The first question victims of love fraud ask concerns themselves and is generally something like, “Why is this so hard for me mentally?” The second question concerns the perpetrator, “What is wrong with him/her?” Many seek answers to these questions on the internet and in the popular psychology literature. A person looking for answers in these sources is just as likely to read about narcissism as he/she is to read about sociopathy. Thus the confusion between narcissism and sociopathy begins.
When trying to understand the difference (if any) between narcissists and sociopaths, it is important to understand why we have psychiatric diagnoses in the first place. We have diagnostic categories because people go to professionals seeking help for their emotional/psychological issues. The problem is that people who are grandiose, exploit others, lack empathy, and apparently have no conscience are unlikely to seek mental health treatment. Therefore, people with these symptoms are poorly understood. This is also the basic reason why this set of symptoms has been labeled both narcissism and sociopathy.
To further the confusion for victims of love fraud, a psychologist, Millon, has described the amorous narcissist. Such people are charming, articulate, charismatic and emotionally exploitative of their lovers. The amorous narcissist, like Don Juan, seeks conquest in his relationships. A Lovefraud reader commenting on another post has provided the best example of an amorous narcissist I have seen, yet she (correctly) calls him a sociopath:
I was completely taken in by a sociopath over a year ago. I had never met anyone who was so attentive, charming, complimentary, good looking”¦ oh, the list goes on. I felt I had not only met Mr. Right, but Mr. Perfect. This was a very cultured and well educated man. Unlike the stereotypical sociopath, he holds a good job -can even be considered a “captain of industry”. We live in different cities, so it was even easier for him to fool me. He would call me 2-3 times a day – send text messages, write e-mails. I wondered sometimes how he got the time to do all this. But it was almost impossible for ME to get him on the phone. He said he was at a meeting, at a business dinner etc.
He also seemed to not have many good friends. But all the people he mentioned were women – some one who went to the symphony with him – and had for a long time, someone who was a biking partner etc. He said his friendships with these people were built around common interests, which I thought was fair enough.
After 6 months and visits back and forth, his romantic speil was not as effusive, which I thought normal. But I also began noticing a lot of inconsistencies and lies. I caught him out on a lie about where he was – he said he was in one city on work and it turned out that he was in another on vacation – and I knew it had to be with another woman! Anyway, i expressed my distrust and he accused me of being suspicious for no reason. He said I had a mental illness and should have my head examined. I got so blisteringly angry when he said this that I told him that I would prove to him that my suspicions were warranted. I embarked on a detective spree and uncovered 4 women who he was courting the same way. One was the official girlfriend in the city where he lived. The others were mistress-type girlfriends. I spoke with all of them. And then I presented him with the evidence. He did not have much to say other than that he had “done everything for me, shown me a good time, bought me gifts”¦” and did not know why I was upset. I know now that there are others. It is like he needs to get all the women he meets to fall in love with him.
Generally speaking, the term narcissist is less pejorative than the term sociopath. The reason for this is that some professionals view the behavior of narcissists as stemming from “low self esteem.” Thus, people feel sorry for narcissists, “He/she wouldn’t do that if he/she didn’t have such low self esteem.” Many sociopaths also recognize that narcissists are more highly regarded than are sociopaths, and so state, “I’m not a sociopath, I’m just a narcissist!”
A close friend of mine who has been on a quest for answers about the man who perpetrated love fraud against her came to the legitimate conclusion that the perpetrator is a narcissist. We have had many discussions about her situation. What bothered me about her description of this man as a narcissist was that it seemed to be part of an ongoing effort not to accept his inherently evil nature. If perpetrators are only trying to bolster their low self esteem, they can still be “good.” It may also be that it is easier to accept being victimized if the perpetrator is a narcissist. The reality that we have spent years of our lives loving an evil sociopath is truly difficult to accept.
So what is the difference between a narcissist and a sociopath? Generally speaking narcissists are less impulsive and higher functioning than are sociopaths. Both narcissists and sociopaths have a severe disorder of the Inner Triangle. Both are not capable of love, and have problems with moral reasoning. In fact, many experts say that a condition called “pathological narcissism” is the core problem that results in sociopathy/psychopathy. In conclusion then, the answer to our question is, “To a victim of love fraud, there is no difference between a narcissist and a sociopath.”
Dear MeToo,
Welcome to Love Fraud.
The only thing I can tell you is that she will NOT believe you. He has her in the “love bomb” stage of the relationship so that you could have a video of him raping Mother Teresa and it would not make her believe it.
She will have to learn on her own just as you did.
Oh, BTW, saying he his “great” 70% of the time is like saying a man is a “great guy when he isn’t raping and murdering young boys” (John Wayne Gacy) Nah, they are NEVER “nice” except when it suits their purposes, they are EVIL 100% of the time, they just cover it up part of the time.
Glad you are here, this is a great place for learning both about them, and about ourselves. Again, welcome! God bless.
MeToo,
Hello and welcome to Lovefraud. We have discussed the issue of warning the next victim. It is difficult, because, as OxDrover said, while the target is under the “magic spell,” they often don’t believe the words of the ex. The guy, I’m sure, it telling the woman some version of you are crazy, bitter, paranoid, vindictive, etc etc, to set her up not to believe you.
However, I have heard of cases in which the next target listened to the warning and got out. I have also heard of cases in which the target remembered the warning when she started seeing bad behavior from the guy. So sometimes it does work – although you never know.
I like to suggest that you at least try to warn, if you can do it safely. If the new target doesn’t listen, that’s on her. At least you tried.
Here’s an article we posted on this issue. You might want to read it and the discussion that follows.
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2007/12/11/should-i-warn-the-sociopaths-next-victim/
Perhaps, there is a bleed through on the personality types and disorders.. is just isn’t that clear cut..in some ways they can be put into categories but not all..
Mine was had delusions of grandeur .. they have dead souls are want to kill those around them..
He always talked about the light in my eyes… all the time…
but he dimmed my light… he wanted to take my soul.. but I was too strong..
Be strong and take care of yourself…
My understanding is this: All sociopaths are also narcissists, but not all narcissists are sociopaths.
In general, I think, the N is more about image and creating a false self. Hence, their enormous ego’ and lies about how wonderful they are. They brag, and love the spot light. Everything is always, me, me, me. They’re envious to the core.
Sociopaths are more manipulative and conniving. They care less what you think of them, they don’t care nearly as much about their image. I say this because they don’t seem to feel much shame if they’re caught in lies. They think of others as targets or marks, and use people mercilessly. I don’t think the narcissist thinks about other people much, at all except as fans, or as an audence for his greatness. Just my observations. But either way, being in a relationship with either is like being bled dry. So it doesn’t make much difference. They both suck.
How to separate healthy self-esteem and healthy optimism from psyhcosis? (And I apologoze for my typos is some of my posts.. I type so fast and am not checking before post…stupid…)
That is what ‘got’ me with mine.. My Dad said that he was foing to do things and he did them.. really great things.. And I think that his example has made me susceptible to men that make statements of things that they plan to accomplish. But the men don’t .. they are cons.. so how to distinguish.. many have ideas, plans that they work on and so come to fruition..
and the guy I was with, it had elements of possibility and he worked really hard.. and I was the only women in his life.. he was not a cheater.. he was just arrogant, delusional, controlling, sickening sweet at times, critical, needy and more…
but he had some things in his past they made his business deals appear possible.. excpet that he was almost totally broke.. but again, people can be broke and re emerge in success.. How can you really tell?
and yes, my father has some narcissist traits.. and he was once an alcoholic and he wasn’t the perfect father or husband to my mother.. but he did what he said, and took good care of his family. And this is what I can’t bring to me.. I bring men that are mostly talk.. not all bad, but use me on some level so that I am left in lack without love, material things or whatever it was that they promised in the beginning. They take from me and they blame me.. but one husband because I kicked him out, sobbered up and thanked me and we are friends.
But I marry and date the charismatic cons.. they see something in me that they like and come after me.. And they try to use me and my family and I always make them appear better than they are.. this last one was the most down and out, but elegant appearing one that I have ever been with…and he came across like a giver.. while he was getting exactly what he needed and I felt in lack the whole time.. even as he told me constantly that he loved me .. I didn’t feel love from him..
I tend to trust what people say.. because when I say something I am telling the truth..I have come to see that most use words to manipulate.. I am rambling here..
BUt I have come to realize that the guard should be up at all times until you see by actions who the person actually is and this is over time that you trust..
And never move fast EVER! And if someone tries to get you to move fast.. slow it down and if they leave .. they would’ve anyway..
men use the ‘love’ word, the compliments, the marriage promise to hook a woman in.. They know what does it.. and it takes nothing to act the part.. contrive the part.. that is one thing I was able to see so clear from reading these posts. How my last guy was so contrived.. the flowers every Friday.. the robotic way that he romanced me..that is why it felt so false, it was false. It was an act. A well-rehearsed act. Men also, talke about money, success and business because a woman wants to be with a man that can support her… they know what to do and say… it is up to the woman to see past what he says…
You are right, donna, once in a while they DO listen, but so many times (most?) you are right, the P has primed them so that they think you are crazy and “the woman scorned” so that it actually “proves” to them that he was truthful because you come off looking like you are what he said you were.
I myself have NOT listened to warnings about people who turned out to be cons or Ps (or both) in business relationships etc. I DO LISTEN NOW though, for what that’s worth! LOL
And again, it depends on what the potential for violence is, and so on, if the guy was a potential murderer, yep I’d probably try to warn the next victim, but without a lot of expectation for success.
Wow, I’m so thrilled to find this site. You just don’t know how this validates the feelings and struggles I’ve had for the last four years. I’ve had tons of counseling and have read lots of books and articles, but just to see that my “Lifetime Movie” marriage is not hugely uncommon is so very interesting.
My ex and I grew up in the same small town. We were like Barbie and Ken…expected to marry and live happily ever after. I watched him grow from a very nice guy into a predator and a very evil person in just a few years. After our child was born he started a new wonderful job in a bank and quickly climbed the ladder to success. I put him through law school as he became distant and harsh and wouldn’t touch me. I found out he was bragging at work about secretaries’ children being his. One of his secretaries divorced her husband to sneak around with mine in sleazy motels and the whole time he was telling her that I carried a gun in my diaper bag, etc. I met and befriended her, she started fainting at work, they both got fired, and she moved away. He begged and cried and we did major counseling for a year and I dropped the divorce proceedings thinking he was well. Over the next two or three years he was nice and took my calls at work, came home for supper, etc, but gradually grew distant and harsh again. I found out in ’04 that he had a 10-12 yr affair with another secretary from his new position as COO of a publicly traded banking company AND a woman in every port city from here to Beijing. He had been hiding his money all this time, so that when he was caught he would not have to share. He bought all his mistresses suits, jewelry, even paid for one’s house, while I had to pay utilities, my own food, my own insurance, car payment…everything from my teacher salary. He kept me literally broke while he was making almost half a million per yr and telling me we had no money because he was reinvesting it all in the company. If I wanted 200 for Christmas presents, he made me postdate a check for January, and he wouldn’t let go of his check until I let go of mine. There was no intimacy for more than 15 yrs. He lied all day every day, but the strange thing was that he turned very dark. He would leave butcher knives out on the counter facing the stairs where I came down in the morning. I found out his mistress was the one who had been phone stalking me for 7 or 8 yrs, and their phone records were like 25 or 30 calls to each other every day, even though they worked side by side. At the same time he had many other young mistresses and kept them all ignorant of each other. After he was caught and we separated, he cried and became perfect all over again for a year counseling with the Greats, then got caught at a sleazy motel with someone again. I could tell that someone was breaking into my house while I was at the gym. He brought me Ultimate Woman vitamin pills with the seal broken and some missing! I found an empty Viagra box in his vanity drawer. This guy has 150 IQ. Someone was hacking into my bank records online, and I left tape recorders at the house to see what was going on there while I was out. On the phone from the house to women, he sounded like a dirty old man, talking naughty and naked and nasty. I wouldn’t have believed it was him. One day he would cry and hug the stuffing out of me apologizing, and the next day he was rude and hateful and couldn’t remember he had apologized. I knew my life was in danger and I had to change the locks etc. I had to tape record every conversation during separation and divorce proceedings, because he lied so much to attorneys, etc, that you couldn’t prove anything without recordings. He had NO concern for our son’s feelings in any of this. The mistresses’ children grew up with him sneaking in through the fence to sleep with mommy, and the first one’s kids were calling him Daddy too. He found out this mistress aborted his child, and he doesn’t care. He told me one time during the proceedings “the girlfriend knows I do what I want and I get what I want, and she’s fine with that.” Children’s feelings are unimportant, but he is wining and dining our son now, like we’re in a contest….climbing the pyramids in Egypt….took him to the Great Wall of China…fly fishing in the Grand Canyon, etc. Bought a barge and stocks it with bongs and booze for my son’s friends, etc. ‘No regard for the kids….it’s all about him and winning.
My interest in cases like this is, where do you draw the line? When do you bring in the attorneys and police and IRS? What about the children? If he’s been hiding money for years in other countries, are you just supposed to forget and forgive and move on. I’ve had the hardest time with that. God is so good to me, but when I start to recall all the craziness, I get shaky and lose sleep and I just can’t really go there anymore. I want to protect others from this victimization and I don’t want to be vindictive, but then again, I don’t want him hurting other young women. I would not doubt that he might be one of these trafficking guys. Did you know most of the WORLD’S trafficking is financed by middle-aged American businessmen? We need to wake up and do something quickly. This American businessman/sociopath/narcissist/predator thing is getting out of hand.
Hello Dawn H. and welcome to LF. Jeez, this man does not even sound human, just awful, sorry you went through all this, you sound very strong in your post… wanting to help others. How old is your son? I can’t stand how they try to “win” over the children… I guess the line would depend on how old your son is… does he know what his father is? It sounds like your divorce is final so I don’t really know what you can do about money he is hiding in other countries, maybe he is trafficking, the IRS sounds pretty good at this point!!!!
Anyway, am I just babbling on and on? I just wanted you to know I am out here and you are in my thoughts. Looks like a quiet night here on this board, it’s 11pm where I am. Thank you very much for sharing your story, I’m glad you found this site, lots of good people here, they have all really helped me alot.
Dear Dawn,
Welcome to LF. I know you have a “million questions” and I can’t answer them, but I do suggest that to start to answer them you go to the archives here (by subject/author as the monthly archives only go back a yr.) and read every article here (save the comments for later) but get the education you need on two subjects, WHAT A PSYCHO PATH IS AND secondly, how we heal.
Then you can find your OWN answers to those questions.
I’m glad you are here, keep on reading keep on learnin, KNOWLEDGE=POWER. Take back your power! God BLESS