A woman who married and had children with two different sociopathic men wrote us this week. Her story and questions are timely since they allow me to mention another upcoming book, the conference Donna and I attended last weekend and to discuss vindictiveness.
It seems most women who have children with sociopaths end up with the sociopaths walking out on their children as well as the women, leaving the survivors to mop up and struggle to understand what happened on their own. From what I understand of sociopaths, the prevalent attitude they seem to behave as if they “don’t care” about anything except doing what benefits them”¦ (she told her story of marriage, children, custody battles and vindictive sociopaths)”¦ So, is vindictiveness a trait typically found in sociopaths or are these guys merely trying to maintain or regain their power and it just happens to look like vindictiveness on the surface? These guys have definitely expressed some serious rage, especially after losing as spectacularly as they did when they tried to take custody and prevent me from moving. Is anger an emotion sociopaths feel when they don’t get their own way? Do they ever “get over” it?
Many women tend to repeatedly pick sociopaths as partners
There are many women who have relationships with more than one sociopathic man. Sometimes children result from one or all of the relationships, since sociopaths like to father a lot of children. (My son’s father has 7 children I know about.) The resultant children carry the sociopath’s genes and are exposed to the sociopath’s fathering behavior.
Sociopathic/psychopathic men are at least 4 times more common than sociopathic women. The interpersonal love-relationship patterns are the means by which sociopaths replicate themselves and perpetuate sociopathy within our society. It is very important, then, to understand women who love sociopathic men. Is there anything different about them? Are they drawn to sociopaths because of prior abuse? Is it simply that sociopaths con them and they are especially gullible? These are tough questions for those of us who have had relationships with sociopathic men, but we have to ask them. The stakes are too high for everyone for us to avoid asking and answering these questions. Sandra L. Brown, M.A., and I recently conducted a survey/study that has addressed these questions and more. Stay tuned because a book with our initial findings is nearly complete. The results are enlightening and freeing.
Batterers often win custody of children
Last weekend Donna and I attended a conference, the Battered Women’s Custody Conference. This conference is held every year and so plan on attending next year if you missed it. The conference addresses one end of the spectrum of sociopaths—sociopathic men who are physically violent. It is incredible the courts often give children over to these sociopaths! Batterers are a little different from the sociopaths most of us know. These sociopaths have been referred to as secondary psychopaths, as opposed to the primary psychopaths we are most familiar with.
Primary verses secondary psychopathy
Secondary psychopaths are more insecure (than are primary psychopaths) about the status and power they so desire. Whereas primary psychopaths are grandiose and feel confident in their supremacy, secondary psychopaths are always on the lookout for threats to their status. They are also prepared to meet status threats with physical violence. Secondary psychopaths have more problems with impulse control than primary psychopaths. They also tend to be more emotional, displaying more anger. I think the average perpetrator of domestic violence fits the profile of a secondary psychopath very well.
There are other minor differences between secondary and primary psychopaths, but the similarities between them are more noteworthy than the differences. Both primary and secondary psychopaths are unable to love, have poor impulse control and impaired moral reasoning. Genetics play a substantial role in the development of both, and it is not true that one is environmental and the other genetic, as is commonly believed.
Sociopathic fathers
The parenting behavior of sociopaths has not been thoroughly studied. In my opinion the reason for this is the belief held by many researchers and clinicians that sociopaths abandon their young. This belief is related to another belief—that sociopaths are incapable of attachment. These two fallacies have stood in the way of efforts to eliminate this disorder and the suffering of victims. First of all, to those who hold on to the second misconception, If sociopaths are incapable of attachment, why do they engage in stalking? Scientists measure attachment as the tendency to seek proximity to a specific special other. Is not stalking the ultimate manifestation of attachment behavior? Sociopaths often verbally report they love others. Let’s take this to be a reflection of a longing for specific people, then we can start to understand sociopaths.
The feeling of longing
The feeling of longing sociopaths have is related to the fact that certain people in their lives have previously been a source of pleasure. We tend to get attached to things and people that have brought us pleasure in the past. There are three social pleasures: affection, dominance and sex, and possibly a separate fourth, parenting. Although sociopaths may experience a modicum of affection, the primary pleasure they derive from relationships is associated with power as opposed to love. When a sociopath says, “I love you,” he means he greatly enjoys the pleasure of possessing you and having power over you. SO how dare you question his love!
Children are also possessions sociopaths enjoy having dominion over. Part of the enjoyment of parenting they have is the prospect of turning, particularly sons, into miniature versions of themselves. For this reason, any money that the court orders your sociopath to give his children is not worth the trade off. If your sociopath will give up his possessions for a price, pay him off and be done with him. If the sociopath succeeds at his goal of turning his sons into miniature versions of himself, you will live your entire life surrounded by sociopaths, you will never escape and have peace/love.
Vindictiveness
Sociopaths are by nature extremely vindictive! Vindictiveness comes from the power/dominance system in our brains. Scientific studies show that sociopathic people derive great pleasure from revenge. Revenge is a very primitive emotion that evolved to ensure enforcement of social reciprocity. It evolved before the capacity for love. We know this because of studies of chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are very vindictive and vengeful when a comrade fails to reciprocate, and their capacity for love has not evolved much. It is only the threat of revenge that induces chimpanzees to cooperate with each other, because they do not have love bonds that motivate cooperation. When a chimpanzee shares his food, he does not likely get a warm fuzzy feeling inside, instead he knows that others will later do the same for him. If others fail to reciprocate, revenge is always taken.
Thankfully most humans receive a double reward when they cooperate with each other and a double punishment when they fail to cooperate. The double reward is the inherent pleasure in knowing we did a good for someone else, and the thought that good might someday be reciprocated. The double punishment is the guilt over harming someone and the fear that the harm will be reciprocated. Please hear me, sociopaths are like chimpanzees. They do not feel good when they do good for someone, they thus expect immediate reciprocity. They do not feel bad when they hurt someone, but they are smart enough to know revenge might follow. This is why prison is an occupational hazard for them. They also do not comprehend the guilt other people feel. This is why it is important to them to mete out huge punishments toward everyone who has offended them.
When you have to deal with sociopaths, be ever mindful that these individuals are devoid of pleasure from goodness and devoid of guilt over evil. Although they take advantage of other’s emotions, they have it in their minds that the rest of the human race is like them. They therefore feel it is necessary to get revenge in order to reduce the likelihood of future attacks on their status, power and possessions.
Glinda,
I am replying to a post from Jan 2008 but I just read it. You mention how the sociopath lost interest in the older child when the younger one came along. That is exactly what happened to my son when my daughter was born. The neglect of my son was purposeful and abusive. It included competing with him for the attention of the neighborhood children and keeping him out of the house because of the baby.
Our son was misbehaving so badly we took him to a psychologist and that was when I found out what was wrong and how bad it really was. The divorce came shortly thereafter and my son became himself again.
Psychopath did a horrible trauma bonding exit scene with the children ages 3 and 8 which must have worked because even though I raised them mostly without him, even as adults, they take his side and feel sorry for him.
Now as adults, he has alienated them both against me and destroyed our relationship. I suppose he wanted to show them off and take credit for them and turning them against me was just for fun. Revenge? I don’t think they have the emotional equipment to even think of revenge. They just cause chaos and pain because they can.
Sunflower-
The more I read your story, the more it seems like a version of what happened and is happening with me. One difference is that the genders are reversed.
Interesting, while I was going through the relationship a friend told me that she felt that my girlfriend was in the role of the stereotypical abusive ‘player’ male and that I had landed myself in the stereotypical ‘pining’ female!
I continue to wonder about this. My ex-gf had a male fraternal twin. Some things that I have read indicate that females sharing the womb with a male are exposed to much higher levels of testosterone and, that this can affect the personality and may be a contributing factor to personality disorders that I now suspect she has.
I have not had any vivid ideas or wishes in the area of vengeance. But, I hope that my ex-gf is at some point taught a lesson about her cruelty.
I believe that she has long ago ‘moved on’ into a new relationship. Probably that is where her next lesson will originate. But, the new guy probably has some of the traits and character that I have – only a nicer car and more money – LOL.
Ironic that she agued that she is a ‘hypersensitive’ person – but that she is so cold and calculating and executed the ‘discard’ process the way she did. And, this is significant to me, she did it with a ‘split’ approach. In the final days of our relationship, when she would call me she would say: “Hi. This is ‘S’ (her name), as if I was getting a call from a stranger or work associate and that I was not expected to recognize her voice. I was then never again “J” (my name) – but instead she referred to me as “dude”.
I understand that there is a website devoted to the ‘hypersensitive’ people . My ex-gf even had me check it out and we did the evaluation survey that appears on the site. I talked with her on the phone while we did it together. At the end I said to her that I thought that I might fit the profile of a hypersensitive person, too. To this, she responded with indignation and anger! She said that the excercise was supposed to be about HER and NOT about me! All I did was make a comment that I saw that fit some of the profile!!!
I really am not able to give this subject the time that it deserves. Maybe later this winter I will be caught up on my jobs, will have a few extra bucks in my pocket, the wounds will have healed sufficiently and I will then have the time to continue on this path of learning.
In the meantime, you are right about the resources and the support that this site provide – through the sharing and cumulative knowledge of the participants.
I apologize for sounding ‘needy’ confused or for venting and for appearing not ‘manly’ enough. But, maybe – it’s just all part of the process – I hope. My ‘compass’ has been knocked askew and I feel kinda ‘broken’ and am doubting myself in everything these days.
Sunflower, yes…………..oh, yes, I so identify with your epiphanies and I am so, so proud of you for having the courage to stare down the shame-core. Honestly. Seriously. And, sincerely.
I remember crying for days about the “inner child” that had been so damaged. Yeah….it was hard and painful, but once that grief for what I didn’t receive as a child – as ALL children deserve – I began to view myself with a completely different eye. “So, THAT’S why I was so easy? Oh………..KAY! Now, how do I proceed?” Oh, my, but it all made sense after that.
TOWANDA, Sunflower……..oh, BIG hugs and very strong encouragement to you!!!!!!
Fixerupper………..um………..what defines “manly,” if you don’t mind my asking? LOL!!!
You’re healing on a real, true, and emotional level. I think that’s pretty farking manly to face down your own demons with some courage, don’t you?
As far as the twin issue goes? Who cares? Whether that’s a valid excuse for her behaviors, or not, she is 100% toxic, bogus, and manipulative. That’s all we ever need to know: what they are, not why they are.
Brightest blessings for 2013.
Truthspeak-
Manly: When it comes to rejection, I am supposed to brush it all off. I am supposed to exude confidence and strength 24/7. I am supposed to provide cash, sex, guidance and be infallible in my wisdom and knowledge – without expecting anything in return. I was supposed to listen to my girlfriend cry and complain and to be stalwart, silent and accepting. I am supposed to be able to ‘go home’ or walk away and not care if she ever call me on contacts me ever again. I am supposed to be able to pick from any number of eligible females and carry on like nothing happened.
My ‘friends say: ‘Move on, move on. She is a slut.’
But the pain and the place in my heart is still there.
Sunflower,
It took me years to realize I was married to a psychopath. When we divorced all I knew was that he did not know how to love and he began hurting my son in favor of the new baby.
He proceeded his tactics on two other wives, both lovely women, and multiple step children and I finally saw him for what he is.
They fortunately got away because they had no children with him. I continued contact for my children not knowing the harm he was doing to them. I had the stupid notion that any dad is better than no dad especially if I kept him distanced. Now my children will not let me get away from him.
It has been torture since his third divorce when he targeted my children. He did not care about them at all when he had women to seduce and other targets to fill his needs. It has been going on for 15 years escalating to me having a breakdown and now my children cutting me off.
I do not know if they have the psychopathic gene or if they are just under his spell, minions unwittingly doing his dirty work. But I have to give up on my children now and go one with my life without them. This is just too painful to endure any longer. Our daughter cut us off and will not let us see the grandchildren.
I finally realized with the help from the loving and helpful people here that it does not matter if they are full fledged psychopaths or only mimicking his behavior. I cannot win.
The only way to win is to leave. So we will move. My sister has terminal cancer and I must stay for her and tolerate my daughter being in charge of her…her executor, POA and medical POA but as soon as my sister is gone, my husband and I are leaving our children to start a new life.
We will try to keep in touch with the grandchildren but we have no control over what their parents will allow. Soon enough they will be old enough to defy their parents and we will be there for them. The most horrible thing is seeing the pain and confusion in my babies eyes not knowing why we have suddenly been taken away.
We only know that we have done our best with them, been the best parents and grandparents that we could be and the children’s vengeance is their own or created by their father’s lies.
Fixerupper,
you’re on to something with that gender role. My ex did not behave like a stereotypical man at all. I was actually the man and the MOM in the relationship. He would demand to lie on my arm and curl up like a baby, make me hold him during the nights, wanted me to stroke his face like a baby. He followed me around like a baby, even into the bathroom where he would stand over me. I could not go to the toilet on my own, not even in public places. It did not matter if I shut him out, he would simply just unlock the door with his tools. It did not matter if I told him F*ck off, speak nicely and explain why, scream, leave him behind, ended the relationship – njiet nada, he would still be there. It was impossible to have 5 minutes on my own. If I did he’d be on the phone in matter of seconds.
One time he had borrowed my sweatsuit and he had not gotten the baggy ones, he had put on my skinny pants! Then he would lie on my arm and start to purr like a cat and digging his nails into my skin. I told him if he did that again I would paint his nails pink. He got mad.
Another time he gave me a lapdance out of the blue , danced like a woman and sat across over me with his bo**r. I was not turned on at all, I tried so hard not to laugh and then he slipped a big fart. The shock on his face was priceless and he jumped off me, ran into the bathroom and locked him self up. He did not come out again. I laughed so hard as I’ve never done before! Luckally for me he never gave me a lapdance again.
When his car broke down, guess who managed to tell what was wrong with it? Even if he tried to be “the man” and his hobby was to “repair” cars. Believe you me when I say he got mad, I was stupid and a woman- off course I knew nothing about cars!
Truth be told he did so many strange things as I would consider stereotypical woman and an INFANT. Some things I have no idea where he got from. My brother asked me once if he was gay because he acted very feminin.
The other strange thing about him is that he had no personal hygiene habits. I had to teach him and treat him like a baby. He showered once a week after me nagging him for it for days and he did not change his dirty underwear. I had to tell him that: “You change your dirty underwear everyday and after you’ve been in the shower you put on new ones and throw the old ones into the laundrybasket”. (he had a very physical hard job and sweated alot) I litterary had to tell him how to do all those sorts of things IN DETAILS. Brush your teeth, use deodorant, put on clean clothes, eat food, go shower, get up and go to work, go to the store and buy milk etc. One time I litterally had to brush his teeth FOR him!!!! (I can’t believe I actually did that, OMG what was I thinking?! *embarrassed* ) He did not manage any of it by his own, until that was, off course, when he discarded me. Then suddenly he could do all of those things all by him self. You have no idea how much I ARGUED with him because I felt like I was dealing with a baby and I did not want to be the mother. He was in full time job and had a very good salary, I was on social benefits and yet still, I paid all the bills.
My ex broke it of “nicely” (irony) too. Let’s see…. He wanted to break up. I said ok- no drama. Then he flipped 180, wanted to marry me, buy a house togheter- I agreed thinking give it one more go (now become very co-dependant) – then a few days later sexually assulted me several times ( one time in a public area at a construction site he worked on) . The next day he went to work, said he loved me so much, sent me a text and let me know we were over. I have not seen him since that morning. That was it. After living togheter for 6 months he dissapeared out of the blue, I got no explanation only police threats about his stuff.
Fixer, when it comes to your “manlyhood” I must say I never cared much for society’s gender roles. I change my own tires, I can drive a truck and chop my own wood and still I’ve earlier worked as a model. If a man can change tires, so can I. If I can wash clothes, so can a man. If I found a guy who was willing to examen/Study him self, speak genuinly about his feelings and work on him self, I would never let that man go. Be who you are and care less about “the rules”.
When it comes to P’s,narc’s, borderliner etc it’s always about them. The first sign that I will notice and the next time – take my shoes and run.
fixerupper,
When you mentioned her response to your comment about hypersensitivity, couldn’t that have been any less narcistic? “It was about ME! You’re not supposed to see whether you compare!” How stupid is that. It’s actually VERY normal to compare such a thing to yourself as well… It happens automatically. In order to understand the examples and symptoms they give we first need to make a mental picture of such and such emotional state. We have no true reference other than our own emotional states, no matter how empathic we are.
I agree with others not to let yourself be defined by gender expectations or roles. Just be yourself.
Sunflower, the ex-p would act like a total baby when he wanted my loving attention. I had to massage his scalp and hair at least twice a day. Meanwhile he’d have his head in my lap. But he had no problems taking care of himself in a hygienic sense… he’d shower 5 times a day if he could, brush his teeth as many times. Actually he tried to parent me in this way and criticised me on it: I had to shower after every time we had sex, he’d inspect my teeth to check whether they were clean enough, demanded I’d wash my hands straight after whenever I petted Darwin (prompted by envy… guess he hoped I’d stop giving Darwin attention for all the hassle it caused). It was absurd to the nonsensical. Meanwhile he could be horribly gross at the same time: he’d use a t-shirt or boxers as a hankerchief, spit and piss publically like a dog wherever he could.
Darwinsmom:
Say what? Yours truly did take it extremely into the opposite direction. I’m satisfied with normal habits…. My ex refused to have sex BEFORE he showered because he didn’t want to become dirty afterwards… I wanted him to shower because his habits gave me infections. Try having sex with someone who had not cleaned his private parts in over a week and he demanded sex 4 times a day every day (NO, no showers after sex either) . If I said no and he’d CRY stating I did not want him or desired him. He cried and throwed a tantrum til he got what he wanted. I was exhausted by it. I have never spent so much time at the doctor’s office as then. If I was sick did not matter to him, he demanded it anyway.
These spaths really are some strange creatures….
fixerupper, I so hear your pain. I am so sorry. And I so appreciate your honesty about how vulnerable you feel. I understand how sad and broken you feel. I may not have experienced the male need to be strong and stalwart, and all, such, but I truly thank-you for the opportunity to hear it from the other side. I know, that somewhere down the road, you will find yourself in a better place, and be all the wiser, stronger, better. Honest.
Just keep on keepin’ on, putting one foot in front of the other….
Sunflower:
What???? That man you described…wow, something was VERY wrong with him! He sounds like an extremely SICK puppy to me!! YIKES!!!