A reader wrote in with the following:
I have a question for you related to the sociopath and the therapeutic relationship, and how to regain trust in the therapeutic process when it appears to have failed you during the relationship.
I have been in therapy with a therapist I trust and have bonded with for more than two years, as well as in group therapy, most of which was also parallel to the duration of my marriage to a sociopath. For a short period of time, the sociopath was in therapy with me in order to try work out the issues in our marriage.
I am currently struggling to regain my trust in therapy, when I view it as having eroded the very instincts that were telling me to get out of the relationship and away from the sociopath by teaching me how to work on “my issues” in the relationship, to be more understanding, less demanding, less needy, etc.
I do not blame therapy for my getting into or even staying in the relationship (as obviously no one could have known he was a sociopath if even I didn’t), but I’m having trouble continuing to recognize its value when I feel like it was a primary force in suppressing the red flags that were popping up everywhere screaming for me to leave him, because it had me focusing on “my issues” and how my past was influencing me to assume negative traits in him that were perhaps more tied to “my parents” or “family of origin” or to his natural family of origin issues.
I have tried to bring these issues and concerns up in my therapy, and am told that there is no way that anyone could have known, and that my rage needs to be directed towards the sociopath only.
But my point isn’t really rage or anger at her or the group for not seeing the truth, but really just in how to learn to value the process again, when in at least one case, it was reinforcing the same mind games he was playing with me.
I hope I’m being clear here and that this makes sense. I do honestly value and understand the necessity of therapy and would like to regain this trust, but am increasingly confused by how to do so given the doubts this situation has raised.
I would love some guidance or thoughts on this, or just to know if anyone else has experienced it and how they’ve coped.
Dr. Leedom answers
Thank you for taking the time to share your story and this important question. I have some very strong opinions about therapy and so forewarn you ahead of time.
First, I believe that anything offered by professionals, that is supposed to treat an illness, should have proven efficacy. In this regard, I hold psychotherapy to the same standard as I would medication. Psychotherapy should have proven benefits or it should not be sold. Sometimes people would opt to take a medication that does not have proven benefit because they feel good doing so. In that case, a doctor can tell the patient, “Here try this, it is not proven and may have side effects, but you might feel better.” In the same vein, if a therapist uses techniques that are unproven, he/she should be required to say, “This therapy may make you feel good but there is no scientific evidence that it works.”
Psychotherapy with proven benefit?
The above comment out of the way, there are psychotherapies with proven benefits. Therapy that works has goals and is of brief duration. If you are in therapy, work with your therapist to develop very specific goals. Wanting to feel better is NOT a specific goal. Specific goals often surround the symptoms of disorders. For depression, goals would be to improve sleep patterns, increase activities like self care and house work, and to decrease the dysfunctional thoughts that go along with the depression. Another goal for therapy could be to begin and maintain a satisfying friendship.
In regard to an intimate relationship, the goals of the therapy should also be articulated. The goal should be to increase loving behavior and to decrease negative behavior. If there is ongoing physical abuse, couples therapy is not considered acceptable. If there is psychological abuse, it has to stop before therapy can begin.
In general, therapists should not give advice. Then they are not responsible if someone stays in a relationship with a sociopath. That being said, having a vision for a functional relationship and a goal to attain function within 4 or 5 sessions should weed out sociopaths. Similarly, substance abuse has to stop before “therapy” can begin.
There are two specific therapies with proven efficacy CBT and DBT. DBT is a type of CBT.
What is CBT?
Cognitive-Behavior Therapy is devoted to the relief of human suffering using methods that have been shown to work. The latest in scientific advances are used to design personalized treatments in a culturally sensitive manner. In CBT the therapist and client work together to determine the goals for therapy, the agenda for each session, home practice between sessions, the usefulness of each intervention, and how long to continue therapy. In CBT the client does the work! The therapist is a facilitator.
What is DBT?
Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) is a comprehensive treatment specifically developed for individuals with impulsive and self-harm behaviors. These behaviors can include binge eating, destructive relationships, self-cutting, frequent suicidal thoughts, urges, or attempts, and other self-destructive tendencies. Many individuals with these behavior patterns also meet criteria for personality disorders.
DBT combines cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) strategies with Eastern mindfulness (Zen) practices and involves both individual therapy and group skills training. Clinical research has consistently found DBT to be effective in reducing self-destructive behavior patterns and in optimizing ability to cope more effectively.
Some links:
Guidelines for choosing a CBT therapist.
Is DBT for you?
If you are in long term therapy and feel supported, and the therapy makes you feel good, don’t leave because of these recommendations. I have written this post for people who are questioning the therapy they are receiving. Most importantly, the joke about the light bulb is no joke. How does a psychotherapist change a light bulb? First it has to want to change.
I just found out myself I have lived with a narcissist for 40 years, tried 5 different counselors in 15 years and none of them ever explained to me that people like this exist. Ten years ago couples therapy destroyed me, he won her over and I have never been the same since.At the time I knew I was living through something but I could not put my finger on what it was. I managed to pick myself up because of my kids and move on once again, like I always did thinking something was very wrong with me. I could only endure it for so long then I would fall apart again and be convinced something was seriously wrong with him, I searched on the inter net for answers. I found abuse sites, I was certainly abused, financially, verbally, emotionally, in the beginning physically, not in later years. I had not realized how the every day picking and pecking was abusive. nothing I did was right. So now we go for help again, he just needs sensintivity training and we’ll be ok. His duel personalities made it impossible for me to get anyone around me to believe how terrible my life was. Told therapist two years ago at another braking point, I had to understand my part in this and know exactly what was wrong with him because I could no longer try to live the way I was living.So I told my theapist, I needed to be with a group of abused women that felt the way I did, becasue no one understood what it was like.I realized that he had absolutely no empathy or feelings at all, that is why he could do all the terrible things he did, cried through a session about that. The following visit, she had a sheet printed out for me, 1- join the red hat society 2- volunteer at a homeless shelter 3- read books to kids in the library. I felt insane, and that she forgot why I was there. I told her I tried with everything I had in me to live that way and I could no longer do it.I did not go back to her. He was going to a psychiatrist at the same place but lieing as usual, not believing anything could be wrong with him. My point to all of this is ,I have no faith at all in the mental health field. I gave off so many red flags to every one I talked to, beginning with, so much abuse, what to do with all the memories, to the biggest clue, no empathy and no one ever said a word to me, no one even explained how abusive the relationship was, most of it, I was conditioned to, didn’t know it was abuse. I thought I was not saying the right words, And worse I am insane. I was saying all the right words, at the most broken times in my life, when I needed help, I got the worst counseling possible and he always walked away fine. I lost my sister last year that made me pursue what was wrong, For some reason I did not want to die not knowing what I lived through, he retired at the same time. He had no where to run. I tore down every excuse he had ever given me, I spent three months of hell and comming to the conclusion, that he is a narcissists, finding it on line. 40 years of marriage meant nothing to him, I meant nothing, he had no memories of the abuse or what he did to me, which every time we went for help, I thought he carried around in his mind, but no. I grieved the life lost, the messed up relationship with my kids becasue of his behavior, that was the most devestating part of it all, I could live with what he did to me, but as a family, he divided us all through the years, and there is no closeness as a family. My son is also abusvie to me, he learned well from his father. My kids always knew something was wrong with him, but he gets their empathy, he works it that way too. I tried to tell my kids that he has a personality disorder, they are upset with me that I can’t move on, they accept him, thats Dad, I have been in terrible shape and now he is being so nice to them both, that I look more mentally ill than him. I know I need help and support that I can’t get from anyone in my life around me. I can not simply move on with out my life and suffering being validated by someone. I did not deserve any of this, he gets a free pass, he has to do nothing. How do I find the right therapist and how do I get my kids to understand, they are narcissistic supply, he cannot love anyone. thank you for listening mamolie
also, many victims have PTSD because their relationship with the P and some therapists are really not qualified to treat or even understand PTSD from emotional & psychological trauma
Hi, Mamolie, my heart goes out to you for what has happened to you. You indeed did not deserve this. I hope that since you wrote this post you have received some validation, comfort and support. I, too, have been disappointed by therapists and made to doubt myself. I can feel the pain that you wrote about. I remember looking on the INternet seven years ago when my marriage ended and finding a few article on abuse, almost nothing on narcissism and sociopathy. And of course my therapist, while helpful in some respects, never used the words narcissist or sociopath. But lately there is a lot more informaiton available and I am feeling more hopeful. I have been told that the best therapists for dealing with these issues are psychodynamic therapists who deal with attachment disorders and who are experts in self psychology and object relations. I have not tried them myself; this is what I have read from other experts. So I will keep trying ot find the right therapist to relieve some of the pain. I hope you will try, too. I don’t believe the sociopaths and narcissists get a free pass; they are suffering, too; they have been crushed since children. But in their inability to deal wiht their own suffering they do the most horrible and cruel things to us, their victims, so the only choice we have is to get away from them and stay away. I do feel pity for them because they will never feel love or any real emotions. At the same time, I will stay away forever. They are not fully human and they are dangerous. Good luck to you and I hope you find hte support you are looking for.
Please don’t give up on therapy! I am a mental health therapist who married a narcissist and engaged to a sociopath. Due to my experiences, I am very knowledgable now on personality disorders and their impact on others. I have several colleagues who are educating themselves as well. It is so difficult because as therapists, you have to know a little about everything, and there are some people not well trained in dealing with this complex problem. From my experience, I think it is nearly impossible to do couples work, when one partner has a personality disorder because the reality is so skewed. Unfortunately, after years of the “unhealthy” one telling the “healthy” one (also called “crazy-making”) everything is his or her fault, that person enters the therapy arena with that presentation. It takes a very skilled therapist to differentiate. My advice is go to therapy alone and ask the therapist what their expertise is in. Trust is so hard in these situations, so give the therapist a shot, but if your gut tells you it doesn’t seem right, then find a new one. Just remember the jeans at Wal-mart do not fit like the ones at Target, so keep shopping!
Deep hurt and discovery. 5 years ago I got an email from James- he wrote to tell me how he had fallen hopelessly in love with my beautiful daughter- a wonderful letter asking us how to make her favorite food. We met many emails later. so charming and so good looking and polite, constantly telling us of his love for our daughter (who was and artist and mildly bi polar) but she was a raving beauty and becoming a star in the art world.He was very talented, and had many businesses -start ups, with some small sucess.(but he worked in a leaking studio) We were important in this media world. He had money, inhereted that he could not get his hands on, but bad credit,a great smile.. Our daughter asked us to co sign for some investment- she also put her money in their DREAM . We traveled with them often and worked on many jobs together- we gave him conections- and heard odd lies of how he had aquired the work- he used her contacts through her art contacts our family and all of our efforts to help him suceed. I guess we are luckier than most- as he paid us back most- but she spent months building a beutiful workplace for them to make their art in. her star started to fall-he started to tell her she was getting ill again. putting her down. days after he paid us back the 1st part of the “loan” he broke up with her when she returned home to visit a dying grandmother. Then he came to sweep her back- after a month of break up. We had heard him lie and to drop names to help him rise in his career- using our “name ” he started many buisnesses in the 5 years- all went by the wayside after a few months- we wondered if our daughter was one to go by the wayside soon- they started another business- and he quickly started to tell her she was mental ill nad would put her down. she had lost all friends over the 5 years except 2 girlfriends-he told her all of her friends were loosers- he was jealous if she went out with her friends.. we started to wonder where his old friends were. We had visited with his family many times. he had proposed lavishly to our daughter at a family christmas several years earlier. She adored him, but would mention he had a temper(that we never saw) we almost did not believe her- but now and then we saw it come out- he dumped her this year when she was home- over the internet- and…. got married to a woman(a famous star) 6 weeks later. He gave her the house for a while to organize her life and pulled several scare tactics- she held her ground untill he payed her most of her money . He had never said he was sorry- he took her name off of all their art- deleted all of their join efforts on the internet -said he was never engaged to her. Took the work space, the dog and swaggered away.He benefited greatly from her contributions .
It has taken me 6 months to come to the conclusion that the charleton who jilted my daughter is a sociopath. I never would have guessed it. It is so painful that for the 1st time I have gone to therepy- I have been married 35 years to a great guy- our daughter thought she had a great guy. His father deserted him when he was 4- his mom always said he never finished anything- He wants sucess and fame and fortune- he just married that- I find myself wanting to cause him harm. My daughter holds their break up against me for “helping ” them.Will my daughter ever recouver from such a jilting- will I???? Will my daughter and I become friends again? Well a guy like this ever suffer from the pain he causes. Oh – he called my husband a few weeks ago to tell us how In Love he is with the new wife- and how they are going to have kids.
My first post – my first public acknowledgment of what happened to me. It’s hard.
The man who hurt me had cheated on his wife since the first years of their two-decade marriage and swore he could never do it again.
When she left him, he found a therapist suggested by a friend of hers. He was given a choice – one who was very business-like or one who would take him on a journey. He took the journey.
When I came into the picture two years later, I started going with him to his sessions at his request. I thought it was so that we could integrate what we were currently doing with what he was still learning. Part of my agreement with him was that he would stay in therapy while I was involved with him.
I had never been in therapy; I was completely unfamiliar with narcissists, sociopaths, or psychopaths. In my ignorance, I thought any of those would be so recognizable and repulsive I would reject them automatically.
I counted on the therapist to know the different personality disorders, though, and deal with them.
The therapist was kind and gentle and encouraged us to stay together. At one point, when I asked, he assured me this man wouldn’t cheat on me (his confident answer surprised me; the fact that the man did cheat months later must have surprised him)
He compared the man to a modern day Zorba the Greek who just loved and lived life to the fullest. He didn’t seem to see any severe disorder. So, he wasn’t prepared to look much deeper when I objected to certain behaviors.
For example, once when we were on a walk, we ran into a couple he and his wife used to know. He didn’t introduce me so I extended my hand to say hello and they barely acknowledged it. I stood silently by for at least 10 to 15 minutes while they engaged in conversation and not one of them made eye contact with me. I felt invisible and ostracized. They were so involved in their talk that when their dog started attacking one of his dogs, not one of them intervened. I had to break it up.
I finally just left and continued the walk we had started. Later he said he was so mad at me for leaving without saying goodbye that he waited an extra five minutes before joining up with me. I was furious at him for being so rude.
Later the therapist suggested, in a very gentle way, that perhaps I should have responded differently such as tapping him lightly on the shoulder and saying “honey, I’m going now.” Not only did this invalidate my instinctive feelings that his behavior was wrong, but also excused his behavior.
This wasn’t the first time something like this at happened; just the latest and it’s something my father does, too. I’ve never liked it and I wouldn’t do it to anyone else. It’s wrong.
I think the therapist should have asked him why he was so thoughtless or if he had a reason for behaving that way. I could only think that the man was just incredibly socially inept; I had no idea it could be a deeper problem.
I asked him myself months later and he struggled to define the feeling that prompted him to do that behavior. He finally said, “I think I don’t want people to think of me as attached.” That’s what a therapist should have uncovered.
I like Dr. L’s idea that a therapist can give a vision of a relationship. That’s what I needed. My internal compass was spinning madly and I couldn’t get my bearings on what was normal or not normal anymore.
My red flags were dismissed by well-intentioned friends and by his unprepared therapist. After a certain point, I couldn’t trust my own instincts and thought I might be expecting too much. I certainly was asking too much from a man who once said “just being in the relationship” was a big thing for him. He also told me he didn’t have to do anything the therapist suggested so it just became a matter of an hour-long chat session about him and feelings, no homework, no assessment, no accountability.
At the same time, apparently, he was on the phone with his friends disparaging me and getting their sympathy, another big issue the therapist didn’t pick up on.
I would want a therapist who could tell me if it was unreasonable to be treated that way in a good relationship and also what a good relationship would look like in comparison.
I’m afraid, though, I would be told “it’s what you think is unreasonable.” In my deepest despair, I needed someone who could anchor me in reality when my own compass wasn’t working because I couldn’t trust myself to know what reality looked like anymore.
This is an older article, but REALLY important. Therapy. Yes? No? Finding a counseling therapist that “gets it?”
Here is a link to an explanation of “shame core.” That simple phrase opened the door to my healing WIDE.
http://www.growingaware.com/NEGCOREBELIEFS.HTM
It’s interesting that it suggests it can trigger some peoples symptoms. When I had an episode of anxiety/depression approx ten years ago I had been reading RD Laing ….double bind effects. Never made the connection but am now wondering whether it was one of the reasons I went slightly over the edge at the time. Trying to sort through stuff I needed “help” with perhaps.
Thanks for the link, TS
Truthspeak, thanks for posting that link….those are good concepts for us to think about.
We all have hundreds of these “core beliefs” that are wrong, things that maybe our parents may not even have intended to convey but did convey…and unless we start to examine these beliefs we don’t really even know that we are acting under their influences.
Good link, thanks again.
Strongawoman what are double blind effects? What connection?