talks about people “hardening their hearts” so that the word of God bounces off, and the Psychopaths definitely have hearts and minds that can’t get around the fact that their acts, though they know them to be “wrong” in the eyes of others (else why would they lie about them, or try to deceive others?) but to THEMSELVES their evil acts are JUSTIFIED because it is what they WANT to do. Other people are not entitled to be valued, just used. What you do to others is OK if it is what you want to do.

“Working with” a child of 6 or 7 who has no true concept of “right and wrong” is not the same as trying to work with a psychopath who DOES HAVE A CONCEPT OF RIGHT AND WRONG in the eyes of society, they just DON’T EXCEPT society’s rules. It isn’t that they don’t know, they don’t CARE.

The child needs to be TAUGHT, but the P already knows, but doesn’t care. Big difference there.

A child has a potential to learn to know and to care about society’s “rules” of right and wrong, to make judgements based on those rules, to have empathy for others (though little children are not born with empathy, they can develop it through the nurturing teachings of nurturing parents.)

The psychopath is in a hardened state of development such that the teachings of even the most nurturing person bounce off. Because they are unable to have empathy, unable to love, unable to bond, your teachings are worthless, they don’t want them.

When we are born, we have little or no immune system, most animals have NO immune system, and all immune globulins are received through the mothers’ first milk, the colostrum, and that first milk contains all the baby needs to keep him immune from attacks of viruses and bacterias for a period of time until his own immune system kicks in.

If the baby for whatever reasons does not get this first milk, at about 2 or 3 days, depending on the species, the gut will NO LONGER ACCEPT those immune globulins, so if the baby doesn’t get it at a certain time, you can give them all the first milk in the world but it won’t do them any good as they can no longer get benefit from it. Teaching the Ps to have empathy is the same way, they are past the time when they can benefit from infusions of love and caring and teaching.

It would be wonderful if we could believe that there was SOMETHING, anything, that could be done for the Ps to make them have empathy, to “save” them as it were, but the problem is, that NO ONE has ever found this “magic” thing, this “magic formula” that will heal them, because their hearts are “hardened” and they can’t benefit from it.

No one on earth alive today has ever seen someone who was literally dead and in the grave for three days arise and walk the earth again. Yet, we have heard and some of us believe that Jesus did, so we accept that on faith, but none of us think for one minute that we can raise the dead ourselves, or that our loved one who has been dead for three days will if we just “believe enough” or “love them enough” can make them rise up and walk with us again. I would love to believe that, but my experience is that it is NOT going to happen, and that no matter what I want or believe, it isn’t going to happen, so I must accept that it is “impossible.” I would love to believe it is possible to some how get through to a P and to change their way of looking at things. Many of the people in my family are Ps, I would love to change them into “real loving humans” but it isn’t going to happen because they don’t want it to. So, therefore it is impossible. If that makes any sense.

I read a book written by a minister that Jeffrey Dahmer conned into believing he was “saved”—went to great lengths to convince this guy that he was sincere about his repentance etc….and when Jef died, the letters etc in his cell showed that it was all a big ruse just for “fun”–just another con to keep him happy at pulling the wool over on the poor minister’s eyes. For what purpose you say? Just because he COULD and Just because it helped him pass the time, along with the 13 or 14 women he was writing to telling each one that he was in love with her, and that she was the ONLY one for him. Why? Again, just to be conning cause it was fun. No other purpose, just to use and abuse someone vulnerable.

I have NO hope for my Ps that they will ever be anything except examples of evil. I am not going to waste my time or energy trying to “help” them, because they don’t want my help. It is not my responsibility to “cast my pearls before swine” because I know that they will “trample them into the mire, and turn and rend (tear) me.” Ps can’t appreciate love any more than a swine can appreciate pearls, and if you offer them your love, they will use it to tear you to pieces.

I’ve been there too many times, and have the scars to prove it.

If it comforts you to believe that there is hope for these people I hope for your sake that you keep your “hope” far enough away from them that they don’t continue to harm you, but for myself, I will stay as far away from them as I can, because the only thing that kept me near them was the hope that somehow I could love them enough to make them “see” how evil their acts were—and it sure didn’t work anything positive for them, and it worked a lot of negative for me.


I need to Blog, OXY JANE all of you HELP… just as i was typing the word booger in my above post, who should knock on the door? THE BOOGER, I didnt want to open the door didnt want to make eye contact, but I opened the door and handed him his check and asked what he was doing here, he said he wanted to see the dogs, I said go out back by the pool. I went out and set as he was greeting the dogs, he said do u not even want to be friends? I said NO. He said dont act like this. I said Hows your new BF? He said I dont have one I am living alone in an apartment, I said take me to see it, he said NO. I said some of your buddies have shown up here looking for you. He said I dont know what you are talking about. I said you need to leave, He said Actually I am a very honest person until I get fucked over. I said leave and never ever come back. He said dont worry I will never be back…


I am shaking, but I confronted him with his lies and he just kept on lieing, lies lies lies but i had no feelings of love for him just fear

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