A woman who married and had children with two different sociopathic men wrote us this week. Her story and questions are timely since they allow me to mention another upcoming book, the conference Donna and I attended last weekend and to discuss vindictiveness.
It seems most women who have children with sociopaths end up with the sociopaths walking out on their children as well as the women, leaving the survivors to mop up and struggle to understand what happened on their own. From what I understand of sociopaths, the prevalent attitude they seem to behave as if they “don’t care” about anything except doing what benefits them”¦ (she told her story of marriage, children, custody battles and vindictive sociopaths)”¦ So, is vindictiveness a trait typically found in sociopaths or are these guys merely trying to maintain or regain their power and it just happens to look like vindictiveness on the surface? These guys have definitely expressed some serious rage, especially after losing as spectacularly as they did when they tried to take custody and prevent me from moving. Is anger an emotion sociopaths feel when they don’t get their own way? Do they ever “get over” it?
Many women tend to repeatedly pick sociopaths as partners
There are many women who have relationships with more than one sociopathic man. Sometimes children result from one or all of the relationships, since sociopaths like to father a lot of children. (My son’s father has 7 children I know about.) The resultant children carry the sociopath’s genes and are exposed to the sociopath’s fathering behavior.
Sociopathic/psychopathic men are at least 4 times more common than sociopathic women. The interpersonal love-relationship patterns are the means by which sociopaths replicate themselves and perpetuate sociopathy within our society. It is very important, then, to understand women who love sociopathic men. Is there anything different about them? Are they drawn to sociopaths because of prior abuse? Is it simply that sociopaths con them and they are especially gullible? These are tough questions for those of us who have had relationships with sociopathic men, but we have to ask them. The stakes are too high for everyone for us to avoid asking and answering these questions. Sandra L. Brown, M.A., and I recently conducted a survey/study that has addressed these questions and more. Stay tuned because a book with our initial findings is nearly complete. The results are enlightening and freeing.
Batterers often win custody of children
Last weekend Donna and I attended a conference, the Battered Women’s Custody Conference. This conference is held every year and so plan on attending next year if you missed it. The conference addresses one end of the spectrum of sociopaths—sociopathic men who are physically violent. It is incredible the courts often give children over to these sociopaths! Batterers are a little different from the sociopaths most of us know. These sociopaths have been referred to as secondary psychopaths, as opposed to the primary psychopaths we are most familiar with.
Primary verses secondary psychopathy
Secondary psychopaths are more insecure (than are primary psychopaths) about the status and power they so desire. Whereas primary psychopaths are grandiose and feel confident in their supremacy, secondary psychopaths are always on the lookout for threats to their status. They are also prepared to meet status threats with physical violence. Secondary psychopaths have more problems with impulse control than primary psychopaths. They also tend to be more emotional, displaying more anger. I think the average perpetrator of domestic violence fits the profile of a secondary psychopath very well.
There are other minor differences between secondary and primary psychopaths, but the similarities between them are more noteworthy than the differences. Both primary and secondary psychopaths are unable to love, have poor impulse control and impaired moral reasoning. Genetics play a substantial role in the development of both, and it is not true that one is environmental and the other genetic, as is commonly believed.
Sociopathic fathers
The parenting behavior of sociopaths has not been thoroughly studied. In my opinion the reason for this is the belief held by many researchers and clinicians that sociopaths abandon their young. This belief is related to another belief—that sociopaths are incapable of attachment. These two fallacies have stood in the way of efforts to eliminate this disorder and the suffering of victims. First of all, to those who hold on to the second misconception, If sociopaths are incapable of attachment, why do they engage in stalking? Scientists measure attachment as the tendency to seek proximity to a specific special other. Is not stalking the ultimate manifestation of attachment behavior? Sociopaths often verbally report they love others. Let’s take this to be a reflection of a longing for specific people, then we can start to understand sociopaths.
The feeling of longing
The feeling of longing sociopaths have is related to the fact that certain people in their lives have previously been a source of pleasure. We tend to get attached to things and people that have brought us pleasure in the past. There are three social pleasures: affection, dominance and sex, and possibly a separate fourth, parenting. Although sociopaths may experience a modicum of affection, the primary pleasure they derive from relationships is associated with power as opposed to love. When a sociopath says, “I love you,” he means he greatly enjoys the pleasure of possessing you and having power over you. SO how dare you question his love!
Children are also possessions sociopaths enjoy having dominion over. Part of the enjoyment of parenting they have is the prospect of turning, particularly sons, into miniature versions of themselves. For this reason, any money that the court orders your sociopath to give his children is not worth the trade off. If your sociopath will give up his possessions for a price, pay him off and be done with him. If the sociopath succeeds at his goal of turning his sons into miniature versions of himself, you will live your entire life surrounded by sociopaths, you will never escape and have peace/love.
Vindictiveness
Sociopaths are by nature extremely vindictive! Vindictiveness comes from the power/dominance system in our brains. Scientific studies show that sociopathic people derive great pleasure from revenge. Revenge is a very primitive emotion that evolved to ensure enforcement of social reciprocity. It evolved before the capacity for love. We know this because of studies of chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are very vindictive and vengeful when a comrade fails to reciprocate, and their capacity for love has not evolved much. It is only the threat of revenge that induces chimpanzees to cooperate with each other, because they do not have love bonds that motivate cooperation. When a chimpanzee shares his food, he does not likely get a warm fuzzy feeling inside, instead he knows that others will later do the same for him. If others fail to reciprocate, revenge is always taken.
Thankfully most humans receive a double reward when they cooperate with each other and a double punishment when they fail to cooperate. The double reward is the inherent pleasure in knowing we did a good for someone else, and the thought that good might someday be reciprocated. The double punishment is the guilt over harming someone and the fear that the harm will be reciprocated. Please hear me, sociopaths are like chimpanzees. They do not feel good when they do good for someone, they thus expect immediate reciprocity. They do not feel bad when they hurt someone, but they are smart enough to know revenge might follow. This is why prison is an occupational hazard for them. They also do not comprehend the guilt other people feel. This is why it is important to them to mete out huge punishments toward everyone who has offended them.
When you have to deal with sociopaths, be ever mindful that these individuals are devoid of pleasure from goodness and devoid of guilt over evil. Although they take advantage of other’s emotions, they have it in their minds that the rest of the human race is like them. They therefore feel it is necessary to get revenge in order to reduce the likelihood of future attacks on their status, power and possessions.
Dear Chaos,
I’m glad if I have helped you in any way with my posts, being validated by someone else for your pain is so important to us all I think.
Yea, anger does keep us alive for a while, but I sure wouldn’t want it to be a “way of life” it takes too much energy. I can tell you I have lay awake at night dreaming of putting splinters under their nails and lighting them on fire! But that’s not productive for US to even think too much about that kind of thing.
I now that my P bio father was such an angry man, it seemed like it was the only emotion he had. Everyone in the world was an A$$hole except him, everyone was stupid except him, everyone was malicious except him–HA, if ever there was a mean, malicious, hateful human being it was HIM. Fortunately 3 of his 4 offspring didn’t end up like him. The funny thing about my P-bio father though was that though he totally and completely despised every other human on earth as beneath him, he CRAVED THEIR ADORATION and approval. Yet, because he despised them, it was “worthless”–what a spot to be in. Never getting satisfaction that lasted or was worthwhile no matter what he did. He was such a FAKE and lied when the truth would have fit better, puffed himself up with fake this and fake that, tried to make himself admired for things he never did. He was the great imposter, but most people just A) didn’t like him or B) hated him or C) laughed at him, only a few low lifes actually “admired” him.
He was dangerous though if you poked him, so I did my best not to. He was also a coward though, so you had to know where to step carefully.
The best revenge is a GOOD LIFE and I have had my share of knocks in life (mostly by letting Ps victimize me one way or another) but I have also had some incredibly wonderful things and I have two wonderful sons that love me and think I am awesome, and I think they are awesome!
Don’t look at your 9 years with the P as “wasted” look at them as an ADVANCED DEGREE in the University of Hard Knocks. There are some good take home lessons from dealing with the Ps, and I don’t think that even the most horrrible experiences should be “wasted” time if we learn from them and grow.
((((BIG HUGS))))
The act of justification that becomes act of revenge. Boy oh boy. So true. Brilliant. Ive not spent so much tme on this site as today, but sadly ptsd is hovering, a little headache dulled by wine, but it’s all for empowering me.
I exposed spath neighbour for antisocial behaviour to police and any authority in relation to their specific harrassment. Authorities displayed signs in the area in relation to this harrassment. Every NY’s Eve for the last five years they act out their harrassment, so I start the new year acknowledging it. Only on one day of the year. Designed to maintain the ptsd, but also tragically humorous. The fact they need to continue this revenge suggest in big neon lights that they’re still hurting that I exposed their antisocial behaviour. The nature of the harrassment is that somebody has to get apile of sh!t and post it on our property.
Last year they tried something else (car damage). By doing this yet more clue to the hatred that still haunts them.
Whilst I do nothing, they advertise they’re still fragile when I exposed them. Imagine carrying a bag of sh!t and depositing it in the same place for 5 years running on the same day. It won’t be them, but they get their minions to do it.
Best revenge is a good life.
to my spath sis my good life (lack of response) to her means I dont get her abuse and too meek to speak out,. I learned extremely young (around 10) that in exposing any hurt I feel from her behaviour is confirmation that it is working and she is winning.
I know people have lost loved ones through cancer, and this is going to sound really tactless. The spath neighbour lost a breast to cancer, a husband, a dog, her friends and her integrity within a couple of years.
In those years I won by reading 40 years of my own analysis validated by this site and many others. Understanding that the less I said, it was in fact the best option. Hearing some devastating pain from my mother and father who spoke to me in confidence about their daughter (spath sis). Realising and thanking the universe I am not like her. making some great pals and with a few long term plans up my sleeve if I believe in myself 1% more. And just really thankful that all those years I said, thought, wrote, cried about my spath sis was in fact all true, validated, scientific and supported. I’ve also exposed my childhood sexual abuse (by spath sis) on my medical file. I receive counselling, but it’s not an expert in socipathy, but he’s a gem.
She lives the life of a film star, the last five years has seen her enjoy a thousand million things, whilst I was stuck in 2005 with ptsd. I am striking and have talents she will never own. She is a doctor with icecold interest in her elderly parents (I maintain their health, she does F all)
I’ve a new kind of abuse that reeks of spath sis and the neighbour (cyber abuse). I’ve had an online presence for 10 years. One time I advertise my name, the abuse appears in weeks.
Why should I be thinking to change my name? I nearly did, but glad I didn’t let her make me do it.
LIVE WELL. Stay silent. Watch with intrigue at your disordered mentally unstable abusers without they knowing anything about your knowledge.
This article is about center to where I am thinking now. Trying to evaluate how much risk there is in the future.
I’m doing the get invisible stuff.
Disappearing my name from public view and on billing etc. Using PO boxes all over the country to hide my true location.
No cell phone that can be traced.
Now what? How much more?
I’m going to take the first ex to the mat. The narcissist is going down.
Boy would I like to see the info on why we do it over and over.
And some way to calculate how risky where we are is relative to the spath’s release date. …..
Dear Silver,
“info on why we do it over and over.” There are some characteristics the victiims have in common, just as there are characteristics the Ps have in common….one of the things is that we are too trusting. We have too much empathy/pity/caring, whatever you want to call it so we are willing to give. We are also LOYAL. We are not quitters, so once we are hooked in, we hang in there for the long haul, giving more and more and more.
I think where I “went wrong” in my life was that 1) because I had not truly been loved and nurtured as an infant and a child by my maternal DNA donor, I was HUNGRY for love and approval, mostly approval. So It made me very vunerable to the LOVE BOMB they throw at us at first to hook us.
Once I started to feel the pain of the rejection after the love bomb, I kept trying to return to the feelins I got from the Love Bomb….then the D & D (devalue and discard) by the first Psychopath. Dealing with it all left me injured and bleeding, but I really hadn’t learned what hit me. Hadn’t seen it at all.
The next time an abuser say the NEON SIGN of “potenital victiim” on my forehead, I again fell for the LOVE BOMB and rinse and repeat. I still had not caught the drift of WHAT the scenario was. So on and on, never really learning from my mistakes because I truly didn’t SEE what had hit me.
NOW I know what hit me. I know where I was vulneable and what the PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR they show. They all LOOK NORMAL but there is a PATTERN in them. I also realize there are PATTERNS in my own behavior…weak spots in my ” protective wall,” if you will.
Now, I no longer meet someone and OPEN THE WALL IMMEDIATELY and let them inside. People must earn my trust now, and if they show that they have the RED FLAGS of dishonesty, lying, anger management problems, etc. or any other sign of a psychopath, then I WILL NOT open that protective wall for any amount of LOVE BOMB. I hope this makes some sense.
I no longer live in terror, but I do live cautiously because while it might be “nice” to think everyone is what they present themselves to be, but NOT EVERYONE IS.
I’m glad you are taking precautions so they will have difficulty tracking you. Did you get any of the books or look them over that I wrote about for people who are or might be being stalked? There’s some good and “easy to follow” information in them.
The main thing though I would advise is to not be TOO distrusting or live in TERROR. It just “ain’t worth it” to be terrorized. That is all a matter of attitude, and we can control our attitudes and what we accept as “our truths” so just keep on learning and growing. It’s all anyone can do, really. (((HUGS)))) and God keep you safe!
Oxy,
It sounds like you’ve read Sandra Brown’s and Dr. Leedom’s book, Women Who Love Psychopaths. When I read about the character traits common to victims, I damn near fell on the floor. When they wrote about vicitims be hyper-empathetic–I totally get it. We can “feel” anothers unspoken pain, the book says, and I find this definitely to be true in my case. Very tough to get one’s mind around the fact that these things CANNOT CANNOT CANNOT be healed with love and understanding.
And you’re so right—it would be great if you could take everyone at face value, but again, it’s a tough pill to swallow when you realize to what degree that isn’t the case. I hear you–I am so susceptible to the love bomb, since I never got it as a kid. I’ve too much of a wall up nowadays, but it’s good to know that we’re slowly learning how to protect ourselves.
You said that dealing with all of it left you “injured and bleeding.” I think I have been so astonished at just how damaging and traumatic it is/has been for any of us who have attempted a relationship with these people. What is so confounding is that they can spend time with someone and seemingly care about that person, and yet do the most heinous things without even missing a beat. No genuine caring, no loyalty, no remorse, no guilt. I remember the Spath telling me the second time I got back with him that he was “on my side.” It’s difficult to imagine a person so thoroughly damaged that they cannot attach and are compelled to do these things. And as I’ve written that statement, I’m aware that I feel “sad” for him, for all those people–and that is where my hyper- empathy gets me in trouble.
I’m still too hurt and afraid to date, but I am slowly getting there. I’ve promised myself to trust the red flags, even if it means letting go of some potentially nice men. I’d just assume not take that chance.
Dear HOpeful,
Yes, I definitely get what you are saying, and I was SOOOO needy at the times in my life I was targeted by the Psychopaths. The X-BF-P was after my husband’s death and I felt so downnnnnnnnn! The Love Bomb was like honey to a bee it DREW ME IN, made me feel so GREAT!!!!
Yes, I read that book, the FIRST version with S. Brown AND Dr. Leedom. I haven’t seen (and don’t care to) the SECOND version which S. Brown did by herself.
It only stands to reason taht there is SOMETHING about us that makes us a bit more VULNERABLE to them more than others. Just as a lion can pick out the ONE animal in a herd of a thousand that has something that makes it slightly more vulnerable to attack than the other 999, the psychopaths find our weaknesses (in one case the excess of empathy) and uses that to increase the odds of success in their attack.
Few lions will attack a healthy zebra or larger types of antelope because if they get a kick to the jaw or face and become injured they will surely starve to death. I’ve seen lions with broken jaws and their doom is sealed. It is important for the predator to be able to judge the prey correctly in order to protect themselves. We in turn, must be able to judge the danger in each “stranger” that approaches us, and not automatically give an ALL CLEAR signal.
We tell our kids “don’t get in the car with a stranger” and yet we do that very thing. Meet someone on line that we really have no way of checking them out and after a short term meeting we get in the car or in the bed with them. NOT a good choice.
I had a group of young men at my house last night, they came by to pick up my son D to go rock climbing and ended up spending the night her and leaving in the morning. One of them mentioned he had picked up a woman who was walking in heat of Little Rock, the capital city of my state. It wa 107 degrees and he felt sorry for this woman walking along the street….she was a HOOKER he found out quickly…he wasn’t looking for a “date”, he was just offering her a ride out of the kindness of his heart!~but he might have gotten his throat slashed for his trouble.
I think being aware of yourself and not pushing yourself back into Dating too soon is a good thing. It takes TIME to heal and time ALONE to ponder what is going on inside yourself. If a jperson gets back into a relationship too soon, they don’t have the leisure and time to really truly heal. Sometimes people think that a new relationship will take away the pain from the lost one. (I thought that after my husband died) But it doesn’t work like that.
I’ve culled out my own “friends” that were toxic and my family members that are toxic as well. I’m “alone” but yet, not lonely, as far as relationships go. I’ve only had a few dates, but none of them are ones in which I am even tempted to have a longer relationsihip with them. I don’t want a relationship that is not open and honest. Much better off without any than with a bad one.
OX,
I am doing a lot of things those books talked about:)
Dating? LOL! I turned into a mom again. No time for that. Between teens and dogs, my dance card is full!
And I am surrounded by friends who are standing guard. Its all good and right for now.
Funny story about the hooker. But a good analogy!
Ox,
I’ve followed he LF blog for a while, though I usually don’t post, but I’ve been able to see that you’ve had some terribly disheartening, awful things happen–by anyone’s standards. It’s really a testament to how resilient you are that you keep plugging. I’ve also read about how common it is for P’s to target people who have lost a loved one–or are vulnerable in some other way.
Is there something that Dr. Leedom and Sandra Brown disagreed on? You had mentioned not caring to read the current edition. Are you able/willing to share why? It does have a lot of the neuroscience research that has shown that these people, whom Sandra calls the “low/no conscience” group, have definite brain differences. I thought this was particularly interesting.
Dear Silver,
Yea, “full dance card” is true if you are parenting, working, and living!
I thought the “hooker thing” was actually funny too, the other guys were giving him grief about “picking up a hooker” and I overheard it!
He really is such a NICE “kid” that he just never thought about a woman walking in that area of town being a HOOKER. LOL She’s probably the first face to face encounter he ever had with “that kind of” woman. He also didn’t realize that he could have been involved with danger picking her up—and her thinking the offer of the “ride” was an offer of a “date.”
In a way, that sweet young man is a PERFECT victim for a psychopath on the “stroll” for a victim. He is nice, caring, giving, too trusting, and has never been exposed to the conscience-less type in any meaningful way.
It is difficult for us to comprehend the levels of EVIL that these people are capable of on any scale.
Hopeful, I’d really rather not say a detailed reason “why” I no longer follow what Sandra Brown writes. Not that she is “wrong” in much of what she writes.