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A society where everyone is a sociopath

This week I want to reach out to all of you who feel that you can no longer trust people. Imagine a world where your worst fears have come true, a world where everyone over the age of 15 is a sociopath. What would it be like to live in that world?
If you only read one book this summer, I strongly urge you to read Chimpanzee Politics: Power and Sex Among Apes by Frans de Waal. I have said before that I think the social-brain of sociopaths is similar to that of chimps. Now having read that book I am even more convinced.

Chimpanzee Politics is the true life story of the relationships between individuals of the Arnhem Chimp Colony. Scientists carefully observed, photographed, filmed and recorded every interaction between troop members over several years. I don’t want to give away the story, because it is shocking, and you should read it for yourself. The chimps’ story is presented as a very readable narrative that brings to life all of their individual personalities.

I want to outline here the major findings that help us to understand ourselves and sociopaths.

1) Chimpanzees practice deception extensively. Take this example given on page 36:

Dandy is the youngest and lowest ranking of the four grown males. The other three, and in particular the alpha male, do not tolerate any sexual intercourse between Dandy and the adult females. Nevertheless, every now and again he does succeed in mating with them after having made a “date.” When this happens Dandy and the female pretend to be walking in the same direction by chance, and if all goes well they meet behind a few tree trunks. These dates take place after the exchange of a few glances and in some case a brief nudge.

This kind of mating is frequently associated with signal suppression and concealment. ..Dandy and a female were courting each other surreptitiously. Dandy began to make advances to the female, while at the same time restlessly looking around to see if any of the other males were watching. Male chimpanzees start their advances by sitting with their legs wide apart revealing their erection. Precisely at the point when Dandy was exhibiting his sexual urge in this way Luit, one of the older males, unexpectedly came around the corner. Dandy immediately dropped his hands over his penis concealing it from view.

2) Chimpanzees manipulate and instigate.

3) Chimpanzees fake emotions to get attention and influence others.

4) Chimpanzees hurt one another and only care about the hurt because of what others will think. There is an awareness that hurting is wrong and those who hurt are punished, but they do not appear to care unless someone else sees it.

5) A male chimpanzee will use a “friend” to form a coalition to achieve his aims, then soon after turn on the friend. Male chimps have no problem killing their “friends.”

6) Most interestingly, chimpanzees remember each other and recognize individuals but only females take that a step further and maintain a slightly loyal relationship with another individual. All of the chimps’ loyalties are temporary. Their loyalties are based on exchange. Touch which feels good, sex, food and protection are part of the exchange. They have incredible memories for who they have done favors for, and who has done favors for them. The pleasure they receive due to another’s actions is not lasting and if a coalition is to be maintained, it has to be continually reinforced, with touch, food, sex or some other favor.

7) For chimps, affectionate touching is part of dominance coalition development as opposed to meaningful friendship. In other words, my dog comes to get a caress and kiss me because I am special and he loves me. A chimp engages in the same behavior because he knows it will get him something.

I am very interested in the idea that affection and touching can be part of either love or power motives in humans. It is my observation that many of the worst sociopaths/psychopaths enjoy giving and receiving a touch and a hug. If they are incapable of love how can this be? Is it really all fake? I do not think so. I wrote one of the country’s leading chimpanzee experts about the idea that touching is linked to dominance and power motivation. This is what he replied:

Your recent email was very interesting. Indeed there has been a considerable amount of research on grooming in chimpanzees and it appears that much of male grooming does conform to your hypothesis about grooming being related to dominance status. The grooming is clearly related to achieving or maintaining status and usually does not indicate anything close to affection.

A related phenomenon is the role of grooming in all male patrols in wild chimpanzees. Chimpanzees live in large groups that are highly territorial. All male coalitions sometime form and engage intense grooming among themselves. They proceed in single file towards the territorial boundary, remaining uncharacteristically silent (as if on radio silence). If they then encounter a single male from the adjoining troop they attack him usually killing or severely injuring him. Females or infants from the adjoining population are also sometimes killed.

So grooming in the first case is simply part of a political strategy involving status. In the second case, it seems to solidify group coherence to achieve a rather nasty result.

I offer you this to help you in your recovery: next time you are daydreaming of that wonderful touch from the sociopath you loved, picture the person with the face of a chimp! Get it through your head, the touch was not about love. It was about power and control over you. Like chimps, sociopaths can only retain the pleasure of what you bring them for a short time. The minute you no longer serve a purpose you risk being discarded or worse.

Now go back to imagining a world consumed with deception, fake emotion, manipulation, power and violence. That is the world of the chimpanzee NOT the world of homo sapiens. The majority of our species has the capacity for bonds of affection. Furthermore, for many, many people, real affection and genuine caring even extends to strangers. After reading deWaal’s account, I feel very optimistic about us.

DeWaal drew some interesting conclusions of his own:

Politicians, for example, are vociferous about their ideas and promises but are careful not to disclose personal aspirations for power. This is not meant to be a reproach, because after all everyone plays the same game. I would go further and say that we are largely unaware that we are playing a game and hide our motives not only from others but also underestimate the immense effect they have on our own behavior. Chimpanzees, on the other hand are quite blatant about their “baser” motives. Their interest in power is not greater than that of humanity; it is just more obvious”¦Humans should regard it as an honor to be classified as political animals.

I agree that humans as a species are preoccupied with power and that the preoccupation is no less than that of the chimpanzee. However, balancing that power motive for most of us is an equally strong love motive. The love motive, not our political cunning is our true claim to greatness and honor. Thankfully, for humans, unbalanced power motives, egocentricity and the incapacity for love constitute a disorder and not our way of life.


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73 Comments on "A society where everyone is a sociopath"

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This makes a lot of sense, given that psychopathic human primates have reduced size and activity of the amygdala, hippocampal dysfunction/asymmetries/reduced volume, reduced gray matter in the prefrontal lobes, reduced function in the anterior cingulate, reduced function in the angular gyrus, reduced function in the insula, and disruptions in connectvitiy of these regions. Put them all together and one could expect a moral compass closer to that of a non-human primate. And that is exactly what we see.

I think most people are reasonably trustworthy. On the other hand, a minority are not even a little trustworthy.

Ironically, untrustworthy people are usually skilled in getting most of the people to trust them, most of the time.

It’s interesting you mention politics Steve, because my husband and I have recently become politically active. Behind the scenes many of the candidates give me the creeps. They’re all charming, but many of them strike me as probable sociopaths. Of course, few normals would want the jobs they’re vying for, so I guess it’s inevitable.

Politics are definitely like sausage. You truly don’t want to know all the ingredients.

Does this then follow that the DNA is passed down the line from parent to child? The S that I was involved with had severed ties with his own father because of his controlling and cold behaviour (the mother of the S had told me – she is now in her 70s – that on their honeymoon, he had had an episode in South Africa, was hospitalized and treated for schizophrenia – he never received on-going treatment on his return to the UK) – the S (now 50) his son now 23 display all the traits of an S/N – or could it be ‘learned’ behaviour?

Whichever way round, it seems to come down the line.
Thanks for the article – on a personal level, it does help me to be able to view the S as some sort of primal being – you don’t take it personally if a dog bites you – no matter how hard, do you?

“Steve”

Oops, sorry Dr. Leedom. I don’t know why I got confused.

Thanks for the insight..

I always believe we can learn much from the animal kingdom. I try to check this book out when I can. Sounds very interesting. Thanks again!

OK, question for all. I have been sort of afraid of posting now, because I wonder how many subhumans can be reading this (and if my own one is, I really want to be more private). I thought, to post we needed to be approved? perhaps, I remember incorrectly.
Harris in his book wrote that if all S were on an island where they’d have to deal with each other, none are likely to survive. I am so afraid of strangers now, am plenty careful and am more able to spot a pathology. However, I am also afraid of going the “other way” and being too careful, too suspicious and labeling. It would not be right if we labeled others who may disagree with us, or presented controversy or pointed out our deficiencies with the disorder. The one line that makes us human is ability to feel the pain of another, ability to feel responsible for own actions and to not look to blame others for each deed, however bad. That, who has not committed a sin, cast the first stone. Fear is a huge motivator. But, if you are not afraid, you are likely to not live by the social norms. Please, challenge me on this, if you think I am wrong in my assumptions.

Katya: I’ve seen that Donna chooses to not interfere with most communication, but she definitely steps forward when she feels someone is being unhelpful or disruptive.

We must remember that anyone could be reading this site, but not posting.

I think it’s important to remember, though, that virtually everyone who is posting here has shown themselves to be very caring and concerned for others. If I were to look at one element that is lacking in the S/P it is the ability to truly love — to bond with another human and to care about their welfare. As you said, the ability to care enough to be able to feel about the pain of another, and not wish to do harm. I think one of the benefits of posting here and communicating with others is that we train ourselves to recognize when we are being loved by others — because, isn’t that what most of our communication here is all about? We come to care about each other, wishing the best for each other, feeling each other’s pain, and not wanting to cause pain to others?

S/Ps are good at faking it, but not at really loving. When we start to see and feel the difference, we’re better able to protect ourselves by spotting the counterfeits. And remember, there are more of US than of THEM.

Love, Rune.

Rune,
Brought good tears to my eyes. Thank you!!!

KATYA,

That is something I worry about myself. I want to protect my self and my love ones but I also don’t want to block out those that can help me learn and understand more. I worry I will protect my self too much and maybe when someone that I can bond with I would turn away out of fear or being too judgmental. I guess we walk a fine line between closing doors to those we should and allowing these doors to stay open to people we want and need in our life.

I hope over time I will learn how to better do this. I know if I close my heart to love, then I will be very lonely for the rest of my life something I don’t want.

hi everyone. I do not want to have a closed heart eiether-but I when i begin to feel happy, it will happen automatically.
I had NC for about 7 weeks from my S and I had a slip 6 days ago. After beating myself up sufficiently-now I’m back in “anger” mode. I keep flashing back to things that happened and just start to feel enraged! Then comes depressed..
I just want to get on with my life, i deserve to have a happy life. not just feeling all my wounds and scars from an 11 year relationship and then another year of him wanting to be best friends where I lost more money, wasted more time and in turn got me to where I am now. Miserable. I know it is my responsibility to make myself happy but I feel emotionally raped. He got my best years (40’s).
When I’m physically tired I even consider ending it all-but I could never leave my 4 dogs and a couple people that are extremely important to me…it would devastate them.
So I’m off to therapy, which is probably the best place I could go right now.
Bless all of you, I will check in later. britney

britneyhammer

I believe that true and when we are ready then we will be able too. When I learned to be happy is something I need to do for myself and then I will be able to share that happiness with others.

Hmmm…..I don’t think this gives a complete picture of chimpanzee behavior, compared to some of Jane Goodall’s writings, and others Or even from that book. Discussing chimps is not the point here, but let me say that chimp orphans are victims of the bushmeant trade in Africa, and the humans who risk their lives to save them and teach them about the forest and re-release them and protect them from poachers are true heroes. Chimps aren’t cute and cuddly once sexually mature, but those that raise them in sanctuaries can tell you many stories of TRUE compassion and bonds…more than the S I knew was ever capable of!

I think many young human primates exhibit these same traits (minus the sexuality). Psychopaths seem stuck in that development phase and never grow out of it. And while young humans are mostly “all about me” , they are capable of some touching loving acts that I do think are real.

But I do agree that the loving touch of a S is false and fake and manipulative, or a best, very shallow. I’ve certainly seen animals demonstrate levels of concern, honor, commitment, devotion, loyalty that a S is incapable of.

My one bird who has had the “helen keller moment” and realizes words have meaning and ONLY uses words appropriately, has made it clear when he “loves” and it is usually very conditional….but he has his moments of compassion (once I accidentally shut his neck in the aviary door and I was frantic, but he was fine and he said after a moment “okay, accident, I love you.”…..and he rarely says I love you.) and my vet said he is the most empathetic bird he as ever seen, in regards to how he treats other birds.

I think we share about 98.7% dna with chimps. To see them slaughter and eaten has caused me much personal pain. To see them kept in a cage in a basement for decades has caused me much pain. Who is the one without compassion or empathy in those scenarios? Okay, off my soapbox. But S/P/N’s are so awful to compare them to chimps just seems like a huge insult to chimps! I’ve been charged by male chimps, I don’t have a romanticized vision of them. But believe me, the P I knew was far more dangerous and harmful at least emotionally!

That was a lovely post, Rune. Didn’t bring tears to my eyes, but touched my heart. Truly it did.

I wish to respond to Katya’s post regarding fear of strangers. As you know, each of us in a different stage of healing on LF. Some are still as fragile as porcelain, emotionally delicate to any perceived unintentional slights from the other members. I consider this a natural occurence after being involved with predators.

It’s most certainly OK to feel vulnerable, still reeling with confusion, heartache and despair after all the turmoil created by the predator. The damage they cause hurts tremendously and stays with us for a long, long time.

For me, it’s been about a year since my last sociopathic lover. I don’t label him haphazardly. The dude was just not right! His eyes betrayed him time and time again as they were the eyes of a soulless humanoid. Black, merciless and cold as the darkest winter night. I know what he is now by reading the literature available from many sources.

As you progress with your healing, you will discover that little by little, your innate strength returns to you. That you no longer feel as delicate and fragile as you did in the beginning. You begin to prepare your non-negotiable boundaries to save yourself from future predation.

You begin to listen closer to your beloved intuition and heed her protective wisdom fervently. When your intuiton is warning you that the person you are now conversing with may be dangerous…you pay attention and split.

I do this quite often, though not coming from a place of fear (I won’t give predators that satisfaction) but from my own sense of self preservation, because I love and respect myself to take care of me. First and foremost, I WILL protect myself from any perceived danger. It’s a practical, logical and rational way to live your life.

To get to a place where you are completely comfortable in your own skin, firmly aware that you are a valuable human being and deserve to be treated with kindness, consideration, thoughtfullness and love, you no longer will cringe in fear of strangers. Hold your head up high, be confident and self-contained but to be cautious and shrewd when in the presence of a stranger.

Oh, awesome article Dr. Leedom.

Thank you so very much for writing and sharing it with us!

🙂

They are finding out now that wolves in the wild don’t have the “alpha” thing going on quite as it happens when they are in confinement. As I recall, these chimps in the study were a zoo colony. Might be a temporaryor not-normal behavior brought on by the stress of the confined area. I dunno. I’ve heard of situational narcissism, but not situational sociopathy. But certainly stress can bring out the worst in any of us.

For the VICTIMS of sociopaths, I think sometimes OUR vulnerability was situational. The S I was involved with mildly stalked me for 40 years, I even saw him once during that time, but nothing happened because I was in a strong place. But finally he happened to hit on me when I was down, and that time he succeeded in getting me into the fog,as he had when I was 15.

Janesmith, I loved the end of your post about protecting yourself. That is right where we need to land.

Chimps, I believe, are our closest “relatives” in terms of DNA and the percentage is in the high 90s, though I don’t remember the exact numbers without looking it up, so I would believe that we humans have a great deal in common with chimps.

In fact, I have seen groups of “humans” who make the “warrior” chimps out to protect their territory seem benign.

All you have to do to verify my above statement is pick up a history book or look at stories on the internet or the local news about “man’s inhumanity to man” any day of the week. Darfur for example. Nazi Germany.

Some of this may inideed be “learned behavior” and some linked to genetics for aggression. Doesn’t matter really in the end, as we all know that the psychopaths will do whatever it takes to get what they want. I watched Dateline and 48 hours Mystery tonight and saw chilling stories of psychopaths and the things they will do, the arrogance of their entitlement mentality. The devestation in their wake.

I doubt that there is anything that can change the basic character or the genetics that produce psychopaths, but we can and I think, we MUST, learn to protect ourselves as best we can. to learn to not be TOO trusting, and yet to maintain our own elevation above THEIR LEVEL and be able to trust appropriately and to love. To me, there is not much value in “life” if it is spent either living in terror or fear, or living without loving human contacts.

Oxy OMG I watched that tonight to….We were on tornado watch the entire evening (I am TERRIFIED of tornados and severe thunderstorms) and I was actually not even focusing on the weather, even with warnings scanning the bottom of the screen during the entire program. That second story was unbelievable. The couple with their boat. I wished they had showed more of the court proceedings as I wondered if his pregnant wife was really more of a victim (of him) or of she really was as cold blooded as he was.

Liane,

This brought me moments of ‘aha’ and a sense of relief and joy. Thanks for the wonderful article!

With those who know best, adult male chimps are among the most dangerous animals in Africa. For all practical purposes they have four hands (each of which is at least five times stronger than a typical human hand), which they use to unleash their primary weapon ”“ a bite force, which is on a pounds per square inch basis, double that of a pit bull. There are a lot of stories out there about researchers and chimp pet owners losing fingers, noses and worse to chimps that suddenly snapped. Adult chimps, regardless of their “domesticity”, are ticking time bombs.

But then you have the bonobo, the other highly shared DNA primate. Their social structure is completely different from chimps. Lots of love motive with that species. Have they ever compared chimpanzee vs. bonobo vs. human brain physiology? If not, why not?

I personally believe that humans have a broader ’temperament curve’ than any animal – you really do have to take each and every person on a case by case basis. But I’m still greatly disturbed by the lack of skepticism, or lack of wisdom about human nature, or whatever you call it… that causes so many people to be ignorant or unsympathetic to sociopathy and its victims.

Brittney Hammer, Just remember, you came out on the other side. We all did. That is all we need to celbrate and know. Damaged, bruised, bewildered, confused. But here. On the other side. Not bitter and playing their game. Just her. Healing, learning, growing, and sticking to what really metters. Connection.

Ther is a weird site i have logged onto, for S’s. All about their needs. A;; abouthow nobody gets their chit. They call “us’……..are you ready??? “EMPATHS”.. tO THEM THE OTHER SIDE IS SOME WEIRD SPECIES THAT HAS EMPATHY.. tHEY SPIT IT OUT LIKE WE ARE DEFICIENT, DERELICT, LACKING.

What I am getting at is every second I devote to trying to have empathy for my socio, I now know he laughs at my deficency, as an EMPATH. I will take the disease above the cure. Empath for life.

peace and love…

PS Sorry for all the typos. Late here. Hugs to all.

Eyeswideshut,
Sounds like that site would make me very angry.

Escapee,
I love how you summed it up “you don’t take it personally if a dog bites you – no matter how hard, do you?” That’s a great point! The Ps and Ss of the world are just doing what they were born to do. I just got in his path by accident and got bitten.

Eyeswideshut, Can you tell us the name of the site you found that is about sociopaths? I found one written by S, and am wondering if its the same.
Its http://www.sociopathworld.com
Very chilling comments but I think it helped me to “hear it from the horses mouth” so to speak.

I just went back to that sight for sociopaths- they were discussing Martha Stouts book about sociopaths- Laughing and mocking the “check lists” to spot sociopathy.
One comment from a S was “let them (the empaths/normals) chase ghosts.” – meaning that they found humor and satisfaction in the fact that we try to educate ourselves on the red flags of a S.
They were mocking our “fear” (however, they NEVER claim that it is unwarranted or overexaggerated.)
One comment from a S said that he was glad the general public didnt read her (Martha Stouts) book because there are truths found in this checklists to spot S traits.

You will see in the website where most S say they are somewhat conflicted or have at least been puzzled ,even afraid of their own thoughts and actions-ie the blogger who stated when his best friend died, he didnt attend the funeral, felt nothing,etc. He stated that he had “warned” friends about his own self and what he is capable of doing to others. He claimed he “always’ goes back to his old behavior (of manipulating, destroying) others.
This site makes my skin crawl. Even the S knows that he is a danger to society but their “holier than thou” pious, glib, concieted attitude supercedes any truths that might lie in the damaged, malfunctioning brain of a S.
Nevertheless, this site should be a must read for all of us to enable us to “get real” about how these subhumans really live.

P.S. One S said she had always had a huge nail biting habit, but discovered on http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed1830804 where S have a huge predisposition to nailbiting-

INTERESTING- My X N/P had a HUGE problem as well with nail biting! (note- i have not yet been to the above site for verification of this fact, and given that it came from a S, I should have researched myself first for the validity of it)but her comment rang true for my experience. I thought it ODD that an adult sat around knawing at his nails with such aggression!

Eyeswideshut,

Thanks for the site link: SOCIOPATHWORLD
Will follow it and it looks interesting and possibly revealing. Thanks!

sabrina,
Before I found LF I had found a few other sites and read many, many post made by self proclaimed or diagnosed sociopaths. Although it often made my skin crawl, I found much of the information valuable. It was there that I really understood (a little better) the wide spectrum of how like any thing else, these disorders have some range. From one end of the spectrum to the other. Also much was learned by the fact that many sociopaths openly disscussed how they came to the “KNOWING” that they were different during their teenage years. And how it seemed to manifest within themselves.

The only time I found these sites to be of no further use is when they would “egg each other” or push each others buttons, occasionaly and all H*** would break loose.

For awile I was on a site that I actively asked many questions to a sociopath about his own childhood and asked him his opinion on the nurture/nature issue. His perception of who he was, was very enlightning.

On the site that you mentioned I found that one comment in particular to be very interesting. About the sociopath personality “thinking” being outside the box and how they have never been INSIDE the box. Hearing a sociopath describe their own behaviors and thinking, from their own perspective is so much different then when the “normals” are saying the SAME things per say, and trying to put in it OUR words from our perspective. It is very chilling to hear how they can read us so well and BECOME whatever they need to become, so we allow them into our lives.

Hi Witsend- Thanks for your comments on those sites. This S site (sociopathicworld.com)brings alot of clarity about really how they think. As I read it, I think
WHY would ANY one associate with this type person?? There is no benefit for US- the S pretty much admits that.

One S asked the question- What is lies? IF the person makes you feel happy WHEN WITH YOU, WHY DO YOU CARE WHAT HE/SHE REALLY THINKS OR DOES WHEN NOT WITH YOU?

SHEESH!!!! – UH- maybeee cause this is REAL life not the movieeess! AND S shouldnt give themselves credit for making ANYONE HAPPY- unless the idea of being “duct taped to the bottom of your car and being dragged by your S, to and fro in aimless/pointless directions makes you HAPPY!

Anyways, I am having a bit of a rough day with flashbacks of sooo many nasty things the X n/p said to me -especially during the months of d&d (devalue, discard.) I cant quite figure out why I didnt say at some point- ANY point during it- WHAAT THE HELL IS WRONG WIth you???

Witsend- Im sorry I meant to ask you about your son b4 I got off on this tangent.. I hope you are doing ok.:)

I had to do it. I checked out the “SociopathWorld”.

I also found some valuable nuggets of information to answer questions that have haunted me for years.
It’s kind of like shopping in a bargain basement. You have to sift through the bullshit to get to the good (relevant) stuff.

I am 35 pages from finishing Martha Stout’s book, “Sociopath Next Door”. Thus far, I have found the book to be right on. I think the reason they mock it over at SociopathWorld is that maybe it hits a little too close to home for a lot of them.
One of them actually posted that his/her biggest fear was being “out-ed” (as a sociopath).

I agree that there is a much larger spectrum of this disorder than I realized, after visiting that site.

P.S. Don’t you love how they post to each other over there? They say things like, “Boy, you are really F***** up.”
But, I guess that is what it boils down to for a lot of them.
They sure won’t admit it in public, though, will they?

Sabrina: “If the person makes you feel happy when with you, why do you care what he/she thinks or does when NOT with you?”
My stomach turned on that one!! My ex-S boyfriend used to say almost those exact words to me when I would question him about things that would go on behind my back. His response would ALWAYS be “What difference does it make?” or “Why do you care?”

Rosa,

Checking out the SociopathWorld myself so please don’t give away the ending, oh that’s right I know how it ends…LOL…

Anyway had to take a power nap due to some unexpected stress and will start reading it again.

James:

I am going to take a shower, because I just came off of SociopathWorld, and then I am going to finish reading my book. 🙂

Rosa, sounds like a plan to me.
Later! 🙂

Sabrina,
I am sorry you are having such a rough day…..I would suppose the reason you didn’t say anything while you were being “devalued” by your X/S is that by past experience you knew it wouldn’t do any good. They have a way of turning everything you would say around to suit themselves anyways.

How are things going with your son?

I had a run in with my son today. This has been kind of in the works for the past few days. The under current beneath the calm. He has been trying to push my buttons over the weekend and I have been trying to just let it go. He has this new thing lately where as he acts as if there is no food in the house. And of course there is food I am just letting him fend for himself when he isn’t around for dinner. When I ask when he works during the week and he is arrogant in his answer if I have plans or am unavailable to give him a ride (because he refuses to tell me ahead of time) I don’t worry about it. He can walk. It’s a long walk. He has become REALLY quite arrogant about his job and acts as if he is entitled to??? I’m not sure what? Acts as if he is the only person who works and is ALWAYS putting my job down because I work alot from home. For some reason he seems to think it isn’t a “real” job because I don’t have to always go “outside” the home to work? When I do work outside the home I do shows and it is long grueling hours. He knows this and yet acts as if I don’t even HAVE a job!

What this is all about I don’t know? Supieriority towards me? If you heard him talk he does everything around here? All the physical labor (his EXACT words)? He DOES NOTHING!!!!! Cuts the grass maybe twice a month. Makes himself a sandwich once in awile. Thats as physical as it gets. I swear his lack of reality, scares me. When someone lies so over the top are they trying to convince themselves or others?

Rosa- The similarities are chilling- with our own personal experiences here AND what S say on that site. And yea, they do talk to each other pretty raw!! I feel really strange on that site- like I am eavesdropping on a bank robbery or something. It FEELS “dark.” I want to scream out to the “empaths”, normals that are questioning the S (as IF the S gives a rats ass about them or the questions) TO COME TO THIS SITE FOR REAL HELP. However, I dont particulary want the S that havent found us here to “study” up using US as their textbooks to learn “How to act human” in order to “catch A human”!!!!

Witsend- OH My gosh, My son says the EXACT same -FOR YEARS when he is around me-especially on stints where he has been living here that I DONT WORK, dont cook,no food(says its all healthy stuff normal people dont eat ecsept me)Its incredible!!!As you may already know, I run a business, am single now and have been for most of my sons life so I work VERY hard. My son actually said that I have never worked as hard as he has!! What a joke.

He said when he was here last, that he did ALL the housework!!! Like you said the lack of reality is maddening!!! It pushes my buttons so hard, b/c its so far from the truth, normal people cant even fathom a comment such as those.

I learned a trick, wish I had figured out sooner- PRETEND if you can, that those comments dont bother you in front of your son.

If you have to get in the car, go down the street SCREAMING your head off- TRY to be AMAZINGLY CALM. He cant torture you with repeated comments that dont get a rise from you.If he knows it sets you off he will do it just for a fireworks show!!
OVer and over again.
I remember my X n/p when fights were going on, he would get my head spinnin’ round, then he would be strangely CALM -all makes sense now with no real emotions, you can turn it on and off at will.

I hate this so bad for you, as I lived the same for so long. I have basically went n/c with my son. The few times since he left that we have spoken, he said such cruel things to me, it just hit me that I might as well have him here again if I ALLOW him to keep abusing me in that way.

I dont feel quilty for NOt calling to check on him. He uses all opportunities to bash me in one way or another. He even makes comments to me like I have a “different” man in my bed every week- AMAZING- I DONT EVEN DATE and HE has never seen a different man other than those I was married to IN MY BED!!! ANother hot button for him to push on with me.
I just remember PRAYING for calmness, praying to NOT SNAP when he came out with the most hideous untrue comments.

I do feel true to sociopathic nature- my sons boredom caused anger, and the need to stir up discord was strong. My son fits the N description perfectly in that his disposition is usually very distrusting, negative, and sullen. When he is “acting” – either for favors or to impress others- he is happy go lucky, the persona of sweet and respectful, but it never lasts longer than the cash he talks you out of.Then he is back to making drama.

Thanks for your insightful comment about why I didnt ask my X about his bad behaviors. You are very perceptive- Same reason I never asked him to pay his fair share- NEVER would of happened. I guess it was avoidance on my part against adding more discomfort in the relationship.
Take care. xoxox

I visited the site and I don’t think it’s very enlightening. Many of those self-proclaimed AsPD/S/Ps consider themselves to be more “highly evolved.”

But I think the perponderance of evidence, including the topic of this very page, supports the opposite: that parts of their brains are inadequately developed.

I also doubt that many of those people are truly AsPD/S/P, it seems to me that they are mostly ill-behaved youngsters who want to think of themselves as special.

Witsend: You are dealing with disordered thinking. Please do not treat it as if your son’s words have any connection to reality. He is young, so his destructive manipulations are not as sly as they might be if he stays on this path.

In your words, “He has become REALLY quite arrogant about his job and acts as if he is entitled to??? I’m not sure what? Acts as if he is the only person who works and is ALWAYS putting my job down because I work alot from home. For some reason he seems to think it isn’t a “real” job because I don’t have to always go “outside” the home to work? When I do work outside the home I do shows and it is long grueling hours. He knows this and yet acts as if I don’t even HAVE a job!

“What this is all about I don’t know? Supieriority towards me? If you heard him talk he does everything around here? All the physical labor (his EXACT words)? He DOES NOTHING!!!!! Cuts the grass maybe twice a month. Makes himself a sandwich once in awile. Thats as physical as it gets. I swear his lack of reality, scares me. When someone lies so over the top are they trying to convince themselves or others?”

Witsend, you are treating his words AS IF THEY WERE VALID. Stop. Every remark is designed to put you on the defensive, and if you are on the defensive, he has control of you.

Stop believing any of his words. That’s how he takes the upper hand. Stop thinking that any of his so-called “judgments: of you have anything to do with you. He is manipulating you into a sense of guilt, when that is completely unjustified. Don’t let him

Deep breath, and remember — you are the adult here. You understand reality. Do not give his words any credit at all. And stay calm and safe.

dsch

Sorry but I would have to disagree with you concerning this Blog “SociopathWorld”. In fact if I was in class studying Psychology and were asked to do a thesis on Personality Disorders and the many aspect of the disorder this site would in fact offer me a world (no pun intended) of information. I do agree that some posters there are of a younger age in fact the author himself might/would fit into this same age bracket. Having only read half of the many entries I can say it hard reading and at times could unleash some unpleasant memories so I would warn others unless one have a deep inquisitiveness about some of the many dimensions and egotistical mind set of an cluster B personality disorder in my opinion this site is best avoided. For here at SociopathWorld the only answers you will find is those you ask yourself.

But thanks for the link sabrina. As we all know SociopathWorld is a fantasy World and most of them who live there are only phantoms of this sociality.

Rune & Sabrina,
I’m sorry sometimes I am not good with words and articulating what I am trying to say.

I didn’t mean to imply that I always take his words to heart….I have learned to try to turn off emotion when dealing with him. I try really HARD not to let him push my buttons or “lure” me in with his insults. For my own reasons I think it is not in my best interest to show my vulnerable side with him on any level. He seems to use it against me.

Naturally sometimes he wears me down and I might not always react the way I would like. Or occasionaly he will catch me really off guard when he introduces a “new” off the wall behavior. Lately I find that his “insults” actually piss me off more than they hurt me. Although this was not always the case.
What I was trying to say in that post was that his lack of reality DOES scare me and I AM SO UNABLE to define it or articulate it when I am talking to someone like his counselor or someone I really want to make this “point” with. Much of the stuff he says is kind of crazy. So far fetched.

As EMOTIONAL as I can be when I get on here posting, I try not to be that way in front of him. I believe that I get soooo emotional here because this is like my sounding board? I ALMOST feel compeled sometimes to say this stuff out loud because it is almost sureal to me sometimes that it is my reality with my son. Does that make sense? And although posting here isn’t exactly saying it outloud it is the close enough.
To my dismay I also get emotional sometimes when talking to his counselor or some of the other outside resources I have turned to for help. I believe that is usually my frustration. Both in my inability to “make a long story, short” and say what I think needs to be said in a few minutes time I might have with these people. Or also the closed door tratment that I am so accustomed to getting from these agencys/people.

Dearest Witsend, I wanted to let you know that I
posted to you on the Part 10 thread. If you havent read it already.. take care

James, Shockingly, On Sociopathworld.com I saw where in May (around 24th or so ) the author of the site actually copied one of my posts from LF onto his site! He didnt give the name of LF, just that he got it from what he called an “anti-S” site.
The caption/picture above my post had “down with sociopaths” written on it which was quite comical. So LF even gets attention from the S sites.

Check it out when you get the chance. Some of the comments were that “the fear” I had (assuming I have) of a S is “pathetic.” How strange to me that a S would say that . However its purely predictable as they ARE “walking contradictions.”
I ‘ve never seen a S be anything but paranoid and untrusting of each other. My opinion-Their “fear” of being “outted” is pretty pathetic. People have the right to know who or in this case “what” they are dealing with.

Sociopathworld was plenty in 10 sec I read on there. What kind of code do they have? I thought they would want to not “clique together”. This is so disturbing. Wonder what Dr Leedom/ Donna think of this.
It’s pure evil, but totally “undressed”. Are they trying to Outdo each other? I don’t grasp how any of what they are boasting about can be pleasurable? One was talking about “perfecting his skill with women”. they really do think we are meat… How I wish sometimes I could wake up from this nightmare…

witsend,

Try this out for your own mental health.

There is his reality and your reality. Your emotional patterns and his emotional patterns. Forget about your feelings of responsibility for him, just for a moment. It complicates your thinking. You’re just two people.

So, if someone came up to you on the street, and said, “The sky is green and the sun is purple today.” You might respond, “Really? In my world, the sky is the usual blue and the sun is, well, bright.” If someone came up to you, and told you he washed you car and you looked at it still covered with road dust, you could say, “Really?” and get in your car and drive away. If an old boyfriend showed up, and said he’s never stop thinking about you since you left him, you could say, “That’s actually not how I remember it. I remember you left me. Now I’m over it. I haven’t thought about you in years.”

In all these exchanges, you held onto your own reality. And you recognized that the other person’s was different. Sometimes you mentioned that. Sometimes you didn’t. You didn’t judge. You just noticed.

Feeling responsible and terrified about what he’s becoming is becoming a major factor in your relationship. And it’s something that, if he’s obstructive, can be one of the things he becomes obstructive against. Unless he’s actively trying to pick a fight with you, what you’re dealing with is simply two different ways of interpreting reality.

Comments like “so that’s how you see things” or “so you say” can be neutral, and yet keep you on your own side of the reality chasm. “That’s actually not my reality” or “I remember it differently” is a little more confrontational, but not a lot. “I wonder how that approach works” or “is that how it look to you?” are a little more inquisitive, but not argumentative. “It’s not the way I see things” may be the most direct thing you can say.

In all of this, you are not arguing with him. But you are making a verbal note that you two don’t interpret the facts the same way.

If he finds this irritating, you can ask him if he’s looking for you to see the things the same way he does. And if so, what difference does it make to him? Honest questions.

If this seems to drive him toward some kind of abuse, you can reassure him that he’s welcome to his reality. You’re not arguing. You just have your own.

If, God forbid, he gets abusive about his, you may have a problem about him attempting to dominate you. And it needs to be nipped in the bud. Remind him that your reality is that he’s living rent free and eating free, while you’re working to support it all. If he thinks he’s ready to live on his own, he can run away. There’s the door.

But it might not be that. It might be simply that he doesn’t have a particularly good grip on reality. All people tend overvalue their own work, as they do their own possessions if they try to sell them, as they do a lot of things. The fact that he is doing this sounds a lot like adolescence. A lot of teenagers don’t have a grip on absolute value until they get out into the real world and learn what an entry-level worker is actually worth. And in the meantime, a job makes him a big boy.

All of this is not to say he doesn’t have identity issues and conduct problems. But the fact that his perception of value — and particularly his value — is a little whacked out isn’t usual for boys trying to find heir way in the world.

I know you’re frustrated and I’m not trying to minimize your challenges. Just maybe help to make part of it more manageable. I’ve seen this in most of the boys and men in my life, at one time or another. Their egos are tied to achievement. It’s a men’s world thing.

And if you want to get down to a shared reality occasionally, you can say, “Really? My memory is that you’ve mowed the lawn twice in that last month, and that’s all the housework I’m aware of. So I don’t think you’ve been carrying the load. But if you’re doing more, please let me know, so I can give you credit for it.”

Or “I eat at 6, and then I’m done with cooking. (You’re reality) If you’re home, I’m glad to feed you. If you’re not, you can stop at Burger King if you don’t want to cook.”

Or “If you give me your schedule ahead of time, I’ll tell you the days I can pick you up. Otherwise you take your chances.”

In all these examples, he earns what he gets. If he doesn’t want to do that, he’s responsible for the outcome. You can remind him of the way it works, if he complains. “This is how it works for me. If you want me to do something for you, you have to work with my reality.”

None of this is challenging his reality or arguing with him. It’s just teaching him to work with yours. On his own time he can be as puffed up and important as he wants.

I hope I haven’t been too intrusive here. I’ve been doing some reality training with my own son. So it’s top of mind with me.

Kathy

That sociopathworld link was incredibly chilling reading. I was especially amused by the article where an S idealized their ‘species’ as somehow unique and different!
Scary stuff if it wasn’t so bloomin funny!
And for the record, though I’m no sociopath, if I met a baby who I knew would grow up sociopathic or to be another Hitler and I had the option of killing it, you’re damned right I would kill it!
We Normals understand that there is a time and a place for killing, that sometimes killing/harming other living beings (human or animal), in certain circumstances, is essential. Sociopaths don’t get that distinction coupled with their tendency to follow the path of least resistance, and therein lies the problem…

Sabrina, I saw that post referencing you awhile back as I occasionally read sociopathworld ever since you first posted the link awhile back. Another site I used to follow was sociopathic.net. Reading Petronix’s question/answer section was very enlightening. On that site there were several diagnosed sociopaths/dissocials (same thing as psychopath in Europe I believe). One lady in particular stood out.

She was a Nurse, had a long marriage, and several kids. She was a grade mother at her youngest kids school, did all the “ordinary” things anyone might do with a normal lifestyle, went out of her way to fit in because she wanted a “normal” lifestyle and family, said she never deliberately hurt anyone at work (while Nursing), had never cheated on her spouse and made it clear she never would as it did not fit into her “game plan”, was a self professed pathological liar (and was proud she was so good at it), felt NOTHING when her parents died, although she was “possessive” in the sense of family and felt somewhat protective of family (even siblings) because they were “hers” so to speak……… well, the point is although she owned up to no feelings, the over the top lying and manipulating,…she also made it clear she went out of her way to avoid deliberately causing harm to others. She was different, liked how she was, liked her life, liked her husband (although she felt no “love” for him like we express it) and their lifestyle. She also liked to dabble in pot smoking to alleviate boredom and mellow out, and liked high risk, exiciting activities. Although she said she went out of her way to fit in and NOT hurt anyone………………….(drum roll) she also spent alot of time fantasizing about KILLING people.
There is some other site I followed for awhile, too, but can’t recall the URL at the moment.

Sociopathic.net also mentioned Lovefraud a couple of times in some posts. Mostly when they were making fun of some of the “ordinary” behavior that quite alot of “normal” people engage in from time to time, yet Lovefrauders were attributing it to being sociopathic behavior. They basically find us clueless about real sociopathic behavior and hypersensitive to things that are not sociopathic and seeing sociopathic behavior behind alot of quite normal behavior. They also seemed to think we were pretty dumb in always thinking some of the obvious “outrageous” behavior that other PD’s can behave in were due to “sociopathic” disorder.

Bottom line (for me) is that yes, alot of the reading on those sites is very chilling. BUT if you can wade thru the kids who sometimes post (the sociopathic wannabe’s) and just stick with the reading for awhile, I learned a tremendous amount of insight from some of the sociopaths and it helped me enormously in dealing with my ex.

While doing a little surfing the net this morning I came over this link describing Net trolls and bullies. I thought it offered some good information.

“I actually find that there are two classes of people who cause maximum trouble on forums. One is of course, the traditional “troll” who wreaks havoc by anti-social behaviour and by deliberately riling up forum members to get kicks out of it, causing havoc and bad blood in the process.”

To read the entirely of the thread I have pasted the following link:

http://www.theadminzone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26193&p=189571

Jen2008

Thanks for the word on Sociopathic.net will check it out when I can.

http://sociopathic.net/enter.htm

🙂

There actually was a film about a boy who has lived through killing of his whole family during WWII. He saw his sweetheart taken away by 5-6 soldiers and raped. When they showed her again, she was walking around in a daze, bleeding between her legs, – you get the pic. The boy found a gun and at some point came upon Hitler’s photo. he shot at it, and the time went back to before the war. he shot again, and the film showed people moving backwards, Hitler just starting his “career”. He shot again and the film showed Hitler as a 9year old. The boy shot once more, and on the screen you could see a (true ) photo of a mother and a baby. This was the authentic picture of the Hitler Family. The boy could not fire the next shot. You sit waiting for the wrong to be set right, yet, you realize that humanity is what keeps us from killing babies, even knowing that they will grow up to do terrible things (NOT planning to be controversial or offensive, just sharing about a film. I can’t recall the name but will post it once I do, although its hard to see films like that lately)

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