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A sociopath will leave you out in the cold every time

The day after Christmas, I got a lesson in respecting the elements. It was about 35°F, not really that cold, but there was quite a wind chill. The kids and I went to the beach to run the dog on the sand at about 3:30 in the afternoon. We got back to the van at about 5 to discover that good old Mom had lost her keys. (Actually, a prior foster dog had chewed a hole in my jacket pocket and the keys fell out.) I ended up calling a taxi, but we waited in the elements for at least an hour total.

We were all properly dressed with boots, hats, gloves and heavy jackets. In spite of being prepared, we were chilled to the bone when we finally got home. I said to my daughter, “I can see how easy it is to freeze to death in the cold, and why people die when they get stuck in the snow.”

I’m sure most people who live in places where it gets dangerously cold have their own stories to tell. That is why it is so tragic and unbelievable that an Idaho father “allowed” his 11 year old daughter and 12 year old son to attempt to walk 10 miles in the snow Christmas day after their vehicle got stuck.

Temperatures ranged from -5 to 27°F when the two set out from the disabled vehicle. According to the Associated Press, the children were living with their father Robert Aragon and were being driven to visit their mother JoLeta Jenks. “After the sedan got caught in the snow, authorities allege Aragon let the children out to walk to their mother’s house while he and his cousin Kenneth Quintana, 29, stayed behind to free the car. (They freed the car and went home rather than driving to make sure the kids made it.) Jenks said she eventually called Aragon because she was concerned after no one arrived at her home on Thursday.

Aragon had driven back to his hometown of Jerome after letting the kids out to walk to her house, Jenks said.

“I could not believe it,” she said.”
The 12 year old boy was found 4 ½ miles away, delusional from hypothermia. His sister was not so lucky, she was found dead 2 ½ miles away. Fleming (the local Sheriff) said she was wearing only a brown down coat, black shirt, pink pajama pants and tan snowboots.

He reportedly commented, “I’ve never seen anything like this, it was a 10-mile walk, the way they were dressed, it’s just all mind-boggling.”

Incidents like this one are the answer to the “So what?” question. What’s the “So what?” question? It is the response judges and attorneys have to the finding that a parent is a sociopath or has psychopathic personality traits. So What?

DSM IV Sociopathy (Antisocial Personality Disorder)
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
PCL-R Psychopathy
10. Poor behavioral controls
13. Lack of realistic, long-term goals
15. Irresponsibility
16. Failure to accept responsibility for actions
17. Many short term marital relationships

The table above shows that irresponsibility and recklessness are part of sociopathy as defined by the psychiatry’s DSM and psychopathy as defined by the PCL-R.

Why are sociopaths so consistently reckless and irresponsible? These traits get us to the core of the disorder. At the core of the disorder is poor impulse control. What that means is that if there is a situation where the sociopath has to balance pleasure and risk, the sociopath will always choose pleasure over managing risk. Sociopaths are unable to feel fear or concern for consequences during the time they are focused on immediate pleasure or comfort.

In situations like the father and the kids in the snow, the pull to get the car out and go home is stronger than any concern for the kids. While in pursuit of a goal involving pleasure, thoughts of risk or danger simply are not there. So why would a sociopath drive to go find the kids when he can go home and be warm?

Also sociopaths are unable to love so they lack working empathy. Thoughts and feelings of another’s physical suffering simply do not register on the radar. Out of sight, out of mind defines sociopaths and their relationships. The minute the kids set out, they are gone.

Sociopaths also lack moral reasoning ability. That means they are unable to detect and interpret situations that have moral implications. The moral implications of parental responsibility do not register at the time life and death decisions have to be made.

There is not much information regarding Aragon’s psychopathic personality traits. But he does have two drug convictions and often drug abuse/addiction causes these personality traits. I am sure we will learn more about this tragic story over the next few months.

Sadly, most people do not understand sociopathy and how it is disabling for a parent. To expect a sociopath to execute sound judgment or be a protective parent when forced to choose between his pleasure and his child’s pain is like expecting a mentally retarded person to do calculus.

One of our Lovefraud readers, Rune sent me these comments to this story as posted on AOL.

Nanamummy
05:41 AMJan 02 2009
If this man is such a criminal…why did he have custody of the children? Yes, he made a decision which will haunt him for life…..what’s to be gained by putting him in jail for life? Over zealous authorities and a useless justice system…..this case really depresses me.

JAKVINOCUR
04:39 AMJan 02 2009
so we are now putting fathers in jail for stuff like this. seriously whether they went walking or not they would have still needed to be in the snow. the father was only doing what he thought was best. if he was such a bad father than why does he have custody of them over the mother. yes it was a bad judgement on his part but dont you think he has been punished enough by losing his daughter. we will punish people for [heinous] crimes but we still cannot find osama bin laden or even catch murderers here or sex offenders. wheter what he did or not is irrelvent he lost his daughter let him go find peace in his heart. if god can forgive him why cant we. stupid to let this man go to prison.

Keshet333
11:55 PMJan 02 2009
This is a very unfortunate accident. The fact that the man had custody of the children tells me that he was a good father. In situations such as these, decision making is sometimes not the best. This man will be haunted by this for the rest of his life. They should drop all charges. Isn’t he paying enough for his bad judgment?

Russiawthluv
06:08 PMJan 01 2009
Obviously the man did NOT mean to harm his children. His son and daughter lived with him. He took care of their basic, daily needs. Why would he intentionally bring harm to either child when he has taken care of them so well for their entire lives? There’s no doubt in my mind he made an extremely poor decision. Then again, these two kids were more than likely used to snow, rain and other extreme weather, being that they grew up in that climate. The way he is portrayed by the media is simply unacceptable! Especially with the eye-catching headline..”MAN ALLOWS HIS CHILDREN TO WALK 10 MLES IN DEEP SNOW. 11 YEAR DAUGHTER DEAD FROM HYPOTHERMIA.” For the most part, even if this man wanted a fair trial….how’s he ever going to get one if slanderous & severely misconstrued statements were already pumped out to the masses? That man is in bitter anguish. It’s a “life sentence” if you ask me for this individual to have to spend the remainder of his life knowing his poor decision resulted in the…

The comments also indicate that people don’t know that sociopaths frequently get custody of children. One cannot assume that the parent who has custody is “providing for them.”

It is time for family courts to learn to assess sociopathy and its meaning for parenting. The very least they could do in the case of two sociopathic parents is to educate them about their defects. At least we should tell them, “Look, you are missing all of your decision making social brain, so don’t put yourself in a situation where you will have to choose between your child’s welfare and your own comfort!”

FYI AOL has a poll, I participated and got the following results:

Poll Results
Do you think a murder charge is warranted in this case?
No 47% 101,555
Yes 31% 66,279
I’m not sure 22% 46,384


Comment on this article

213 Comments on "A sociopath will leave you out in the cold every time"

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Thank you, Liane. I look forward to our LF community’s view of this.

Bloody awfull tale, my sister tried unsuccesfully for twenty years to have a child, its a crying shame that people like this have kids at the drop of a hat…those children must have been terrified, they say hyperthermia is a terrible way to die…poor little mites, the father should be locked away and castrated to prevent him fathering any more unfortunate children, If I were the mother I would kill him with my bare hands and gladly pay the price in court.
Know this isnt the place to post this but not sure where is….just to say still around, plenty of lows a few highs…peace reigns here, it is the longest ever without word from the evil one..two weeks three days since he has been gone and a whole ten days not hearing a word….I think my situation is now resolved, there is no way he would let it go this long unless it was over…I will still be sticking around…great site…great posters…great advice

2009 N.Y. resolution

1.Convince at least someone here to go get me BEER and Cigaretts!

I think a parent who sends a 12 year old and an 11 year old child on a 10 mile walk after their car breaks down, even on a day WITHOUT bitter cold and snow, is irresponsible beyond belief.

I had to actually read the article twice before I understood what really happened. The first time I read it quickly I did it with a few assumptions in mind – that they were walking together when the accident happened (no father would do otherwise, right ?…) Than the “bad decision” excuse made perfect sense.

Only when trying to put myself in their own shoes I read it twice and than I got it. First the father let the children go alone 10 miles in the winter. Than on the top of that when they were able to make the car running again, they headed away from the children, towards his home. This shows that at best a part of father’s brain is missing.
Not calling his wife but letting her call him about the fate of the children proves negligence.

I think the problem with the public opinion is that people do not bother to read precisely what has happened (just as I did the first time) while making assumptions of what has happened. In this case my assumption was that they were all walking together, while the accident happened – I bet similar assumptions are the cause of such pool results.
This situation is similar to the one when people leave their children in the car on a hot summer day. letting them die of extreme heat.

Peter

Boy am I tired of Indigo’s absurd comments.

This thread is about a totally avoidable tragedy. It is obvious that this father was lacking something critical in his ability to parent. It is also alarming that the comments posted on AOL indicate that the general public lacks the ability to see that.

What if the Dad let the children walk ONE mile in the snow and freezing temperatures? THAT would be very poor judgement. But 10 miles? This indicates something much bigger is present in this man’s ability to CARE for his children’s welfare.

Very sad story.

P.S. I will try to control my above impulses in the future. Many apologies.

Some of Indigo’s remarks I actually find pretty insightful. But I have to admit, some of them I am clueless what the heck they even mean. 🙂

Peter: You’ve described the “loophole” that lets the S/P get away with so very much. “Surely he didn’t mean to do THAT!” we say, as we apply our own internal logic to explain away the S/P’s behavior.

I know that landscape. Astronauts trained for lunar landings in that area because it is so bleak and empty. No trees, lava rock rubble, no houses. An absolutely unforgiving environment. Clearly a heartless parent. (And conscienceless, perhaps?)

People AUTOMATICALLY believeing that since he had “custody” that he was a fit parent i n unbelieveable to me. How did he obtain custody? Did the mother (maybe also disordered) abandoned the kids and he was “stuck with them?”

Though I grew up and mostly lived in some more moderate climates than the one described, I HAVE BEEN in VERY COLD conditions and NO WAY would I have set those children out side the car even. At least they could have been away from the wind inside the car which even in bitter cold would have been better than them being outside.

I can only imagine the man’s rage when he was having to take the kids to his X’s and got stuck, so he was probably screaming and ranting about how much trouble he had gone to and now look at the situation and it was all the kids’ faults and he wasn’t even going to take them to their mothers after all even when he got the car out. So the kids, wanting to see their mom probably volunteered to walk and he just screamed at them, “Okay, go ahead, I don’t give a rat’s behind about it anyway.” The kids, not realizing the danger struck off and HE DIDN’T CARE ABOUT ANY DANGER IF HE HAD THOUGHT ABOUT IT. The kids were so much trouble anyway.

Maybe that’s not how it actually happened, but I don’t need a crystal ball to think it is something along those lines.

I am with Muldoon on the appropriate punishment! Sheesh!

Too many people have a concensus bias to “get it” about how EVIL and UNCARING some people are.

Just because WE wouldn’t do anything to consciously harm or allow our kids to harm themselves we don’t see that others CAN AND DO do those things.

The one thing my sons know, ,and always knew, was the way to get mom’s dander UP and get into a world of trouble was do disobey safety rules and good sense. No using a chain saw wihtout someone right there with you, no climbing on a high ladder when you are alone. No driving intoxicated, not even a little bit! No inappropriate handling of fire arms or joking around with them. No inappropriate handling of fire works, etc. My sons are both physically fit adult men and neither of them would have attempted that treck unless they were WELL dressed, had appropriate safety equipment with them, GPS or some other indicator of directions, etc. and it would have had to be a BAD emergency to even attempt it.

A sad way for the little girl to die. A sadder thing to have a parent like that. God bless them, and I hope the little boy recovers without significant losses of fingers, toes, or his nose…I am sure he will have some pretty profound psychological trauma though.

muldoon,

You have the power to make this the end. Don’t open the door. Don’t read emails. Don’t respond to texts. Close up all the gaps.

I don’t remember if you were the reader that was feeling threatened by your ex. If you are, don’t let your guard down just because the ex has gone silent.

good luck!

Aloha

DEar Muldoon,

I absolutely agree with Aloha!!! DO NOT LET YOUR GUARD DOWN. Sometimes they will be “nice” for a long time to get you softened up, and not suspecting anything “He’s been so nice to me I can’t believe it” and then, WHAM!!! They blind side you. While they may not have enough control to put aside the impusle to hurt you, they do have PATIENCE to wait, they are like a snake in the grass, they will fool you into thinking you are “safe” then “get ya!”

Glad you are having a bit of peace though, and hope you are working hard on getting your ducks in a row so you can get away from him legally as well as physically. You are in my thoughts and prayers. Please, too, check in at least once a day to say “I’m safe” and let someone else know that you need to be “checked on” daily at least, morning and evening would be better. Tell them if they don’t hear from you, to call the cops! ((((hugs))))

My brother’s ex wife let my nephew and her live in boyfriend’s 16 yr old son leave the house at 11pm, in the middle of a snow storm, to walk to his grandma’s house. It was probably 2 miles away. She even got the flashlight for them. There were no sidewalks and almost 0 visibility. A car came along and made it past my nephew, who was a few feet behind, but hit and killed the other boy.

They left the house because they were tired of hearing my niece and her mother(she had been drinking) argue. The father/live in boyfriend was drunk in the basement.

The guy who hit the boy was an off duty cop. He is being sued by the family. They will most likely get some kind of settlement for their negligence.

My brother had tried to get custody of the kids when they divorced. The judge didn’t want to hear any of it.

In our busy world, we tend to take things at face value. Judges tend to take things at face value: the mother/father must be loving/responsible. This is the child’s parent, therefore they must be loving and responsible. If the other parent objects to the custody arrangements, then it must be a control issue or parental alienation, etc.

Unfortunately judges appear to have absolutely no required training in personality disorders, and the legal system has ZERO checks and balances for pathological liars in the courtroom.

And when children of pathologicals try to take care of themselves as best they can . . . my god, they’re still children, and they don’t have real adults to turn to. I think Ox-D’s description of what might have happened has a certain ring of true possibility.

I am appalled at the AOL responses. My Lord, there are stupid people in this world! For that man to even have let those kids outside the car is insane, let alone let them walk that far improperly dressed for the weather. I was always dressed like the kid on Christmas Story, & I always bundled my kids up like we lived in Alaska.
Has everyone become so brainwashed by all the do-gooders who feel pity for everyone in a tragic situation, except for the true victim taken over our society?
I’d put that b*stard outside in only a pair of shorts, in the worst blizzard of the season, & drop him off in the middle of nowhere. I would tell him to have a nice walk, as I drove away.

sstiles54: Maybe, just maybe the court will incarcerate him in Spring Creek, Alaska … and they have a power outage for a few hours when he arrives!

Peace.

You might appreciate this link. The video shows the landscape. http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2008/12/30/news/top_story/151787.txt

The boy was wearing a black sweatshirt and jeans, according to the news reporter.

Muldoon, I second what Oxy said: “Sometimes they will be “nice” for a long time to get you softened up, and not suspecting anything ….then WHAM!!! They blind side you. ….Also sometimes they will leave you alone for awhile too while they are distracted by something else (like another woman),but they figure you will be there anyhow when they get back round to you, since you always have been before. So, yeah keep your guard up.

On this horrible incident with the children walking in the snow and cold, I still can’t get past the fact that anyone would allow their children that young to walk 10 miles alone regardless of the weather conditions. I mean 10 miles is a looooong freakin way for a child to be walking, period. But if he is a P, I figure it probably went down pretty much like Oxy said. The guy was probably pissed at the children because it was THEIR fault the car got stuck, because if he had not had to take them to their Mother’s this wouldn’t have happened.

But to me what some of those AOL posters are really missing is this: Lets assume this was just a lapse in judgement letting the children start out on a walk in the snow like some of them seem to think. What they are not putting emphasis on (and to me this is the really important part they are missing), is that once he got the car unstuck, knowing the conditions, and knowing how long it would take kids to walk 10 miles, that he didn’t drive to pick them up and take them the rest of the way. Not only did he not do that, but he goes back home and never even phones to check if they made it safely.

I mean, come on, you might have one lapse in judgement (the walk) but when you factor in what happened (or rather didn’t happen once the car was unstuck) it seems to me the AOL posters are not breaking it down and looking at each factor that played out logically. But I bet a good prosecutor will.

What is wrong with people? How could anyone in their right mind think this father’s behaviors were anywhere in the ballpark of normal and caring? One of the reasons child abuse is so rampant that there is often no one for the child to tell who will believe them. When I once posted a thread on my other site about “sociopaths among us”, there were replies such as, “I don’t believe in that”; “there’s no such thing”, etc. Again, what is WRONG with people? How do you break through this little glass bubble so many people live in?

Dear Jen,

I totally agree with you, they (the posters) did not break the entire thing down. Look at the OJ trial (the murder trial) they let him off…duh! I hope the DA in this case throws the book at him and then is good enough to make the jury see the truth! Either that man is so retarded (that is something a person with an IQ of 65-70 would do) or he is a P. I’m putting my money on the P diagnosis. Be interesting to see how it plays out in court. Betya he will go to trial, and not be smart enough to plead out, cause he will think he can bet it.

I’ve been watching that 48 hours Mystery on TV lately, it is pretty good and most of the people they profile seem to be psychopaths. Interesting show. And anyone who doesn’t believe that REAL people are capable of this kind of crap just don’t have their rose colored glasses polished enough. UGH!

I have a saying which I tell my children often and with deep passion.

“Guys always remember that I am expendable and that you are not!’”

In short my life is there for them and it’s my responsibility to care for and love them to the best of my ability. And if even their be that choice I will always be the first one in line to die and would give my life up freely for them but would never expect nor want that from them.

I also have my own personal rule which is that I would never ask anyone to do something I myself wouldn’t be willing to do myself..

Is this man a uncaring father and a possible sociopath?

In my book the answer to both questions is a very strong yes!!

The trouble with the poll is that it left out negligent homicide and manslaughter. If the story is entirely true, without unknown mitigating factors, then he’s committed one of these two crimes. Negligent homicide is when someone does something careless they should have reasonably known would result in the victim’s death. Manslaughter is when the perpetrator intended to injure the victim, and killed the victim instead.

These are serious crimes. There is nothing here to suggest that the father intentionally killed his daughter. Murder is the charge when a person sets out to kill his victim and succeeds.

My guess is he’ll be charged with negligent homicide. If it was illegal in that state for the daughter to be unsupervised at the age of 10, they might be able to stretch the charges to criminally negligent homicide. This is the usual charge when the perpetrator was doing something both illegal and negligent that resulted in the death of the victim.

I feel very, very sorry for the kids. One wonders if they knew the walk to Mom’s house was a probably death sentence. One also wonder’s if Kenneth Quintana realized how dangerous it was. It is entirely probable that both men were too ignorant to know better. We may eventually learn that Robert Aragon and Kenneth Quintana were dumber than stumps.

Thanks Rune for the link of this tragedy concerning these two young (children) lambs. I watch the footage while cussing thinking!

OMG! THERE AREN’T EVEN TRESS TO BLOCK SOME OF THE WIND! HOW IN GOD’S NAME CAN THIS FATHER BE SO STUPID!!!!

I know that I myself will get upset with my two boys when they only want to wear a hooded sweater for a coat to walk 2 city blocks to the local library during the winter months and this fool let them walk 10 mile in the open field with no protection from the winds and cold??? The boy who suffered from hypothermia was wearing a “black sweater and blue jeans“. Clothes that both my boys love (and no doubt most teenagers) to wear again even during these winter months.

I remember just a few days ago (the day after Christmas) telling my youngest son to stand against the building for protection from the cold winds!!!! I don’t own a car in Chicago so we take public transportation whenever we go anywhere. I also remember that day when my youngest slipped on the ice (twice) and ask if he was okay! Telling him how he has to be careful when walking on the ice. How we help each by holding on to each other when crossing patches of frozen ice on the sidewalk. Him telling (yes I make sure he had the proper clothes on, that was part of the deal if he wanted to go and spend his Christmas money on video games while I had to visit one of my client that day after Christmas) me how cold him was and how I told me we would be home soon. Again I ask everyone what in God’s name what this brainless fool of a father thinking???? Or is it just that! He wasn’t thinking?

OMG there are some news reports that are very hard to watch!!! This is one of them!! But yes it does put things into perspective when viewing the terrain and what these two lambs had to travel thru. But still how this tragedies should have never happen if only the father was a responsible person!

James and Elizabeth: What if it comes out in court that the father hated the mother and therefore, was always making it as difficult as possible for the children when it came to seeing her!

This is probably going to be (sadly) a perfect example how everyone, no matter who we are, have to get to that place of peace and serenity in our hearts with regards to our EXs no matter what they did or who they are.

Peace.

It wouldn’t surprise me if the father knew the kids wouldn’t make it. Maybe they were inconvenient for him, and he was looking for a way to get rid of them. He may have even rigged the car to break down so he could engineer the whole thing. I know this is wild conjecture, but after all, this is the way a sociopath thinks! (Good God, I’m starting to think like a sociopath).

Wini, this may be a perfect example of how we should never get to a place of peace and serenity when it comes to “entrusting” our children to the S/P!

Yes, with normal people, we need to “get over it.” When we’re dealing with the S/P, that’s how they get away with it. That may be why this guy had the kids and she didn’t — she tried to make peace.

This is the horror, the double- triple- quadruple-bind that we find ourselves in. When do we fight? When do we walk away?

James, you got it! I used to drive past that very turnoff, thinking how desolate the landscape was. Beautiful, but no room for mistakes by the unprepared. The ground has holes that drop away, This is lava rock, with caves underneath. No, the trees don’t grow there.

I think some elements of psychopathy have crept into our society, like the idea that we should each be able to take care of ourselves. (Notice how that idea lets the S/P off the hook, because we “should have taken better care of ourselves!) Actually, we as humans thrive in community, and our immune systems become compromised and we tend to become more depressed as we feel isolated. The notion that these kids should have been able to “take care of themselves” is part of that dangerous brainwashing.

Children trust their parents to watch over their welfare. They assume the loving care of their parents. What else are they supposed to do? And what if they have an uncaring, unfeeling, irresponsible, conscienceless, remorseless parent? Tragedy is an altogether too-likely outcome.

Wini,
“What if …”

We just don’t know, and maybe we never will. Sadly, stupid kills at least as many people as sociopathy.

I’ll give you another “What if…”. What if the mother is no more capable or willing to parent than the father? Then who raises the son? The “What ifs… can string along forever.”

We don’t know. We’re seeing this story through the lens of people who’ve tangled with cluster Bs and been badly burned.

In the long run, our experiences should improve our judgment, rather than merely alter it. N/P/S is bad, but there are other relationship problems that also hold the potential for tragedy.

Elizabeth & Rune: We don’t know who had what personality in the relationship. We only know the couple broke up and had children. I’m not suggesting not to be the responsible parent and keep an eye on the former spouse that is an anti-social, I was just saying if it was the ex wife that was anti-social and the father is the “normal” ex spouse, then anger in his heart for his Ex wife could have shifted his focus making it difficult for his children to visit their mother, the woman he hates was the focus instead of the children’s safety. If it’s the father who is the anti-social personality, the scenario is more devastating because it was inevitable that these children hadn’t a chance to survive the likes of an anti-social.

Sorry if I shook you up in my original writing, it wasn’t my intention.

It’s obvious there are sociopathic ingredients to this tragic happening.
My core question would be, “Do we treat them as criminals, or do we treat them as “ill”…?”

Hey Trla – BOTH. We treat them as both ill and criminal. They would love it (pity play manipulation) if we treated them as poor, sick, souls, after they got cornered, finally, and had to face the music. And they are sick, absolutely. But they need very firm consequences, and those that would specifically help to prevent them from committing the same, or similar crimes. That may have to be locking them up and throwing away the key.

I am encouraged that research is making new discoveries about their brain functioning – hopefully someday, perhaps even in the next decade or two, they will find a way to treat or reprogram these guys. I know its not that simple, but that would be a great start.

Trla,
“It’s obvious there are sociopathic ingredients to this tragic happening.
My core question would be, “Do we treat them as criminals, or do we treat them as “ill—?”

My vote is that we treat them as criminals. Their personality types are the reason the pillory, stocks and public hangings were invented. Our personality types are the reason they were done away with. We were WRONG!!! The cluster Bs need punishment to be public and cruel. It’s the only hope of curbing their behavior, due to their lack of internal controls. It is a kindness to these people to be extremely clear about the consequences of bad behavior. They need the threat of serious punishment in order to accept limits. Cluster Bs can live reasonably well if they know someone is always standing by, ready to kick their backsides up between their ears if they misbehave. They’re rudderless without the threat of punishment.

Elizabeth,

My dear I agree AND disagree with your statement “they’re fudderless without the threat of punishment.”

A FEW of them will respond to punishment constraints, but the psychopaths tend to not even be afraid of anything. Even jail or the death penalty.

I have worked with these cluster Bs in both inpatient and outpatient settings.My son C’s step daughter was histrionic if ever there was one. EVen in an inpatient setting where you have essentially “total” control over these people with instant sanctions for unacceptable behavior, they are canny in seeking ways around your “rules.” In the “free world” where the punishments are not so “sure” and “swift” the threat is not enough to contain them from most “bad” behavior I think.

I vote for treating them as criminals too, although I have wondered if prison is the right answer in one or two prominent cases in which expert witnesses diagnosed severe mental illness. But for most of them…… I think criminal penalties are in order.

When talking about personalities, I have wondered where the Myers-Briggs typology fits into all this or if it does. Are certain personality types more inclined to become N/S/P, and are certain personality types more inclined to become their victims.

Are sensitive introverts better targets for and N/S/Ps than assertive extroverts?

Does ones personality type tend to support a mind-set that might be more inclined to explain away the red flags , or not really grasp what they mean.

I read an article this morning that someone from the SEC clearly warned about Madoff ten years ago and the red flags have been flapping in the wind since then only to be ignored by the world’s most sophisticated financial wizards.

Then I read another article about investors taking responsibility for their losses and for not exercising due diligence! So the blame/shame game once again confuses the issue and weighs heavily on those who were duped and suffered heavy financial losses.

It’s interesting to note the comments here.

My first thought, as a non-lawyer, was “criminal negligence” at the very least.

Then again, perhaps the father was trying to adhere to a time-specific parenting plan arrangement. For example, ours is 9am-6pm for holidays such as Christmas, parent birthdays, etc.).

Too bad for both parents that:

1. the father even went out in the weather at that time. [It’s my feeling he could have called the mom and rescheduled due to the treacherous driving conditions and snow drifts, or cancelled altogether, and traded a different holiday in the future.]

2. the mother would’ve insisted upon getting her visitation [per the parenting plan – which, these days, is like “Moses and the tablets carved in stone,” as far as the COURTS are concerned], even when the consequences were so potentially tragic.

And what about not using the cell phones?

And what about the kids being instructed by the father to “walk on”?

And what about the father and friend getting the car UNstuck and then NOT checking the rest of the entire route that the kids took?

And what about the father NOT calling local law enforcement and explaning the situation AFTER he got the car unstuck and got home (or where EVER) he went?

This situation is so fraught with stupidity – as I see it, the charge of second degree murder is merely the prosecutions’ “opening gambit” and it leaves room for “plea bargaining” down to a charge of criminal negligence – at which time the father will think he’s pretty damn LUCKY…even if it means a minimum sentence OR probation.

It just goes to prove my longstanding maxim: “STUPID PEOPLE SHOULDN’T BREED!”

I would vote for treating them as criminals. They hide behind their ego, & it seems all important for them to be always seen as the good guy. They are no different than sexual offenders, they should have to register as a spath where ever they live, just like SO’s do. I try not to sound too bitter, or dwell on what was done to us, yet sometimes I can’t even imagine a punishment severe enough that fits their crimes. I ‘m sure we have have run scenarioes in our heads about what we’d like to see done to them. It would be like hitting a boulder with a ball bat, waiting for the boulder to say, “ouch, that hurts”. I know their brains are wired up (f**ked up) differently than normal people, that doesn’t excuse the hurt they inflict. Even primal animals don’t hurt just for the sake of hurting. They need to eat, or they are acting in self preservation mode.

sstiles54
That is how they survive . Prime evil ! I wAs thinking about a movie
Where The psyc student was experimenting with regression back to primal instinc of basic survival Remember the Tank Aquatic suspencion 100pts for the name of this movie Hahaaha

I wonder sometimes if my ex S could help himself in his behaviors. I am not excusing him, and never going back to him…but the things he did really hurt HIM, perhaps even the most in the end. If not themost, they really did hurt him. I had my heart and soul tromped all over – but I get to walk away from the trainwreck and heal. He has to live the trainwreck. He really did hurt himself in what he did to me – and openly admits that. I think he can’t help himself. I don’t know if any consequences would work – except death. Or maybe as someone else said “public and severe.” I still don’t think it would work. My ex S made the same mistake over and over and over with different women – actually lost a lot of money in the process, and a lot of good women. There are plenty of other good women out there – no doubt, and he will find them.

Their brains really aren’t different and dysfunctional. If we could find a way to identify them and treat them, early on, we might spare the world an enormous amount of pain. I think we need to focus on warning the public about them (though I suspect they will never believe us until they get burned), and focus on fixing these guys. Cuz they certainly aren’t going to stop reproducing. In fact, considering their promiscuity and cavalier attitude toward impregnating multiple women – they are likely increasing in droves

ARGH! I meant their brains ARE different and dysfunctional.

Maybe that was a freudian slip, or a message from the universe

Punishment? Elizabeth, Tria, Ox-D, you might look at the December 2007 Scientific American Mind.

In the article, the authors quote from anthropologist Jane M. Murphy’s 1976 study of an isolated group of Yupik-speaking Inuits who lived near the Bering Strait. They had a word (kunlangeta) for “a man who . . . repeatedly lies and cheats and steals things and . . . takes sexual advantage of many women–someone who does not pay attention to reprimands and who is always being brought to the elders for punishment.” The article continues to note that when Murphy asked what the group would do with such a person, an Inuit answered, “Somebody would have pushed him off the ice when nobody else was looking.”

This is not new. And it is not specific to our society.

I agree that in more “primitive” societies, such a solution might work. Unfortunately in ours it is called “murder.” I don’t know if it was you or someone else who mentioned this study before but it IS an interesting study.

In the Law of Moses in the Old Testament, a “child” who was uncontrollable was put to death if his parents brought him to the elders.

I spent some time in Mexico with the Lochindoni (spelling?) Indians and there was an anthropologist there who was studying them and had been living with them for quite some time. He was convinced that they were a “gentle” people until one night the man in whose hut he was staying came home and savagely beat his entire family nearly to death. The anthropologist sat in horror. The next day when we were leaving, he asked if he could fly out with us to get away, because the man who had beaten his family acted as if “nothing happened” but then said to the anthropologist “You know, I’d like to kill you but if I did the police would come and I would have to move my hut and it would be too much trouble.”

As we were flying out, he was furiously RE-writing his notes. I wondered many years later if this Indian was a “psychopath” of if this periodic violence was “normal” in that culture. I never followed up on any of it though.

In a wolf pack if there is a pup who is “uncontrollable” and will not take instructions from the pack leaders (his parents) he will be killed. In my cow herd there was a “P” cow that I had who had a high status (there is a strict pecking order in a herd) and she ABUSED her status by just randomly hurting other cows or their calves, and eventually 3 cows teamed up on her and beat her nearly to death, pushing her to the BOTTOM of the pecking order. They literally shunned her from then on. She deserved it for her bad behavior. I have never actually observed that in a cow herd before or since, but it makes sense to me because if the “pecking order” is observed properly there is no violence except playing in calves and no one gets hurt or constantly abused, even if they are on the “low” end of the pecking order.

Occasionally, wolf packs will have a “Zeta” dog which is actively abused (and eventually starves to death or is killed) by the entire pack, who seem to take pleasure in being “mean” to this animal. Depriving it of food etc even if there is plenty. I’ve seen films of this, though never actually observed it in the wild or even tame animals.

Oc-D: Interesting observations. My point about the Inuit was that they understood the P to the extent that they even had a word for that type. I don’t recommend their solution, but I know there are times when we are tempted to consider outrageous solutions to their outrageous behavior.

Oxy and Rune: I live in New England … we just go ice fishing in the winter months … cut a hole in the ice … have them bend over to grab a fish … oopppss!

Personally, Rune, I think their “solution” MAKES PERFECT SENSE in a small subsistence situation that might mean “life or death” to the ENTIRE group if there is a human predator/trouble maker in the group. In a group that is small enough that “everyone knows everyone else” I imagine it would almost be a consensus on “handling the situation.” Might also tend to get the “bad genes” out of the group as well. Group cooperation in situations where everyone’s life depends on ALL the group cooperating and no one person “rocking the boat” it is just a survival tactic for the group.

I imagine if we were in a “life boat” situation with limited water, food, and resources, and there was a Psychopath aboard who endangered us all, he would be pitched over board by several of the party, if that is what was obviously the only way any of the group would survive.

What a depressing story! Not entirely dissimilar to the nightmare my stepchildren endure. Their mother can’t hold a job, has excuses for everything, goes through men like toilet paper, has molested her son in the past, gave all three of them up for 2 months, without asking for them back, so she could live the single life until we took her to court for them. Then she fought tooth and nail for them. Now that she has joint control over them, she doesn’t know what to do with them. She gives them to her mother and lets her 6 year old son ride the bus to our house on her weeks, knowing I’m gone picking up my kids from school. Then, she’s late and lets him run around the neighborhood alone until she shows up. It’s just a matter of time, folks. I know it. It’s just a matter of time before she’s obsessing about something so much that her kids get hurt, lost, stolen, etc.

OxD
In that tribe The P was a defect in Brain Chemistry or nature ! Genetic vs Learned behavior , I would say that this may help devide the differences?

Now If it’s 4% of Pop. Better start Building now because that’s a lot of people to House and manage ! Detainies ! Obama is going to Love this Stimulous Building plan :)~

I think their solution makes sense, too. There really isn’t any other solution, at present, if we are unable to “fix” them and they do not respond to punishment or consequences, and do not learn from past mistakes. We can’t do that, however. We are bound by laws and by our own morals and kind natures. Apparently (I’ve never tried, of course), its actually quite hard for “normal” people to take the life of another. The military needs to train it’s soldiers by conditioning them – first through video games, and then targets – to shoot at people. Apparently the rates of “firing” in WW2 were poor. They were much better in Vietnam because soliders were trained, in simulation, (target practice with human shaped targets) repeatedly, and hence conditioned.

It’s not our nature to kill. In the situation Oxdrover described, on the lifeboat, we could.

I think we need to continue to do the scientific research on the brain to figure out what is wrong, and then correct it. Someday everybody (or maybe those at risk – as determined by their family trees), could have their brain scanned, in childhood, for the dysfuntion of the sociopath (i.e. irregularities in the frontal lobe, amygdala, and other parts shown to be deficient in the sociopath), and then corrected.

We’ve learned how to vaccinate, and treat other diseases and disorders. My hope is that someday we can correct this problem.

In the past people didn’t think we could address psychosis – like in Schizophrenia – and thought those people afflicted were “evil” or “overtaken by the devil.” Although we can’t cure schizophrenia, with advances in recent decades we have learned that we can manage it, with medication. Someday we may be able to do something with Sociopaths. Of course it couldn’t be medication – because they wouldn’t take it. But something……

Oxy: Instead of pitching the psycho overboard he can become Soylent Green. (LOL)

Healing Heart: Well, I think (yes, I do think some times) that we should teach GREED in the school systems and show people how they can get wrapped up in their selfish ways and be so clouded and consumed with GREED they don’t realize the extent of it’s destruction … not only to themselves but others.

Sounds like a solid plan to me.

That was my Idea!

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