The first question victims of love fraud ask concerns themselves and is generally something like, “Why is this so hard for me mentally?” The second question concerns the perpetrator, “What is wrong with him/her?” Many seek answers to these questions on the internet and in the popular psychology literature. A person looking for answers in these sources is just as likely to read about narcissism as he/she is to read about sociopathy. Thus the confusion between narcissism and sociopathy begins.
When trying to understand the difference (if any) between narcissists and sociopaths, it is important to understand why we have psychiatric diagnoses in the first place. We have diagnostic categories because people go to professionals seeking help for their emotional/psychological issues. The problem is that people who are grandiose, exploit others, lack empathy, and apparently have no conscience are unlikely to seek mental health treatment. Therefore, people with these symptoms are poorly understood. This is also the basic reason why this set of symptoms has been labeled both narcissism and sociopathy.
To further the confusion for victims of love fraud, a psychologist, Millon, has described the amorous narcissist. Such people are charming, articulate, charismatic and emotionally exploitative of their lovers. The amorous narcissist, like Don Juan, seeks conquest in his relationships. A Lovefraud reader commenting on another post has provided the best example of an amorous narcissist I have seen, yet she (correctly) calls him a sociopath:
I was completely taken in by a sociopath over a year ago. I had never met anyone who was so attentive, charming, complimentary, good looking”¦ oh, the list goes on. I felt I had not only met Mr. Right, but Mr. Perfect. This was a very cultured and well educated man. Unlike the stereotypical sociopath, he holds a good job -can even be considered a “captain of industry”. We live in different cities, so it was even easier for him to fool me. He would call me 2-3 times a day – send text messages, write e-mails. I wondered sometimes how he got the time to do all this. But it was almost impossible for ME to get him on the phone. He said he was at a meeting, at a business dinner etc.
He also seemed to not have many good friends. But all the people he mentioned were women – some one who went to the symphony with him – and had for a long time, someone who was a biking partner etc. He said his friendships with these people were built around common interests, which I thought was fair enough.
After 6 months and visits back and forth, his romantic speil was not as effusive, which I thought normal. But I also began noticing a lot of inconsistencies and lies. I caught him out on a lie about where he was – he said he was in one city on work and it turned out that he was in another on vacation – and I knew it had to be with another woman! Anyway, i expressed my distrust and he accused me of being suspicious for no reason. He said I had a mental illness and should have my head examined. I got so blisteringly angry when he said this that I told him that I would prove to him that my suspicions were warranted. I embarked on a detective spree and uncovered 4 women who he was courting the same way. One was the official girlfriend in the city where he lived. The others were mistress-type girlfriends. I spoke with all of them. And then I presented him with the evidence. He did not have much to say other than that he had “done everything for me, shown me a good time, bought me gifts”¦” and did not know why I was upset. I know now that there are others. It is like he needs to get all the women he meets to fall in love with him.
Generally speaking, the term narcissist is less pejorative than the term sociopath. The reason for this is that some professionals view the behavior of narcissists as stemming from “low self esteem.” Thus, people feel sorry for narcissists, “He/she wouldn’t do that if he/she didn’t have such low self esteem.” Many sociopaths also recognize that narcissists are more highly regarded than are sociopaths, and so state, “I’m not a sociopath, I’m just a narcissist!”
A close friend of mine who has been on a quest for answers about the man who perpetrated love fraud against her came to the legitimate conclusion that the perpetrator is a narcissist. We have had many discussions about her situation. What bothered me about her description of this man as a narcissist was that it seemed to be part of an ongoing effort not to accept his inherently evil nature. If perpetrators are only trying to bolster their low self esteem, they can still be “good.” It may also be that it is easier to accept being victimized if the perpetrator is a narcissist. The reality that we have spent years of our lives loving an evil sociopath is truly difficult to accept.
So what is the difference between a narcissist and a sociopath? Generally speaking narcissists are less impulsive and higher functioning than are sociopaths. Both narcissists and sociopaths have a severe disorder of the Inner Triangle. Both are not capable of love, and have problems with moral reasoning. In fact, many experts say that a condition called “pathological narcissism” is the core problem that results in sociopathy/psychopathy. In conclusion then, the answer to our question is, “To a victim of love fraud, there is no difference between a narcissist and a sociopath.”
Dear KatyDid,
Thank you sweetie! I do feel your love and I feel that way about most of the posters here on Lovefraud–and it is so important to me to have that love and understanding. You are very welcome my dear! When I can help someone else besides helping myself it makes my “pleasure center” light up in my brain. Science has shown that is true, not just a “feeling.” Helping others is a pleasurable thing in humans that are not psychopathic. And they don’t get that kind of pleasure either! Just like theyy don’t “get” the feelings of closeness and bonding that normal people have for their children and their lovers.
I’m glad you are looking at the feelings and the differences you have NOW not as losses but as GAINS and “improvements” in the NEW AND IMPROVED KATYDID! The wiser, smarter, stronger, greater woman that you are becoming with each lesson that you learn and apply to yourself.
That’s what keeps me coming back here to LF, and I think that’s what keeps Hens (Henry) coming back too…is working n ourselves and to extend a hand to those newbies who are still in the emotional tidal wave of pain! I’m glad you are here KatYDid, I can tell from your posts that you are a kind, considerate and caring person—FORMERLY a perfect prey for a psychopath! But not now! You have your caution to keep you safe, and your knowledge that there IS evil in this world, and that you reserve your TRUST for those who have EARNED it—a little at a time over a period of time. (It isn’t just given out until it is betrayede, it is now your prescious trust, guarded for the valuable thing it is.) Living with caution, but not terror! ((((Hugs)))) and Love to you too, Katy. God bless.
Ox-so true! I am not the same person and on my good days that IS a good thing! On my not so good days I am angry. Reading the posts about life partners, sex partners whatever….makes me wonder if I will ever want that again. I can’t even imagine it.
This might be too much information but i really have no one else that understands it but you all here…and that is the idea of sex is almost sickening to me right now. The thing I do know is that because of my own lack of boundaries and not standing up for myself (the good things I have learned in this) I did this to myself. the idea of someone touching me or me being vulnerable to someone, trusting someone? Unlikely right now. Does that change? I am sure it does but I can’t even imagine it. I hear many ask “will I trust again?” I ask the same thing. Will I ever trust? I am getting to trust myself more and more…knowing that when I see red flags I can trust that they are real and make a different game plan. I can better take care of myself. Slowly.
I also realize I have some childhood ptsd issues to work out, things I have never dealt with before now. Obviously that contributes to this pile of poop in a big way. It makes me so mad but someone was talking about gratitude above and that is where I need to stay. I am grateful that I have been able to get out of many things in my life….dealing with some crazy childhood stuff, dealing with xspath, dealing with spath brother and being able to have some insight and change the things I need to about myself. I am thankful that I have lived through it for one! and been able to start changing.
ElleJay-great post. I, too, believe I lived with the devil. Looking into his eyes was scary. I noticed even when I was dating him. I remember just being afraid of those eyes. I have said this before but he would continuously talk about his “dark side” more likely he would try to talk about MY dark side! He needed to know someone else had a dark side. I think he liked the fact I was addicted to vicodin….it made him feel superior, better than and like he wasn’t alone in his darkness. However, my darkness was nothing like his. His is evil in a way i cannot comprehend. I told him just before I got sober that I needed to go to the hospital. I told him what was happening and that I wouldn’t have anything, not a marriage, husband, child anything if I was on vicodin. he actually told me that I didn’t need to go to the hosptial! Later, a few months into my sobriety i told him i would let him out of the marriage because I felt so bad about having used in the marriage (it was our first year of marriage) and he said NO, he didn’t want me to leave. I thought he had forgiven me. But what he did was use it against me the next 6 years and hold onto a resentment. it fueled his behavior I think. It justified his horribleness to me. It justified his affair, his emotional affair, his rape (of me that he admitted to in therapy). his gaslighting. He, too, would go to friends, after being a crazy man at me and say “I am so worried about her”. He did this all the time and I didn’t know what he was doing. Now I do. Gaslight, making me feel and look crazy. i had the drug addiction in the past. Of course I was the crazy one! No wonder he wanted to tell everyone he met about my recovery. He told people in the hospital like the CEO! Why he needed to know is beyond me! who does this stuff? An evil person with no heart.
Hi Chinagirl,
I totally hear you about being completely turned off from relationship, sex or otherwise. Dad at the park was doing awkward interested divorced dad stuff and I was so disgusted I couldn’t even look at him. I don’t know how I will know if someone has good intentions with me. I have been so wrong about people so many times giving my trust when I shouldn’t have. I am nauseated just thinking about it.
One thing you said, I don’t agree with, I didn’t do this to myself. I was twisting in the wind for a while trying to make my marriage work, trying to love this man who knew he didn’t love me back. I did things the best way I knew how, with the best intentions. I DID NOT DO THIS. I TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY LIFE. I change the things I can not accept. I had big lessons to learn about the REAL WORLD, but I DID NOT do this to myself. If I am in denial call me out LF friends, but I would have never seen this coming. I was BLINDSIDED, SUCKER PUNCHED, DEFRAUDED. I was not, I am not a guilty party. And yes, the world looks pretty good from up here or that’s just what I tell myself with my overturned gut, crushed heart, legal and financial worries. CHINAGIRL, Nothing justifies what he did to you!!! What he did to you was crazy, evil behavior, your relapse is not to blame. Please do not blame yourself for his behavior!!! You did not cause him to make those choices to carry out his agenda. Hope that you are feeling better each day and hear looks of good things from your daughter!!!
Dear Chinagirl,
YOU NAILED IT, he was NOT bragging on your “recovery” he was making sure everyone knew you had been a DRUG ADDICT in the past (present?)!!! They even turn the GOOD things we do into POOP! Talk about gaslighting!
It is kind of like the old deal about “you can tell a girl her face would STOP TIME, or you can tell her it will STOP A CLOCK!” It is all in how you say it, so he took this “good” thing and used it to BEAT YOU with, and if you had said “WHY did you do this?” He would have just said “Oh, dear, because I am so PROUD OF YOU”
He knew you would realize you’d been shafted and embarrassed but he could put the SPIN on it of “I’m so proud” of you! BULL CARP!
I just sit here and shake my head and realize that the psychopaths have all used everything they could find or dig up or just plain lie to make me look bad. the day I woke up to mt egg donor’s gaslighting and MALICE was when she first accused me of being after her money. She was upset and just raving at me. Then later that day she called me (I had left her house with my mouth open in shock) and “apologized” for “anything I said that you perceived hurt you” (that was her FAKE “apology”) and Ii told her she KNEW I HAD NEVER TAKEN MONEY FROM HER ever. Even when I was in college and struggling with 2 kids, I BORROWED money for my kids but I PAID IT BACK WITH INTEREST.
She said “Oh, I didn’t mean that, I JUST SAID IT TO HURT YOU.”
” I just did it to HURT you.”
“I just did it to HURT YOU.”
What kind of person, much less a mother, does that to their child, even adult child? That was when I realized that she was malicious. That all the times she had said and done things that hurt me were DELIBERATE. I had always pushed them back and said “Oh, she didn’t MEAN TO HURT ME.” But then I realized she DID mean to hurt me.
The times she contradicted herself I always said “Oh, she just forgot what she promised, she would NEVER LIE TO ME.”
OH YES she would LIE. Like a rug. Oh, yes, she would intentionally HURT ME. Stab me in the back. accuse me of things she knew were not true. Smear my name to her friends and our community. YEP–that is when she became my EGG DONOR, because she did not EARN the right to be anyone’s mother.
My son D ran into one of my egg donor’s friends who thanked him profusely for “being so loyal and sacrifice for taking care of poor Oxy” (because after all you know, she is out of her mind!)
THAT is gaslighting at its best, when they can appear the VICTIM or the LONG SUFFERING ONE…(head shaking here) But Chinagirl, hang on there, you are making progress each day. He is NOT going to win in the end.
You are clean and sober. You are recovering and he will never recover…he will be what he is until the day he dies. Just keep working toward reestablishing your relationship with that wonderful baby girl. Right now, it may actually be best for her to be with her step mother who seems to care for her, this will give you a break to look after your own needs right now, and he is probably ignoring the child for the most part. If she had a caring step mother she is at least for the moment safe. At least she isn’t alone with the devil! (((Hugs)))) keep the faith and keep on working the programs!!!! God bless.
Thanks Oxy….It is so sad when we finally realize that yes, this person who is supposed to love us is doing something evil. I cannot fathom how a mother can do something like that. My own mother lied to me, talked about me to my children, pitted me against my brother and vice versa…no wonder he is hates me…she participated and didn’t help him get over his abaondonment issues as a child (but obviously he is now an adult and responsible for HIMSELF..but not doing that).
I am so sorry that you went through that with your mother and your son. It is just hideous. Look at who are you now. An incredibly strong woman who is helping countless others….I see it everyday reading your responses to people and your responses and encouragement to me. You are on here daily spending your valuable time with us. That is amazing. And your wisdom is needed…your analogies are superb! and the love you share is beautiful. I know I speak for many others when I say thank you. thank you for taking the time to hear my story and to give me much needed encouragement and boinks on the head! It never comes across as being ‘better than’ it comes across in a loving and caring way. You can be the mother to yourself that you needed because you are that to us. The loving mother that we needed to tell us these things when we were younger, to teach us these boundaries and how to take care of ourselves but didn’t get. Well, I’ll speak for myself! in that I didn’t get that from my mother. I always searched for a mentor, mother substitute and although I love my mother and wish she was still here because I always believe in healing she hurt me quite a lot as a child and as an adult.
Thanks for your wisdom and care! You are right, my xspath is NOT going to win and I am grateful for my D’s step mom. I have just now realize, after finding lf, how much more recovery I need from this and the past five years have been just me spinning around and around making things worse! No mas! And i am clean and sober. I had five years when I left xspath, relapsed for a bit and now have three years again. SO~! towanda and ADAMANT!! LOL
Fearless-thanks for reminding me that he did do this! I only have responsibility in how I respond now….I know better for myself and that doesn’t mean I might not get into another horrible relationship. i might make a mistake being fooled again. I HOPE NOT and I will probably do a lot of reality checks with trusted people like LF until I can feel safe in my judgments, you know? But what I really mean is that I didn’t have good boundaries and had i been healthier emotionally I wouldn’t have ignored the red flags I saw with him prior to our marriage. I think, anyway! But, now I probably am too aggressive as I learn to be assertive but i don’t care! If I hurt some guys feelings oh well. I will NOT be pushed into anything I don’t want to do. I am saying NO all the time now! And I am not apologizing for it nor am I explaining it.
The idea of being in a relationship where I have to “compromise” and work on things etc is just not where I want to be right now! I want to be with me (and D). I want to take care of me and my D. I want to nurture me and D. I need to be the mother to myself that I didn’t get to have. The really cool thing is I know I am a good mom. My kids adore me and my 26yo son hugs and kisses me, calls me several times a week, tells me he loves me. Asks for advice, wants me to help him design his house etc…His dad and I did a good job! My D doesn’t want to be with xspath…but she is smart and she has a decent step mom to help her right now. I have faith that she is being watched over and cared for until I can take back my primary role.
I guess it doesn’t really matter if I can’t imagine the idea of dating right now. When it is right I will know it. Until that time I won’t sweat it. I will take care of me, keep building my practice, doing what I can each day to get stronger and smarter and get that ADAMANT going and get my D back. That is what matters most to me. I don’t have to date right now! Wow, what freedom to just even say it and realize it.
Dear Chinagirl,
Right now focusing on YOU and D is the best and ONLY thing you need to do.
Learning to TRUST YOURSELF to keep yourself safe will come in time, but right now, don’t even worry about it. It isn’t important right this minute.
What we have to do is to prioritize our energy, just like you would make a bank account of money and pay the most important bills first, we have to make a bank account of energy and pay the most important thing first—OURSELVES. You are actually fortunate that as painful as it is for you right now, you don’t have to worry about seeing your daughter gets enough sleep, or a roof, or homework, you can concentrate on the more important parts right now. Your strength and your relationship.
You’ve already made some good choices, and I know things will progress! I’m proud for you and proud of you. You’re getting your head on right! First things first! (((Hugs))) and TOWANDA!!!!
One more thing OxD-
My xspath DID say exactly what you wrote to me. I asked him why in the world would he need to tell the CEO of the hospital about my recovery when i wasn’t working as a nurse anesthetist there and didn’t need to disclose that to anyone at the hospital. He said “I am so proud of you!” BULLSHIT. ‘scuse my language. Yeah so proud that he sabotoged all my recovery functions. Got mad if i didn’t take care of him because I had to go to a meeting. Allowed his mother to hide alcohol in the trunk of MY car (they borrowed when the flew out to visit us) and to go and mix jack daniels and whatever in her morning coffee cup! He wouldn’t stand up to them. He said he didn’t want to get in the middle. But allow her to drink around me and cause the chaos. Oh well. I don’t have to have that chaos any more! It is wonderful!
Wow, gaslighting is so very scary…
Thanks Ox, it really feels good to be supported and encouraged and to hear the things I need to hear..such as taking care of me and not worrying about anything else. So true.
Dear Chinagirl,
They sabotage us in every way possible. While him having booze around is no excuse for you taking it, it is a way that they can undercut us and make our recovery more difficult.
I haven’t had the trouble THIS time in quitting cigarettes that I have always has before (not sure why) but even folks smoking around me doesn’t bother me much if any now. But I know one thing, I have made up my MIND that NOTHING will come between me and my NOT SMOKING.
Just like the “new nutrition plan” (don’t say diet!) I am DETERMINED THIS TIME….no fooling myself! No BSing ME!
You can do it, I know you can!!!! (((hugs))))