The first question victims of love fraud ask concerns themselves and is generally something like, “Why is this so hard for me mentally?” The second question concerns the perpetrator, “What is wrong with him/her?” Many seek answers to these questions on the internet and in the popular psychology literature. A person looking for answers in these sources is just as likely to read about narcissism as he/she is to read about sociopathy. Thus the confusion between narcissism and sociopathy begins.
When trying to understand the difference (if any) between narcissists and sociopaths, it is important to understand why we have psychiatric diagnoses in the first place. We have diagnostic categories because people go to professionals seeking help for their emotional/psychological issues. The problem is that people who are grandiose, exploit others, lack empathy, and apparently have no conscience are unlikely to seek mental health treatment. Therefore, people with these symptoms are poorly understood. This is also the basic reason why this set of symptoms has been labeled both narcissism and sociopathy.
To further the confusion for victims of love fraud, a psychologist, Millon, has described the amorous narcissist. Such people are charming, articulate, charismatic and emotionally exploitative of their lovers. The amorous narcissist, like Don Juan, seeks conquest in his relationships. A Lovefraud reader commenting on another post has provided the best example of an amorous narcissist I have seen, yet she (correctly) calls him a sociopath:
I was completely taken in by a sociopath over a year ago. I had never met anyone who was so attentive, charming, complimentary, good looking”¦ oh, the list goes on. I felt I had not only met Mr. Right, but Mr. Perfect. This was a very cultured and well educated man. Unlike the stereotypical sociopath, he holds a good job -can even be considered a “captain of industry”. We live in different cities, so it was even easier for him to fool me. He would call me 2-3 times a day – send text messages, write e-mails. I wondered sometimes how he got the time to do all this. But it was almost impossible for ME to get him on the phone. He said he was at a meeting, at a business dinner etc.
He also seemed to not have many good friends. But all the people he mentioned were women – some one who went to the symphony with him – and had for a long time, someone who was a biking partner etc. He said his friendships with these people were built around common interests, which I thought was fair enough.
After 6 months and visits back and forth, his romantic speil was not as effusive, which I thought normal. But I also began noticing a lot of inconsistencies and lies. I caught him out on a lie about where he was – he said he was in one city on work and it turned out that he was in another on vacation – and I knew it had to be with another woman! Anyway, i expressed my distrust and he accused me of being suspicious for no reason. He said I had a mental illness and should have my head examined. I got so blisteringly angry when he said this that I told him that I would prove to him that my suspicions were warranted. I embarked on a detective spree and uncovered 4 women who he was courting the same way. One was the official girlfriend in the city where he lived. The others were mistress-type girlfriends. I spoke with all of them. And then I presented him with the evidence. He did not have much to say other than that he had “done everything for me, shown me a good time, bought me gifts”¦” and did not know why I was upset. I know now that there are others. It is like he needs to get all the women he meets to fall in love with him.
Generally speaking, the term narcissist is less pejorative than the term sociopath. The reason for this is that some professionals view the behavior of narcissists as stemming from “low self esteem.” Thus, people feel sorry for narcissists, “He/she wouldn’t do that if he/she didn’t have such low self esteem.” Many sociopaths also recognize that narcissists are more highly regarded than are sociopaths, and so state, “I’m not a sociopath, I’m just a narcissist!”
A close friend of mine who has been on a quest for answers about the man who perpetrated love fraud against her came to the legitimate conclusion that the perpetrator is a narcissist. We have had many discussions about her situation. What bothered me about her description of this man as a narcissist was that it seemed to be part of an ongoing effort not to accept his inherently evil nature. If perpetrators are only trying to bolster their low self esteem, they can still be “good.” It may also be that it is easier to accept being victimized if the perpetrator is a narcissist. The reality that we have spent years of our lives loving an evil sociopath is truly difficult to accept.
So what is the difference between a narcissist and a sociopath? Generally speaking narcissists are less impulsive and higher functioning than are sociopaths. Both narcissists and sociopaths have a severe disorder of the Inner Triangle. Both are not capable of love, and have problems with moral reasoning. In fact, many experts say that a condition called “pathological narcissism” is the core problem that results in sociopathy/psychopathy. In conclusion then, the answer to our question is, “To a victim of love fraud, there is no difference between a narcissist and a sociopath.”
Dear Dr Leedom
I am afraid to say I’m rather confused about this whole NPD APD thing. From your previous statement,
“A narcissist without the capacity for remorse is a sociopath by definition”
The implication from the above statement is that all sociopaths are therefore narcissists. But when I look at the DSM – 1V criteria for NPD and APD, I see no “delusions of grandeure” associated with APD, only NPD. I’ve always had the impression that narcissism is characterised by a personality split that is created by self hatred. Ultimatley this self hatred and low self-judgement drives the sufferer to invent a fantastical alter ego, the existence of which is supported by third parties (known as Narcissistic supply (NS)). The whole concept of NS or delusions does not seem to enter into the DSM definition of an APD sufferer. This is consistent with my own personal observations of sociopaths and narcissists – the former in my experience are just very nasty people with no capacity for remorse or sympathy, but who do not necessarily have delusions of grandeure or an unrealistic self image. NPD sufferers in contrast to this possess such delusions on top of an already present inability to empathise, love or sympathise. My current understanding of NPD and APD comes largely from reading “malignant self love” by Dr Sam Vaknin. Please correct my understanding if I’ve completely got the wrong end of the stick.
many thanks
I think Sam Vaknin has done a great service with his work. So I have no arguement with his writings specifically.
Look at what sociopaths and psychopaths do and the criteria for these disorders. There is no way for a person to behave this way without being grandiose. Grandiosity is part of the psychoath description. These diagnoses are NOT categories there is much recent research that shows they are a spectrum. As a group, psychopaths and sociopaths score high in narcissism. It is most likely there is a spectrum of severity from narcissist to sociopath to psychopath.
Delusions are not found in people whose only diagnosis is a personality disorder. The grandiosity associated with personality disorders is not of a delusional degree.
There is much research regarding self image/ self esteem in narcissists. While there is a small subgroup of narcissists with low self esteem, narcissists have HIGH NOT LOW self esteem.
Along a similar line of research, many have said that “low self esteem” leads to violence, particularly domestic violence. Again, there is a small sub group where this is the case, but the work of Roy Baumeister shows that it is HIGH self esteem NOT low self esteem that leads to aggression.
So don’t feel sorry for the Ns, Ss or Ps out there. As a group they are not “suffering” with low self esteem or self hatred. Instead, they are basking in their own glory!
Unfortunately for all of us, the mental health profession has not agreed on clear terms and definitions for these personality disorders. What the disorders are called, and what the symptoms are, largely depends on whose book you read.
The psychopath, sociopath, and narcissist personalities are so destructive to others that it would behoove the profession to settle on definitions and diagnoses so the rest of us can learn what to avoid.
Dear Liane and Donna
Thanks for getting back to me. Can you point me towards any good books on NPD/APD and their differences/similarities?
I’m intruiged to hear that narcissists are supposed to have high self esteem, because Sam Vaknin argues the opposite quite compellingly (if I understand correctly, that is) Essentially, he says that high self esteem in arcissists is merely a projected illusion, a compensatory reaction to having no self esteem (or more accurrately, no sense of self at all). Thus, he distinguishes between genuine high self-esteem (which he thinks is advantagous in many ways and which doesn;’t give rise necessarily to malignant nastyness) and the Narcissist’s self esteem, which is essentially a figment of their grandiose alter ego. I suppose I’ve been so willing to listen to this version because it described my father so perfectly. He had absolutely no sense of who he was, no sense of his innate abilities or shortcomings, but only an omnipotent sense of intellectual and moral grandiosity that, at times collapsed leaving him crying like a baby and complaining about how stupid he was and what a victim he was of a cruel and unfair world. This seemed to fit very well with Vaknins analysys, ie that the true self was a self hating loser, and the projected self a deity of dangerous intellectualism moral purity.
And I think his realities were completely dillusional. At one stage he was the chief lawyer championing womens rights and purveying this image of a crusader for their cause, defensing their right to equal pay, lambasting the appalling legislation that lead to their suppression, and meanwhile at home beating my mother, confiscating her posessions and starving her (and the family) of food. The 2 realities never once seemed to cause him any problems at all – so long as people believed he was a crusader then in his eyes he was. There was absolutely no seeming concern for the contradiction of beating my mother and disenfranchising her with the very legislation he would argue against in court. Is this state of being a “knight in shining armour” not delusional? He was similarly involved in the South African Communist party, and often felt he had some special place in history for his role in the “struggle”. However his idea of his roll in it was quite clearly so exagerated and twisted and full of self-importance, that it seemed completely delusional. When I did the daignostic test for NPD on him from Sam Vaknins book, he scored full marks on everything. However, in terms of being sociopathic – he rarely broke the law in a callous or reckless way, he didn’t have strings of lovers or habitually break the law. However when he lived in South Africa he tried to blow up a civilian train with a bomb, which he was very proud of.
Reading your site has made me think about all this again, and for some reason Sam Vaknins writing seems to make more sense, or have fewer contradictions, which is why I’d like to hear and read more about it.
thanks for getting back to me
by the way
I don’t feel sorry for APD’s or NPD’s. For my father I grieve for the little boy before that died in there, but the fact is that a monster is a monster, and they are capable of distinguishing right from wrong, so there is no excuse in the legal (or humanistic) sense of the word. Low self esteem (if you can call it that) is not an excuse for a wrotten soul.
This has been a very long week and a half for me. The last time I was on here, I was sitting at home (what use to be home) with my husband upstairs. On Tuesday, I think 29th? my husband was telling me I was depressed, and that I was having some mental problems. He said he was so concerned. He had me call my doctor, to get some anti-depressents. We got into an argument, silly really. He had to tell me how to put my cat in the cat carrier. I’ve only been doing that for 30 years/ I began crying, told him to just back off, let me breathe, and soon he said he wanted to ” bag it” get a divorce. I threw a few things in a bag, loaded my 3 cats in the car and left. I figured a hotel room for a few days so things could cool off. Next day he called to ask when I would be getting the rest of my things. I got back to the house, he had all of my photos off the wall and in a pile and a my suitcase out. He tried intimidating me so I left in a hurry. I did go to the doctors appt. When I told her all that had been going on, she said to get away from him. She said she would give me anti depressants to help with sleep, but I turned that down. I told her I needed to keep my head about me. I was served divorce papers and a restraining order on Mon AM, that he had filed Thursday at 12:30PM.
So here I sit in a apt, with little furniture and my 3 cats. I sit, knowing that this is the best thing, but hurt so bad I can hardly breath. I have not called him, but he called my daughter, told her that I was losing my mind. He went to my sisters and left a note on her door that he was “worried about me”. And this AM called me to tell me he still loved me, and this is all so rediculous, and keeps denying he filed for divorce, while I stand looking at the papers I was served. Then asks for money. ????????
A question for people out there who have been through this, can you get over the hurt? and can you trust anybody again?
Deep breaths loserchange! Yes, you can heal from this. Learn ALL you can. I had to physically and emotionally and verbally RELEASE the X sociopath. That deep horrible grief for me was in a sense grief for TWO people because he isn’t capable of that. It “just happened” and it was the most painful thing psychologically I have EVER gone through. I finally told myself every single time I felt that bad that I was releasing him to god. I was letting go. I had to ACTIVELY participate in this and it was hard!! I felt like I was getting out of a cult after having been brainwashed and god, I now know why people say how hard that is. IT IS!!! But you CAN do it. You MUST do it.
Now, on the other side of this a bit. Hun, I have NO financial security left at all. I cannot afford to send my son to college…a kid with a learning disability who has worked so hard with me and his tutors that he has made honor roll every year….the sociopath stole our money and now there is no hope for all our future plans.
I KNOW how hard this is……..but, right now despite all he did to me……I am feeling more like my old self again. I HAVE a “self” again that isn’t being mind twisted so much she can’t punch her way out of a paper bag. A lot of that fog is lifted. I can see how horrible and inhuman the past was……..and yes, I am still sad …I am still grieving but, I am GRATEFUL I got out.
And I am grateful YOU are taking these very brave steps for yourself. You will NOT regret it…….the only thing you would end up regretting is going back. Never look back….find resources to help you with this and you will heal and grow. Bless you.
I noticed that sociopaths have a knack for surrounding themselves with what they would consider “important” acquaintances but they never really have any really good friends that they can count on. They don’t really have any good family members they can count on like we can. And they will do a good job alienating us from our loved ones if they can so that their own self-image looks better to us. They use others to make themselves look good and we never see it until it is too late. If someone you know or are getting to know has a real knack for name dropping, run like the wind!! This is a bad sign. They come across as rescuers all the while they are robbing us blind…if they are not robbing our bank accounts, they are robbing us of our good morals, our self-image and our dreams and our relationships we have built with others. My brother once got mad at me and screamed, “they take and they take and you keep on giving…pretty soon they are going to squeeze that sponge until that sponge goes dry Then, where will you be?!” He passed away last October and those words ring in my ears like they were said yesterday!
Mrose, suescov, and others. Thankyou for your kind words and encouragement. Every day that I am away from him, I feel better, but I think, “when he told me this or told me that, how was I so stupid to think it was true”? Just the very thought of him makes me ill. I can’t help but keep looking up public records and trying to dig for the truth about all this property he supposedly owned, and the supposed death of his last wife. For one thing, my attorney told me to dig up everything I could, that along with his other x’s, we may be able to file charges on him. But it is like an obsession. I spend about 3-5 hours a night looking up info and sorting through printed documents. I think, this is so stupid wasting my time on him. Does a sociopath know they are ill? Is that why he refused counciling? Do they actually believe the stories they tell? Has anyone out there actually contacted an ex-spouse, or talked to the sociopaths family members about the problem? And if you did talk to a mom or sister or somebody, did they believe what you were telling them? I can’t believe it’s been 4 weeks already since I moved to this apartment!
loserchooser. You are okay. You are on the path to healing. I still read love fraud everyday. If you need to spend this time LEARNING about what the hell happened to you, then learn. I had an unquenchable appetite for knowledge. can you imagine the poor women who never know what it is that penetrated their souls and must live the rest of their lives with the toxic aftermath of a socio.narc? I thank God too for my intelligence, obsession to understand, and women on this blog. 4 weeks aint nothing, sorry to say, but you GOT OUT. You will feel a variety of unusual surreal emotions, or blankness, or apathy or euphoria….stay in touch with us, because it took me months to not feel like I was living in a wind tunnel or a movie, out of body, faking my life all over again. so I know what you are feeling. Socio’s don’t know they are ill. They think they are God. Mine did. They fear being exposed. But we fear exposing them because you don’t want to suffer their retaliation or look like the crazy one, which they want. I never felt hate before and it’s ugly, but feel it so you can release. The socio/nar lives with the poison of hate in their soul everyday for the rest of their lives. You my friend are free!