The first question victims of love fraud ask concerns themselves and is generally something like, “Why is this so hard for me mentally?” The second question concerns the perpetrator, “What is wrong with him/her?” Many seek answers to these questions on the internet and in the popular psychology literature. A person looking for answers in these sources is just as likely to read about narcissism as he/she is to read about sociopathy. Thus the confusion between narcissism and sociopathy begins.
When trying to understand the difference (if any) between narcissists and sociopaths, it is important to understand why we have psychiatric diagnoses in the first place. We have diagnostic categories because people go to professionals seeking help for their emotional/psychological issues. The problem is that people who are grandiose, exploit others, lack empathy, and apparently have no conscience are unlikely to seek mental health treatment. Therefore, people with these symptoms are poorly understood. This is also the basic reason why this set of symptoms has been labeled both narcissism and sociopathy.
To further the confusion for victims of love fraud, a psychologist, Millon, has described the amorous narcissist. Such people are charming, articulate, charismatic and emotionally exploitative of their lovers. The amorous narcissist, like Don Juan, seeks conquest in his relationships. A Lovefraud reader commenting on another post has provided the best example of an amorous narcissist I have seen, yet she (correctly) calls him a sociopath:
I was completely taken in by a sociopath over a year ago. I had never met anyone who was so attentive, charming, complimentary, good looking”¦ oh, the list goes on. I felt I had not only met Mr. Right, but Mr. Perfect. This was a very cultured and well educated man. Unlike the stereotypical sociopath, he holds a good job -can even be considered a “captain of industry”. We live in different cities, so it was even easier for him to fool me. He would call me 2-3 times a day – send text messages, write e-mails. I wondered sometimes how he got the time to do all this. But it was almost impossible for ME to get him on the phone. He said he was at a meeting, at a business dinner etc.
He also seemed to not have many good friends. But all the people he mentioned were women – some one who went to the symphony with him – and had for a long time, someone who was a biking partner etc. He said his friendships with these people were built around common interests, which I thought was fair enough.
After 6 months and visits back and forth, his romantic speil was not as effusive, which I thought normal. But I also began noticing a lot of inconsistencies and lies. I caught him out on a lie about where he was – he said he was in one city on work and it turned out that he was in another on vacation – and I knew it had to be with another woman! Anyway, i expressed my distrust and he accused me of being suspicious for no reason. He said I had a mental illness and should have my head examined. I got so blisteringly angry when he said this that I told him that I would prove to him that my suspicions were warranted. I embarked on a detective spree and uncovered 4 women who he was courting the same way. One was the official girlfriend in the city where he lived. The others were mistress-type girlfriends. I spoke with all of them. And then I presented him with the evidence. He did not have much to say other than that he had “done everything for me, shown me a good time, bought me gifts”¦” and did not know why I was upset. I know now that there are others. It is like he needs to get all the women he meets to fall in love with him.
Generally speaking, the term narcissist is less pejorative than the term sociopath. The reason for this is that some professionals view the behavior of narcissists as stemming from “low self esteem.” Thus, people feel sorry for narcissists, “He/she wouldn’t do that if he/she didn’t have such low self esteem.” Many sociopaths also recognize that narcissists are more highly regarded than are sociopaths, and so state, “I’m not a sociopath, I’m just a narcissist!”
A close friend of mine who has been on a quest for answers about the man who perpetrated love fraud against her came to the legitimate conclusion that the perpetrator is a narcissist. We have had many discussions about her situation. What bothered me about her description of this man as a narcissist was that it seemed to be part of an ongoing effort not to accept his inherently evil nature. If perpetrators are only trying to bolster their low self esteem, they can still be “good.” It may also be that it is easier to accept being victimized if the perpetrator is a narcissist. The reality that we have spent years of our lives loving an evil sociopath is truly difficult to accept.
So what is the difference between a narcissist and a sociopath? Generally speaking narcissists are less impulsive and higher functioning than are sociopaths. Both narcissists and sociopaths have a severe disorder of the Inner Triangle. Both are not capable of love, and have problems with moral reasoning. In fact, many experts say that a condition called “pathological narcissism” is the core problem that results in sociopathy/psychopathy. In conclusion then, the answer to our question is, “To a victim of love fraud, there is no difference between a narcissist and a sociopath.”
Dear Losechooser… you need to find a new handle because I hate addressing you as that. :o(
I had a hit in my stomach when I read about how your ex was acting after he threw you out.. expressing his concern for you, leaving notes, making you appear as if you are losing it. I just wanted to scream when I read that. The Distortion Campaign. That’s what it is called. I went through this. It made me feel crazy! and upset! very upset! I knew I was being abused but I couldn’t understand why I felt like I was losing my mind and why I felt as though people didn’t believe me and what was happening to me.
It has been 2 years and 17 days since I left the “bad man” as I call him now. I don’t really count but I just passed the anniversary of leaving. He was my dream come true for 2 weeks and then a total nightmare after that. I call the honeymoon phase “relationship crack.” I have never been happier in my life than I was during those too good to be true times. That is how they hook you. Anyway, maybe I will write my story sometime. I have been thinking about that.
What I have found is that reading the postings here on LoveFraud.com has helped me to keep on track. There was a time where I needed to reconfirm for myself over and over that he is a personality disorder dude and that the good times weren’t real. The good times was as much a part of the illness as all the emotional torture that followed. It is so painful to go through something like this and the recovery is slow. First, you have to get out all the poisen they have put in your head. Then you start to rebuild. I have gone through the same things others have noted here. At times, I feel dead inside. I am afraid of people now, especially nice men who I am afraid will turn bad any minute. Now I am rebuilding my self. There isn’t an area of my life that wasn’t broken.
Hang in there and congratulations on getting out. This is the right place for you. I understand your obsession with research and stressing on it all constantly. I did that too. I think because it’s such a nightmare and we have a desire to figure it out. But, you will need the framework provided here to understand what happened. Also, I have found that something like this is hard to get people to understand. You have a community here that totally gets it. You don’t have to explain and we won’t ask “why?” or “how could you?”
This is your recovery place. Welcome.
Good luck! You are on the other side of this thing. Don’t look back. Just keep going. Things will get better. I am talking to myself too. :o)
From AlohaTraveler
It’s good to see that it’s now being recognized that Narcissists, Sociopaths, Psychopaths have excessively HiGH self-esteem. For so many years I’ve been so weary of hearing semi-educated “do-gooders” attributing the atrocious behavior of “bullies” to the person’s LOW self-esteem. It’s been my observation that, all too often, they are individuals with a grandiose sense of self. For these people, I have no sympathy whatsoever.
Flopsy
I am thinking about you. As I said in another blog I used to be sallycos. Went through the divorce and am blessed becuase my parents are financially helping me. I wrote a pretty detailed thing in one of the blogs about what happened to me. I am thinking of you. Hope you are doing okay. I am trying to heal too.
The key difference between the person I believe was a Narcissist (called so by a psychiatrist), is that he would never humiliate himself the way psychopaths do. He definitely had signs of FEELING embarrassment. Psychopaths seem to feel no embarrassment when they’re caught in a lie, etc. The narcissist I knew also seemed to learn from mistakes, which psychopaths almost never do it seems.
This guy wasn’t calculating, but not really cold like a pscyhopath.
And yet he fit the criteria for NPD exactly.
Mind you, if it comes to “Will he change?” By no means think a narcissist will change. They don’t change either. That’s one of the first things I read about narcissism. They don’t change. So in that sense, in a relationship, it doesn’t matter which the person is.
Sorry, I meant to say he WAS calculating, but not really cold like a psychopath.
My ex acts embarrassed, but typically inappropriately. I can say that about most of the emotions he displays.
We could be in a public place talking about the kids and he’ll look around like can anyone see how crazy I am? I’d be talking low key and kindly, giving him my most calm and reasonable demeanor, and couldn’t understand why he would be looking embarrassed.
One time, we were shopping; I had a broken finger and was pushing the baby in the cart. The baby grabbed my finger and twisted it, trying to get the bandage off. It hurt so bad, I gritted my teeth, wide eyed, and said ‘take him’ but had kind of a grin and a joking posture because what I felt, stronger than the pain, was delight at my baby’s healthy curiosity. It should have been a shared giggle and pass the buck moment, with a little concern for my wellbeing, but my ex looked around horrified like he was looking to see if anyone was looking at the crazy woman. He kind of coward where he stood like he was under attack
No one was, or ever is, looking or gawking when he pulls this. I don’t believe he actually feels embarrassed. I think he fakes it as a manipulation tactic. So, narcissist or sociopath??? I think the latter.
Movingon, I want to post my experience here, and while I have not yet done so, I read yours, and what you have said, sounds exactly what I would like to post. There are many similiarites. I have also been through hell in the past year or so with someone I thought really loved me, but when he met someone else, he discarded me like an object, and I found myself in a state of shock and disbelief for months on end. We lived together for 13 years too! I will post my story. I would really like input. It’s so hard to put it all into perspective.
All, our stories contain so many similar if not identical details that it’s clear the NPD diagnosis in DSM 1V is right on. A couple of things to share that I found helpful since the catastrophic entry and exit of my N is the discovery of something called “Narcissists Victims Syndrome”, found in a nursing journal of health dated 2004. She gives ER and other doctors the symptoms to look for of NPD victims, and the litany needn’t be laid out here, we’re all living examples. What’s helpful though is realizing the VICTIMS are finally getting some attention, rather than NPD’s who’ve been explored and written about in possibly billions of words since the DSM first spotted and categorized them.
The second thing is that in 2004 when “Our” couples therapist delivered her diagnosis of my NPD to me, she went into detail about how I was suffering from post traumatic stress disorder–and I see that very clearly manifest in the blogs here, over and again. Even if the N has been gone for 5 years, nightmares persist, people suddenly feel the need to blog again about their trauma. It’s very disturbing, and it probably helps to acknowledge that it IS PTSD that drives us back to this site for insights and a sense of clarity and actually, community with other sufferers.
The last thought (for the mo) on this: I haven’t seen a lot of talk about the correlation between the NPD and a co-morbid substance addiction, but the DSM 1V does clearly link the 2: 50-75% of NPD’s have a co-morbid addiction diagnosis…BUT, not the reverse for diagnosed addicts, i.e. 75% of addicts are NOT NPD. It’s been amazing to find others insights here while realizing and reliving but also getting strength from what’s gone on in others’ lives. I had a paralegal in my attny’s office say to me the other day in a quiet flat tone: “Look: you’ve been TORTURED for years by this gorgeous, perfect Monster (who looks like the prez of the Rotary club, better yet John Edwards, and could no doubt give Edwards a run for his money)….So what if he’s moved next door with his new 30 year old girlfriend in the same golf course community you’ve lived in for years. That which does not kill you strengthens you…” Of course, she’s right and I am moving on, and continue to, but the healing process…sometimes tough. What amazes me most is that people, outsiders, just don’t GET IT. They think that if you’re still processing/recovering/healing after a 5 year relationship with one of these beasts, it’s somehow because you still LOVE this Godforsaken (yes) creature. How would that even be possible? Quite the contrary: It’s the utter devastation that takes time to process and recover from. But I’m a realist: I still have nightmares about him after 7 months, and that may go on, now and then, for a long time….Every day brings the promise of being restored to complete sanity….Peace….TW
Please this is urgent. I feel so helpless. My daughter has been estranged from my family for 12 years. My son has just recently managed to convince her to come home. She did and what a nightmare. She has 4 children and has lived in hell. We were so happy to have them. They were enrolled in a new school, afterschool programs and park sports doing great without HIM. He promised her he would support her choice and things would work out with the kids. This madmad stole the kids filed a Restraining order and lied about her abusing the kids and him. He went to Legal Aid (domestic Violence) and got an attorney. We hired a paralegal. The judge must have listened a little. he did remove the restraining order and gave them both joint custody while they wait for an evaluation. In the meantime the children are being abused, made to lie just like him. What can be done in a situation like this. I feel crazy.
While I have no idea if there is a difference I know the devastation of constant infidelity causes. I was married to my husband for 7 years. I was thrilled he had “chosen” me and so deeply in love. Looking back on it I suppose the warning signs were there and I must have chosen not to see them. He is always the life of the party, he is liked by many and he is a cheat and a liar. We were seperated 6 times before finally being divorced. It has taken me 3 years to finally put it all in perspective and let it go. 70% of this man is fun and its great to be with him, its the other 30% however that is truely evil………. I know of 11 women he was with during our marriage and that is probably the tip of the iceberg. We have a son together and remain in constant contact because of this. I have developed a friendship with him that allows me to be free from the burden of his evil side. Now however there is a problem. He has “fallen in love” yet again with his “dream” blond, wealthy woman who has just divorced her husband. She seems nice and in other circumstances someone I would like to know. They have been trying to hide their relationship (not well enough I guess) and are now planning on marriage. She is deeply in love with him just as I was all those years ago. She believes he is faithful to her – he is absolutely not! I have released myself from any burden of responsibility for this man when it comes to his relaionships and I am not his keeper. However it is hard to stand by and know yet another woman is going to be devastated and suffer such immense pain. How do I come to terms with that?