By | April 27, 2007 41 Comments

Book Review: The Betrayal Bond

In the last several months I have written a great deal on this blog about the nature of love and bonding. If you would like to know more, read The Betrayal Bond, Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships, by Patrick J. Carnes. I just read this book and was happy to see so much commonality with my own view.

Dr. Carnes himself survived a Betrayal Bond, and as such writes with the authority of someone who has “been there.” Remember, it is not just women who are affected by love fraud. Normal men bond and are deeply affected by their love relationships.

Dr. Carnes discusses in detail the psychological trauma associated with a relationship with a sociopath, though his book does not focus only on sociopaths. When you finish this book you will have a clear perspective on why and how you became attached to a sociopath. The book is full of questions and exercises designed to help you assess yourself and find healing.

Many people have asked me if I believe that sociopaths can change or if I think someone suspected of sociopathy should be given a second chance. Dr. Carnes spells out the criteria for allowing someone back into your life. On page 160 he gives a clear cut, sound opinion on this matter. He states that the betrayer/abuser should have:

  1. A clear track record of non-abusing behavior (I add 6-12 months).
  2. A verifiable commitment to therapy and to 12- Step Group attendance.
  3. A coordinated effort of joint therapy involving both partners.
  4. An acceptance of the consequences of his/her actions.
  5. A clear and earnest effort to make amends to all who have been hurt.
  6. An agreement for zero tolerance of old behavior.

He also states that victims need time away from the abuser to heal. These guidelines are very important because not all people with sociopathic traits are incapable of change. Sociopaths at this point are beyond help. Sociopaths are not capable of steps 1-6 above.

Dr. Carnes also addresses personal recovery and the barriers to recovery he has observed. Barriers to recovery happen because of an over dependency on the abuser in an exploitive relationship. He says victims may resist having to become independent again.

The only technical point that I took issue with regarding this book was the assertion that “Betrayal Bonds” are different qualitatively from other human bonds. I think that these bonds form for many of the same reasons and with the same neurochemistry as healthy bonds. The important point is that FEAR STRENGTHENS BONDING. Fear bonding can occur in a normal couple following a natural disaster such as an earthquake or hurricane. The unconscious often does not recognize that an abusive partner is the source of fear, so bonds can be intentionally strengthened by a sociopathic abuser.

In summary, I believe that The Betrayal Bond is clear, understandable and well written. I highly recommend the book to Lovefraud readers healing from an exploitive relationship. If you want to order the book, click on the title above to be directed to

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I read this book about 3 years ago and loved it. I recommend it to all the survivors on our blog and those I encounter in person.

Another one to recommend to you Dr. Leedom – EMOTIONAL RAPE SYNDROME by Dr. Mike Fox


I just finished today Ann Rule’s true crime book “Dead by Sunset”. It was really enlightening to see the amazing similarities between “my” psychopath and the one in the book. (Though thankfully, as far as I know, mine has never killed anyone!) What was fascinating was seeing the same weird blend of clever calculating ruthlessness and idiotic delusional naivete.
I’ll add the Carnes book to my Amazon wishlist!


I agree, this is a wonderful book. I read a TON of self-help books, books on narcissism, psychopathy, etc., co-dependency, etc. The two that absolutely helped me the most were #1 The Betrayal Bond….I still reread it all the time, and get more from each reading, and then EMOTIONAL RAPE SYNDROME by Dr. Mike Fox was very confirming for me. Also, just for straight, non-victim blaiming, I liked Keith Campbell’s book, When You Love a Man Who Loves Himself….great if you are dealing with a narcissist in a romantic relationship or got hurt. Explains the difference very clearly and simply between the normal course of a romantic relationship and the course of a “relationship” (if you can call it one) with a narcissist. But again, Betrayal Bond is best, and for encounters with psychopaths and more than just romantic relationships. Everytime I feel baffled about what I’m feeling, I go back to that book.

Ox Drover

I just ordered that book last Friday off Amazon, with shipping it is about $9 for a used copy. As a book-a-holic, I am sure that I will add this copy to my permanent libarary of reference materials along with Without Conscience. (which is so underlined and high lighted it nearly glows!)

I am anxious to get started reading it. From the excerpts I have read, I think there will be a lot of “Ah ha” moments in it for me.

Thanks, Dr. Leedom for this review.

Justabouthealed, whiy don’tyou do a book review of The Dr. Mike Fox book for us?


To assess my own situation:
1.A clear track record of non-abusing behavior (I add 6-12 months).
Separated 2 years during which he exhibtted rage, demeaning, and hostile behavior many times.

2.A verifiable commitment to therapy and to 12- Step Group attendance.
Started his therapy in April, but I don’t think he is challenged to look at himself truthfully. I don’t see change in his behavior as a result.

3.A coordinated effort of joint therapy involving both partners.
No way! After TWO sessions, twice so far, he wanted to drop out blaming the therapist both times. He called them “conflict oriented therapists”. He put it as wanting “fast track” therapy to see if there is progress quicly, not a long time.

4.An acceptance of the consequences of his/her actions.
He makes demands on my, asks for MY support, projects anger at ME. I have not heard him honestly own up to his actions. At best there was an apology–but with feigned tears.

5.A clear and earnest effort to make amends to all who have been hurt.
Nope. ALways an evasion that it’s not all him. Expectation that the world (especially ME) adapt to meet his needs.

6.An agreement for zero tolerance of old behavior.
He does not have control of his behavior. He gets overwhelmed with anxiety, anger easily, and reaches to others to fix it. An agreement would be futile. I have seen his lack of control over himself. If there is control it is manipulative.

Ox Drover

Dear Dancing Warrior,

It seems that you have assessed the situation carefully and seen “the light” that there IS NO LIGHT in this man, no changes, no chance of changes, and no desire to change.

Now it is up to YOU to ACT, for your own self preservation. Tht’s what it has come down to for all of us, our own “enlightening” moments of seeing the TRUTH. :”the truth will set you free, but first it will pith you off.” (hugs)))

Twice Betrayed

“Barriers to recovery happen because of an over dependency on the abuser in an exploitive relationship. He says victims may resist having to become independent again.”

I question this statement. In fact, my abuser needed me far worse than I needed him. I leaned on ME because he was not there in any shape or form. He leaned on me in every way…he relied on me for all guidance, emotions, why he couldn’t even balance a checkbook w/o me doing it. I did/ran everything. He couldn’t make any decisions [except to lie, cheat and deceive which seemed to pretty much come as naturally to him as breathing]. No, after I walked out…I did not notice anything different in the way of dependence/independence except I was on one salary…which is true of any divorce. The only thing I cried and mourned over was realizing he never loved, cared or respected me when I gave my all.

Ox Drover

Dear TB,

Sweetie, that is the thing about them I think, we THINK we are doing and “giving all” and they are giving nothing, but that is the part of us that seems to think if we give to others that they will reciprocate with loving us, and that our “giving our all” will make them see how much we love them and do for them. The problem is that we are doing for them what they refuse to do for themselves, ACT responsibily…I have told myself for so long I was “helping” and “giving my all” and unfortunately, I should have let them do for themselves. I should have taken care of MYSELF instead of taking care of others.

It is a difficult road to see people we love “fail” miserably, and want our “help”—but in the end, each of us must paddle their own canoes. People who love me paddle their own canoes, and I paddle mine, but we love each other because of who we are, not what we do for each other.

I need them because I love them, not “love” them because I “need” them. SHARING is not the same as one person carrying the load for both.

Years ago I noticed that one of my old oxen would let his pal carry most of the load and would hang back just a fraction so his mate was doing most of the work. I had to give him some “incentive” to pull his share and I did, and after that, he would every once in a while need a bit more reminding that it was a team, with two pulling. If I hadn’t noticed and given Buck some incentive, his partner would have gone on, uncomplaining, pulling 3/4 of the load. Sometimes I have found myself uncomplaining, pulling 3/4 or 7/8 of the load with some family members, but now I am pulling my fair share and no more. I expect each of my friends and family to pull their share and without contstant Reminding or “incentive”—they are adults and I don’t have to keep my foot up their back sides—I won’t do that any more or ever again. I am no longer willing to be “unequally yoked”—that is why the Bible forbid the Early Jews to yoke together a donkey and an ox, as they would not be equally yoked and it would cause pain to one of the pair since their strengths were different, temperments different and heights different.

It does hurt to realize that someone has been letting us pull almost the entire load, but We can decide not to continue to do this and I’m proud of you for making this decision. (((hugs))))


Thanks for another great resource. I really was hoping to find something to read about these types of relationships. I realized reading the checklist that 1-5 were things that he could never do, in fact rather than make amends he would conciously avoid those people he knew he hurt through his behavior towards me and as for #6, well he “promised he would never behave like that again” and that was one of his biggest lies. So my math says 1+5 = Never going to change.

Twice Betrayed

Ox: thanks for your last sentence of encouragement! {{hugs back!}}

However, I guess I do not get the first part of your first sentence….

It certainly felt real that I was giving all……! I know I was doing the giving.
I am not a dependent person and was not so when I met him either. He feigned strength, independence and manhood. He spun the illusion of being able to be a strong male that could be my equal in strength, emotional maturity etc and it was all an illusion. I wound up carrying more and more of the weight until I bore it all. *I do see your point regarding the oxen.

I do not find a bunch of dependent personalities on this blog…I find a bunch of very independent people with strong personalities willing to buck up [and have had to] and assume a lot of responsibility.
It’s a common teaching in regular counseling that people [especially females] in abusive relationships are dependent personalities. I resent being labeled “dependent”. I know some very successful people both female and male that are dynamic, strong individuals that cannot withstand or buck up to the situations we have endured. Dependent…no, I do think so or agree with this label.

I also believe a relationship consists of bearing another’s burdens at times of stress, illness etc. It’s a give and take situation that requires each to pull for the other at times but the main goal is to keep the relationship solid and together. I am willing to stand for that but that’s not the case with these disordered people…it’s all about what’s in it for them. This leaves us with a bitter taste when we finally throw in the towel and walk. We did give our all and they took it!

Ox Drover

Dear TB,

The “enabling” starts out “slow” and we pick up one responsibility of theirs and then another and then another, and pretty soon, we are bearing the entire load.

No, “victims” are not always “dependent” in the sense that theyy don’t bear their share of the burden, but sometimes we are “subservient” to their demands. They have trouble getting and keeping a job, so we work two. They have problems with this or that and we “fix” it (or try to) and when it doesn’t work out to suit them, they BLAME US for the outcome.

Unlike the oxen, we start to resent carrying more than our share when we wise up and sometimes we rebel, but in the end, unless we realize what we are doing, we go back to the old pattern. We put OUR needs on “hold” while we take care of their needs—needs that they should be doing for themselves.

Whether it is going their bail bond over and over when they get caught with drugs, or buying them a new car when they wrecked the last one, high on drugs, etc. we are taking responsibility for their needs, and assuming the consequences for their POOR CHOICES.

We find some “justification” for the pickles they get themselves in and we trivalize their bad choices, bad behavior etc. and call it “helping” and “being supportive of the one I love” but in the end,, we have to realize we have not been wise in our own choices, because we have given and given and given and GIVEN until we are empty and they have taken and taken and taken and not only have no gratitude, but are positively livid at how badly we have “let them down.” LOL

Last summer I realized that I am way too giving, and don’t expect enough out of those I love, and I’ve been learning to set boundaries and not worry so much about “hurting” someone’s feelings by expecting them to take responsibility for themselves, be truthful and honest, to keep their committments. I am no longer falling for the “pity play” when people don’t keep their committments or even make an effort to do so, and when they start with the “poor me” cries, and why they can’t/won’t keep their committments because of this or that disability and then slam me when I say, “what does THAT have to do with you keeping your committment?”

I no longer fall for the pity and feel guilty because THEY make poor choices. Last month when my son C lied to me, and I caught him, I was devestated and tremendously HURT because I had started to TRUST him 100% —but in spite of the fact that it broke my heart, I asked him to leave m,y relationship is over with him and unless there is business to accomplish, our emotional relationship is over, and done with unless HE makes some significant changes and takes responsibility for his choices. There will not be a mommie to open her door even if he is living on the street. He may have come home like the story of the Prodigal son in the Bible, but aflter he “GOT COMFORTABLE” HERE, He fell back into dysfunctional patterns in his behavior and rather than “man up” and be up front, discussing it with me, he chose to go behind my back, hope I wouldn’t find out, but was ready with a lie when I did find out.

In Mary Jo Buttafico’s book, her yhoung adult son was out of a job when Joey’s chop shop was shut down after Joey got arrested and sent to jail. So her son had no job and was living with a friend (couch surfing) and Mary Jo’s new husband would have offered him a job, but she said “no” he needs to work it out on his own. Her son did work it out on his own.

After I left working in poduction and post production with films, I went to LA, California and got an entgry level lab in a motion picture film printing factory, and over about 4 years worked myself up to a pretty high paying union job, and also worked non-union for smaller companies, editing film and sound. I enjoyed my work and I was good at it. I had some friends out there that helped me find jobs, apartments, transportation and get myself set up to live. I got married and had my two sons close together, settled down a surbaban mother of two topoddler children . IN 1972, my husband and I and the kids moved back to Arkansas near my parents and grandparents—-settling down and I worked as church secterary for a couple of years, then ran a large fish farm
bought a victorian house to redo ourselves and became little “oxy homemaker” in the small town. My husband was not a “bad” man, he just had some “problems” that I couldn’t deal with (gambling and alcohol) So we had a very quiet divorce without any problems and two years later he gave written permission for my new husband to adopt my sons, which he did. It also let him stop paying child suppor.

My husband adopted my sons and was las close to a perfect father as I think any man couol have been, he was a mentor in every way. Neither of us wantged any more children so he chose to have a vicectomy and from that day onward, his parents set out to break us up. It was painful for me, but it succeeded and the boys and I went our way, me back to college for my Registered Nurse Practitioner degree and certification.

Seven years later, I married my late husband. A man I had known since I was a teenager. He had known my kids since they were little and liked my kids as if they were his own.l

Together, we adopted “our” son, D as the “child of our old age” and he just became part of our family and we both loved him as much as if he was b orn to us.

I literally think that God gave me son D to replace the ones I lost. Sometimes we are like two one-legged men, having to hold on to stand up right, but I can give my “all” to D and I receive in return HIS all as well.

On the subjects of “betrayal bonds” or “trauma” bonds, I noticed several years agoo that the people you are in some kind of trauma with you seem more closet to than those that you have only experienced “good timess” with.

My best friend that I just visited with—I met them at a traumatic time for their familoy and son, he was rendered a quadrapalegic in an accident, I was the nursing supervisor, I spent a great deal of time with the kid (he was 15 then) and got to close to him and his family.Thenn my kids met him and they were all about the same age and ingterested in compute4rs. Both parents were working full time and trying to take care of their son at home, who needed total care.

ON weekends they wouod bring him to my house to visit with my sons and let them have some private time together. My boys would do the heavy transfers out of the wheel chair into othe bed, and then back, and I taught them how he needed to be cared for and they did a good job and enjoyed his company.

Since that time, even though I moved away only a couple of years after I met her, we kept in touch by phone and letter and would visit each other for from 1-4 weeks every year. When one needs help, the other one loads ujp and comes—no questions just comes. She was herefor me at the time of my husband’s death, the death of my step-father, and always there if I just need to talk or need a place to hide out.

She knows my whole life story, she’s seen me at my best and seen me at my worst and she sttill loves me…now THAT’s a friend!

She and I have been through some hard times on the parts of each other, and I imagine we willl again, but we are bonded by those events. I think much more strongly bonded than we would have been if we had onlhy gone through “good” times with each other.


Oxy research bears out your theory about experiencing trauma with others and then being bonded to them. For the research people were sent over a precarious swing bridge – some were sent alone and some with a companion – those with the companion were much more strongly bonded to them when the bridge appeared to ‘snap’ – in fact lots of the people stayed in touch after the experiments.

I have always thought this is also something that keeps us bonded to the Ps – they create trauma then the illusion of going through it with us so our bond to them gets stronger as ‘something we weathered together and weren’t beaten by’. The memory then goes into the sentimentality file – and women who love psychos are known for being huge on sentimentality.

Similar no doubt to the betrayal bond thesis – must read that book! Have heard so many good things about it 🙂

Twice Betrayed

Oxy: what great friends you both are to each other! Thanks for sharing your story! 🙂

Twice Betrayed

I have a friend that is a very strong independent woman-makes her own living as an executive buyer for a large upscale boutique chain. Travels alone, owns her own home …etc. She met what I consider to be a P ten years ago and married him. Now, this is something I have noticed and have been victim to myself as well in these males….he is very good looking with a strong masculine presence and high sexuality [she told me]. I see a good number of these males are square jawed and handsome. Something to consider…and interesting to note. I suppose evolution would support this is the alpha male- so to speak. As females we are drawn to the strong, manly provider/protector and these P males seem to ooze these traits….the key to that is ‘seem’. With their high sexuality we get hooked for sure. Well, my friend got tangled up with this guy and he took a powder several years ago-left his good job and started driving a cross country truck!–or so he said. After not coming home but twice in two years he finally surfaced admitting [after being busted by this friend’s son at a local dept store] he has a GF and a son by her. My friend is just broken beyond words. She had a melt down in her store with me several days ago confiding this to me. I listened and offered her some help via this website and information–however, she is not open at this time of heavy grief and all she can focus on is; she loves him and that seems to be ruling her line of thought. I am terrified she is going to tolerate his having them both…along with the kid..which is what he said he wanted!! As I was leaving, she did say she was seeking legal advice from a local attorney. Have you bloggers any advice to offer for me to be able to reach her, at this time, regarding the toxic relationship she is snared in? Thanks!


Have been checking out another forum re ‘daughters of N mothers’ – which may be of interest to other LF’ers (tho does this make me a l’il ‘unfaithful’ to LF- hope not! 🙂

Very supportive like LF, but with a specific focus on things that may apply to a certain number of LF’rs.


Delta1 x


OMG….traitor….traitor…… get out the chains!!! 🙂

Delta…it looks like some good info….
I’m having computer issues and am in a weird mode right now….so I can’t bookmark anything….hopefully i’ll be able to find it again!
Thanks for sharing that! Looks good! I think any good info is good for us to know……knowledge = power!!!


For more informative reading..and for fun!

Ox Drover


We aren’t jealous, it is okay to date around with other web sites! LOL

Yes, Many of us do have problems with N parents or controlling parents. Or enabling parents, or other family of origin (FOO) issues. Sometimes those early problems in the family roles set us up to become enablers or fixers or victims, or to have low self esteem. Fortunately,, just because we have these problems or had them doesn’t mean that we can’t change, heal, fix ourselves, etc.

The only thing we CAN fix is ourselves, the only person we can control is ourselves. But that’s okay. It’s all we need.

There are lots of good sites out there, personally, I think LF is the best, but then I am prejudiced after all. ErinB is right though, Knowledge=power and we need to take back the power to make ourselves stronger and better.


Oxy, I haven’t talked with my middle sister in over 2 years. Ever since she voiced her opinion and said “Why does all this chit happen to you”? (referring to my bosses going after me then John taken me for all I worked for). I said “what are you talking about, this crap happens all the time to people”!. She then said “no one else in the family has problems like this”! “Take responsibility Wini for what you did to your bosses and what you allowed John to do to you”. On that comment I said “the reason this stuff doesn’t happen to you so and so is because you’re the predator that does other people under”. And “as far as taking responsibility for John’s or anyone’s actions … I’m not his or their mommy … and they aren’t under age 18”. “Therefore, everyone is responsible for their own actions”. Then I told her “she’s cut from the same clothe as John, always lying through life to manipulate and get her own way”.

Well, the moral to the story “you never tell an ash hole, they are an ash hole!” Why? Because they are an ash hole.”

So, obviously, that conversation didn’t go over big with my sister. She refuses to this day, to speak with me. She will talk over or around me if we’re in the same room.

Thank you Jesus for peace and quiet in my life. Oh, heaven down on earth!

Take responsibility for an ash holes actions! That will be the day you bury me 6 ft under.

Delta,-they should have a website called “Mothers with narcissistic daughters”! Both of my daughters are narcs/spaths.
Actually I have been feeling a bit disconnected lately, as most people on LF seem to have either husbands, wives, lovers or parents or even siblings who are spaths or narcs.
Logically I know that a lot of us have spath adult kids but i dont seem to be getting any feedback lately from Mothers of spath adult kids.{Witty, where are you? and Creampuff?} And now and again the old FOG tries to come back,{the old fear, obligation and guilt that we all know so well!} Im doing OK though! Today I met my new adopted adult daughter at central station in sydney. We had a lovely day! Got the tram to china town, had a delicious lunch, went shopping, and then back to central. Roya is so appreciative of everything, and we have such fun together. I am so lucky! She is mending my broken heart. So God is good !Love from your happy Mamagem.XX


Delta 1. i checked that site out a couple of weeks ago and although I wish (as always) there was a section entitled ‘magic way to not give two hoots about crazy people and be all better immediately and start living happy in one simple easy to read step’ I found reading some of the articles empowering. I was going through triggerama with my daughter and Narc ED, and reading about ‘the scapegoat and golden child’ pantomime that Narcissist like to play really struck something in me. helped me focus on what was really going on and detach from the madness emotionally and physically. 🙂 Knowledge is power. and reading something that helps you to stand outside of the malestrome that s/n/p’s create and go ‘ah – I know what all this noise is – its the same old bollox they always do and I’m outta here.’ Is great:)x


BlueSkies, I used to keep a single button (from a discarded keyboard) resting on the side of my computer for all the times the Spaths went into “DRAMA MODE” … It’s the “Escape” key.



Thanks Wini:)x that’s good. I will try to visualize an eject button to press when I smell drama:)x Must make sure its connected to my hard drive too though…;)xx


BlueSkies, I don’t know if you ever watched the show MaryHartman, Mary Hartman. But, there was a character in the show who believed he was invisible (I think his name was Bert)? Anyway, when this character couldn’t handle any more drama (and the show was nothing but drama)… he would believe that he became invisible. LOL. All the characters on the show used to pretend they couldn’t see him.

Ox Drover

One time I found some “stick on” buttons that looked like computer keys in some novelty store and they were RED, one said DELETE and the other said EJECT! I put both of them on my computer keyboard and I wish I had bought more as that was 3 keyboards ago! LOL

Gosh Wini, I guess our minds run in the same ruts! LOL

Delta, Wini, Blueskies and Gem, we have some set backs occasionally, but we just have to keep putting one foot in front of the other and plodding on. Wini, NC with your sister is probably the best thing you could do.

Gem, we have “lost” our bio-kids but God has given us new and wonderful adopted ones, so don’t waffle about! Just be thankful.

Delta, learning, reading books and articles, and taking what seems to fit and using it for our own healing is a good thing, I think. There are some good books out there on “If you had controlling parents” (that is the name of one) check them out on Amazon, by subject or name.


Oxy, yes, my sister is a funny person. I could never quit wrap my finger around what she’s all about. I know she has to control. I know she doesn’t seek peace and harmony. Then she’ll be there for you. She’s a strange mixture for sure. I got sick of being sick of her being aggravated that folks in our circle (family and friends) would discuss what my bosses were doing at any given time during those 6 years of the lawsuit with me. She’d interject and say things such as “I’m sick of all this”! … “can’t you talk about anything else”?! … “it’s all about you, no one can get a word in about anything else these last few years because of you, you, you”! Clueless. Absolutely clueless to what this type of stress causes in a person’s life.

To this day, if a person can’t imagine all the stress a person endures going through the devastation anti-social personalities wreak on another’s life … I have no use for even allowing a friendship to flourish. Whether it’s out of innocence or ignorance, or just sticking their heads in the sand … Frankly, I don’t give a damn … I’m gone with the wind!

P.S. Oxy, I think my sister’s narcissism got the better of her during the time my bosses were destroying me. She couldn’t stand that she couldn’t control the conversations. All family and friends were truly concerned and of course, horrified to hear what was happening to me on the work front.

Ox Drover

Wini, I think you are well away from her, just treat her like a potted plant if you have to be in the same room with her at a family gathering….that’s the nicest thing about potted plants, even the artificial plastic ones is that you don’t have to notice or interact with them at all…they are just part of the decor and who in fact would even think of interacting with the DECOR of a room or place? Not me for sure!

I accidently happened on to this NC technique when my GF’s BF that she was dating at the time did some nasty stuff to me and stole some stuff (which I discovered) from me just as a way to hurt me….after that, I just pretended he was not in the room when I was there and he came over. He would yell at me and stand in front of me, and I would just continue on with a conversation with her like he was invisible! It worked too, he would jump up and down like a banty rooster throwing a FIT and I would just keep on ignoring him.

It is the ULTIMATE INSULT TO AN N OR P because they are not in control and you are NOT REACTING to them. They can’t make you react, and that is how Mel is acting now, he is throwing a FIT because he is NO longer in control of the GF and he cannot stand that. SHE IS IN CONTROL now if it is because she is an N or P manipulating I don’t know, or if she is just being vengeful and controlling that way, could be that too. But she knows she is being taped and he didn’t (he should have!) so he threw the tantrum.

I’ve thrown some tantrums too when I was “bested” by the Ps, but NOT like that for sure! LOL About the worst I did was to tell my egg donor she was a “senile old bat!” But about 1 minute later, I realized what I had done and sincerely apologized, but she never accepted it because “I didn’t seem sincere enough” LOL Oh, well….that’s her problem, not mine.


Oxy, she’s been doing the “potted plant” routine to me for the last 2 years. (LOL). I just let her, because no matter who does the routine, the result is the same. Peace and quiet with serenity flowing through my veins. I no longer have to listen to her insults towards me within minutes of my walking through the door. No more hearing how she changes situations in our childhood to suit her ego. Just peace and quiet. I no longer find that I distance myself from her at any family event or make excuses to leave because my stomach is in knots. If she’s fine with not being my sister and friend. I’m good with that. I just want calm vibrations in my life. That’s it. No more choppy waters.

I guess it hit home when I confessed to her that I knew I was being trashed by my bosses, just like she trashed me in our childhood. Same ole, same ole. I couldn’t quit put my finger on it, but I knew the vibrations of “NO GOOD” was entering my space.


You know Oxy, I keep going back to what my Dad used to say … about how a person can focus on living a happy life, or focus on living a miserable life. I wonder, if all these anti-social personalities are just miserable to their very cores and want everyone else that comes in contact with them to feel the same misery they feel?

Ox Drover

Well, there are of course DIFFERENT LEVELS dysfunction, and we come into contact with these people all the time. They may be our boss, co-worker, cousin, sister, BF/GF etc etc. doesn’t matter.

If we get rid of ONE of them, there will be another one pop up in our lives somewhere. Son D and I had a conversation today about that, and he and I are both DETERMINED to not let ourselves RE-ACT to them though we may have to do a RESPONSE.

We use “reasonable pre-caution” on various things, like we wear our seat belts in the car because it gives us a better chance of surviving a crash. Haven’t had one, but we take the pre-caution anyway. I also have a fire extinguisher in the kitchen, never have used it, but it is there in case I need it. I wear shoes outside at night because I know there are poison snakes in our area I’ve seen them in the yard so it SEEMS REASONABLE to go outside WITH SHOES ON…to wear shoes as a pre-caution.

I also keep a pistol fairly close by, and in the past I HAVE used a pistol to save my fat arse (not the donkey, but what these pants make look bigger! LOL there Henry!!!!!) three times in 35 years…never had to pull the trigger though, but I carry it as a PRE-caution because I do know that it is like the fire extinguisher if you need it you need it NOW!

Now, where does REASONABLE pre-caution stop and PARANOIA start? Where does caution stop and terror begin?

Where does vigilance stop and HYPER vigilance (jumping at every sound) begin? I’m not sure, now that I come to think about it. Just ruminating here but some food for thought for a while in any case.


Well, Its an interesting rumination OX.
Especially when we talk about becoming invisible.

I think it boils down to a judgment that is very individual and must follow a LOT of conscious thinking. Unconcious thinking is all about what I think of as the distortions brought on by the desire for the illusion the SPATH created. And before you can choose to carry a gun, it MUST be decided that nonsense is over.

MY though, get a dog. Let the dog jump at every sound and then you decide which noisemakers to shoot at……

Your thoughts?


SilverMoon, LOL … you are on to something. I can hear “them” now … complaining how all the decent folks are uniting and can see right through “them”!

“Chief, chief, the Indians are on the warpath, lets round them up, throw them into the paddy wagons, throw away the key and call a press conference how we quarantined them for society’s good. Then the spin doctors come out full force telling folks not to listen to those disgruntled people who got screwed and tatooed. Scatching head “I thought she/he’d be a basket case for the rest of their days”?????

But, dogs and guns work for me.



Dogs hear better than people. And most of the BS really doesn’t register with them.

“Fast is good, but accuracy is everything”
Wyatt Earp

Ox Drover


Well, you sort of have to think about what the RISKS are vs. the benefits of various actions, AND act not re-act.

It doesn’t cost me anything but a second to put some slip ons my feet when I go outside esp at night (though I do like to go barefoot) in case there are snakes in the yard. I have seen plenty of snakes in the yard through the years—almost all poison ones that blend with the grass and leaves and are hard to spot in the day time so I am less likely to get bitten if I am barefoot.

Yes, I have 3 dogs—-and I listen for their different barks.

I also have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen, one in the barn and one in the aircraft hangar…total cost about $60. Never had to use any of them.

I wear seat belts in the car because it is the law (prevent a ticket) and because of the stats of lowering death rates in a crash. Never had a crash since they were legally mandated.

Have a cell phone in my pocket any time I leave the front door in case I fall and break a leg, get snake bitten, or any number of things, car breaks down…whatever. I also have a fire arm, in case of snakes or intruders (there are lots of “oil field trash” around here and illegal aliens and so on because of the natural gas drilling in the area around my farm) Plus like I said, the fire arm has saved my bacon on 3 occasions and I never had to pull the trigger yet.

However, on that score I decided a long time ago that I would have NO PROBLEM pulling it if I felt threatened. Not going to violate the law doing it, but within the law WILL use it. A few months ago a home owner (old man) shot a robber who was outside stealing stuff off his car port and ran away when he went to the door and told the guy to halt. NOT legal to shoot in that case. Can’t legally protect PROPERTY, only life and limb either of yourself or someone else.

I no longer get a “rush” when a strange car/truck drives up in front of my house (at the end of a dead end drive) but if I don’t know the person, I am cautious but not terrified. Not about to let them into the house or close enough to grab me and they need to have both hands where I can see them, cause they WON’T be seeing both of mine. I have no problem asking strange men to “stop right there and tell me who you are” as they get out of their vehicle. (which is usually quite a ways from my front door as I have a long walk from the parking areas.)

If it offends them to identify themselves too bad. Usually even if I don’t know them, they identify themselves by saying “OH, I’m your neighbor Fred’s nephew, Sam from Little Rock, I just stopped by to see if I could fish in your pond.” At that point I let them SEE my other hand and what is in it, and say “No, no problem at all, go ahead and fish. Thanks for stopping by.”

Sure they are going to tell Uncle Fred that ” when I went toward the door that old woman had a gun in her hand and told me to tell her who I was before she would let me walk up to the door.”

Word gets out, and that’s OKAY with me! BTW no one sneaks up on the terrier I have in the house, he has ears, well……like a terrier and barks when someone strange is in the area of the house. The outside dogs also alert to other dogs, coons and strangers as well. Different barks for different critters.

So I’m well protected I think and sleep okay at night! Knowing that the terrier is on the foot of the bed and if the outside dogs change their barks I’ll wake up.

Ox Drover

Silver, Yep, Wyatt was my hero. Did you hear about the guy who was tried for shooting a gun slinger, they couldn’t tell if the guy had been shot in the back of the head with the bullet coming out the front or in the eye with the bullet coming out the back of the head.

The judge thought about it and said, “In the first case, good judgment, and in the second case, good shooting.” Banged gavel and said “Case closed.”


I hear ya OX!

I had a GSD and she was amazing. Miss that dog. If she didn’t like somebody in the house, it always panned out that there was a reason I shouldn’t.

I’m going to get another one. Female. They are THE BEST.

No point n wasting words on a SPATH. Having the reutation of not being someone who talks a lot just for the sake of making noise is good. too.


LOL OX, Case Closed…..HAHAHAHA

Ox Drover

What is the saying, “walk quietly and carry a big gun?” or was that STICK? Oh, well, I like the gun better, it seems more intimidating than a stick. LOL The funny thing is that no one who knows me has ever been afraid of me in the least except the psychopaths. DUH!? And frankly my P-son would like to think he is “tougher” and “smarter” than dear old mom, but I’m not sure he really believes he’s up to that job. I do think he has some fear/respect for me in some ways. Doesn’t mean he wouldn’t tackle me if he could, but just that he knows I won’t be a PUSHOVER. He also knows that C won’t be a pushover and that D is not a pushover either, so in spite of the fact that he is impulsive and too brash, I also think that he is basically one that wants to be the WINNER and isn’t going to “fight a circle saw” unless he thinks he has an EDGE….the girl he killed was unarmed and helpless, so he is not really BRAVE. He has learned to fight in prison and I’ve been told that he will “belly up to” the biggest meanest gang member in the joint, but he had to do that or be repeatedly raped or turned out as a whore/slave because he was a SMALL white guy when he went to the joint the first and second time. It was fight or die for him, and he learned to fight and keep up a front for survival in there.

But at the same time I can’t see him setting himself up to get shot either. Hes a sneaky coward at heart in spite of all the bravado.


Not sure I’d want to have to take that test myself.

I am sure the insult had to learn to be that way. Sure he’s living that way now.

I don’t confidence that he’d have that respect for me. I;m just hoping he’s not of a mind to be bothered to do what he’d have to to find me.

Ox Drover

Well, by “respect” I mean like I RESPECT a copper head or any other pit viper. I know the damage they can do so I sure don’t want to step on one. Not respect like I would have for a person with a real conscience or a moral compass, just respect in the way you know something can hurt you. He knows I’m no push over!

He has conned me in the past, and I am sure he laughed his arse off about it (I’ve read the letters he wrote to his partners) but you know, at the same time, I know he knows now that neither C, or D or me will EVER AGAIN BE CONNED.

The last time D and I saw him in prison, when I went to the bathroom, he looked at D and D said his face got blank and his eyes looked like a reptile’s and he said to D, “I know you, you are just like me!” (meaning we think that he thought D was also a predator like him.)

Before he sent the Trojan horse into our family, he had tried to convince D to be his TH-controller by “smarmying” him up, but D wouldn’t have any of that, so P-son, thought they were competing predators. But he does know we are not push overs and it is WAR not politics now. The con is over.

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