Last week I ran across the book, Criminal Interrogation: A Modern Format for Interrogating Criminal Suspects Based on the Intellectual Approach, by Warren D. Holmes. The author spent his early career in law enforcement and now runs a private polygraph company in Miami Florida. He has interviewed many psychopaths including murderers and child molesters. I was anxious to read this book and understand a law enforcement officer’s view of psychopaths. I was happy to see that the book is very well written and I would recommend it to Lovefraud readers who want to know how a law enforcement officer approaches interrogation of psychopaths/sociopaths.
Many Lovefraud readers have expressed the desire to know how to “out” a psychopath/sociopath. In this book Mr. Holmes gives his ideas about this subject. In his Chapter “How People Lie” he discusses the neurotic liar and compares lies told by these people to psychopathic liars. He has also listed and categorized what he calls “liar statements.” These are statements that signal someone is lying. In reading his list, I found that psychopaths/sociopaths use many of these.
Here are his categories of liar statements:
A. Loophole statements like, “To the best of my knowledge.” By using these statements a person can easily have wiggle room to excuse any lies he/she tells.
B. Over-sell expressions like “honestly” and “Believe me.”
C. Thinking time expressions like “can you repeat the question.” Liars use these to give them time to think up lies.
D. Brooklyn Bridge remarks “I need to know if I did it.”
E. Offense statements like “Are you calling me a liar.”
The book discusses each of these in detail. If you have spent time with a psychopath I’m sure you have heard every one of these. Although he is not a psychologist, Mr Holmes discusses his theory of why neurotic, almost sociopathic people lie and what tactics they use. This discussion might be beneficial for those who have a family member who has sociopathic traits but who may not have the full disorder.
The book also discusses what it is like to interview a psychopath. Mr Holmes says what I have said here on this blog and in my books, that is that psychopaths/sociopaths are preoccupied with power and dominance. They show this in every aspect of their behavior. They violate personal space, make inappropriately personal remarks and attempt to control the interview. He says, “When they enter my office, they generally jump into my secretary’s lap.”
I am very grateful for the fact that Mr. Holmes also granted me a brief interview. He is a friendly and wise man, who is certainly an expert on psychopathy/sociopathy. The question I most wanted to ask him was what he thought about the estimates of only 20% of people in prison being psychopaths. He agreed with me that this estimate is too low. He also expressed concern that there is an increase in the prevalence of psychopathy in America.
I asked him if he had any words of wisdom for Lovefraud readers regarding sociopaths/psychopaths and avoiding them. He said that we should always be suspicious of any person who tries too hard to sell himself. He said to beware of people who are overpowering. That sounds like great advice and right on the money to me!
This is what Mr. Ward said about psychopaths and polygraphs. Since they do not react the test is invalid. It is not that they “fool” the test. Because they do not react to control questions either. If the test is invalid due to non-reactivity it is usually psychopath or an effect of psychotropic medication.
When my P-son was in 7th grade he made a crude lie detector, using only skin conductivity as an indicator of some sort of reaction to a question or a word. It actually worked.
Before the science fair and afterwards we played with his “lie detector” at home. One of the “tricks” he would do is that he would give you (the victim of the joke) a stack of cards with one word written on each one. He said there was a special card in the stack that you would react to and he would tell you which one. The words were like Ice Cream, Rock, etc. and after 10 or 12 of these you would come on a card that said “Shit” and not expecting this, of course the skin conductivity would go up because you were surprised. Of course he could tell when you got to the planted “surprise” card.
Of course this would usually only work once on each victim because there would be no “surprise” the next time. We also tried to fool the “lie detector” and he didn’t seem to be any better or any worse than fooling it than his brother and I were. At that age, though,I had still only had one “episode” of P-type behavior prior to that.
I have no doubt now though, 25 years later he would not “react” to a lie detector. I also think he might be able to FAKE reactions, though, as he has practiced mediation for years, as I have, and I can raise the rate or lower the rate of my heart significantly, and raise the temperature in the palms of my hands, I can also lower my blood pressure quite low. In a medical meditation class I took at the Uof A for Medical Sciences, we had a “first timer” there who was able in the first session to significantly raise the temperature in her palms.
I’m not as good as some people, one of the teachers of this class had cut an artery in an accident and actually stopped the bleeding until he could get to help–I can’t keep my concentration under “great stress” like that. I wasn’t able to control the pain in child birth either–just couldn’t keep my concentration, but I know women who could and did. I know that there is remarkable “control” if you learn to exercise it. My own level of expertise is paltry compared to others, more of a parlor trick, but I don’t doubt for a minute that my son could “fake” a lie detector test–appear to react to test questions and NOT react to the real lies.
My P-son has spent considerable time in solitary confinement, which is the “worst” punishment that can be given out in prisons today, legally anyway. He swears that he doens’t mind it as they do have books available and he meditates to pass the time and does yoga. I also think that because of his arrogance and feeling “superior” to the rest of the inmates, he is glad to get away from them into relative quiet. The only time I have known of him to even get “upset” about beiing put into solitary was once when he got caught with a cell phone in his cell and the major threw him (illegally actually) in to administrative segregation which is reserved for inmates who have violently attacked a staff member. He was not allowed any clothing except his undershorts, no reading or writing material and not even a tooth brush for two weeks. One of his inmate friends wrote to me and informed me of his whereabouts or even I would not have known. When I complained to the warden about the illegal detension, the warden released him back into general population and restored his “personal possessions” minus several hundred dollars worth of boot making tools and exotic leathers.
Inmates if they have the cash or barter materials can get almost any kind of contraband into a prison by bribing guards. This is a “cottage industry” in itself. It is the “happy hunting grounds” for a P to be in prison, they have lots of drama and intrigue.
It was a few weeks after that that I went NC with my son.
Dear HL and all, We should all take a deep breath, especially, if we are still in the stage of humiliation and grief about all we have given of ourselves to someone so unworthy. Take a deep breath and think about what it really means that the SP can fool a lie detector!
This is a machine, that measures intricate physical clues when an untruth is told. It is accepted as a valuable tool in law enforcement. And the sociopath can fool the machine!
We are not lie detectors. We are loving open human beings. Vulnerable sometimes perhaps, needy sometimes, idealistic, trusting, loyal, committed to our word. There is no shame in believing the lies of such a person.
Just recently, with all my radar up, after months and years of agony, after months reading up on SP’s and going to Lovefraud for solace, I allowed myself to believe a very specific e-mail on an issue I requested confirmation of in writing. Yes it involved money, part of our agreement to split the sale of assets etc. And WHAMMO. Do dice. Lies, assurances, and more lies. He even lied to the lawyers involved, and they believed him. No problem.
So I finally went NC, the last vestige of communication was allowing e-mail on complicated business stuff we are still both involved with. Blocked his e-mail address. And I love it that Yahoo sends a message that says “recipient does not like sender”.
We have to remember that there are 6 billion people on this planet, and only four percent are SP’s. Get out emotionally, get away, protect yourself and don’t look back. No matter how good it felt when you believed the lies.
At present I have a dear friend who has already been taken, and is being groomed to be taken again by my ex. I have warned all I can. My friend is deterimined to see the “good in everyone”. He is impressed with the stoic, self contained, self assured nature of my ex. Even tho’ he KNOWS he has been lied to and cheated out of a large sum of money.
I am sure all of you can anticipate the outcome.
We all want to believe that a person could not be that deceptive, could not FAKE that much.
HL until you have had an experience like this, there is no way you could have known.
I bought the BS for 20 of the 27 years of my relationship with one, and even then was totally fooled somemore. My denial of reality, while faulty and not in my own interests, and deeply damaging to my wellbeing, were still a testament to my loyalty, my belief in “goodness”, some mysterious decency he convinced me he had. I am much wiser now, but not ashamed.
Keep us posted HL. I send you good thoughts.
OxDrover says:
{{”.one that my Trojan Horse P used almost 100% of the time was to AVOID answering the qutestion directly. When I asked him “Did my mother give you the money for the truck?” He replied. “I have friends in TExas.”
When I finally confronted him about his answer, which I defined as a LIE, he vigorously defended himself by saying the statement “I have friends in TExas” was a true statement, therefore he did not “lie,” he just didn’t answer the question I ASKED. Of course, I believe a “half truth” is a “whole lie” and that a lie=deception=lie.}}
Beverly says:
{{. I asked my ex (whom I suspected of setting me up to meet one of his girlfriends in the market) ’When we went to the market, did you meet anyone you knew?’ He replied ’Who would I know in Camden market’. Also when I asked him how he had gone through £600 in less than a week, he said ’I dont know, I dont keep receipts’. In my mind, these were all NON REPLIES, because they didnt actually make sense, they didnt DIRECTLY ANSWER the questions. When I asked him, ’Why havent you text me in two days?’ he replied ’Why didnt you text me?’. His replies were just ways of batting the ball back to me.}}
OxDrover and Beverly, these stories are so typical that I had to laugh too! This kind of pathology reminds me of the little kid that Bill Cosby talks about in one of his comedy routines, the kid that doesn’t yet know that sound travels and that the parent can hear him opening the cookie package in the kitchen. The kid thinks the parent doesn’t know he’s getting into the cookie package because he cannot SEE the parent in the other room! The child isn’t aware that just because he can’t see the parent and the parent can’t see him, that there are not other ways to determine what is going on, like the loud sound of the rustling plastic of the cookie package!
It’s also characteristic of these kinds of pathology that they always think they are so much smarter ”“ or at least that everyone else is a dumb cluck and can’t see through them. And even when you warn them in various ways that you are “onto” them, they don’t get it; they will keep on playing the game as though they are certain that the next bamboozling is going to work.
OxDrover says:
{{Dr. Robert Hare mentioned in his book, “Without Conscience” that the psychopath will lie in the face of EVIDENCE that he is lying.}}
Again, reminds me of the little kid Bill Cosby talks about who, when caught with his hand in the cookie package says: “I was getting the cookie for YOU!”
That’s classic!
It’s funny, but it highlights what Cleckley noted about psychopaths: their almost infantile interaction with the world. I’ve written about this recently in my article “A Structural Theory of Psychopathy” here: http://laura-knight-jadczyk.blogspot.com/2008/05/structural-theory-of-narcissism-and.html
Liane says:
{{Mr Holmes discusses his theory of why neurotic, almost sociopathic people lie and what tactics they use. This discussion might be beneficial for those who have a family member who has sociopathic traits but who may not have the full disorder.}}
That sounds like very useful information to have since it appears to make a certain distinction. “neurotic, almost sociopathic people”. Does this mean that the author is making a clear distinction between sociopathy and psychopathy?
Cleckley points out that neurotic people are the exact opposite of psychopathic individuals. So, if we discuss someone who is “neurotic, almost sociopathic”, we must be talking about a person who is not really a psychopath, just a severely wounded individual, in which case they can certainly be sociopathic but not psychopathic. Cleckley discusses this opposition at some length, even giving a handy little table to show the differences. He remarks:
{{The true psychopaths personally observed have usually been free, or as free as the general run of humanity, from real symptoms of psychoneurosis. The psychoneurotic patient, furthermore, is usually anxious to get over his symptoms, while the psychopath does not show sincere evidence of regretting his conduct or of intending to change it. (Cleckley, 258, 259)}}
Liane says:
{{This is what Mr. Ward said about psychopaths and polygraphs. Since they do not react the test is invalid. It is not that they “fool” the test. Because they do not react to control questions either. If the test is invalid due to non-reactivity it is usually psychopath or an effect of psychotropic medication.}}
This is a topic that has come up among our researchers recently and several interesting web links were shared. Helen Smith, a forensic psychologist, wrote a blog entry about it here: http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2005/10/can-psychopath-fake-polygraph.html
There are some interesting comments to this post, including one from a guy named George Maschke which is worth reading. He provides some interesting background to the polygraph topic and how the tests are set up and how they can be fooled. He also gives a link to http://antipolygraph.org/ which is just chock full of fun facts and links. I’m not sure that I agree with his views entirely, but it is worth a look.
This site http://www.polygraphplace.com/ubb/NonCGI/Forum6/HTML/000060.html pretty much asserts that there is no support for the idea that a psychopath has any special or enhanced ability to “beat” or “fool” the polygraph. (I admit that I sure thought they could, but apparently not. It may even be that what is measured when a psychopath lies are the body’s experiencing a “thrill” about lying because they are conscious of their lies).
And this item: http://www.lieassurance.com/docs/Psychopaths.pdf tells us that psychopaths pose no problem for polygraph examiners who know their stuff. The guy writing it makes a distinction between psychopaths and sociopaths which is in line with what Mr. Ward seems to be saying.
Then, there is this item: http://www.psychologymatters.org/polygraphs.html where it seems that the dispute about whether or not polygraphs detect lies at all is still ongoing. They say that “Most psychologists agree that there is little evidence that polygraph tests can accurately detect lies.”
This one is a more recent study and they call the polygraph “Trial by Ordeal.” That reminds me of an article I wrote some time back: The Cult of the Plausible Lie http://laura-knight-jadczyk.blogspot.com/2006/01/cult-of-plausible-lie.html It’s got a lot of good quotes and examples in it of lies and liars at all levels of society. Since nearly everyone here has been subjected to, or harmed by the society set up by this “cult,” you might want to read it. For example, I think that everyone here knows that the truth – when twisted by good liars, can always make an innocent person look bad – especially if he is honest and admits that he has faults.
If someone is telling the simple truth, and the other side is lying through their teeth, the basic assumption that the truth lies between the testimony of the two sides always shifts the advantage to the lying side and away from the side telling the truth. Under most circumstances, this shift put together with the fact that the truth is going to also be twisted in such a way as to bring detriment to the innocent person, results in the advantage always resting in the hands of liars.
The social system that “trains” our thinking is set up like the legal system. People are taught to assume that, in any conflict, one side is lying one way, and the other is lying the other way, and people can just form opinions about which side is telling the truth. They are taught that the truth will lie somewhere between two extremes.
Those who have been victimized by a pathological individual know that this is a wonderfully plausible lie. In such cases, we all know that one side is lying through his/her teeth and the other side is telling the truth and is an innocent victim.
The sad fact is that our culture is so permeated with this “legal argument” system that it extends into our daily experience: the one who is the slickest at using the system for convincing a group of people of something, is the one who is believed. Very few people take the time to obtain hard facts by carefully studying any and all information about a situation.
A specific example of this problem can be found in a courtroom where juries are prohibited by law from knowing anyone involved in the trial. If the defendant is a good person who is being set up and framed, people who know him well and who have had much opportunity to interact with him over a long period of time and observe him would have much more trouble accepting lies told about him. If the jurors knew the prosecutor and knew him to be a bullying liar, they might have trouble believing the lies he was telling. If the jurors knew the defendant, and know him to be a trouble making villain they might be more likely to convict him.
By the same standards, if a person who is guilty is accused of a crime that he DID commit, it is all too easy to get off. Corrupt lawyers, ignorant “experts,” and blind judges let guilty people literally get away with murder all the time.
But, none of the conditions conducive to finding the TRUTH prevail in a courtroom even if we have been conditioned to think that we have the “best legal system in the world.” It is not much different than “Trial by Ordeal.”
In the earliest days of this “legal system” there was a form of “justice” called “trial by ordeal”. An example of trial by ordeal was holding a red hot iron to a defendant’s tongue. The plausible lie used to justify this behavior was: if the defendant was telling a lie they would have a dry mouth and would be burned by the iron – while a truthful person would have a moist mouth and would be protected.
The fact is a NORMAL person who is telling the truth would most definitely have a dry mouth from fear, while a psychopath, who is incapable of feeling fear, would be the one with the moist mouth!!!
If we change our assumptions (which is a lot easier to do after we have been victimized by a pathological!), we can think that in MANY instances, one side is totally innocent, honest, and telling the truth. It is obvious that lying does an innocent defendant no good; what lie can he tell? If he is innocent, the only lie he can tell is to falsely confess “I did it.”
On the other hand, lying is nothing but good for the liar. He can declare that “I didn’t do it” and accuse another of doing it; all the while the innocent person is saying “I didn’t do it” and is telling the truth. But, because he experiences fear and other emotions, he can be driven to act in very neurotic ways, even telling stupid lies to try to protect himself. That is also childish behavior because a child with emotions WILL lie to protect himself from punishment!!!
The brutal truth is that the our social, cultural, and legal systems are all about making people helpless then hammering them without mercy – all the while involving everyone in the illusion that right prevails.
But then, most of us who have been victimized by pathology know that.
Thanks Dr. Leedom
This is what I thought might happen when giving a polygraphs test to an psychopaths.
Laura,
Great post as always.
One of the things you said bout “the truth being in the middle” is something that we seem to be taught in gradeschool
“There are TWO sides to every story.” Of course that infers that the truth lies in the middle. In reality, while there ARE two sides to every story, it doesn’t mean that they are BOTH valid.
“It takes two to fight”—no it only takes ONE to fight, and another to be the victim. Two kids on the play ground scrapping, doesn’t mean that one of them did not attackk the other one entirely unprovoked.
You are absolutely right about the “justice” and “legal” systems in our country. Early on in history, the jury would be chosen from those that knew the two parties or knew the defendents (as most people in a community knew each other) and of course that leaves the chance that one of the jury members is a “friend” of the defendent and will unjustly vote for them.
In the trial of Aaron Burr for treason, the judge was his friend, and made every effort to get him acquited although there was NO doubt that Burr WAS guilty of treason. BTW I think Burr was a psychpath, “delux model.”
Unfortunately, many politicians are psychopaths IMHO…and I can still run the “tape” in my head of Bill Clinton staring the camera and angryly stating “I did NOT have sex with THAT Woman…”—the “definition” of the “sex” they used had HER HAVING SEX WITH HIM, but he didn’t have sex with her, so “technically” he didn’t “lie.” DUH!??? LIE IN THE FACE OF EVIDENCE.
I think your comment about them lying in the face of evidence makes them like a child with his hand in the cookie jar, is so right on. Their concepts ARE like children about what the evidence shows and that they can “lie” their way out of it–like you said, “I’m getting a cookie for YOU” LOL How TRUE, how TRUE.
As far as the validity of the polygraph, I do think it is more like the “trial by ordeal” than otherwise, and that the person being tested’s BELIEF in its validity is important. It doesn’t measure specific emotions, but physical reactions to emotion.
My late husband took a polygraph once which he flunked badly because he was EMOTIONALLY upset even though he was telling the TRUTH. His emotions about the truth made his reading “show up” as a lie because his blood pressure, breathing, heart rate and skin conductivity went UP, not from lying but from believing strongly about the truth.
I am glad that they are not admitted as evidence in court, and I hope they never will be. The questions about how to always detect lies has been with us since the dawn of man, and I imagine will always be with us until we can figure out a way to mind read.
Your comments about our justice system favoring the liar are so true. Good post. Thanks for the links as well.
.
Dear Laura, I love reading your posts and the above one made me chuckle in places!!!
Just alst night there was show on a psychopathmurderer who beat a polygraph.And seeing him on tape was surreal, so laid backk.Too laid back. And then they showed a pic taken at a family function the same day another had raped and murdered a woman. Same day–happy, family man. I am not shocked, but I can imgaine how those unaware of psychos react.
Oh and this: another registered and ran in the race to honor the victim of the crime. Yeah, the murderer ran in the race for the victim. Same behavior we see on a “small scale.” Make no excuses, these men ( and women) are psychos- capable of anything as Oxie knows.
Some of them are “soooo convincing” and others are soooooo unable to SEE how UNconvincing their lies are, just as the five year old can’t SEE how NO ONE would believe their lie that they weren’t in the cookie jar when you heard the rattle of the lid and actually caught them with their hand in it.
That’s why I think little kids get the idea that we can “mind read” when they lie to us because they can’t see that we HEARD the cookie jar lid.
It is odd to me that I actually remember the first deliberate lie I ever told…I could not have been more than three as we were still living at my grandmother’s house. She was going to the garden to work which was just barely out of sight of the yard and wanted me to quit my play and go with her so she could watch me. I said I didn’t want to go and she said “If you don’t go with me, you will run across the highway to play with the other kids.” Up until that moment I hadn’t even thought about doing such a thing, but at that point I had the idea and INTENDED TO DO IT if I could get her to go without me. I looked her right in the face and said “No, I won’t do that” knowing full well I intended to do so. She took me at my word, and sure enough, as soon as she was out of line of sight, I took off and crossed the highway to go play with the neighbor kids. Of course when she came back, she KNEW where I was and came and got me, and I remember that she “switched” me all the way home on the legs with a small weeping willow branch–LOL.
Why that stuck in my mind I don’t know, and I never could figure out WHY she so quickly knew where I was. LOL
The first time I remember being lied TO was when I was about that same age. My mom had told me when I was a little over 2 that my baby cousin was born witout any teeth and the last bottle that I had would feed him and asked me to give it to him. I said OK. Later, I was climbing in the cabinets in my grandmother’s kitchen and I found the BOTTLE and realized I had BEEN LIED TO. I was angry, and got the bottle down and put milk in it and sucked on it. It tasted like old rubber and I was so disappointed. I was probably nearly 4 when I found the bottle.
After that I can’t remember lying to my parents or grandparents, or being lied to either. Later, as an adult, when I found out that people frequently lied, I was somewhat disilusioned, but tended to take people at their word, and become irate when I discovered a lie.
My own children were not frequent liars and when I would discover a “lie”–such as pretending a tummy ache to get out of something, I usually stopped that with a natural consequence. If you are “sick” you CAN stay home from school or whatever, BUT since you are so “sick” that you can’t go, it is better if you lie in bed, in your room with the lights out, nothing to read or play with and “rest.”
If they really WERE ill, they had no problem with this, but if they were just pretending (once my P son put the thermometer under the hot water tap and had a “fever” of 106 degrees with a suspiciously cool forehead. LOL) they soon got bored with their “day off from school” or whatever it was they wanted to avoid. Later, when they were in Jr. High I would occasionally give them a “mental health day off” from school or other things IF THEY WERE HONEST WITH ME, and their work was up to “snuff” and grades good. If they did that, and were honest, then I let them stay out of the “hospital.” ha ha
Yes, I well can comprehend the laxidasical behavior after committing murder—Scot Petersen is a great example of that. He reminds me so much of my son. NO conscience and PLENTY OF ARROGANCE. In fact, he planned his killing of his wife, I think, a lot better than my son did, but his P-behavior I am sure is what focused the police onto him.
I read a book by Laci’s mother in which she observed his P-behavior AFTER Laci went “missing” but did NOT apparently see any of it prior to that. She perceived it as a complete “change” in his behavior—I bet Laci, if she were able to talk, would be able to relate a lot of P behavior that went on PRIOR to her murder. I also belive that Laci was so focused on her baby and her “fantasy” with Scot, that she didn’t have the foggiest idea how in danger she was from him or to what extent he would go to rid himself of her and her baby. She might have even convinced herself, as many of us have been, that if she only TRIED harder, he would treat her better. She seems to hve “protected” him as well by keeping “bad” information about how he treated her from her family, which, I think if they had known, REALLY known Scot, would have intervened in some way. I think the fact that Laci’s mom didn’t seem to perceive anything really “out of the ordinary” about Scot prior to Laci being missing. He was able to keep his Mask UP with Laci’s family, but I can’t even imagine that he could have kept it up that well with Laci.
I think it behoves us all to TAKE SERIOUSLY the P-ness of our psychopathic relationships. Some are soooo seriously DANGEROUS. It can become apparent HOW dangerous they are “Suddenly” when we least expect it, in ways we couldn’t even imagine. Not all are physically dangerous, but too many are.
I don’t think Laci knew at all what Scott was all about. Some of them are extremely good at keeping their masks on. My ex never slipped up once. Not one time. The only way I found out was when a woman accidentally rear ended my vehicle. It was pouring ran. I got out to look at the damage and ensure that the woman and her daughter were OK. She was in shock and was all apologetic. I assured it was just an accident and for her not to worry. I asked her young daughter if she was all right? The little angle just smiled a beautiful smile and said that she was fine. I offered to lets just call it a day … but she insisted the police be called. Her vehicle was a mess, my truck had a scratch. I told her it was OK … I guess she wasn’t getting the message. So we pulled over from the flow of traffic and waited for the police. They came, took our license and paperwork … went back to her cruiser … back to me knocking on my vehicle’s window telling me she has to have my vehicle towed. I told her my vehicle was fine and that I could drive it. The officer said “No you can’t … your registration ran out 7 days ago and I can’t let you drive the vehicle”. So there I was in the pouring ran, grabbing as much stuff out of my vehicle … walking over to the woman who caused the accident … asking if she was OK again … then walking over to the strip mall’s restaurant. Thank God for small favors … I just logged in a friend’s number that lived in the area … a few days earlier. I called my friend … she came and picked me up and drove me home. That’s when the 2nd shoe was just starting to fall on my head. I couldn’t fathom the logic of why my vehicle was being towed when my fiance told me everything was up-to-date. Days later … the shoe fell, actually CRASHED down on me. All his lies were uncovered by finding paperwork of FACTS versus ALL his fiction (with the insistance of my sister and my best friend to do so). So NO, I do not believe Laci Knew until the very end. God Bless her and Connor and keep both these angels close to his heart.