A woman who married and had children with two different sociopathic men wrote us this week. Her story and questions are timely since they allow me to mention another upcoming book, the conference Donna and I attended last weekend and to discuss vindictiveness.
It seems most women who have children with sociopaths end up with the sociopaths walking out on their children as well as the women, leaving the survivors to mop up and struggle to understand what happened on their own. From what I understand of sociopaths, the prevalent attitude they seem to behave as if they “don’t care” about anything except doing what benefits them”¦ (she told her story of marriage, children, custody battles and vindictive sociopaths)”¦ So, is vindictiveness a trait typically found in sociopaths or are these guys merely trying to maintain or regain their power and it just happens to look like vindictiveness on the surface? These guys have definitely expressed some serious rage, especially after losing as spectacularly as they did when they tried to take custody and prevent me from moving. Is anger an emotion sociopaths feel when they don’t get their own way? Do they ever “get over” it?
Many women tend to repeatedly pick sociopaths as partners
There are many women who have relationships with more than one sociopathic man. Sometimes children result from one or all of the relationships, since sociopaths like to father a lot of children. (My son’s father has 7 children I know about.) The resultant children carry the sociopath’s genes and are exposed to the sociopath’s fathering behavior.
Sociopathic/psychopathic men are at least 4 times more common than sociopathic women. The interpersonal love-relationship patterns are the means by which sociopaths replicate themselves and perpetuate sociopathy within our society. It is very important, then, to understand women who love sociopathic men. Is there anything different about them? Are they drawn to sociopaths because of prior abuse? Is it simply that sociopaths con them and they are especially gullible? These are tough questions for those of us who have had relationships with sociopathic men, but we have to ask them. The stakes are too high for everyone for us to avoid asking and answering these questions. Sandra L. Brown, M.A., and I recently conducted a survey/study that has addressed these questions and more. Stay tuned because a book with our initial findings is nearly complete. The results are enlightening and freeing.
Batterers often win custody of children
Last weekend Donna and I attended a conference, the Battered Women’s Custody Conference. This conference is held every year and so plan on attending next year if you missed it. The conference addresses one end of the spectrum of sociopaths—sociopathic men who are physically violent. It is incredible the courts often give children over to these sociopaths! Batterers are a little different from the sociopaths most of us know. These sociopaths have been referred to as secondary psychopaths, as opposed to the primary psychopaths we are most familiar with.
Primary verses secondary psychopathy
Secondary psychopaths are more insecure (than are primary psychopaths) about the status and power they so desire. Whereas primary psychopaths are grandiose and feel confident in their supremacy, secondary psychopaths are always on the lookout for threats to their status. They are also prepared to meet status threats with physical violence. Secondary psychopaths have more problems with impulse control than primary psychopaths. They also tend to be more emotional, displaying more anger. I think the average perpetrator of domestic violence fits the profile of a secondary psychopath very well.
There are other minor differences between secondary and primary psychopaths, but the similarities between them are more noteworthy than the differences. Both primary and secondary psychopaths are unable to love, have poor impulse control and impaired moral reasoning. Genetics play a substantial role in the development of both, and it is not true that one is environmental and the other genetic, as is commonly believed.
Sociopathic fathers
The parenting behavior of sociopaths has not been thoroughly studied. In my opinion the reason for this is the belief held by many researchers and clinicians that sociopaths abandon their young. This belief is related to another belief—that sociopaths are incapable of attachment. These two fallacies have stood in the way of efforts to eliminate this disorder and the suffering of victims. First of all, to those who hold on to the second misconception, If sociopaths are incapable of attachment, why do they engage in stalking? Scientists measure attachment as the tendency to seek proximity to a specific special other. Is not stalking the ultimate manifestation of attachment behavior? Sociopaths often verbally report they love others. Let’s take this to be a reflection of a longing for specific people, then we can start to understand sociopaths.
The feeling of longing
The feeling of longing sociopaths have is related to the fact that certain people in their lives have previously been a source of pleasure. We tend to get attached to things and people that have brought us pleasure in the past. There are three social pleasures: affection, dominance and sex, and possibly a separate fourth, parenting. Although sociopaths may experience a modicum of affection, the primary pleasure they derive from relationships is associated with power as opposed to love. When a sociopath says, “I love you,” he means he greatly enjoys the pleasure of possessing you and having power over you. SO how dare you question his love!
Children are also possessions sociopaths enjoy having dominion over. Part of the enjoyment of parenting they have is the prospect of turning, particularly sons, into miniature versions of themselves. For this reason, any money that the court orders your sociopath to give his children is not worth the trade off. If your sociopath will give up his possessions for a price, pay him off and be done with him. If the sociopath succeeds at his goal of turning his sons into miniature versions of himself, you will live your entire life surrounded by sociopaths, you will never escape and have peace/love.
Vindictiveness
Sociopaths are by nature extremely vindictive! Vindictiveness comes from the power/dominance system in our brains. Scientific studies show that sociopathic people derive great pleasure from revenge. Revenge is a very primitive emotion that evolved to ensure enforcement of social reciprocity. It evolved before the capacity for love. We know this because of studies of chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are very vindictive and vengeful when a comrade fails to reciprocate, and their capacity for love has not evolved much. It is only the threat of revenge that induces chimpanzees to cooperate with each other, because they do not have love bonds that motivate cooperation. When a chimpanzee shares his food, he does not likely get a warm fuzzy feeling inside, instead he knows that others will later do the same for him. If others fail to reciprocate, revenge is always taken.
Thankfully most humans receive a double reward when they cooperate with each other and a double punishment when they fail to cooperate. The double reward is the inherent pleasure in knowing we did a good for someone else, and the thought that good might someday be reciprocated. The double punishment is the guilt over harming someone and the fear that the harm will be reciprocated. Please hear me, sociopaths are like chimpanzees. They do not feel good when they do good for someone, they thus expect immediate reciprocity. They do not feel bad when they hurt someone, but they are smart enough to know revenge might follow. This is why prison is an occupational hazard for them. They also do not comprehend the guilt other people feel. This is why it is important to them to mete out huge punishments toward everyone who has offended them.
When you have to deal with sociopaths, be ever mindful that these individuals are devoid of pleasure from goodness and devoid of guilt over evil. Although they take advantage of other’s emotions, they have it in their minds that the rest of the human race is like them. They therefore feel it is necessary to get revenge in order to reduce the likelihood of future attacks on their status, power and possessions.
Thanks for replying to my (badly worded) question. I suspected as much. It would be helpful if research on psychopaths/sociopaths could be extended so that scans in childhood could be used on children who are suspected of such tendencies. Perhaps if caught early enough they could be trained to react correctly to different stimuli. I would hate to think that their brains are irreversibly damaged or ill-developed in early life to the extent that nothing can be done to reverse their dangerous condition. The alternative would be to remove them from society before they can wreak havoc on others – and I can’t see that ever happening.
As I read the comments everyone has posted it gives me comfort I used to think what I have done to receive this. My situation I met the wrong high school sweet heart 17 years ago thank god I didn’t married him it would of made it more difficult to leave due to the legal aspects. Our daughter is currently 14 years old he started his vanishing spells slow at first, one day then two and sort forth. I became used to the cycle of him leaving and coming back into me and my daughters lives it became me and my girlfriends jokes because we all knew we he vanish he will be back. I have cut the relationship off a couple of times with him only to reappear. My mistake I grew up with a loving family with both parents present and I wanted the same for my daughter not realizing his mental illness. The effects made on my daughter is very clear now and with the hard work of myself and the staff at her school we are addressing the issues of the abadonment and lack of support from her father. The last time he came back into our lives was almost 6 years ago he claim he grew up and wanted us back in his lives. Things were fine at first but due to his implusive behavior he ended back at his 2nd home again (prison) at 35 years old he has been arrested at 35 times and that is not showing his juvenuile record. He did 2 years in prison and I was trying to keep the family unit together finding out he lied again behind the reason he was locked up they sent home is police report when he got sent to the prison camp.. Still trying to hope for the best when he got out he got a job and we moved into a place together. Things got out of control so after, again his impulsive behavior got him in trouble again and the police was looking for him againt he lies the rage me and my daughter felt like we was walking on egg shells. my friends told me i wasn’t the same and i was miserable the verbal abuse he gave me and my daughter at times was unbearable. He did me the favor of going to work and not returning back home leaving everything he own behind. I wanted to end this and contacted him by email so that i drop off his things at his aunt’s house at the same time he can drop off the key we didn’t have to see or talk to each other he never responded. With him leaving us a week before my knee surgery he put me in the hole with finance’s as far as him not paying his portion of the bills nor was i able to work my part time job. I knew he would come to the house while he wasn’t there little thinks was done espn was on my tv in my room and i do not watch that channel, trash was place in my storage unit which that door is locked with the key. My landlord did not allow me to change the locks.. later on my tire came off my car thank god i was turning into my sister’s drive way.This was getting dangerous at that point i knew i was going to move my plan was to move while he was away in jail again. Yeah his impulsive behavior always have him end up at his 2nd job he was doing 120 days but during this time my dad had pass away. and i was devasted my dad was the one person who he fear and I had a nervous break down at the funeral because my dad was my protector. My family knew he was sick but also blame me for always taking him back but i had enough me and my daughter deserve better. well they have access to the newspaper in jail and all of a sudden he writes to me and my daughter and sent her a birthday card on her birthday mind you we haven’t heard or seen him since 6/30/07 and we received correspondce on 1/22/08. He claims he has a good heart and recongized his selfishness ill regards of how he left us. This crap i read so many times ago he was trying to find out if i had someone in my life and does he have a chance to come back; well i should of know eventhrough i didn’t go off on him with my reply letter i did let him know how i see him as a person and my involvment with his family is over ( thru the years when he vanished i still went out of my way to have his family see my daughter but i truly believe they all suffer so kind of mental illness) I cannot change the fact she is your daughter and when she gets older and she choices to be part of your family with you i do not care but i cannot do this any longer. My god i should of know he was going to be vindiciative. he got release on 2/8/08 no contact was made and i was happy thinking he got the message. Well on 2/16/08 when me and my daughter got home after a long saturday of outings she discover her bed was missing out of the house. He stole the bed immediately i called his mom in disgust and i thought just went off for all what has been done for my daughter as far as the alienation because she assumed i come from a well off family she didn’t even had to call to say hello to my daughter. I decided right then to move and took a big fiancial woe by breaking my lease and paying for rent prorated for somewhere else by 2/21 I signed a new lease and 2/23 we was moving. The next day 2/24 something told me to go on my deck to make sure everything was gone and clear i notice something down below when i walked down to the bottom of my deck. Her father had brought back her bed and placed it under there. I didn’t want to leave it there for my landlords because this wasn’t that kind of community that had things like that outside under the deck i had my friends move it on the truck and we threw it away. My daughter was upset becasue she didn’t want to bed back nor did i force her to take it back. My mom is concerned that he might of watch me and know my new location of residence but as of right now 3/4/08 I have no signs of him. He has not called me at my job which from last year i told him not to and he has not call my moms Hopefully this is the end but you know how you have that werid feeling it’s not really over that’s how i feel. He has no other children with anyone and over the years when he used to vanished he always considered me as his queen bee i don’t want that title anymore i want a title of wife and mother with someone who is really here for me; My friends and family believes he still has power of me because i still talk about what happens but i believe in time i can forget all this all happen so recently from my dad deaath
After my husband died, I dated a man I had known casually for about 10 years. he appeared to be “mr Nice Guy”–however I ignored the red flags that popped up in my “neediness” after my husband’s death, feeling “old, ugly and fat, no one would ever want me again” ya da ya da.
He seemed fixated on one of his past girlfriends who had gotten a new boy friend and was apparently happy. Long story short, her house burned and both she and I and several others feel strongly that HE BURNED HER HOUSE. There is not enough evidence to take it to court, but he had MOTIVE, OPPORTUNITY, and the expertise to do it (he was an electrician), he had talked to me about wanting to burn someone else’s house (a cousin who had scammed his father, but the story kept changing etc, and the manner that this woman’s house burned was similar to the way he had described planning to burn this other man’s house)
What did I do when he was talking about his revenge plans for his “cousin”—I talked to him about how revenge was a terrible thing to want to do, and tried to get him to see the moral irresponsibility in it, Geeze! Why would I want to What a RED FLAG that was, and I saw it waving in the breeze, and though I could “talk him out of feeling like that”–DUH!
When I did kick him to the curb, though, believe me it crossed my mind that my fire protection on my house needed to be updated. I think, though, that he was enough afraid of my sons’ reactions if my house burned that he decided to “get me” in some other way, which he did, but it was not quite so devestating as my house burning. It was more psychological revenge than physical. I think ulltimately though he is a psychopath, he is more the sneaky kind than the overt kind, like my son.
My son is extremely vindictive and still holds grudges against me for things I “did to” him when he was a teenager, like calling the law when I could not stop him from stealing.
His plan to kill me was because I stopped sending him money in prison, and also because I disinherited him from my will in favor of his adoptive brother and his biological brother. He new that if he could “off me” before my mother died, that he would be the beneficiary of an irrevokable trust, that if she died first, I could cut him out of.
If he had the resources to do so, I have no doubt that he would have me killed just because I have not let him control me, for revenge, even if it did not “benefit” him in any way financially, as well as both of his brothers because they have also turned their backs on him.
It is “amazing” the plans and plots that they can come up with, that sound like some kind of bad novel’s plot….but they are REAL. They DO happen. I laugh now, but at the time I went to a new therapist, I had to take in court documents and a witness to testify to the therapist that I was not some paranoid NUT CASE. And when you go over the details, it actually sounds like some of the paranoid nut case histories I have heard on the other side of the clipboard! LOL ROTFL, but at the time I WAS NOT LAUGHING. I guess I sort of have a “gallows sense of humor” about all this, but what else can you do but laugh at it,at this distance in time and emotion?
It is amazing now that I AM LAUGHING at things that only a few months ago would send me into a ball in the fetal position on the floor, shaking and shivering and feeling “crazy”–but
“just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean someone isn’t out to get you?
Being somewhat paranoid (in a logical sense) is protective when you are dealing with a Psychopath. It doesn’t mean you are crazy.
I am still prepared to move at a moment’s notice, and my RV is still sitting in my yard, packed, fueled, and containing everything I need to live on the “run” if need be. Is that crazy and paranoid? I don’t think so. As long as my Ps live and breathe, they will plot revenge.
I am wondering about the number of “suicides” reported in connection with sociopaths. My ex’s first spouse committed suicide. His story about the details just didn’t add up to me at the time. She committed suicide in 1997. We met in 2004 so I only had information that he provided.
After living with him for 2 years and going through a terrible divorce I have experienced how vindictive he really is. He tried to destroy me financially.
It’s been 1 1/2 years since the divorce and I have moved 150 miles away to another town. I still have nightmares and I’m afraid of him. I believe he may have killed her.
Do sociopaths hold grudges for long period of time? Do I have cause to be concerned because I am.
Dear OxD and Used Brauer, You have to do whatever you feel is right. Logic and explanations of the mind just dont come into it. When you have been through the kinds of situations that you have, your survival instinct just kicks in.
I am a firm believer of ‘vibes’. It is said that when a robber is plotting and thinking about robbing a house ‘you pick up on their thinking vibes’ and for unexplained reasons you make sure your property is locked and bolted – you dont know why, you just do it. When i get ‘insights’ like that I honour them 100 per cent. If I am travelling and I get a sudden impulse to go another way – I do it without questionning it. Shame I couldnt apply that to my relationships, but I am learning.
Dear Used Brauer,
Yes, they can hold on to vengeful thoughts for decades if my P-son is any indication. I have no doubt that many of them do hold grudges forever against people who have “disrespected” them or actually obtained legal justice.
Some are more dangerous than others, some have less impulse control, and some are able to plot and scheme. I wouldn’t want to bet my life that any one of them wouldn’t “do you in” if they were made or “injured” enough. My son has apparently hated me for turning him into the police at age 17, he is 37 now. Thank God he is still in prison.
Beverly, our “intuition” or as you say “vibes” I think is very valid. The Bushmen call it a “tapping in the chest” and it is an intuition that when they feel the tapping, they sit and “listen” and find the answer to the “taps.” It is almost telepathy. I am learning to listen to the “tapping” and my own intuition, my own “gut feelings”–what ever name you want to call it. But our minds must be quiet to hear it, and when we are stressed it is sometimes impossible to hear that “voice”–I think that is one reason the Ps like to keep us stressed, gaslighted, wondering about our own sanity, etc. because we CAN’T “listen to the tapping” when we are frantic. The internal dialog within us all sometimes drowns out our good sense and our intuitions.
We all get a certain amount of our “reality” from feed back from others. If you go to work one day, feeling well and happy, and everyone that approached you said “Dear, you look so sick” eventually you would wonder if you WERE sick, you’d go in the restroom and look in the mirror, stick out your tongue and examine it, etc.
Before the day was ended you would FEEL AWFUL.
When we deal with the psychopath they foist off THEIR version of reality on us—you are bad, you don’t love, you are mean, you are hateful, you are worthless, ya da, ya da, ya da. You start to wonder if some of these things might not be valid. Then you start to FEEL these things and realize that you might be these things, after all, you are told this by someone who LOVES you, and they wouldn’t LIE, right? It is for your own GOOD, right? So you can improve yourself to deserve them, right?
I wouldn’t be suprised if people aren’t “pushed” by the psychoplath to a feeling of worthlessness that would make them take their lives. I also wonder how many “suicides” are not actual murders that have been gotten away with by the Ps. Look at Claus Van Bulo (I can’t remember how to spell his name, he gave his wife insulin shots to kill her but only put her in a coma) to get her money. Eventually convicted I think.
BRainwashing and Stockholm Syndrome are very common I believe with the victims of Psychopaths. I’ve seen patients of mine who were so abused that I wanted to throttle the psycopathic abuser, but they wouldn’t even stand up for themselves when they could have because of physical disability of the abuser. They felt helpless even when they weren’t. I’ve done the same myself, only with my son, not a husband. I did it for a while with a BF.
I would never have taken my life, but there were times I didn’t see any joy in life, I didn’t want to live, but I wouldn’t have killed myself. But that state of mind is “emotional suicide” I think.
Hi-
I need your help. I just found our that my ex posted me as a psycho with my photo and phone number etc. on a website. I kind of knew this could happen, because I posted him there several months ago. I guess he just found out that he has been posted there.
It could destroy my career and reputation. But my guess is that he will keep posting me.I contacted the website to delete the post by e-mail, because the information was totally twisted and untrue. I said in the e-mail, if they do not delete the post, my lawyer will contact them. I do not know if this could have any effects. Should I do nothing? My gut feeling is just ignore it. It is a minor site. But if someone googles my name, they find it.
I have no intention of contacting my ex. What would you do?
Your advice would be greatly appreciated.
Dear Chaos,
I don’t mean this in a “tacky” or hateful way in any way, but TIT FOR TAT, you posted him first so he feels justified in posting you. The problem with them is that anything you do with justification, they will do as revenge. Even “Justice” like turning them in to the law and they go to jail, in THEIR mind is open season on revenge toward you.
My son is stil vengeful and enraged over me turning him in to the cops for robbery over 20 years ago. Sometimes, depending on how dangerous they are physically, your best bet is to leave sleeping dogs lie and not poke them with a stick, other times, it is best to fight it all out.
I wish I could give you some more advice on “what to do” you might see if you could get the site to take down your phone number, or change the number at least. Or post a rebuttal…a calm one, or just ignore it. I’m not sure what the legality of posting stuff is, or you might file suit against your X if it is “proveably” untrue and you want to go to the trouble and expense, but it will give him NS no matter what you do, and I figure if you get one site down, he will go to another one, and I think there are endless sites he can post you on. Or even put up a site for himself, they aren’t expensive.
My Psychopathic bio father before he died had published a 1200 page autobiography of which 99.9% is fabrication and lies. I “star” in a disproportionate several chapters, NOT ONE WORD OF WHICH IS TRUE, but after his death it was published FREE on the internet to anyone who wanted to read it…to give you an idea of how awful this thing is, it describes in GREAT DETAIL the breaking of the hymen on each of his wives, including my mother’s—anyway, when I found out it was FREE on the net, last summer after his death, I just about ‘LOST IT”—but you know, I got over that and I don’t care what he says or who reads it. There is not ONE person who knows me who will believe one word of it, and anyone else who reads it can fly a kite. AT one time my biio-father was quite wealthy (Forbes 400) and infamous, but when he died, 90% of his obit was about one of his previous wives and how she has become very successful. He hadn’t been active in business for over 10 years when he died, and the public’s memory is quite short…proving a negative is difficult, I wold have trouble proving that I wasn’t on the “grassy Knoll” in Dallas the day Kennedy was shot, and I’m not sure I could prove I wasn’t at Ford’s theater the night Lincoln was shot. LOL Your best bet might be just ignore it. I know that may “wrankle your feathers”—but I DO UNDERSTAND for sure! good luck and a big ((Hug)))
Dear OxDrover,
Thank you for your advice. I read your posts here every day and your posts really helped my recovery. I cannot thank you enough!
When I found the truth about him, I was very angry. For 9 years, he lied, lied, and lied. I stupidly wasted the best years of my youth on him. He disappeared just saying “Sorry, you deserve better” by e-mail on Christmas Day! While I suffered and felt miserable ALONE every Christmas for 9 years, he was probably with the other woman. I really wanted him to suffer in any way. For the first few months since I got out of the fog, anger kept me alive. I posted him there as revenge. Later, I kind of tried to take it down, because I thought he would post me there. But I forgot about it. And he did post me there.
Hopefully, the post will be deleted. Reading what he wrote about me made me laugh actually. I probably do nothing about it. Just let it go.