A woman who married and had children with two different sociopathic men wrote us this week. Her story and questions are timely since they allow me to mention another upcoming book, the conference Donna and I attended last weekend and to discuss vindictiveness.
It seems most women who have children with sociopaths end up with the sociopaths walking out on their children as well as the women, leaving the survivors to mop up and struggle to understand what happened on their own. From what I understand of sociopaths, the prevalent attitude they seem to behave as if they “don’t care” about anything except doing what benefits them”¦ (she told her story of marriage, children, custody battles and vindictive sociopaths)”¦ So, is vindictiveness a trait typically found in sociopaths or are these guys merely trying to maintain or regain their power and it just happens to look like vindictiveness on the surface? These guys have definitely expressed some serious rage, especially after losing as spectacularly as they did when they tried to take custody and prevent me from moving. Is anger an emotion sociopaths feel when they don’t get their own way? Do they ever “get over” it?
Many women tend to repeatedly pick sociopaths as partners
There are many women who have relationships with more than one sociopathic man. Sometimes children result from one or all of the relationships, since sociopaths like to father a lot of children. (My son’s father has 7 children I know about.) The resultant children carry the sociopath’s genes and are exposed to the sociopath’s fathering behavior.
Sociopathic/psychopathic men are at least 4 times more common than sociopathic women. The interpersonal love-relationship patterns are the means by which sociopaths replicate themselves and perpetuate sociopathy within our society. It is very important, then, to understand women who love sociopathic men. Is there anything different about them? Are they drawn to sociopaths because of prior abuse? Is it simply that sociopaths con them and they are especially gullible? These are tough questions for those of us who have had relationships with sociopathic men, but we have to ask them. The stakes are too high for everyone for us to avoid asking and answering these questions. Sandra L. Brown, M.A., and I recently conducted a survey/study that has addressed these questions and more. Stay tuned because a book with our initial findings is nearly complete. The results are enlightening and freeing.
Batterers often win custody of children
Last weekend Donna and I attended a conference, the Battered Women’s Custody Conference. This conference is held every year and so plan on attending next year if you missed it. The conference addresses one end of the spectrum of sociopaths—sociopathic men who are physically violent. It is incredible the courts often give children over to these sociopaths! Batterers are a little different from the sociopaths most of us know. These sociopaths have been referred to as secondary psychopaths, as opposed to the primary psychopaths we are most familiar with.
Primary verses secondary psychopathy
Secondary psychopaths are more insecure (than are primary psychopaths) about the status and power they so desire. Whereas primary psychopaths are grandiose and feel confident in their supremacy, secondary psychopaths are always on the lookout for threats to their status. They are also prepared to meet status threats with physical violence. Secondary psychopaths have more problems with impulse control than primary psychopaths. They also tend to be more emotional, displaying more anger. I think the average perpetrator of domestic violence fits the profile of a secondary psychopath very well.
There are other minor differences between secondary and primary psychopaths, but the similarities between them are more noteworthy than the differences. Both primary and secondary psychopaths are unable to love, have poor impulse control and impaired moral reasoning. Genetics play a substantial role in the development of both, and it is not true that one is environmental and the other genetic, as is commonly believed.
Sociopathic fathers
The parenting behavior of sociopaths has not been thoroughly studied. In my opinion the reason for this is the belief held by many researchers and clinicians that sociopaths abandon their young. This belief is related to another belief—that sociopaths are incapable of attachment. These two fallacies have stood in the way of efforts to eliminate this disorder and the suffering of victims. First of all, to those who hold on to the second misconception, If sociopaths are incapable of attachment, why do they engage in stalking? Scientists measure attachment as the tendency to seek proximity to a specific special other. Is not stalking the ultimate manifestation of attachment behavior? Sociopaths often verbally report they love others. Let’s take this to be a reflection of a longing for specific people, then we can start to understand sociopaths.
The feeling of longing
The feeling of longing sociopaths have is related to the fact that certain people in their lives have previously been a source of pleasure. We tend to get attached to things and people that have brought us pleasure in the past. There are three social pleasures: affection, dominance and sex, and possibly a separate fourth, parenting. Although sociopaths may experience a modicum of affection, the primary pleasure they derive from relationships is associated with power as opposed to love. When a sociopath says, “I love you,” he means he greatly enjoys the pleasure of possessing you and having power over you. SO how dare you question his love!
Children are also possessions sociopaths enjoy having dominion over. Part of the enjoyment of parenting they have is the prospect of turning, particularly sons, into miniature versions of themselves. For this reason, any money that the court orders your sociopath to give his children is not worth the trade off. If your sociopath will give up his possessions for a price, pay him off and be done with him. If the sociopath succeeds at his goal of turning his sons into miniature versions of himself, you will live your entire life surrounded by sociopaths, you will never escape and have peace/love.
Vindictiveness
Sociopaths are by nature extremely vindictive! Vindictiveness comes from the power/dominance system in our brains. Scientific studies show that sociopathic people derive great pleasure from revenge. Revenge is a very primitive emotion that evolved to ensure enforcement of social reciprocity. It evolved before the capacity for love. We know this because of studies of chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are very vindictive and vengeful when a comrade fails to reciprocate, and their capacity for love has not evolved much. It is only the threat of revenge that induces chimpanzees to cooperate with each other, because they do not have love bonds that motivate cooperation. When a chimpanzee shares his food, he does not likely get a warm fuzzy feeling inside, instead he knows that others will later do the same for him. If others fail to reciprocate, revenge is always taken.
Thankfully most humans receive a double reward when they cooperate with each other and a double punishment when they fail to cooperate. The double reward is the inherent pleasure in knowing we did a good for someone else, and the thought that good might someday be reciprocated. The double punishment is the guilt over harming someone and the fear that the harm will be reciprocated. Please hear me, sociopaths are like chimpanzees. They do not feel good when they do good for someone, they thus expect immediate reciprocity. They do not feel bad when they hurt someone, but they are smart enough to know revenge might follow. This is why prison is an occupational hazard for them. They also do not comprehend the guilt other people feel. This is why it is important to them to mete out huge punishments toward everyone who has offended them.
When you have to deal with sociopaths, be ever mindful that these individuals are devoid of pleasure from goodness and devoid of guilt over evil. Although they take advantage of other’s emotions, they have it in their minds that the rest of the human race is like them. They therefore feel it is necessary to get revenge in order to reduce the likelihood of future attacks on their status, power and possessions.
Sister,
There is a big component of genetics in psychopathy, and not even a majority of abused children become psychopaths, only a few, so it isn’t just punishing kids that creates psychopaths, or even abusing children that creates psychopaths. In fact, I think being abused creates more victims than abusers.
“Correction” does not have to be “punishment.” Many times it IS punishment, though.
Last night, I picked up a book called “The 48 Laws of Power”. by Robert Greene.
This book was VERY VERY insightful, and it’s all about how to manipulate and control people. I swear that my sociopath must have followed it to a “T”. They have principals, and then they give examples. Here are some of the principals:
“Always say less than is necessary”.
“Play to people’s fantasies”
“Conceal your intentions”
There was one piece that really opened my eyes last night, it was called “Disarm and Infuriate with the Mirror Effect”.
I will tell you why this caught my attention.
The book says “The mirror reflects reality, but it is also the perfect tool for deception. When you mirror your enemies, doing exactly as they do, they can not figure out your strategy. The mirror effect mocks and humiliates them, making them overreact. By holding up a mirror to their psyches, you seduce them with the illusion that you share their values”.
I realized that my sociopath simply listened to me, and he reflected back what I wanted to hear. He simply became the guy of my dreams. He was a mirror. He was what I wanted him to be. He mirrored my interests and values.
So, last night, I went to a quiet room, and I decided to put my head in my sociopath’s place. In other words, I decided to act like my sociopath, so I could mirror his words and behavior back to him. I had to write down his words, and write down his actions, and then visualize myself saying and doing what my sociopath has done.
It was harder than you might think.
I have a totally different perspective now. Everything changed last night because of this. I suddenly feel empowered. It all feels so ridiculous.
That last bit about chimpanzees and vindictiveness sounds like my parents. They expect co-operation but woe betide you if you refuse – you’re a social pariah! It’s why I grew up determined never to repsond to guilt trips. I only do things for others when I genuinely want to do them or if it’s a life/death situation that I do something. I refuse to be guilted into doing something for others or only doing things for people secretly expecting (not hoping) that I am going to get back. It is this sense of entitlement that is at the heart of sociopathy – it’s the narcissistic side. I believe my parents are more on the narcissistic side and are not inherently wicked, just a little emotionally/behaviourally stunted. My sibling is exhibiting the same behaviour now. It’s basically ‘What do you mean no? Well if you don’t do X for, me, don’t be expecting me to do that thing for you I agreed to do before’ As if that’s the end of my world as I know it? I’ll just get someone elses help lol! For the narcissistically and sociopathically entitled no isn;t an option. It’s even filtered to my nephew. I asked him for some of his sweets the other day. He said no. Ok I said, disappointed but let him know it was ok to say no to me. My mother immediately jumped in and began guilt tripping the child ‘Oh go on, don’t be mean…etc etc’ Luckily I was there to redress the balance and reiterate that it was perfectly ok for my five year old nephew to refuse a request – he was under no obligation to give me anything and besides I’d far rather receive something from him because he genuinely wanted to give it, not because he was guilt tripped into it.
Needless to say I often get told to shut up in my family. The truth hurts, elephant in the room and all that……. =)
Loralei, that is a great book, sounds like it is written for the psychopath! The old “salesman’s” course of “How to Win Friends and Influence People” which told people how to win friends and influence them was sort of the same way actually. A friend of mine got thrown out of a college class for saying “this book is trying to show me how to manipulate people and get them to buy something they neither want nor need.” LOL Which was true! Yet that book and program was “top of the line” for decades in the US.
Genevieve, Yep, 100% agree.
One Step we posted over one another! I’m all good actually – it is vindicating to be putting some of these stories to bed.
I banged into his friend again the other day and gave him a message to pass on – that if he doesn’t stop lying about me it’s going to end up in court. Whilst that won’t stop him, the threat of legal proceedings will make his friends think differently about what he says. You don’t threaten court action if you’re in the wrong.
I felt so much better after saying it. Like I had taken the power back in my own hands after almost a year of his lies circulating about me. I’ve had to wait a long time and it’s been an extremely unjust situation, but now it’s starting to come to balance.
Hopeful you’re dead right on the common property – if you can imagine the stalling games they play in regular life, imagine how bad it is when you’re trying to legally split property and they play every game in the book to stop the process. I ended up with a huge lawyer bill because of his games. He didn’t want me but he didn’t want me to divorce him either – messed up situation!
Well my ex-spath has been arrested for domestic violence many times, so I believe I can call him vindictive bc it happened after someone hurt his feelings or disreguarded his orders. On the other hand, this coward would never retaliate if he thought the other person was physically stronger or had one up on him. Needless to say, I have to threaten him with court, police officers, or big cousins in order to get his attention and slow down his disrespect or harrasment. Right now we r waiting to go to court for chld supp and he is so enraged by the thought of having to pay, but he will get thru it jus like the 2 other supp orders he is paying. My nxt step is a restraining order and a concealed weapons permit, only for protection of course. And I thank God for this website that gives great insight and shows possible situations one could find themselves in, I mean some of these stories are so close to home it scares me into action in order to protect my children. This information is valuable and so are our families lives Protect urself ladies, keep them out of ur homes where they feel comfortable to abuse you, remove them from your lease!. I pray for strength for everyone in these situations, know there is a God to call on so that we can come out of these situations better than when we started, surrounded by good, the ultimate revenge!
Dear Shojo,
I suggest IF YOU ARE ALREADY WELL TRAINED IN FIRE ARMS, Don’t wait on the concealed permit….also keep in mind in MOST states (check yours) there is a thing called a “castle law” and you are allowed to protect your life in your home and some states include your car in your “castle” but you are not allowed to protect PROPERTY, just life OR limb.
If you are not already well trained in fire arms, get some practice and make up your mind NOW well before you have to pull or not pull that trigger what you are capable of doing. I grew up with fire arms so I have NO doubt what I would do, my decision TO PROTECT MYSELF was made a long time ago, and the decision is two to the body and then one to the head. NO survivors.
Don’t wait on the restraining order either is my suggestion, go ahead and get it. That will give you protecting yourself more UMPH if push ever comes to shove and you have to shoot him.
If you have children, get supervised visitation if he gets it at all, and if you can legally do it, (some states won’t allow it) BUY your children by letting him sign away his legal parental rights, in exchange for NO child support. Some states won’t do this unless there is another “parent” to step up and assume them, as the CHILD has “rights” to support. A friend of mine “bought” her children like this and it was a GREAT DEAL!!!! Especially since she would never have been able to collect much if any of the support anyway. LOL
Keep us posted on how it comes out! (((hugs))) and God bless!!!
Hopeful–I was reading these posts today for the first time and you posted on Monday Aug 23 I think…about if your x is indeed spath because of little or no violence but great emotional abuse.
My x spath was not violent to me (except one incident where he raped me and he did admit to doing that in therapy). He did hit his first wife, she told me that. And of course he spun that story to say he wanted to go to therapy but she wouldn’t go at all and what a creep she was and that she accused him of hitting her at a Jackson Browne concert etc etc. When I met with her she said SHE was going to therapy and begged him to come and he wouldn’t attend…and that he did hit her in an elevator the day they got married and then again at the concert.
He would rage at me and back me into a wall while i was holding our little daughter and even when I said what the therapist told us to do which was to walk away. he wouldn’t back down, even as our D was screaming and spitting at him. She hated him I think. That rage started happening the first year of marriage…chasing me around the house for spending 100$, telling me I was just a “sick alcoholic” after three years in recovery. projection. that was the only “physical” he did. Well, not to say “only”.
His claim to fame was the extreme emotional abuse and gaslighting skills. I was a working nurse anesthetist, making good money, had friends and a life when I met him. Soon after our marriage I began to lose myself. I gained weight, lost self esteem, and as another woman wrote here ended up a shell of who I was having him suck the life out of me. The emotional abuse was so hard to deal with. How do you prove that one? When I would tell stories of things he’d say no one would get it. It even sounded petty to me when I said it. How to explaint he insidious put downs, the seeming “care” he would have about me and my recovery when what he was really doing was setting me up to look crazy and sick and that he was a saint for putting up with me or staying with me. What a savior. (He even told me twice that what he needed in the marriage was to be Warrior, King, Rescuer and one other pathetic thing…he used Christianity as an umbrella to cover himself and his behavior. He was a Christian so anything he did was ok)
He told everyone about my recovery. He even told a woman he was having an emotional affair (that led to a physical one) about my recovery when he first met her and that gave her the idea that there was a clink in the armour of our marriage. The way he presented me and my recovery to everyone was disguised as being proud of me but it put me down and lifted him up. Why would this good looking physician take care of this poor drug addict addicted to vicodin? You could even see him puff out his chest as he spoke and walk his arrogant walk.
I stopped working to take care of my D after we adopted her. It was hard for me to transition to not working even though I felt appreciative that I could stay home wtih her and nurture her which she really needed. But he wouldn’t ever give me credit for anything. I take pride in all the things I do and being a stay at home mom meant having a really cool house, having a daughter well taken care of etc etc and helpin in the community at our church when I could. I did AA meetings at the women’s jail….etc. he would insidiously put me down. He had to be center of attention. Whenever i got the attention all of a sudden he was doing the things I did…working with youth group…he started working with them. etc. he played piano but i studied piano for 18 years. He NEVER told anyone I played! He put on concerts playing the same 5 pieces he knew. He couldn’t even read music! And everyone thought he was a genius. It’s sickening to think about. He would carry our daughter like he was offering a sacrifice…so hard to explain but it was weird. He would walk in front of me and leave me in the dust. He never told me I looked nice and once on a date night after the abuse was getting to me I decided to wear sweats (nice sweats however!) out to a movie. (small town, not a big deal but who cares anyway) and he said “What, you can’t dress up for me?” Are you kidding. Whenever I did dress up, put on the make up, push up bra (LOL) he never said anything and I could even tell that he did that on purpose. I’d compliment him, say Hey nice butt! and he’d say yeah, thanks and walk off. Just a jerk.
There is more…much more..but the emotional abuse is such a gaslight…we think we are crazy for thinking these things. We ask “Did that really happen or did I imagine it?” and they will tell us we are imaging things or they didn’t say things they said. I always called it crazy making.
Yes, I believe he is a sociopath. he is vindictive. His only concern is possessions, power, status. I had a Focus on the Family therapist talkl to me on the phone about a year before I left him when things were just getting out of hand. He listened to my story for an hour and I told him my part, too like my treatment etc and the counselor, a man, said to me (and right on now that I realize more) “You can stay another five years with this guy and be in much worse shape with your daughter older and understanding more or you can get out now and start your life again. You and your daughter are not his ‘bottom’. His reputation and money is what will be his bottom. So stop torturing yourself and get out now”. that was a strong statement from a Christian counselor but this counselor got it. he knew he was a sociopath but didn’t say it to me. I was trying so hard to save the marriage and when I heard my xspath say in therapy “I have no compassion or empathy for women close to me” I finally stopped the insanity.
Little did I know that the hell had not even begun yet. That’s the killer. That it could and did get worse. I thought I was depressed and sad and lonely then! Wow, after I left him I had hell to pay. No one leaves him and now two of us had.
I think the violent ones, the serial killers on just the ones on that extreme end of this spectrum and that most are in that middle area where it’s hard to identify if they are spath, N or what. Doesn’t matter if N or spath as someone else said, they are both horrid to be with!
i have no proof of any of the serious mindgames by the ex-S. I am still once in a while wishing that his beautifully constructed life would come crashing down if he was exposed. but slowly i am realizing that day might never come. he will live out his tenured, home owner, married life happily ever after; posing to be an upstanding citizen.
every once in a while i find little bits and pieces that make me happy. i know, i know, it’s still considered being in contact, but i don’t do it often. i recently came across a bunch of reviews of him as a teacher. it was interesting to see how polarized his reviews were. while i was living with him, he had a number of students that he had conflicts with (so serious that he had to stand infront of a review board) and he always blamed the students. all of them were young women his “type” who were just too outspoken. hmmm…interesting. also, everyone who was not his enemy just absolutely ADORE him. here are some of the reviews:
“Extremely condescending. He consistently speaks of himself and his ‘impressive’ past as often as he possibly can. Has a completely one dimensional mind and rolls his eyes at anything/anyone out of the ordinary.”
“poster of 12/10 cannot be more wrong. ex-….instructor is of the highest caliber. extremely knowledgable, very helpful, approachable, and down to earth. hands down greatest instructor i’ve had the pleasure of working with.”
“There wasn’t any question he didn’t know the answer to or that he didn’t have the patience to explain until someone understood. quirky but fantastic teacher.”
“i’ve never had a teacher who made me love something i thought i would hate before.”
“this guy is mental, worst experience i have ever had, if it wasn’t for my love of printing i would have dropped, grades are based on how much he likes you, 12/10 is so right.drop this class if you have any conflicts with him or you will regret it when grades come out<my conflict was calling him out about favoritism. btw total closet case.good luck"
"I have no Idea who the 2 negative posters are dealing with, but I could not disagree more. Prior to taking this class I had no Idea what printmaking was about, and now I am extremely excited about it. As far as Rick not liking anyone out of the ordinary, I think this statement is a little nutzo. Rick is a little crazy himself. And not judging you."
"…. taught me everything there is to know and all that is not worth knowing."
"
ha-ha, wonder if this last comment was written by S himself
I read somewhere that one warning sign of a sociopath is holding a grudge or grudges against somebody.
My x-spath hated is father and was proud that he did not attend the man’s funeral. My guess, he spent it drunk and sexing.
He mentioned and x-bf who is now the partner of his best friend. Of course he does not speak to this guy.
Regarding the last person he dated, “I have a busy schedule due to my job and he did not make enough time for me.”
Note how egocentric this all is. Also, not one nice word about any of them…