This week I want to reach out to all of you who feel that you can no longer trust people. Imagine a world where your worst fears have come true, a world where everyone over the age of 15 is a sociopath. What would it be like to live in that world?
If you only read one book this summer, I strongly urge you to read Chimpanzee Politics: Power and Sex Among Apes by Frans de Waal. I have said before that I think the social-brain of sociopaths is similar to that of chimps. Now having read that book I am even more convinced.
Chimpanzee Politics is the true life story of the relationships between individuals of the Arnhem Chimp Colony. Scientists carefully observed, photographed, filmed and recorded every interaction between troop members over several years. I don’t want to give away the story, because it is shocking, and you should read it for yourself. The chimps’ story is presented as a very readable narrative that brings to life all of their individual personalities.
I want to outline here the major findings that help us to understand ourselves and sociopaths.
1) Chimpanzees practice deception extensively. Take this example given on page 36:
Dandy is the youngest and lowest ranking of the four grown males. The other three, and in particular the alpha male, do not tolerate any sexual intercourse between Dandy and the adult females. Nevertheless, every now and again he does succeed in mating with them after having made a “date.” When this happens Dandy and the female pretend to be walking in the same direction by chance, and if all goes well they meet behind a few tree trunks. These dates take place after the exchange of a few glances and in some case a brief nudge.
This kind of mating is frequently associated with signal suppression and concealment. ..Dandy and a female were courting each other surreptitiously. Dandy began to make advances to the female, while at the same time restlessly looking around to see if any of the other males were watching. Male chimpanzees start their advances by sitting with their legs wide apart revealing their erection. Precisely at the point when Dandy was exhibiting his sexual urge in this way Luit, one of the older males, unexpectedly came around the corner. Dandy immediately dropped his hands over his penis concealing it from view.
2) Chimpanzees manipulate and instigate.
3) Chimpanzees fake emotions to get attention and influence others.
4) Chimpanzees hurt one another and only care about the hurt because of what others will think. There is an awareness that hurting is wrong and those who hurt are punished, but they do not appear to care unless someone else sees it.
5) A male chimpanzee will use a “friend” to form a coalition to achieve his aims, then soon after turn on the friend. Male chimps have no problem killing their “friends.”
6) Most interestingly, chimpanzees remember each other and recognize individuals but only females take that a step further and maintain a slightly loyal relationship with another individual. All of the chimps’ loyalties are temporary. Their loyalties are based on exchange. Touch which feels good, sex, food and protection are part of the exchange. They have incredible memories for who they have done favors for, and who has done favors for them. The pleasure they receive due to another’s actions is not lasting and if a coalition is to be maintained, it has to be continually reinforced, with touch, food, sex or some other favor.
7) For chimps, affectionate touching is part of dominance coalition development as opposed to meaningful friendship. In other words, my dog comes to get a caress and kiss me because I am special and he loves me. A chimp engages in the same behavior because he knows it will get him something.
I am very interested in the idea that affection and touching can be part of either love or power motives in humans. It is my observation that many of the worst sociopaths/psychopaths enjoy giving and receiving a touch and a hug. If they are incapable of love how can this be? Is it really all fake? I do not think so. I wrote one of the country’s leading chimpanzee experts about the idea that touching is linked to dominance and power motivation. This is what he replied:
Your recent email was very interesting. Indeed there has been a considerable amount of research on grooming in chimpanzees and it appears that much of male grooming does conform to your hypothesis about grooming being related to dominance status. The grooming is clearly related to achieving or maintaining status and usually does not indicate anything close to affection.
A related phenomenon is the role of grooming in all male patrols in wild chimpanzees. Chimpanzees live in large groups that are highly territorial. All male coalitions sometime form and engage intense grooming among themselves. They proceed in single file towards the territorial boundary, remaining uncharacteristically silent (as if on radio silence). If they then encounter a single male from the adjoining troop they attack him usually killing or severely injuring him. Females or infants from the adjoining population are also sometimes killed.
So grooming in the first case is simply part of a political strategy involving status. In the second case, it seems to solidify group coherence to achieve a rather nasty result.
I offer you this to help you in your recovery: next time you are daydreaming of that wonderful touch from the sociopath you loved, picture the person with the face of a chimp! Get it through your head, the touch was not about love. It was about power and control over you. Like chimps, sociopaths can only retain the pleasure of what you bring them for a short time. The minute you no longer serve a purpose you risk being discarded or worse.
Now go back to imagining a world consumed with deception, fake emotion, manipulation, power and violence. That is the world of the chimpanzee NOT the world of homo sapiens. The majority of our species has the capacity for bonds of affection. Furthermore, for many, many people, real affection and genuine caring even extends to strangers. After reading deWaal’s account, I feel very optimistic about us.
DeWaal drew some interesting conclusions of his own:
Politicians, for example, are vociferous about their ideas and promises but are careful not to disclose personal aspirations for power. This is not meant to be a reproach, because after all everyone plays the same game. I would go further and say that we are largely unaware that we are playing a game and hide our motives not only from others but also underestimate the immense effect they have on our own behavior. Chimpanzees, on the other hand are quite blatant about their “baser” motives. Their interest in power is not greater than that of humanity; it is just more obvious”¦Humans should regard it as an honor to be classified as political animals.
I agree that humans as a species are preoccupied with power and that the preoccupation is no less than that of the chimpanzee. However, balancing that power motive for most of us is an equally strong love motive. The love motive, not our political cunning is our true claim to greatness and honor. Thankfully, for humans, unbalanced power motives, egocentricity and the incapacity for love constitute a disorder and not our way of life.
Rune & Sabrina,
I’m sorry sometimes I am not good with words and articulating what I am trying to say.
I didn’t mean to imply that I always take his words to heart….I have learned to try to turn off emotion when dealing with him. I try really HARD not to let him push my buttons or “lure” me in with his insults. For my own reasons I think it is not in my best interest to show my vulnerable side with him on any level. He seems to use it against me.
Naturally sometimes he wears me down and I might not always react the way I would like. Or occasionaly he will catch me really off guard when he introduces a “new” off the wall behavior. Lately I find that his “insults” actually piss me off more than they hurt me. Although this was not always the case.
What I was trying to say in that post was that his lack of reality DOES scare me and I AM SO UNABLE to define it or articulate it when I am talking to someone like his counselor or someone I really want to make this “point” with. Much of the stuff he says is kind of crazy. So far fetched.
As EMOTIONAL as I can be when I get on here posting, I try not to be that way in front of him. I believe that I get soooo emotional here because this is like my sounding board? I ALMOST feel compeled sometimes to say this stuff out loud because it is almost sureal to me sometimes that it is my reality with my son. Does that make sense? And although posting here isn’t exactly saying it outloud it is the close enough.
To my dismay I also get emotional sometimes when talking to his counselor or some of the other outside resources I have turned to for help. I believe that is usually my frustration. Both in my inability to “make a long story, short” and say what I think needs to be said in a few minutes time I might have with these people. Or also the closed door tratment that I am so accustomed to getting from these agencys/people.
Dearest Witsend, I wanted to let you know that I
posted to you on the Part 10 thread. If you havent read it already.. take care
James, Shockingly, On Sociopathworld.com I saw where in May (around 24th or so ) the author of the site actually copied one of my posts from LF onto his site! He didnt give the name of LF, just that he got it from what he called an “anti-S” site.
The caption/picture above my post had “down with sociopaths” written on it which was quite comical. So LF even gets attention from the S sites.
Check it out when you get the chance. Some of the comments were that “the fear” I had (assuming I have) of a S is “pathetic.” How strange to me that a S would say that . However its purely predictable as they ARE “walking contradictions.”
I ‘ve never seen a S be anything but paranoid and untrusting of each other. My opinion-Their “fear” of being “outted” is pretty pathetic. People have the right to know who or in this case “what” they are dealing with.
Sociopathworld was plenty in 10 sec I read on there. What kind of code do they have? I thought they would want to not “clique together”. This is so disturbing. Wonder what Dr Leedom/ Donna think of this.
It’s pure evil, but totally “undressed”. Are they trying to Outdo each other? I don’t grasp how any of what they are boasting about can be pleasurable? One was talking about “perfecting his skill with women”. they really do think we are meat… How I wish sometimes I could wake up from this nightmare…
witsend,
Try this out for your own mental health.
There is his reality and your reality. Your emotional patterns and his emotional patterns. Forget about your feelings of responsibility for him, just for a moment. It complicates your thinking. You’re just two people.
So, if someone came up to you on the street, and said, “The sky is green and the sun is purple today.” You might respond, “Really? In my world, the sky is the usual blue and the sun is, well, bright.” If someone came up to you, and told you he washed you car and you looked at it still covered with road dust, you could say, “Really?” and get in your car and drive away. If an old boyfriend showed up, and said he’s never stop thinking about you since you left him, you could say, “That’s actually not how I remember it. I remember you left me. Now I’m over it. I haven’t thought about you in years.”
In all these exchanges, you held onto your own reality. And you recognized that the other person’s was different. Sometimes you mentioned that. Sometimes you didn’t. You didn’t judge. You just noticed.
Feeling responsible and terrified about what he’s becoming is becoming a major factor in your relationship. And it’s something that, if he’s obstructive, can be one of the things he becomes obstructive against. Unless he’s actively trying to pick a fight with you, what you’re dealing with is simply two different ways of interpreting reality.
Comments like “so that’s how you see things” or “so you say” can be neutral, and yet keep you on your own side of the reality chasm. “That’s actually not my reality” or “I remember it differently” is a little more confrontational, but not a lot. “I wonder how that approach works” or “is that how it look to you?” are a little more inquisitive, but not argumentative. “It’s not the way I see things” may be the most direct thing you can say.
In all of this, you are not arguing with him. But you are making a verbal note that you two don’t interpret the facts the same way.
If he finds this irritating, you can ask him if he’s looking for you to see the things the same way he does. And if so, what difference does it make to him? Honest questions.
If this seems to drive him toward some kind of abuse, you can reassure him that he’s welcome to his reality. You’re not arguing. You just have your own.
If, God forbid, he gets abusive about his, you may have a problem about him attempting to dominate you. And it needs to be nipped in the bud. Remind him that your reality is that he’s living rent free and eating free, while you’re working to support it all. If he thinks he’s ready to live on his own, he can run away. There’s the door.
But it might not be that. It might be simply that he doesn’t have a particularly good grip on reality. All people tend overvalue their own work, as they do their own possessions if they try to sell them, as they do a lot of things. The fact that he is doing this sounds a lot like adolescence. A lot of teenagers don’t have a grip on absolute value until they get out into the real world and learn what an entry-level worker is actually worth. And in the meantime, a job makes him a big boy.
All of this is not to say he doesn’t have identity issues and conduct problems. But the fact that his perception of value — and particularly his value — is a little whacked out isn’t usual for boys trying to find heir way in the world.
I know you’re frustrated and I’m not trying to minimize your challenges. Just maybe help to make part of it more manageable. I’ve seen this in most of the boys and men in my life, at one time or another. Their egos are tied to achievement. It’s a men’s world thing.
And if you want to get down to a shared reality occasionally, you can say, “Really? My memory is that you’ve mowed the lawn twice in that last month, and that’s all the housework I’m aware of. So I don’t think you’ve been carrying the load. But if you’re doing more, please let me know, so I can give you credit for it.”
Or “I eat at 6, and then I’m done with cooking. (You’re reality) If you’re home, I’m glad to feed you. If you’re not, you can stop at Burger King if you don’t want to cook.”
Or “If you give me your schedule ahead of time, I’ll tell you the days I can pick you up. Otherwise you take your chances.”
In all these examples, he earns what he gets. If he doesn’t want to do that, he’s responsible for the outcome. You can remind him of the way it works, if he complains. “This is how it works for me. If you want me to do something for you, you have to work with my reality.”
None of this is challenging his reality or arguing with him. It’s just teaching him to work with yours. On his own time he can be as puffed up and important as he wants.
I hope I haven’t been too intrusive here. I’ve been doing some reality training with my own son. So it’s top of mind with me.
Kathy
That sociopathworld link was incredibly chilling reading. I was especially amused by the article where an S idealized their ‘species’ as somehow unique and different!
Scary stuff if it wasn’t so bloomin funny!
And for the record, though I’m no sociopath, if I met a baby who I knew would grow up sociopathic or to be another Hitler and I had the option of killing it, you’re damned right I would kill it!
We Normals understand that there is a time and a place for killing, that sometimes killing/harming other living beings (human or animal), in certain circumstances, is essential. Sociopaths don’t get that distinction coupled with their tendency to follow the path of least resistance, and therein lies the problem…
Sabrina, I saw that post referencing you awhile back as I occasionally read sociopathworld ever since you first posted the link awhile back. Another site I used to follow was sociopathic.net. Reading Petronix’s question/answer section was very enlightening. On that site there were several diagnosed sociopaths/dissocials (same thing as psychopath in Europe I believe). One lady in particular stood out.
She was a Nurse, had a long marriage, and several kids. She was a grade mother at her youngest kids school, did all the “ordinary” things anyone might do with a normal lifestyle, went out of her way to fit in because she wanted a “normal” lifestyle and family, said she never deliberately hurt anyone at work (while Nursing), had never cheated on her spouse and made it clear she never would as it did not fit into her “game plan”, was a self professed pathological liar (and was proud she was so good at it), felt NOTHING when her parents died, although she was “possessive” in the sense of family and felt somewhat protective of family (even siblings) because they were “hers” so to speak……… well, the point is although she owned up to no feelings, the over the top lying and manipulating,…she also made it clear she went out of her way to avoid deliberately causing harm to others. She was different, liked how she was, liked her life, liked her husband (although she felt no “love” for him like we express it) and their lifestyle. She also liked to dabble in pot smoking to alleviate boredom and mellow out, and liked high risk, exiciting activities. Although she said she went out of her way to fit in and NOT hurt anyone………………….(drum roll) she also spent alot of time fantasizing about KILLING people.
There is some other site I followed for awhile, too, but can’t recall the URL at the moment.
Sociopathic.net also mentioned Lovefraud a couple of times in some posts. Mostly when they were making fun of some of the “ordinary” behavior that quite alot of “normal” people engage in from time to time, yet Lovefrauders were attributing it to being sociopathic behavior. They basically find us clueless about real sociopathic behavior and hypersensitive to things that are not sociopathic and seeing sociopathic behavior behind alot of quite normal behavior. They also seemed to think we were pretty dumb in always thinking some of the obvious “outrageous” behavior that other PD’s can behave in were due to “sociopathic” disorder.
Bottom line (for me) is that yes, alot of the reading on those sites is very chilling. BUT if you can wade thru the kids who sometimes post (the sociopathic wannabe’s) and just stick with the reading for awhile, I learned a tremendous amount of insight from some of the sociopaths and it helped me enormously in dealing with my ex.
While doing a little surfing the net this morning I came over this link describing Net trolls and bullies. I thought it offered some good information.
“I actually find that there are two classes of people who cause maximum trouble on forums. One is of course, the traditional “troll” who wreaks havoc by anti-social behaviour and by deliberately riling up forum members to get kicks out of it, causing havoc and bad blood in the process.”
To read the entirely of the thread I have pasted the following link:
http://www.theadminzone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26193&p=189571
Jen2008
Thanks for the word on Sociopathic.net will check it out when I can.
http://sociopathic.net/enter.htm
🙂
There actually was a film about a boy who has lived through killing of his whole family during WWII. He saw his sweetheart taken away by 5-6 soldiers and raped. When they showed her again, she was walking around in a daze, bleeding between her legs, – you get the pic. The boy found a gun and at some point came upon Hitler’s photo. he shot at it, and the time went back to before the war. he shot again, and the film showed people moving backwards, Hitler just starting his “career”. He shot again and the film showed Hitler as a 9year old. The boy shot once more, and on the screen you could see a (true ) photo of a mother and a baby. This was the authentic picture of the Hitler Family. The boy could not fire the next shot. You sit waiting for the wrong to be set right, yet, you realize that humanity is what keeps us from killing babies, even knowing that they will grow up to do terrible things (NOT planning to be controversial or offensive, just sharing about a film. I can’t recall the name but will post it once I do, although its hard to see films like that lately)