The first question victims of love fraud ask concerns themselves and is generally something like, “Why is this so hard for me mentally?” The second question concerns the perpetrator, “What is wrong with him/her?” Many seek answers to these questions on the internet and in the popular psychology literature. A person looking for answers in these sources is just as likely to read about narcissism as he/she is to read about sociopathy. Thus the confusion between narcissism and sociopathy begins.
When trying to understand the difference (if any) between narcissists and sociopaths, it is important to understand why we have psychiatric diagnoses in the first place. We have diagnostic categories because people go to professionals seeking help for their emotional/psychological issues. The problem is that people who are grandiose, exploit others, lack empathy, and apparently have no conscience are unlikely to seek mental health treatment. Therefore, people with these symptoms are poorly understood. This is also the basic reason why this set of symptoms has been labeled both narcissism and sociopathy.
To further the confusion for victims of love fraud, a psychologist, Millon, has described the amorous narcissist. Such people are charming, articulate, charismatic and emotionally exploitative of their lovers. The amorous narcissist, like Don Juan, seeks conquest in his relationships. A Lovefraud reader commenting on another post has provided the best example of an amorous narcissist I have seen, yet she (correctly) calls him a sociopath:
I was completely taken in by a sociopath over a year ago. I had never met anyone who was so attentive, charming, complimentary, good looking”¦ oh, the list goes on. I felt I had not only met Mr. Right, but Mr. Perfect. This was a very cultured and well educated man. Unlike the stereotypical sociopath, he holds a good job -can even be considered a “captain of industry”. We live in different cities, so it was even easier for him to fool me. He would call me 2-3 times a day – send text messages, write e-mails. I wondered sometimes how he got the time to do all this. But it was almost impossible for ME to get him on the phone. He said he was at a meeting, at a business dinner etc.
He also seemed to not have many good friends. But all the people he mentioned were women – some one who went to the symphony with him – and had for a long time, someone who was a biking partner etc. He said his friendships with these people were built around common interests, which I thought was fair enough.
After 6 months and visits back and forth, his romantic speil was not as effusive, which I thought normal. But I also began noticing a lot of inconsistencies and lies. I caught him out on a lie about where he was – he said he was in one city on work and it turned out that he was in another on vacation – and I knew it had to be with another woman! Anyway, i expressed my distrust and he accused me of being suspicious for no reason. He said I had a mental illness and should have my head examined. I got so blisteringly angry when he said this that I told him that I would prove to him that my suspicions were warranted. I embarked on a detective spree and uncovered 4 women who he was courting the same way. One was the official girlfriend in the city where he lived. The others were mistress-type girlfriends. I spoke with all of them. And then I presented him with the evidence. He did not have much to say other than that he had “done everything for me, shown me a good time, bought me gifts”¦” and did not know why I was upset. I know now that there are others. It is like he needs to get all the women he meets to fall in love with him.
Generally speaking, the term narcissist is less pejorative than the term sociopath. The reason for this is that some professionals view the behavior of narcissists as stemming from “low self esteem.” Thus, people feel sorry for narcissists, “He/she wouldn’t do that if he/she didn’t have such low self esteem.” Many sociopaths also recognize that narcissists are more highly regarded than are sociopaths, and so state, “I’m not a sociopath, I’m just a narcissist!”
A close friend of mine who has been on a quest for answers about the man who perpetrated love fraud against her came to the legitimate conclusion that the perpetrator is a narcissist. We have had many discussions about her situation. What bothered me about her description of this man as a narcissist was that it seemed to be part of an ongoing effort not to accept his inherently evil nature. If perpetrators are only trying to bolster their low self esteem, they can still be “good.” It may also be that it is easier to accept being victimized if the perpetrator is a narcissist. The reality that we have spent years of our lives loving an evil sociopath is truly difficult to accept.
So what is the difference between a narcissist and a sociopath? Generally speaking narcissists are less impulsive and higher functioning than are sociopaths. Both narcissists and sociopaths have a severe disorder of the Inner Triangle. Both are not capable of love, and have problems with moral reasoning. In fact, many experts say that a condition called “pathological narcissism” is the core problem that results in sociopathy/psychopathy. In conclusion then, the answer to our question is, “To a victim of love fraud, there is no difference between a narcissist and a sociopath.”
Tho I don’t disagree with Aha here:
“These men spread deadly stds and deadly aids and women will not find the suavay amorous narcissistic sociopath so easy to forgive when she is diagnosed with a life threatening std. These men are deadly frauds, felons and murderers, they murder by spreading stds surreptistiously. I believe that, murder by std spreading, is the core of thier onion, the true goal of the amourous narcissistic sociopath”.
I chose to believe the current medical facts that HIV is not the death sentence it once was.. That said, It is still TOTALLY STOOPID to have unprotected sex with these people. The problem is sometimes we DON’T KNOW they can’t be trusted!!
Living with HIV, Herpes, HPV is a prison sentence. Someone here said once they have chosen to live as a celibate after a diagnosis because they could not tolerate the disclosures. To me, that is so SAD. A partner free life because of a roll in the hay. God have mercy on us who did NOT KNOW!! I pray everyday that I am clean. Some STD’s can’t be diagnosed. They just show up one day.
But now I know and I will do everything in my power to support those whom I feel are being victimized.
My prayers are with all here on this site looking for answers, relief, comfort, peace. I am thinking about Dr. Emodo’s book “Love and Gratitude” about the body being made up of water crystals and how those crystals are affected by our state of mind. The photos of the crystals after prayer are awesomely beautiful and healthy! The crystals photographed while the subject is disturbed are ugly and disordered.
I choose Love and Gratitute and in this I hope to find my healing.
God Bless everyone here. (((((LOVE AND HUGS))))).
Dear Adamsrib,
While HIV may not be the immediate death sentence that it once was, it is STILL a terrible disease. Even HPV can kill or disable children that are born to mothers with it if it gets into the lungs or vocal cords of those babies (I personally know some children with this condition, it is awful. They are only “fortunate” they didn’t also get it in the lungs and die)
Condoms or “safer sex” do not prevent all STDS—remember the old joke, “What do you call people who use condoms for birth control? PARENTS!!!” So there is no such thing as “totally safe sex” except between two people who are not infected and NOT having sex with others with or without condoms. HPV and Herpes and Hepatitis are several of the diseases transmitted sexually that can fairly easily be transmitted with or without a condom, during any kind of intimate contact even without sexual intercourse actually taking place.
I may have a “partner free life”—but when you think about it, we could ALL have a “partner” if we would LOWER OUR STANDARDS ENOUGH.
I could be married tonight if I wanted to be, I could go down to the wino shelter and pick myself out any one I wanted. But just lowering my standards so that I could have a “partner” isn’t what I am about. No one likes sex more than I do I think, but at the same time, it is only meaningful to ME when it is a bonding ritual between me and a man I love and trust and I trust is not having sex with others. So “partner free” until I find the one man I love and that I trust—if I ever do find such a man again. But I’m not going to settle for less than such a man. “Partner free” is JUST FINE WITH ME. Beats the heck out of a psychopathic partner. LOL
ps and even before I would engage in sex or intimate contact with ANY man I would insist on a complete STD evaluation for both of us. Any positive findings for things that couldn’t’ be cured with a penicillian shot in the butt would have to be discussed in light of the potential health risk to myself. I might love him a great deal, but that doesn’t mean I want to expose myself to something that might kill me it would just have to be assessed on a case by case basis.
Ox:
You get a hearty AMEN SISTER from this section!!!
By “partner free” I don’t mean sex partner. I mean a life’s partner. Someone who is committed, caring, and kind and that takes TIME. I know as women, we all want that. But hey, we probably all want an all expenses paid trip to Europe, or to win the lottery or a cure for cancer etc.
I think it is so sad that we may miss out on that hope because we were STOOPID or just plain unaware. Sad, sad, sad, IMO. This is where my faith has to come in. Without it I would be an emotional goner.
Asking for papers seems kind of extreme but it makes sense. I wonder how many people actually do that?
Grey rocked the boogey man in the gym today. He insists at coming at my time so he is now a potted plant. I worry that it will fuel him even more. I guess I will have to deal with it when it comes. I thought his ego would not allow him to come back for more. I was wrong. It is exactly that -HIS EGO-that is egging him on to WIN. I am not flattered just bothered by it. I don’t want to cave. When I feel weak I think of that STD thang and that does it!!
I am so grateful for the support on this site. Thanks!! 🙂
Dear Adamsrib,
If you have to, turn and look at him with utter contempt, and say something along the line of, “Can you just NOT take NO for an answer? I AM NOT INTERESTED IN YOU!” Say it loud enough that others in the area can hear and then walk off. Then go back to the potted plant treatment,, and/or change times.
BOUNDARIES! You do NOT have to let him take control of the situation. BE FIRM, and offensive if necessary to ward him off. I think there will be some point he will get the message.
If that doesn’t work, go to management and tell them that he is harassing you and have them talk to him, that ought to embarass him enough for him to get the message. If that doesn’t stop him, change gyms and they should refund your contract or whatever, because they are responsible for keeping you safe and no molested by other patrons.
GET THAT BACK BONE growing some steel gurl! You can do it!
ps “asking for papers”—you wouldn’t buy a dog without some assurance it was healthy and wasn’t likely to give you or your other animals diseases, so why should you “buy” a sexual partner without at least the same assurances.
Back when I was buying bulls for my herd. I bought only VIRGIN bulls (believe it or not there are cow-STDs) and I put him in quarentine for 90 days and had him tested for every disease known to mortal bovine. Cost a fortune but I couldn’t afford to have 50 mama cows with STD caused abortions because I got some bull that was infected!
I love my cows, but believe me, I love myself more! Now I only have 3 cows so we do “incest,” but none of the offspring are going to be sold for breeding so I really don’t care if they have 2 heads or 5 legs–at some point there will be a year when no one has a male calf to be “incested” with, but that’s okay, with only 3 cows left it isn’t like I’ll be financially ruined and I’ll have to make other arrangements but for now, incest serves the purpose!
RE: papers
That is one argument I can not even attempt to debate 🙂 Whoa!
I think if I get angry and make threats, he will know he has won. It is so much better if I just ignore him. He is looking mighty foolish in front of the guys (and the women he so likes to flirt with) because he is after all A POTTED PLANT 🙂 instead of the Don Juan he likes to project. The stupid look on his face when I refuse to interact is worth GOLD to me because I know I have the upper hand. Look at it like a figurative skillet KERPOW every time I grey rock him. It is rich…
I don’t want to change gyms because the one in question is for seniors and it is ridiculously cheap. If I really feel he has become a threat I would refuse to go. I will change my workout time accordingly if it continues. I don’t want to start a war in my community. We are a community there at the senior center. He has a lot of peeps and so do I and many are the same peeps. And like I said I am so FREAKED OUT by the idea of STDs that he WILL NOT come near me ever again. I SWEAR TO GOD.
Don’t worry Oxy and thank you. Remember, he is 20 years older than me with one foot on the banana peel. All it would take is a slight nudge and…. 🙂
I’m glad you wouldn’t argue with me about the papers! LOL I’d have to shoot you down on that one! And that is the funny thing, so many people will crawl into bed with some guy/gal they hardly know and play RUSSIAN ROULETTE with germs!
It has been so long since we have seen people die in this country from INFECTIONS that I think we as a country have literally forgotten what the possibilities are. It is like people who refuse to vaccinate their kids because a PSYCHOPATHIC PHYSICIAN IN BRITAIN who has since been DEFROCKED put out a PHONY STUDY saying the vaccines might cause autism (when he was trying to get the current vaccines “out lawed” so HIS VACCINE WOULD PREVAIL) He has since been proven a fake, his “research” was FAKE and vaccines do not cause autism and are not even linked to them. Yet, there is a whole group of people who STILL BELIEVE in that and don’t vaccinate their kids.
There are 9 kids who have died of whooping cough in California in this YEAR ALONE, and if you have ever seen a child (usually an infant) struggling to breathe with this you will get your kid VACCINATED 3 X! (I’ve only seen films but they are TERRIBLE–haunting)
YES, IT CAN HAPPEN TO YOU! BE CAREFUL–because Oxy is paranoid, if no other reason!
Folks, GERMS can kill!
Hi
I’m not particularly comfortable labelling people as any type of personality. However, I think when you are driven to seek answers to an experience you have had that leaves you feeling somehow mentally and emotionally violated, you can’t help it. It’s some small solace to discover that what you experienced wasn’t something you did, or you made happen, or that you may have been wrong.
I was so bewildered, confused, lost, and riddled with doubts about my own ability to validate what I had experienced I found myself searching, searching, searching for hours at a time, just trying to find something, anything, that would help me from the pain I felt.
I have been in break ups before. My marriage broke down after nine years, it was devastating, I was heartbroken – but I didn’t come out of that relationship feeling anything like I did after meeting this subsequent man. Mr Charm, I call him. I didn’t pore over websites trying find an explanation for why my marriage broke down. I was very clear about what had happened. We were both very sad about what happened. There was a lot of pain and heartbreak and it took a long time to recover. But it was normal to feel that way.
Not like this. Not an empty shell of the woman I had once been. Not suffering from anxiety to such extremes I was on medication. I was like a drug addict, and he was my fix. I couldn’t get enough of him, but at the same time it was a constant emotional rollercoaster from one day to the next. He made me feel the most wonderful woman in the world for months. I was valued. He made me feel the most worthless individual in the world. I was devalued. Up down, push, pull. You name it, he was good at it. All quietly done – he didn’t rage. He was classy, cool, intellectual, witty, well educated, slightly old fashioned. Very attractive. He knew it. In some ways I found myself admiring him because nothing phased him. He seemed the eternal optimist. It took a long long time before I began to notice enough to see that it wasn’t optimism – he just didn’t care. Nothing bothered him. He seems to go through life like a robot, whatever happens, he just gets on with it, ploughs through it, doesn’t waste time on emotions like empathy, regret, or remorse.
He believed in his own publicity. He was grandiose, in a subtle way. He always believed he should be served first in a shop, get the best table in a restaurant, and was not above berating some poor hard working individual if he didn’t receive the respect he felt he deserved.
He had what he liked to call “controlled aggression”. Whatever traits he had, he liked to almost lead you to believe he had cultivated them for himself. He was that much in control of himself he was always one step ahead of the game. I admired once how quickly he seemed to fall asleep – he told me he had taught himself to do that. He had rage, it was there, but it came out in smouldering dark moods rather than aggressive outburst.
He was insiduous. He could ignore you for days, even weeks on end, nearly driving you crazy with worry and then pop up and act as if nothing happened when you are just about at your wits end. No sorry, no explanation, no acknowledgement. If you push it, he would show you disdain and be “disappointed” in you. Somehow, don’t ask me how, he always came up smelling of roses, and I always walked away feeling like a horrible human being. Even when he lied, and I knew he lied, and he knew I knew he lied but carried on almost with a glint in his eye.
I think the thing that cripples us is that we realise that whilst we have become hooked, totally in love, and spellbound by them, they don’t love us in the same way. We amuse them? We give them a sense of power. We provide them with something that they need, but deep down, deep down inside your gut, you always have that little feeling that if you walked out the door tomorrow, they’d brush down, open a door and the next one would walk in and you would be forgotten in a second.
I discovered Sam Vaikin’s site about NPD and it was the only time I read anything that explained how I felt. I wasn’t so concerned about calling him anything, but it was such a relief to find out I wasn’t alone, thousands of others had gone through the same experiences and had come out a shattered remnant of themselves. Normal, nice, intelligent people were getting conned by this type of person – not just me.
I am 4 years on now, and it’s been a long slow process as this man got so far into my head with his little mind games I couldn’t get him out. I felt brainwashed, and to some extent I believe I was.
I do believe that what I experienced was malignant in every way. I don’t know what he is, but I know that to me, I came as close to experiencing an evil human being as you can get. Not overt evil. The evil of someone who knows exactly what he is doing, and getting pleasure from it. I had a friend who wouldn’t come near where we lived because she felt it had a horrible aura. He had a very dark side, it was empty. Devoid of real emotions. But he could mimic them whenever they were required.
I didn’t fear for my life physically. I feared for my sanity. With the help, encouragement, and persuasion of people who were watching me fade away, I ran. I didn’t want to – I just had to before I disappeared.
Low self esteem? No. That man had more self belief than any person I have ever come across. His self belief was so powerful it affects every one who gets near him and they are too totally taken in by him.
There is a better word to describe this kind of person. I always think of him whenever I see films about the Devil.
🙂
elljay _ I am trying to find the right words to thank you for your above post…..just sitting here shaking my head at how accurate you described my experience with the devil…thanx
ellejay, I found this website exactly as you describe,
searching, searching… for what was wrong !!! (?)
I still have the anxiety.
This site has helped me understand A LOT!!!!!
Thank you for sharing. God Bless.